Australian Politics Forum - public transport subsidies

gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #15 - Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:18pm

freediver wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:13pm:

Quote:

You KNOW I'm only referring to services provided within our State,....Or country

Fine. Lord Howe Island will have to do. Or how about a free trip to Fraser at least? It's not like it would not be used. Why should people have to pay full price to get their enourmous 4WD's onto that beach when the government could foot the bill for us?

Quote:

Let's not be silly....

So you were joking about ignoring the cost?

Quote:

why is 'social' transport that big a difference???

Because we consider it immoral to let let people die from preventable or treatable illness because they are poor, or to deny children a basic education because their parents are poor, or to let the poor starve in the street. However, I see no moral dillemma in denying poor people a free or discount holiday payed for by taxpayers. The justification for public transport is economic, not moral.

Or to put it more simply, cost does matter.

Oh come on...which STATE controls international travel???

How does NSW Transport have ANYTHING to do with travel to Lord Howe Island????

Sydney to Melbourne...OK that's believable...But Sydney to Lord Howe or Christmas Island or Pitcarin???

You're just being overly picky and silly....

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47444 At my desk.	Re: public transport subsidies Reply #16 - Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:19pm Quote: Sydney to Melbourne...OK that's believable...But Sydney to Lord Howe or Christmas Island or Pitcarin??? So you would be happy with the government giving me a free holiday in Melbourne? Once the weather warms up of course.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #17 - Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:25pm

freediver wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:19pm:

Quote:

Sydney to Melbourne...OK that's believable...But Sydney to Lord Howe or Christmas Island or Pitcarin???

So you would be happy with the government giving me a free holiday in Melbourne? Once the weather warms up of course.

No,but I'd be happy with the Government giving you a 'subsidised' trip to Melbourne......I'd even be happy with the NSW Government paying 1/3rd of your fare to Melbourne...

However...I'd be even happier with the Government paying 2/3rds of your costs for YOU to travel within NSW on the bus system, on a day to day basis....while you're going to work or school, on a monday to friday basis.....

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gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #18 - Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:27pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:25pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:19pm:

Quote:

Sydney to Melbourne...OK that's believable...But Sydney to Lord Howe or Christmas Island or Pitcarin???

So you would be happy with the government giving me a free holiday in Melbourne? Once the weather warms up of course.

If you pay state taxes within NSW, I don't have a problem with you receiving a subsidy on your government travel, within NSW....

No,but I'd be happy with the Government giving you a 'subsidised' trip to Melbourne......I'd even be happy with the NSW Government paying 1/3rd of your fare to Melbourne...

However...I'd be even happier with the Government paying 2/3rds of your costs for YOU to travel within NSW on the bus system, on a day to day basis....while you're going to work or school, on a monday to friday basis.....

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Bobbythebat

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47444 At my desk.	Re: public transport subsidies Reply #19 - Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 8:24pm Quote: I'd even be happy with the NSW Government paying 1/3rd of your fare to Melbourne. Can you explain why? Are cheap airfares some kind of fundamental human right? Where does the 1/3 number come from? What else should the government subsidise? Bread? Water? Beer? Toothbrushes?
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gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #20 - Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 9:49pm

freediver wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 8:24pm:

Quote:

I'd even be happy with the NSW Government paying 1/3rd of your fare to Melbourne.

Can you explain why? Are cheap airfares some kind of fundamental human right? Where does the 1/3 number come from?

What else should the government subsidise? Bread? Water? Beer? Toothbrushes?

LOL no, of course not....although the cost of water is, in fact already subisised....just as Electricity USED to be, before the Government privatised Country Energy and AGL...

You do understand that ANY 'socialised' or Government owned/controlled service or company is subsidised???

Public Hospitals, Public Schools, Public Roads etc???

Why should PUBLIC Transport be different???

We, the tax payers, own the public hospitals, so our tax dollars are used to provide cheap, and (supposedly) quality health care at a reduced(subsidised) cost, for the 'poorer' members of society.

We, the tax payers, own the public schools, so our tax dollars are used to provide quality education at a reduced rate, to the families that cannot afford $2000 per term for a 'private' school...

And we , the tax payers, own the public transport system, so our tax dollars are used to subsidise a mass transport system at a reduced cost, so that it DOESN'T cost $10 to travel from Chatswood to Wynyard, by bus, on a service where there's 1 bus per hour......

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Hlysnan

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #21 - Jun 24^th, 2010 at 3:36pm

I'm opposed to transport subsidies. Even though I don't drive a car and rarely use my bicycle for the purpose of reaching a certain destination, and so my main mode of transport is train and bus, I think it's unethical that the government uses everyone's tax moneys to pay for something not everyone uses and by definition is not a public good.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47444 At my desk.	Re: public transport subsidies Reply #22 - Jun 24^th, 2010 at 8:58pm Quote: Why should PUBLIC Transport be different??? All goods and services should be left to the private sector unless there is a good reason not to. I already explained why those other services are different.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #23 - Jun 25^th, 2010 at 3:20pm

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2010 at 8:58pm:

Quote:

Why should PUBLIC Transport be different???

All goods and services should be left to the private sector unless there is a good reason not to. I already explained why those other services are different.

Hmmm I think we're talking about different areas of public transport.

The OP is about CityRail, which is the local commuter service.....the 'holiday' or long distance rail travel in QLD is Traveltrain.

If it's like NSW, then the local is StateRail and the long distance is CountryLink....From looking at the Countrylink site, I don't think it is all that subsidised.....Wagga to Sydney is $62 one way...

So I'm not sure the long distance is as heavily subsidised as the commuter service......

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47444 At my desk.	Re: public transport subsidies Reply #24 - Jun 26^th, 2010 at 12:27pm The one with a per passenger subsidy more than a business class flight to Vanuatu is a regional service. The total may be less than commuter travel, just because there are less passengers.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #25 - Jun 26^th, 2010 at 2:24pm

"Journeys on the regional Traveltrain network, which carries significantly fewer people, cost taxpayers an average of $329 per trip, according to Budget papers.

By comparison the subsidy for the southeast's bus network is $2.18 per trip, up from $2.07 last year.

On January 1, the Government introduced up to 40 per cent increases on paper tickets and up to 20 per cent rises in the cost of go card fares, with plans for annual increases of 15 per cent a year from 2011 until 2014.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan said on announcing the fare increases, that they would reduce the per-trip subsidy paid out by the Government.

"For every dollar that a passenger spends on a fare, taxpayers spend three in subsidy and that ratio needs to decrease rather than increase in the next five years," she said in October last year."

You mean this bit?

So for a whole train on a Traveltrain run, the complete subsidy is $329.

Ok so if there are 100 passengers, it works out to $3.29 per passenger...

That's not that extreme an amount is it?

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47444 At my desk.	Re: public transport subsidies Reply #26 - Jun 26^th, 2010 at 3:07pm I thought it was per passenger.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #27 - Jun 26^th, 2010 at 4:00pm

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2010 at 3:07pm:

I thought it was per passenger.

Well as I understand it....it says 'passenger trip'....to an ex bus driver(like me) a 'trip' is the actual act of driving the bus from point to point...

I'm imagining a rail passenger trip mean a journey (by the train itself) which carries passengers as opposed to a rail freight trip....which carries cargo instead of people....

I'm only basing that on the NSW costings, I freely admit QLD might be different.., but I can't see it being THAT much more.....

Here in NSW, a one way rail journey from Wagga Wagga to Sydney, economy full fare, is $62......a one way plane trip, Wagga Wagga to Sydney, again economy full fare, is $109 dollars...

Now obviously the Airline isn't subsidised....so the 'subsidy' per passenger on the rail trip must be less than $47 .....
Otherwise, it would mean that a train, carrying 300 passengers costs more for a run from Wagga to Sydney than a brand new jet aircraft carrying 40 passengers...

And despite the belief of that Politican who said commercial pilots were only glorifed bus drivers, I'm pretty sure the costs to fly a plane from Wagga to Sydney are a whole lot more than cost of running a passenger train the same distance.....

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freediver

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #28 - Jun 26^th, 2010 at 8:00pm

Quote:

And despite the belief of that Politican who said commercial pilots were only glorifed bus drivers, I'm pretty sure the costs to fly a plane from Wagga to Sydney are a whole lot more than cost of running a passenger train the same distance.....

Planes don't need tracks.

Have you ever wondered why air travel is so much more common than train travel for any serious distance?

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gizmo_2655

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Re: public transport subsidies
Reply #29 - Jun 27^th, 2010 at 4:35pm

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2010 at 8:00pm:

Quote:

And despite the belief of that Politican who said commercial pilots were only glorifed bus drivers, I'm pretty sure the costs to fly a plane from Wagga to Sydney are a whole lot more than cost of running a passenger train the same distance.....

Planes don't need tracks.

Have you ever wondered why air travel is so much more common than train travel for any serious distance?

Mostly because of TIME I think....

6 hours to Sydney by train and 90 minutes to Sydney by plane....

The tracks are already there.....so they're sort of like roads.....

But I still think pilots get paid a lot more for a trip than train drivers...

A commercial pilot makes up to $101, 130 per year and a train driver makes about $56,700....

The running costs for a flight over the Wagga-Sydney run would be at least twice that a train would cost over the same trip..

Just on fuel and insurance......

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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