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Ban the Burqa (Read 75441 times)
John S
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Ban the Burqa
Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:15am
 
I have read a lot of stuff on the net were people want the barqa ban in Australia.

As the barqa is part of the Islam religion you would have to change the Australia Constitution first. It states in the Constitution that we have freedom of religion.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #1 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:41am
 
What does the Constitution actually state? Do you have it handy?

This is what I could quickly find.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/religion.html

Quote:
Australia has no official state religion and people are free to practise any religion they choose, as long they obey the law. Australians are also free not to have a religion.

Australia is a predominantly Christian country, with around 64 per cent of all Australians identifying as Christians. However, most other major religious faiths are also practised, reflecting Australia’s culturally diverse society.

Religious freedom is safeguarded by section 116 of the Australian Constitution, which prohibits the federal government from making any law establishing any religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. Individuals are free to express a diversity of views, as long as they do not incite religious hatred.



While I personally find the Burqa draconian and reflective of a misogynistic culture. I don't think it requires banning at a general level at this stage. I certainly think there are areas that are sensitive for security reasons where it should not be allowed. Areas where identification is a requirement for instance.
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« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:47am by locutius »  

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #2 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:10am
 
Whether the Burqa is actually worn for religious reasons is a contentious issue. Even among Muslims.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #3 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:28am
 


islams not "just a religion"
the burqa's not "just as religious adornment"

try wearing budgie snugglers in saudi, or pashing your wife there.

the burqa's an affront to our society by those that dislike us.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #4 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:43am
 
It's worn for cultural reasons, which comes down to the same thing.  Certainly most Muslims don't require it.

The question is - if they banned the burka, could you get an exemption for fancy dress parties and stage shows?  

I mean, what would be the purpose of banning it? - because it demeans women? What about strip clubs? Should we ban them for the same reason?

- and what other clothing would they want to ban next?

I reckon it should be illegal to wear shorts with Wellington boots. They just look silly. They are probably unaustralian too, whatever that means (but it sounds really stern and rightwing)

Now such dress is probably not un-new zealand. In fact, I believe that in downtown Hamilton this year, the really fashionable look is to wear green hairy socks neatly folded over the tops of your welly boots (a stylish fair isle jumper - and a beanie adds that je ne sais quoi) . It's a real pull in discos I believe.
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« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:51am by muso »  

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #5 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:49am
 
Quote:
I mean, what would be the purpose of banning it?


To stop people going around masked in public, in their normal daily lives.
Nobody is trying to ban head scarves, or those funny hats that look like a very furry alien space ship has docked on an orthodox jews head, it is solely about the very rude and confronting issue of needing to deal with people who hide their faces in public.
We communicate with our expressions as much or often more, than verbally, so it is just not a part of how we want our society to be.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #6 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:53am
 


What I don't get, is that some people are soooooo passionate about what (and why) others do or don't wear...

FFS, what's their hangup and/or agenda!?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #7 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:55am
 
locutius wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:41am:
While I personally find the Burqa draconian and reflective of a misogynistic culture. I don't think it requires banning at a general level at this stage. I certainly think there are areas that are sensitive for security reasons where it should not be allowed. Areas where identification is a requirement for instance.



Ditto!


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #8 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:04am
 
Quote:
Whether the Burqa is actually worn for religious reasons is a contentious issue. Even among Muslims


No it isn't. Women who wear it do so because they believe that the Quran tells them to. Men who force women to wear it do so for the same reason. The only contentious issue is whether it's compulsory or not. Most Muslims think not, which is why we don't have thousands of burka wearing women.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #9 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:11am
 
Quote:
Individuals are free to express a diversity of views, as long as they do not incite religious hatred


That quote from Locutious' post is interesting, as someone who ridicules religion a lot, I would love to see this tested, because the absolute worst transgressors against religious freedom is, religions.

The way they have turned spirituality into a team sport where the obsessive supporters assure you that their team is superior in every way, and your team sucks so badly that you will burn in hell for eternity for supporting them, has always seemed the most flagrant transgression against religious freedom that there is.

I think the problem arises because what they want religious freedom to mean is it being the right of the religious to impose their views and standards across the whole society.

To which I say, stick it up yer' ar--,   jumper.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #10 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:45am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:49am:
Quote:
I mean, what would be the purpose of banning it?


To stop people going around masked in public, in their normal daily lives.
Nobody is trying to ban head scarves, or those funny hats that look like a very furry alien space ship has docked on an orthodox jews head, it is solely about the very rude and confronting issue of needing to deal with people who hide their faces in public.
We communicate with our expressions as much or often more, than verbally, so it is just not a part of how we want our society to be.



So you'd ban it because people find it confronting. What about facial piercings? You could make exactly the same argument there. Some people find excessive facial piercings to be extremely offensive and confronting.

My own view is that if people want to be confronting, then it's a personal choice they make, and we should allow people the freedom to wear what they want (including nothing).
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 12:05pm
 
Put a bag over your head muso.
Hide any outward signs that might give people a clue as to who you are, or what your intentions may be, then go about your daily life as normal.
Go to the shop and buy a paper, catch the train, go to work, and see how people react to an anonymous person they can get no signals from.

I am sick and tired of people demanding the right to be offensive idiots because there god told them to.

Going around masked in public is unacceptable, simple, end of story, and the fact that that these clowns claim they are doing it for some ridiculous god concept merely compounds their idiocy.

At the moment they are a tiny minority, but we need to make sure that even that tiny minority is not given the freedom to diminish our right to feel safe and comfortable on our own streets.

The argument about piercings is ridiculous, people with piercings can still smile, or scowl, raise an eyebrow in question, or choose to look passive or aggressive, and even with piercings we can assess all those things from seeing their faces.

That is all we want, a society where people do not mask their faces, they can where purple polka dot full body condoms if they wish, so long as they have the decency to show their face in public, instead of parading in their portable hideouts which is their way of giving the society we love the finger.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #12 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 12:11pm
 

those with facial piercings (which I dislike) have no wish to impose their ideals upon us all.
they do not wish for us all to be likewise pierced and follow the "great needled piercer" whom started their piercing movement.

piercees are in no way a threat to our way of life.
we're "allowed" to draw cartoons of pierced people

this is not the way with burqa wearers
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #13 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 12:42pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 12:11pm:
those with facial piercings (which I dislike) have no wish to impose their ideals upon us all.
they do not wish for us all to be likewise pierced and follow the "great needled piercer" whom started their piercing movement.

piercees are in no way a threat to our way of life.
we're "allowed" to draw cartoons of pierced people

this is not the way with burqa wearers


You're right, SC - the insidious burqa-wearring movement has a plan to ensure all Australian women are properly covered by 2015. They plan to do this through a systematic campaign of burqa terror, including infomercials on daytime TV, product placement on shows like Masterchef, and burqa designs shown off on the catwalks at Fashion Week.

Particularly diabolic is the "invisible burqa," a garment where the eyes are covered, but the woman's body can be seen.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #14 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:24pm
 
Am I allowed to wear my batman costume in public?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #15 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:32pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:24pm:
Am I allowed to wear my batman costume in public?


No. It's disgusting wearing your underwear outside your pants.  Tongue
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #16 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 5:42pm
 
It has nothing to do with freedom of religion. It is about freedom to wear what you want. Do you really want to take that away?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #17 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 8:53pm
 
locutius wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:41am:
What does the Constitution actually state? Do you have it handy?

This is what I could quickly find.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/religion.html

Quote:
Australia has no official state religion and people are free to practise any religion they choose, as long they obey the law. Australians are also free not to have a religion.

Australia is a predominantly Christian country, with around 64 per cent of all Australians identifying as Christians. However, most other major religious faiths are also practised, reflecting Australia’s culturally diverse society.

Religious freedom is safeguarded by section 116 of the Australian Constitution, which prohibits the federal government from making any law establishing any religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. Individuals are free to express a diversity of views, as long as they do not incite religious hatred.



While I personally find the Burqa draconian and reflective of a misogynistic culture. I don't think it requires banning at a general level at this stage. I certainly think there are areas that are sensitive for security reasons where it should not be allowed. Areas where identification is a requirement for instance.


sorry locutius i took so long to get back to you, but this is what I found in the constitution

116. The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #18 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:00pm
 
The garment should not be banned. However, obscuring one's identity by any means in public spaces, on religious grounds should be disallowed. Turn it around - if no religion is to be established, then the public space (public thoroughfare, school, offices, courts etc) are also not to be fragmented by claims of special religious privileges either.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #19 - Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:45pm
 
muso wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:24pm:
Am I allowed to wear my batman costume in public?


No. It's disgusting wearing your underwear outside your pants.  Tongue


If they can wear a burqua then I can wear my batman costume
with my underwear on the outside - fair is fair
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #20 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:33am
 

It is a bloody mask for christs sake.

Nobody is demanding they wear micro bikinis and pole dance on the steps of the town hall, we are just asking that they show enough respect for the society they have chosen to be a part of, to meet it face to face.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #21 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:52am
 
What about those guys who wear their thong beach wear like Borat?
Is that acceptable in the main street?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #22 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:03am
 
This just in:


Mr Nile introduced his private member's bill, seeking to ban the wearing of the burqa and other face veils in public, shortly after 8pm (AEST) on Tuesday.

[Greens first off the rank shouting 'racists' ]
...
Mr Nile has denied the bill is racist, saying his concern lay with issues of security and women's rights.

The bill has been adjourned until September 2010.




Watch the Christian Democratic vote increase in the outer suburbs at the March '11 state elections.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #23 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:46am
 
Soren wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:03am:
This just in:


Mr Nile introduced his private member's bill, seeking to ban the wearing of the burqa and other face veils in public, shortly after 8pm (AEST) on Tuesday.

[Greens first off the rank shouting 'racists' ]
...
Mr Nile has denied the bill is racist, saying his concern lay with issues of security and women's rights.

The bill has been adjourned until September 2010.




Watch the Christian Democratic vote increase in the outer suburbs at the March '11 state elections.




Forgive me if I'm wrong, but since when has Fred Nile ever been pro-women's rights!?

Has he been as vocal, about the right to CHOOSE what to do with their insides (i.e. contraception and abortion) as he is about what they wear on the outside of their bodies!?

Has he been as vocal, about the rights of women to receive equal incomes and Superannuation subsidies, to achieve financial independence and acquire equal wealth over the lifespan!?

If anyone can find any evidence of his staunch pro-women advocacy in the past, I'd be keen to see it...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #24 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:54am
 


Equitist wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:46am:
Soren wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:03am:
This just in:


Mr Nile introduced his private member's bill, seeking to ban the wearing of the burqa and other face veils in public, shortly after 8pm (AEST) on Tuesday.

[Greens first off the rank shouting 'racists' ]
...
Mr Nile has denied the bill is racist, saying his concern lay with issues of security and women's rights.

The bill has been adjourned until September 2010.




Watch the Christian Democratic vote increase in the outer suburbs at the March '11 state elections.




Forgive me if I'm wrong, but since when has Fred Nile ever been pro-women's rights!?

Has he been as vocal, about the right to CHOOSE what to do with their insides (i.e. contraception and abortion) as he is about what they wear on the outside of their bodies!?

Has he been as vocal, about the rights of women to receive equal incomes and Superannuation subsidies, to achieve financial independence and acquire equal wealth over the lifespan!?

If anyone can find any evidence of his staunch pro-women advocacy in the past, I'd be keen to see it...




FFS, Ol' Fred Nile has even actively campaigned against the rights of women who choose to escape dysfunctional and/or violent domestic situations (with their kids)...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #25 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:01am
 

thy - you may well be rightere. I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.

however, your argument is a fallacy
ie, fred niles history has no bearing on this topic.
by proving the man "wrong" in the past, it has no bearing on this proposal
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #26 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:20am
 
Bobby. wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:45pm:
muso wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:24pm:
Am I allowed to wear my batman costume in public?


No. It's disgusting wearing your underwear outside your pants.  Tongue


If they can wear a burqua then I can wear my batman costume
with my underwear on the outside - fair is fair


Not only do I think Batman costumes are "way cool" it should be our National Dress. The new Monaro should be ..... you guessed it, a fully combat ready BatMobile.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #27 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:22am
 

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:01am:
thy - you may well be rightere. I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.

however, your argument is a fallacy
ie, fred niles history has no bearing on this topic.
by proving the man "wrong" in the past, it has no bearing on this proposal


On the contrary, based on previous form, Fred Nile's agenda is far more likely driven by religious bigotry against an opposing faith, than it is a concern for either 'security' or 'women's rights'!

If he has a problem with Muslims per se, then he should bloody well say so - rather than hide his true agenda under false pretenses which contradict his previous anti-women's rights pet projects...


PS I will make no secret that I despise Fred Nile - primarily on the grounds that he's a patently draconian and chauvanistic bigot!  That said, I also point out that: I find many Muslim (and other religious and political) leaders equally repulsive for similar reasons; and I do NOT support the external imposition of dress rules on women, however, I support the right of individual women to CHOOSE to cover up - or not!

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #28 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:41am
 

thy - his agenda could well be driven by a religious bigotry against an opposing faith.
that's immaterial to what his proposal should be judged on.
the proposal has to be judged/voted on its own merits.

play the ball, not the man

yoou are aware of the study of fallacies ?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #29 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:41am
 
Soren wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:03am:
This just in:


Mr Nile introduced his private member's bill, seeking to ban the wearing of the burqa and other face veils in public, shortly after 8pm (AEST) on Tuesday.

[Greens first off the rank shouting 'racists' ]
...
.


Hard to know who is worse!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #30 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:47am
 
Equitist wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:22am:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:01am:
thy - you may well be rightere. I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.

however, your argument is a fallacy
ie, fred niles history has no bearing on this topic.
by proving the man "wrong" in the past, it has no bearing on this proposal


On the contrary, based on previous form, Fred Nile's agenda is far more likely driven by religious bigotry against an opposing faith, than it is a concern for either 'security' or 'women's rights'!

If he has a problem with Muslims per se, then he should bloody well say so - rather than hide his true agenda under false pretenses which contradict his previous anti-women's rights pet projects...


PS I will make no secret that I despise Fred Nile - primarily on the grounds that he's a patently draconian and chauvanistic bigot!  That said, I also point out that: I find many Muslim (and other religious and political) leaders equally repulsive for similar reasons; and I do NOT support the external imposition of dress rules on women, however, I support the right of individual women to CHOOSE to cover up - or not!



Absolutely spot on!!!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #31 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:49am
 
Equitist wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:22am:
If he has a problem with Muslims per se, then he should bloody well say so -





Check his party's name and take a wild guess. 
Also:


Nile wants stop to Muslim migrants
Simon Kearney From: The Australian March 12, 2007 THE most successful Christian political party in NSW is calling for a moratorium on Muslim immigration to Australia, replacing them with persecuted Christians from the Middle East.

Christian Democratic Party leader Fred Nile, the longest-serving MP in the NSW upper house, who made an unsuccessful bid for the federal Senate in 2004, said the moratorium should be in place to allow a study of the effects of Muslim migration.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #32 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:12am
 
That's not actually the point Thy was making by the way I read it.

Fact is Fred missed his true calling by 700 years. Fred is no friend to many more than just the Muslims..
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #33 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:13am
 


Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:41am:
thy - his agenda could well be driven by a religious bigotry against an opposing faith.
that's immaterial to what his proposal should be judged on.
the proposal has to be judged/voted on its own merits.

play the ball, not the man

yoou are aware of the study of fallacies ?




Err...ummnnn...perhaps I failed to explain...that I am rallying against the bizarre fallacy that the chauvanistic bigot Fred Nile is concerned about women's rights, period!


PS I also point out the irony that he habitually plays the wo/man and that his agenda is anything but 'open', 'free' and 'democratic' - it is fundamentally narrow and OPPRESSIVE!

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #34 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:19am
 


Soren wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:49am:
Equitist wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:22am:
If he has a problem with Muslims per se, then he should bloody well say so -





Check his party's name and take a wild guess.  
Also:


Nile wants stop to Muslim migrants
Simon Kearney From: The Australian March 12, 2007 THE most successful Christian political party in NSW is calling for a moratorium on Muslim immigration to Australia, replacing them with persecuted Christians from the Middle East.

Christian Democratic Party leader Fred Nile, the longest-serving MP in the NSW upper house, who made an unsuccessful bid for the federal Senate in 2004, said the moratorium should be in place to allow a study of the effects of Muslim migration.




LOL...I, for one, would denounce his choice of party name as patently (even paternalistically) oxymoronic!

That said, I do not disagree with the gist of what you stated here (except that to formally impose such a policy would be inherently divisive and largely unwarranted as regards Burqa-wearing): -

Quote:


The garment should not be banned. However, obscuring one's identity by any means in public spaces, on religious grounds should be disallowed. Turn it around - if no religion is to be established, then the public space (public thoroughfare, school, offices, courts etc) are also not to be fragmented by claims of special religious privileges either.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #35 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:56am
 
I have no problem, in getting rid of the Burka, especially if we get rid a few other trappings, such as the Monks Abbott, I mean Habit and the Judges robes etc.

Actually, the Burka, from outside perspective, seems more an issue of retention of power, by men over women!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #36 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:02pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:33am:
It is a bloody mask for christs sake.

Nobody is demanding they wear micro bikinis and pole dance on the steps of the town hall, we are just asking that they show enough respect for the society they have chosen to be a part of, to meet it face to face.


It's not about wearing a mask. At least be honest and say it like Sprint has.  You object to the fact that they are Muslims.

This ban on 'masks' that you want to legislate. How are you going to enforce it? What about people of other religions, such as certain Christians who wear masks?  What about halloween, or fancy dress parties? Should it be illegal to wear anything that masks your identity during street parades?  - or would you need a special licence to wear a mask?

What you are seeking to do is to restrict the freedom of people. In that respect, you're no better than the Reverend Fred W Nile (W for Wowser)

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #37 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:04pm
 

muso wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:02pm:
mozzaok wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:33am:
It is a bloody mask for christs sake.

Nobody is demanding they wear micro bikinis and pole dance on the steps of the town hall, we are just asking that they show enough respect for the society they have chosen to be a part of, to meet it face to face.


It's not about wearing a mask. At least be honest and say it like Sprint has.  You object to the fact that they are Muslims.

This ban on 'masks' that you want to legislate. How are you going to enforce it? What about people of other religions, such as certain Christians who wear masks?  What about halloween, or fancy dress parties? Should it be illegal to wear anything that masks your identity during street parades?  - or would you need a special licence to wear a mask?

What you are seeking to do is to restrict the freedom of people. In that respect, you're no better than the Reverend Fred W Nile (W for Wowser)



...


Cute kid, poignant pic!


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #38 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 1:22pm
 
It's not what you think it is. It's a traditional religious festival in Spain or Portugal.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #39 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 2:41pm
 

muso wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 1:22pm:
It's not what you think it is. It's a traditional religious festival in Spain or Portugal.



Perhaps so - but my comments stand!?


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #40 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:11pm
 

muso - Quote:
It's not about wearing a mask. At least be honest and say it like Sprint has.  You object to the fact that they are Muslims.

This ban on 'masks' that you want to legislate. How are you going to enforce it? What about people of other religions, such as certain Christians who wear masks?  What about halloween, or fancy dress parties? Should it be illegal to wear anything that masks your identity during street parades?  - or would you need a special licence to wear a mask?


yes, it's because muslims do not assimilate.
in the most tolerant countries in europe they are banning minarets and burquas.
muslims are a problem.
they want to take our secular democracy and turn it into islam.
no other belief has the goal of taking over countries and making everyone subservient to their own belief.
it's not jast a religion, it is a legal, system, it is the cultural ways, it;s the clothes tyou wear, it's public beheadings, it's state control, it's what foot you put on the floor first every morning.

islam can bugger off.

/rant off/

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Modern Classic Right Wing
 
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #41 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:25pm
 
Sprint - This one is for you. (Watch it until the end)


http://www.fashionising.com/pictures/p--Liaison-Dangereuse-Lingerie-Commercial-4...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #42 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:32pm
 
muso wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:02pm:
What about people of other religions, such as certain Christians who wear masks?  What about halloween, or fancy dress parties? Should it be illegal to wear anything that masks your identity during street parades?  - or would you need a special licence to wear a mask?

What you are seeking to do is to restrict the freedom of people. In that respect, you're no better than the Reverend Fred W Nile (W for Wowser)

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20070406/wwip0407/SPAINH...



Are you serioiusly suggesting that you are unable to distinguish between the burqa/niqab and all the 'what abouts' that you have listed? You are really saying that to your mind a burqa/niqab is categorically the same thing as fancy dress?

How about some clear thinking instead of the reflexive equivocation? Don't kid yourself and us.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #43 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:36pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:32pm:
muso wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:02pm:
What about people of other religions, such as certain Christians who wear masks?  What about halloween, or fancy dress parties? Should it be illegal to wear anything that masks your identity during street parades?  - or would you need a special licence to wear a mask?

What you are seeking to do is to restrict the freedom of people. In that respect, you're no better than the Reverend Fred W Nile (W for Wowser)

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20070406/wwip0407/SPAINH...



Are you serioiusly suggesting that you are unable to distinguish between the burqa/niqab and all the 'what abouts' that you have listed? You are really saying that to your mind a burqa/niqab is categorically the same thing as fancy dress?

How about some clear thinking instead of the reflexive equivocation? Don't kid yourself and us.


That was in response to Mozz trying to kid us that it was just for security reasons (the mask argument). We all know the real reason.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #44 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:54pm
 
muso wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:25pm:


Nice one muso.....

I don't have a problem with the burqa, per se...but there do need to be changes made, for 'security' reasons......like there were with motorcycle helmets, balaclavas etc...

There are SOME places where wearing a face covering can be a problem, like banks, some shops and the RTA licence photos/driving a car.....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #45 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 4:03pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:54pm:
muso wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 3:25pm:


Nice one muso.....

I don't have a problem with the burqa, per se...but there do need to be changes made, for 'security' reasons......like there were with motorcycle helmets, balaclavas etc...

There are SOME places where wearing a face covering can be a problem, like banks, some shops and the RTA licence photos/driving a car.....



... and ...er...interacting with other people.

Security is only part of it, the smokescreen part. Decency has nothing to do with it. I think wearing the niqab/burqa in the west is a deliberate insult. It is a sign of hostility, of excluson, of rejection. I find it offensive.




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #46 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 4:16pm
 
Quote:
Security is only part of it, the smokescreen part. Decency has nothing to do with it. I think wearing the niqab/burqa in the west is a deliberate insult. It is a sign of hostility, of excluson, of rejection. I find it offensive.


Then that's your problem to deal with. Like it or not, Australia is still (and will hopefully remain despite idiots like Nile) a nation that supports freedom of religious expression.

Muso, I love that commercial. I remember it caused quite a bit of controversy for a number of reasons, but it's great.

Sprint, it's not just Muslims feeling the brunt of Europe's religious intolerance. Jews, Asians and Indians are all victims of increasing violence in Germany and Sweden, among other places.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #47 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 4:22pm
 
Unfortunately, 'we' Westerners actively and selfishly promoted and embraced globalisation while the going was good - with little regard for the inevitable consequences...

'We' should therefore not hypocritically blame others for the collective reckless short-sightedness of our Western powermonger forebears and peers...


Hint: there was always going to be a severe price paid, in the long-term, for systematic Western cultural, political, religious, military and economic imperialism - and associated exploitation!


Hello! I, for one, am not remotely surprised!

The sooner, that our Western leaders grow up and admit to past errors of judgement and action, the sooner that humanity can start bracing itself for the environmental consequences of worshipping the inherently amoral, insatiable, wasteful and destructive 'Growth Fairy' and his evil twin, the 'Good Greedy Witch of the West'...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #48 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 4:34pm
 


Let's face it, folks...the problems faced today in the Western world (and elsewhere) are complex - and it is patently ridiculous, to believe that: the divisive and bigoted act, of proposing to ban the Burqa, is going to make a positive impact...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #49 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 5:39pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 4:16pm:
Quote:
Security is only part of it, the smokescreen part. Decency has nothing to do with it. I think wearing the niqab/burqa in the west is a deliberate insult. It is a sign of hostility, of excluson, of rejection. I find it offensive.


Then that's your problem to deal with. Like it or not, Australia is still (and will hopefully remain despite idiots like Nile) a nation that supports freedom of religious expression.



Do you also support freedom of expression? Or only religious expression?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #50 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 5:47pm
 
Mostly.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #51 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 6:09pm
 
locutius wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:20am:
Bobby. wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:45pm:
muso wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:32pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 4:24pm:
Am I allowed to wear my batman costume in public?


No. It's disgusting wearing your underwear outside your pants.  Tongue


If they can wear a burqua then I can wear my batman costume
with my underwear on the outside - fair is fair


Not only do I think Batman costumes are "way cool" it should be our National Dress. The new Monaro should be ..... you guessed it, a fully combat ready BatMobile.


Alright then.
I will be wearing my batman costume in Burke Street Melbourne. Grin
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #52 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 6:13pm
 
But if you wore your underpants outside your pants, wouldn't your pants become your underpants?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #53 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 9:58pm
 
A propos scanties - get Easy Virtue out on video, it's a hoot:




Now there's a misunderstanding...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #54 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:06pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 5:47pm:
Mostly.


As long as it does not confront the religious expression of non-western religions, you mean?

Fred Nile-y kind of religious expression, or jew-y religious expression are fair game but we must respect the oppressed Muslims and other thirdy-worldy oppressed types? Or do you think all free expression about religion is off and Nile as well as all the red sea pederstrians have every right to demand the implementation of their religious aims?

Or undecided - mostly?



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #55 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:11pm
 
How you love to twist things, Soren. I'd oppose a bill that tried to ban the yarmulka or crucifix necklaces too.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #56 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:21pm
 
How big of you.

Tell us that you think a pendant on a necklace, or something to cover your bald patch, are  the same as covering your entire body (women only, of course). Go on, tell us that it's all much of a muchness, really. Go on.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #57 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:34pm
 
Quote:
Fred Nile-y kind of religious expression, or jew-y religious expression are fair game


My post was in response to that.

You go on and on about freeing women from oppression and giving them their rights, but what you appear unable to understand is that many women choose to wear the burqa. By trying to take that choice away from them, you attempt to violate those rights.

At least be honest about why you want it banned. It's quite obvious you're not motivated by the oppression of Muslim women, but by a hatred of Islam and it's adherents.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #58 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:42pm
 
Could his hatred of Islam be motivated by the ways in which it circumscribes the ways its adherents are able to live their lives?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #59 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm
 
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #60 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:49pm
 
Even if each burqa wearer was making a free personal choice, choices have context and meaning.

In this society, the meaning of the burqa/niqab is segregation, acceptance of religiously sanctioned second-class status. If they really freely choose to demonstrate, in the public sphere,  their acceptance of inferiority, then in this society I am free to oblige them and TREAT them as second class. I am not a friggin' beduin in the Sahara, so I don't observe their tribal social customs in this society and I certinly owe them no respect and don't have to pretend that I respect their 'freely' chosen self-abnegation. If they have so much self-contempt, I can at least do them the service of going along and also have contempt for them.
Not everyone in the Star Wars bar scene is owed respect.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #61 - Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:53pm
 
Quote:
In this society, the meaning of the burqa/niqab is segregation, acceptance of religiously sanctioned second-class status


No, that's what it means to you.

Quote:
I am free to oblige them and TREAT them as second class


How? By denying them their right to dress how they like?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #62 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:00am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.


At least, by his reasoning, the loss of freedom by having to don the burqa is larger than the loss of freedom that would follow its prohibition. He has other considerations too, of course.

I think you all know where I stand on this matter. I'm indifferent to Islam. I have never read the Qu'ran (and I'll wager not one other person on this forum has either) so when people say that Muslims do this and that because of the laws inherent in the Qu'ran I have no idea whether or not they're being honest. The importation of the Mohammedians and the stock peoples of Islam is just not a good thing for the West in terms of our own interests, regardless of what the Qu'ran says. It's going to be an absolute disaster in Europe. My position is simple. I'm not interested in integrating them. Just leave us alone, please.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #63 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:08am
 
Quote:
the loss of freedom by having to don the burqa is larger than the loss of freedom following its prohibition.


It depends on your perspective. To us maybe. To burqa wearing Australians...perhaps not so much.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #64 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:10am
 
I wasn't speaking for myself. I'm fairly certain one of the major reasons why people object to the burqa is because they feel that the women who wear it are not actually making a personal choice regarding their decision to do so.

I don't necessarily endorse this view.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #65 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:17am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:53pm:
Quote:
In this society, the meaning of the burqa/niqab is segregation, acceptance of religiously sanctioned second-class status


No, that's what it means to you.

Quote:
I am free to oblige them and TREAT them as second class


How? By denying them their right to dress how they like?



No - by having as much contempt for them as they parade for themselves. That is the meaning of the burqa for them: look at me, I am muslim woman,  living the vida korana, half a man, invisible, hear me roar - well, scarp that last bit, actually.

There are no religious reason for face covering in this country. There are only political reasons for it. The militantly-minded ones who peddle the 'I'm freely chosing the burqa' freely chose to express their self-exclusion, self-segregattion from this society. They are freely choosing to express their diapproval for women's right, for equality, for meritocracy. They are 'freely' chosing to oppose everything about human relations in this society.

If you want to be pius, cover your hair. If you want to be militantly stupid, hostile and offensive to the society around you, cover your face.




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #66 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:21am
 
While a little off topic, I am reminded greatly of that Theodore Dalrymple classic: Civility Wears a Hat.

Quote:
WHY do men behave so badly nowadays? I know that the question has been asked for more than 2500 years, but it just so happens that, this time, it is entirely apposite. The explanation came to me a few months ago in a blinding flash of illumination: the hat. To the hat, or rather to the lack of one, is to be traced the source of all our ill-deportment.Bare heads or heads accoutred in the wrong kind of headgear cause our want of self-respect and therefore our want of respect for others. What we need, therefore, is more hats: proper ones, from cloth caps to trilbies, homburgs, bowlers and toppers.

This revelation came to me in a peculiar way. For years I have bought Victorian era jewellery from a Birmingham, England, jeweller, David Johnson, and he happened to invite me one day to the opening of the new premises of the hat shop he had inherited from his mother, a milliner for more than 60 years. Johnson, developing the family tradition, had decided to branch out into men's hats.

Reflecting on hats, it suddenly occurred to me how much more difficult it was to behave badly in a proper hat and how much easier to be polite in one. I recalled the days of my childhood during which most men wore a hat and I remembered that my father, who was not always the most considerate of men, never failed, in a gesture of genuine politeness, to raise his hat to someone whom he knew. Indeed, the etiquette of hats was drummed into me as a child as being a stage in the taming of the natural savage.

Johnson, too, remembered the age of hats, a gentler age than our own, when men would remove them to acknowledge a passing hearse. A hat, like a cane, gives dignity to a man's bearing, but at the same time affords him the opportunity to practise a little ceremonial. This ceremonial is by definition the recognition of the right of others to due consideration.

The wrong kind of headgear, however, conveys another message entirely. A baseball cap is almost incompatible with an impression of dignity or intelligence and those whose peaks are pulled over the eyes intimidate, as they are no doubt intended to intimidate. The same is true of the hoods that young men pull over their heads and the woollen beanies that cling to their shaven scalps. No ceremonial or recognition of others is possible with this kind of headgear.

Of course, everything depends on cultural context. At one time Hitler wore proper hats (though he seems to have abandoned them as soon as he attained absolute power), as did Chicago gangsters and the politburo of the Soviet Union when it assembled on top of Lenin's mausoleum. Proper hats are thus no guarantee of moral rectitude.

Yet the ethical and social significance of hats has been widely acknowledged. Kemal Ataturk forbade the fez and Gamal Abdel Nasser the tarboosh. The point is not whether they were right to do so but that they believed, by instinct no doubt, that what people put on their heads affected the way they behaved and thought about the world.

Ataturk and Nasser were revolutionaries and they despised their own societies as they had come down to them; they thought that nothing would change until people adopted different headgear, as Peter the Great thought that Russia would remain Muscovy until the upper classes donned European dress.

Communist leaders such as Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-il and Nicolae Ceausescu all affected the workman's cloth cap, though of a subtly different design from real workmen's caps, for, like Princess Diana, they wanted to be simultaneously of the people and completely, metaphysically distinct from them.

Sese Seko Mobutu wore headwear made of leopard skin to imply power and prowess as well as an ability to pounce suddenly and unexpectedly, as leopards do. Leopards are often invisible to their prey until it is too late for them to escape and in Zaire it was widely believed that Mobutu had the power to make himself invisible.

Irrespective of the meaning of proper hats in times gone by, we always live in our own social and cultural context, and the fact is that certain kinds of hats do convey civility and others convey incivility. If you doubt it, conduct a little thought experiment.

You are walking down a dark street at night and a man approaches you wearing a proper hat. Do you fear him as much as you would a man who is wearing a hood or a baseball cap that covers his brow and eyes?

We have become browbeaten by the absurd, dangerous and uncivilised doctrine that if some instances of discrimination are morally reprehensible, all instances of discrimination are morally reprehensible.

A pub in Shropshire recently banned customers from wearing farmer's caps as well as the baseball caps, beanies and hoods that had so often spelled violent trouble, though no one expects trouble from someone wearing a farmer's cap. The fear of being called discriminatory paralyses sensible judgment.

It would be a most interesting study to establish whether an aggressive, hood-wearing young man became less aggressive once shorn of his hood. I suspect that he would.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #67 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:23am
 
Quote:
It may be, of course, that nice men wear hats and nasty men wear hoods. Men wear what is appropriate to their character and according to the message they wish to convey (solicitors wear pinstripes, barristers chalk stripes). The staff of Johnson's shop told me that purchasers of men's hats are invariably polite and charming, which is why they want a hat in the first place. Jamaican men who wear such hats are of the church-going rather than the cannabis and street robbery class.

That civil men should wear hats is much less interesting than if the wearing of hats should make men civil, for this would suggest that the encouragement of hat-wearing might lead to improved levels of public civility. It ought not to be beyond the resources of social psychology to provide experimental evidence as to whether my theory is correct, but it is sometimes necessary in times of crisis to act in advance of the evidence.

Practically all government reforms are carried out with a complete absence of evidence as to whether they will work and on much less plausible hypotheses than mine: for example, that bloated bureaucracies have the public interest at heart and want to solve the problems that have called them into being and are their raison d'etre.

It should not be beyond the wit of the Government to promote the wearing of hats by fiscal and other means. After all, it is constantly pulling legislative levers and pressing fiscal buttons. It could be the beginning of a long overdue cultural counter-revolution.


Obviously the burqa represents something completely different and elevated from the poor dress habits of most people today and thus it would be a mismatched analogy to compare the two, but Dalrymple is right and slobbery and comfort in exchange for unconcern for one's personal aesthetic has prevailed in Western society. Disgusting..

Maybe irrelevant, but it's a great article.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #68 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #69 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 4:54am
 

I will broach no friendship, I will offer neither solace or joy, for I am a ghost who walks among you, not free to be a complete person in my own right outside the boundaries of my own home, and my immediate family, I am a strange stranger, and will forever remain so, for you will never know my face, you will never know my smile, you will not see my grief or tears, for I am alone, as my mask not only locks others out of my life, it also locks me in.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #70 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:11am
 
Except that in most cases, it's self imposed. Apart from that, the people who have most influence are generally the mothers. 

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #71 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:43am
 
Soren wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



Yes - Muslim doctors and nurses are exempt from hygeine regulations in hospitals. They don't have to scrub or wash. Terrible! I think their religion prevents them from washing - unless its to pray to their pagan god, of course. They wash then. That's because they fear the wrath of their god.

Let me tell you this: if you see a swarthy nurse or doctor in a hospital, stay well away from them. They spread germs.

And if you see a swarthy passenger in an airport, run a mile.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #72 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:53am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:43am:
Soren wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



Yes - Muslim doctors and nurses are exempt from hygeine regulations in hospitals. They don't have to scrub or wash. Terrible! I think their religion prevents them from washing - unless its to pray to their pagan god, of course. They wash then. That's because they fear the wrath of their god.

Let me tell you this: if you see a swarthy nurse or doctor in a hospital, stay well away from them. They spread germs.

And if you see a swarthy passenger in an airport, run a mile.


So did you actually say anything useful here, like counter Soren's claim or is it just your usual nonsense. Then extend your own ramblings to airport lounges??? Huh

Asking, not defending Soren's claim.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #73 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:54am
 
Quote:
Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



If you wish to maintain some credibility, I suggest you check your information before posting it. The following is from the Guidance on Uniform and Workwear Policies for NHS Employers.

Quote:
Where, for religious reasons, members of staff wish to cover their forearms or wear a bracelet when not engaged in patient care, ensure that sleeves or bracelets can be pushed up the arm and secured in place for hand washing and direct patient care activity.

•Uniforms may include provision for sleeves that can be full length when staff are not engaged in direct patient care activity.
•Uniforms can have three-quarter length sleeves.
• Any full or three-quarter length sleeves must not be loose or dangling. They must be able to be rolled or pulled back and kept securely in place during hand-washing and direct patient care activity.
•Disposable over-sleeves, elasticated at the elbow and wrist, may be used but must be put on and discarded in exactly the same way as disposable gloves.
•Strict procedures for washing hands and wrists must still be observed.








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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #74 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:04pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:54am:
If you wish to maintain some credibility, I suggest you check your information before posting it.



I did, and so did The Daily Telegraph (UK):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7576357/Muslim-staff-escape-NHS-hygiene-rule.html

Derek Butler, chairman of MRSA Action UK, said: "My worry is that allowing some medics to use disposable sleeves you compromise patient safety because unless you change the sleeves between each patient, you spread bacteria.



"MRSA" stands for Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus



Welcome to MRSA Action UK

Our Mission Statement

The mission of MRSA Action UK is to raise public awareness and to influence Government and healthcare providers in the fight to prevent MRSA and all healthcare infections.
http://www.mrsaactionuk.net/


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #75 - Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:14pm
 
Quote:
I did, and so did The Daily Telegraph


So it's a comprehension issue then? Because the guideline clearly states that during patient care, sleeves must be rolled up and arms scrubbed.

Quote:
Derek Butler, chairman of MRSA Action UK, said: "My worry is that allowing some medics to use disposable sleeves you compromise patient safety because unless you change the sleeves between each patient, you spread bacteria


Disposable gloves must be replaced between contact with different patients, and after touching things like bed curtains. The sleeves are no different.

Quote:
•Disposable over-sleeves, elasticated at the elbow and wrist, may be used but must be put on and discarded in exactly the same way as disposable gloves


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #76 - Jun 25th, 2010 at 1:25pm
 
Ban the Burqa

I have read a lot of stuff on the net were people want the barqa ban in Australia.

As the barqa is part of the Islam religion you would have to change the Australia Constitution first. It states in the Constitution that we have freedom of religion
locutius wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:41am:
What does the Constitution actually state? Do you have it handy?

This is what I could quickly find.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/religion.html

Quote:
Australia has no official state religion and people are free to practise any religion they choose, as long they obey the law. Australians are also free not to have a religion.

Australia is a predominantly Christian country, with around 64 per cent of all Australians identifying as Christians. However, most other major religious faiths are also practised, reflecting Australia’s culturally diverse society.

Religious freedom is safeguarded by section 116 of the Australian Constitution, which prohibits the federal government from making any law establishing any religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. Individuals are free to express a diversity of views, as long as they do not incite religious hatred.



While I personally find the Burqa draconian and reflective of a misogynistic culture. I don't think it requires banning at a general level at this stage. I certainly think there are areas that are sensitive for security reasons where it should not be allowed. Areas where identification is a requirement for instance.


sorry locutius i took so long to get back to you, but this is what I found in the constitution

116. The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

[/quote]

I think most have miss the point. How would you change the Constitution so it wouldn't upset other religions
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #77 - Jun 25th, 2010 at 1:55pm
 
locutius wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:53am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:43am:
Soren wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



Yes - Muslim doctors and nurses are exempt from hygeine regulations in hospitals. They don't have to scrub or wash. Terrible! I think their religion prevents them from washing - unless its to pray to their pagan god, of course. They wash then. That's because they fear the wrath of their god.

Let me tell you this: if you see a swarthy nurse or doctor in a hospital, stay well away from them. They spread germs.

And if you see a swarthy passenger in an airport, run a mile.


So did you actually say anything useful here, like counter Soren's claim or is it just your usual nonsense. Then extend your own ramblings to airport lounges??? Huh

Asking, not defending Soren's claim.


No - it's just the usual nonsense.

I thought Soren's claim was very apt: that Muslims are exempt from health and hygeine regulations. I mean, we all know that they use their hands to, you know, wipe themselves, so to allow them to then place their hands on their patients without washing is terrible!

Oh, what is the world coming to?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #78 - Jun 25th, 2010 at 10:02pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 25th, 2010 at 1:55pm:
locutius wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:53am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:43am:
Soren wrote on Jun 24th, 2010 at 12:27am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:48pm:
Isn't that about personal choice too? If Soren doesn't like Islam, then he doesn't have to follow its religious laws. Neither do any of us. But those who do should be free to, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Simple, really.



Oh, lovely. It's all personal choice, innit?

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule
Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs
Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow.
The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.



And I were a patient and told them to get me a nurse who has scrubbed all the way to her elbow, these 'personal choicers' would denounce me as a racist islamophobe.  It's choice for them but not me.



Yes - Muslim doctors and nurses are exempt from hygeine regulations in hospitals. They don't have to scrub or wash. Terrible! I think their religion prevents them from washing - unless its to pray to their pagan god, of course. They wash then. That's because they fear the wrath of their god.

Let me tell you this: if you see a swarthy nurse or doctor in a hospital, stay well away from them. They spread germs.

And if you see a swarthy passenger in an airport, run a mile.


So did you actually say anything useful here, like counter Soren's claim or is it just your usual nonsense. Then extend your own ramblings to airport lounges??? Huh

Asking, not defending Soren's claim.


No - it's just the usual nonsense.

I thought Soren's claim was very apt: that Muslims are exempt from health and hygeine regulations. I mean, we all know that they use their hands to, you know, wipe themselves, so to allow them to then place their hands on their patients without washing is terrible!

Oh, what is the world coming to?


Oh good.

Should have just left it to Annie then. She actually made a point.

But keep being tediously sarcastic by all means, I'll learn to skip your posts. Gives me less to read. Wink
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #79 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:46am
 
Oh, I agree. Don't read my posts. I wouldn't. I just write them - that's enough for me.

Mind you, I always read the more surreal posts. I love them! Soren is a mine of valuable information most of the time, and his health regulation exhemption for Muslims is gold. Classic Soren, all the greatest hits: the despicable Musselman and some talkback radio rumour that someone emailed Alan.

But keep your eyes off this one. Don't look!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #80 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:52am
 
What am I to you, Karnal?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #81 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:41am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:46am:
Oh, I agree. Don't read my posts. I wouldn't. I just write them - that's enough for me.

Mind you, I always read the more surreal posts. I love them! Soren is a mine of valuable information most of the time, and his health regulation exhemption for Muslims is gold. Classic Soren, all the greatest hits: the despicable Musselman and some talkback radio rumour that someone emailed Alan.

But keep your eyes off this one. Don't look!



http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1277252877/34#34

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #82 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:47am
 
Ban the Jew. That would be a good start.
The burqa is a far far off second and quite insignificant in the scheme of things.
Rack off all Jews and we may have some hope.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #83 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:20am
 
I wouldn't say ban the Burqa outright, but faces should be exposed.

It wasn't that long ago that nuns covered their bodies and heads, but not their faces.

It's obvious the Burqa is a personal choice. Even in countries like Iran - the women wear a lot of makeup. They can be arrested for having their hair exposed, but not their painted faces.

We have to set some standards. Face covering should be illegal. Dress code rules apply to our indigenous people, us - as well as those from other nations to dress properly even though though some of them would feel more comfortable walking around our streets in just a lap lap.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #84 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:27am
 
What about people with frightening facial deformities?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #85 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:52am
 
Quote:
What about people with frightening facial deformities?


If you see them as frightening, then that's your problem innit?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #86 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:01am
 
Amadd wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:52am:
Quote:
What about people with frightening facial deformities?


If you see them as frightening, then that's your problem innit?



But what about self esteem issues? Surely some people who recognise that they don't have a "normal" face would prefer to cover up.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #87 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:27am
 

I can relate to the issue of people hiding facial deformities...

As the parent of a handsome teenager, who was born with Spastic Cerebral Palsy, I have direct experience of witnessing and dealing with people who can't help but stare and/or impose themselves on people with physical differences...

Seriously, from the time that he wore his first hand/arm splints and leg calliper, he became an object of unwanted attention and intrusion - there is no anonymity in physical disability (for him or any member of his family)...

He has received emails and public forum messages from 'friends' to the effect of, 'how are you and your hand?'...

Every Spring, this bizarre ritual occurs: when the long sleeves and pants come off, even kids (and adults) that he's known for years suddenly ask him what happened to him (often in very insensitive terms)...

When he's been in plasters (as has been at least an annual part of his therapy regime from infancy), strangers have said the most incredible things to him and us...

These days, he prefers people to stare at his hand splint rather than gawk at his hand - especially since he had tendon transfer surgery a couple of months ago and is now sporting 3 long scars on his forearm (he gets stared at and questioned big-time, whenever he takes it off to do his rehab - there's nowhere private that he can do it at school)...

His younger brother has had to suffer some unwanted attention too - and has felt the need to come to his brother's defence on many occasions...

His hand splint has cost up to $765 (gets more expensive every year) - and a few years ago, a kid took it off him (he was holding it, not wearing it) and tossed it out the school bus window...

End of rant!

Roll Eyes

PS A friend of my son, whom we met through the Spastic Centre, has a rare genetic condition that causes severe facial and other deformities as well as heath problems - he's probably lost count of the number of surgeries he's had on his head/face, hands, feet, etc. - and I feally feel for him and his family when we get together in public because he draws a great deal of attention (but people seem reluctant to actually speak to him). He does wear a large baseball-style cap most of the time but I haven't seen him fully cover up his face...

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« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:44am by Equitist »  

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #88 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:34am
 


A few months back, I witnessed an incident at a local service station, where a white yobbo verbally abused a woman wearing a hijab and physically assaulted (picked a fight with) her male companion - all captured on CCTV too...

I saw most of it and heard some of it - including the aftermath when the yobbo bragged to the terrified attendants that he had called some mates to really have some fun...

Apparently, the yobbo and his loud-mouthed girlfriend were locals but I got the feeling that the other couple were passing through, heading home from the Central Coast to Sydney...

The yobbo's attention and aggression was totally unprovoked - and, when I spoke to the other couple after the initial onslaught, I got the impression that they were nice people who had faced this sort of situation in the past...

I was ashamed to call myself an Australian that day!

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #89 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 10:06am
 
That sounds really awful. Especially the bus window and service station incidents. I hope the parents paid for the replacement.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #90 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 10:30am
 

Hlysnan wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 10:06am:
That sounds really awful. Especially the bus window and service station incidents. I hope the parents paid for the replacement.


Yer, my younger son (12 YO) was with me when the service station incident occurred: there were several witnesses (a couple of blokes intervened) and everybody present was visibly shaken by the senseless violence...

My older son was young when the bus incident occurred and so shaken by the whole thing, that he was unable to identify the kid who tossed his splint.

Actually, despite my little rant over the unwanted attention, I've gotta say that: he's had a much better time of it, overall, in mainstream schooling than I had expected.

There have been but a few other incidents of over-the-top bullying, 3 of which resulted in my son (and the other boys) being suspended from school.

Although my son didn't start any of those 'fights', and the other kids had made a long-term habit out of giving him a hard time, his suspension each time was a 'fair' consequence - as he did physically retaliate each time - and, ironically, we did fork out for the replacement of one kid's broken prescription spectacles.

That said, his brother has been targeted occasionally and I remember what it was like for boys in my days in high school - and such interactions are probably par for life's course...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #91 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 10:55am
 
Thy, this is my autistic daughter's first year in a mainstream school so I can relate.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #92 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:07am
 
Soren, when you wrote about reserving your right to treat women who wear the burqa as second class citizens, I was reminded of this video. It highlights what Muslims face on a daily basis - not just in America, but here too.

It's well worth watching for anybody who has a spare 10 minutes.




I love the man at 6:15.




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #93 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:12am
 
Amadd wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:47am:
Ban the dirty stinkin' fukcing Jew. That would be a good start.
The burqa is a far far off second and quite insignificant in the scheme of things.
Rack off all Jews and we may have some hope.




Wow, that's quite an ugly worm eating at your heart and brain there. WHen something, anything, can make you think and feel like that, you are as good as lost.






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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #94 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:25am
 
I don't believe that Burqas should be banned, but I think that a business should be allowed to serve or refuse customers for any reason they like. If I walked into a bakery and saw this happen, I think I would walk out as well though.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #95 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:30am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:07am:
Soren, when you wrote about reserving your right to treat women who wear the burqa as second class citizens, I was reminded of this video. It highlights what Muslims face on a daily basis - not just in America, but here too.

It's well worth watching for anybody who has a spare 10 minutes.




I love the man at 6:15.







Couple of things:
facial deformities and cerebral palsy are not something any one chooses, so the earlier attempts at drawing a parallel with burqasc are false.

Bakery - the woman is not wearing a burqa. This discussion (or my contribution to it at least) has only ever been about face covering. SO I think the video is wide of the mark as well, although I am glad to see people standing up for what they think is right and not siding with the baker. I would have confronted the baker as well, believe it or not. However, if it is was a woman covering her face, I would have sided with the man (without endorsing his language about about camels).

Finally, just on that video as it is - I would like you to make a thought expriment (there will never be an actual video of it) and imagine what would have happened if a jew, complete with yarmulka, sidelocks, tefillah, the works, walked into a bakery in Mecca. Or a woman in an ordinary Western summer dress and sandals.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #96 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:11pm
 
Quote:
I would have confronted the baker as well, believe it or not


I do believe it.

Quote:
However, it is was a woman covering her face, I would have sided with the man (without endorsing his language about about camels).


They're still people behind the niqab/burqa. I don't think they deserve to be humiliated like that.

Quote:
I would like you to make a thought expriment (there will never be an actual video of it) and imagine what would have happened if jew, complete with yarmulka, sidelocks, tefillah, the works, walked into a bakery in Mecca


It probably would have turned out a lot worse. The Saudi government violates the human rights of its own Muslim citizens on a daily basis - it's pretty doubtful that Jews would be treated any better.

As for the average Saudi baker, I'd hope that they'd have some decent human respect. But even if they didn't, it doesn't mean that we are then excused to behave similarly.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #97 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:27pm
 

Speaking of pervasive prejudice and discrimination, a must-see doco on the Blue/Brown Eyes Experiment is showing next week on ABC 2...

I was gonna post a thread on it anyway - but I had better get the programming details correct first...



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #98 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:36pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 10:55am:
Thy, this is my autistic daughter's first year in a mainstream school so I can relate.


Wow, Annie, I've spent a lot of time with individuals and families in the spectrum - both in clinical, home and public settings - and therefore I have a fairly good idea of how things must be for you...

Friends of ours have 2 adolescent boys in the spectrum - one severely autistic and the other Aspergic - their 15 YO brother (middle child) is part of the furniture here, staying one or more nights most weekends and school holidays...

I've more recently become friends with another family at roller skating - their son is more moderately affected and he's quite a cute but challenging little rascal!

I don't want to pry, but: if you want to share, I'd be interested to know more about your daughter and the experiences of her and your family - either publicly and/or offline...

No wuckers, either way!

Wink
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #99 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:44pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:11pm:
Quote:
I would like you to make a thought expriment (there will never be an actual video of it) and imagine what would have happened if jew, complete with yarmulka, sidelocks, tefillah, the works, walked into a bakery in Mecca


It probably would have turned out a lot worse. The Saudi government violates the human rights of its own Muslim citizens on a daily basis - it's pretty doubtful that Jews would be treated any better.




Annie, we are not talking about the governments here. It's no use reflexively hiding behind 'oppressive, not true to Islam governments'. We are talking about ordinary people, unaware of any cameras.

That jew, or that woman in an ordinary summer dress, could not have walked into the friggin' country, never mind the bakery. And if they ever would make it into a bakery or just onto the streets anywhere where the burqa is the norm, they would have been bloodied by the mob, at the very least.

Ordinary muslims would have seen that jew, that woman, as making deliberate, pointed provocations against them. ANd that's what it would have been. Every act of NOT behaving like th Romans, when in Rome, is a deliberate pointed provocation.

ANd so it is with the burqa wearers in the West. They are pointedly and deliberately provoking in a way that they would not tolerate for one second if the boot was in the other foot.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #100 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 1:15pm
 
Quote:
Annie, we are not talking about the governments here. It's no use reflexively hiding behind 'oppressive, not true to Islam governments'. We are talking about ordinary people, unaware of any cameras.

That jew, or that woman in an ordinary summer dress, could not have walked into the friggin' country, never mind the bakery. And if they ever would make it into a bakery or just onto the streets anywhere where the burqa is the norm, they would have been bloodied by the mob, at the very least.

Ordinary muslims would have seen that jew, that woman, as making deliberate, pointed provocations against them.


Yes you're right. I can't argue with that part.

Quote:
ANd so it is with the burqa wearers in the West. They are pointedly and deliberately provoking in a way that they would not tolerate for one second if the boot was in the other foot.



What are they provoking?

Thankfully, Australia is not Saudi Arabia. Our culture embraces diversity. Should we strip people of their rights just because other countries are intolerant and barbaric?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #101 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 1:15pm
 

BTW thanks, Annie, for posting that video - it was both disturbing and heart-warming...

It reminded me very much of how 2 of my nieces are treated so differently at times - sisters of same parents/heritage but one blue-eyed and fair and the other of darker complexion - the latter of whom has been harassed throughout her life in Sydney's Eastern suburbs and even spat upon for looking like an 'Abbo', despite not being of Aborignial descent...

It took me a while to get through the video, what with both of my boys chewing up bandwidth being online at the same time - but it was worth it!

What I'll never get, is the doublethink that allows some people to simultaneously feel intense hatered for Muslims and claim to be fighting for their rights in the ME...

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« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2010 at 1:30pm by Equitist »  

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #102 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 1:18pm
 
You're welcome, Thy.

Kids, eh?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #103 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 2:28pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 1:15pm:
Quote:
Annie, we are not talking about the governments here. It's no use reflexively hiding behind 'oppressive, not true to Islam governments'. We are talking about ordinary people, unaware of any cameras.

That jew, or that woman in an ordinary summer dress, could not have walked into the friggin' country, never mind the bakery. And if they ever would make it into a bakery or just onto the streets anywhere where the burqa is the norm, they would have been bloodied by the mob, at the very least.

Ordinary muslims would have seen that jew, that woman, as making deliberate, pointed provocations against them.


Yes you're right. I can't argue with that part.

Quote:
ANd so it is with the burqa wearers in the West. They are pointedly and deliberately provoking in a way that they would not tolerate for one second if the boot was in the other foot.



What are they provoking?

Thankfully, Australia is not Saudi Arabia. Our culture embraces diversity. Should we strip people of their rights just because other countries are intolerant and barbaric?



What are they provoking? Take a wild, wild guess. You readily concede that the jew and the woman in summer dress would be provocative in jedda. There's a clue in there, and it's not just that they are culturally different (if that was the only pertinent point, then why are we letting them into this country, BTW??)

This might help: nobody would find the shaved heads and saffron robes of buddhist monks provocative on George Street.
But a large number would find fully face covered Muslim women confronting and provocative. Why?

Here's another clue: a hundred of those shaved, saffron robed monk would be hugely provocative on Tiananmen square.

Can you guess the difference now? Context.

Doggedly insisting on facecovering in the west is a political act as much as anything else. Walking around like a buddhist monk isn't.






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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #104 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 2:40pm
 
So are they women trying to be provocative by giving the finger to Australian culture, or are they victims of oppression? You can't have it both ways



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #105 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 2:58pm
 

What about those little Jewish cap thingies - aren't they a sign of many of the 'un-Australian' things some of you lot are harping on about herein!?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #106 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 3:09pm
 
Anyone not getting around in stubbies, thongs, wife beater and carrying a VB is being deliberatly provocative to every true Aussie getting around in stubbies, thongs, wife beater and carrying a VB.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #107 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 4:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 3:09pm:
Anyone not getting around in stubbies, thongs, wife beater and carrying a VB is being deliberatly provocative to every true Aussie getting around in stubbies, thongs, wife beater and carrying a VB.



????? WTF  ??????

Annie proposed that a woman cannot be oppressed, and give the finger too, it must be one or the other, and superficially at least, some may think that argument has merit, as do the people who believe that masking up is the womans choice, which then begs the question as to why their husbands do not also feel the same need to mask up in public?

Annie, a woman can both mask up, because she is oppressed into believing that it is her duty to hide herself from male view because Islam historically lays blame for sexual irresponsibility totally at the woman's door, and also at the same time accept the other Islamic teaching that we are an inferior culture of decadent dhimmis, and so not wishing to be seen to be accepting in any way, our decadence, she hides her face from her fellow citizens.

Both actions flow from the same delusional, controlling cult of Islam, and they most definitely are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #108 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:12pm
 
Quote:
Annie, a woman can both mask up, because she is oppressed into believing that it is her duty to hide herself from male view


No. A person cannot be oppressed into believing anything. Indoctrinated, yes and that's the nature of all organised religion. But not oppressed.

Quote:
Islam historically lays blame for sexual irresponsibility totally at the woman's door
.

Partially true, but a little simplistic. There are plenty of Islamic laws regarding sexuality and propriety for men too.

Quote:
not wishing to be seen to be accepting in any way, our decadence, she hides her face from her fellow citizens.


That has nothing to do with it at all. Are women that choose to wear the hijab rejecting our culture by covering their hair?

The purpose of both the hijab and niqab/burqa is to hide a woman's beauty. That's it. Is it right? No, not for me so I don't wear it. But women who believe they have to wear it, should be able to.

I understand that some people find it confronting, but it isn't intended to be a rejection of our society.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #109 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:23pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 2:40pm:
So are they women trying to be provocative by giving the finger to Australian culture, or are they victims of oppression? You can't have it both ways






In this case, alas, I can have it both ways:

They are submitting(!) - we know what that means - to a political ideology that gives the finger to the west by, among other things, oppressing its women.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #110 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:44pm
 
Even if Muslim women in Australia wore the burqa because of political ideology rather than religious duty, they're in Australia not Saudi Arabia, so they're "submitting" to and oppressed by nothing. Religion, ideology, mode of dress; these are matters of personal choice, as much for Muslim women as for secular.

Australian Muslims are just as much a part of the West as you or I.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #111 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:45pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:52am:
What am I to you, Karnal?


You're very nice. I'd certainly trust you with one of my convenience stores. I understand your family come from Lahore.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #112 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:47pm
 
Quote:
Australian Muslims are just as much a part of the West as you or I.


No, see, they're not.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #113 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:49pm
 
Quote:
You're very nice. I'd certainly trust you with one of my convenience stores. I understand your family come from Lahore.


The northern suburbs too. I wouldn't trust any of those westie Lahorians with any of MY convenience stores, but that's probably the result of my own personal biases.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #114 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:51pm
 
Why not? If they're Australian citizens they have the same rights and responsibilites as the rest of us.

Regardless of how much you don't like it.
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Reply #115 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:54pm
 
You said "as much a part", though. That entails something far more meaningful than the toiletpaper citizenship documents printed and handed out by by a government that may as well just be viewed as an entity thats main purpose here is to service and and fulfill the demands of wealthy people.
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Reply #116 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:56pm
 
And what is that?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #117 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:56pm
 
Personally I don't think its anyone's business what anyone else chooses to wear.
I find gaunt, hairy, post middle aged men posing in budgie smugglers on public beaches extremely offensive and gut churning but I dont call for them to be banned.
Come to mention it...maybe I should put together a protest group  Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #118 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:59pm
 
Equitist wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 2:58pm:
What about those little Jewish cap thingies - aren't they a sign of many of the 'un-Australian' things some of you lot are harping on about herein!?


Or what about toupes? I'd ban the lot of them but people want hair. What do you do?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #119 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 3:09pm:
Anyone not getting around in stubbies, thongs, wife beater and carrying a VB is being deliberatly provocative to every true Aussie getting around in stubbies, thongs, wife beater and carrying a VB.


Calling a singlet a "wifebeater" is particularly unAustralian, old boy.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #120 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:04pm
 
Its the explosion in Mirkin sales that I find offensive  Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #121 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:06pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 5:51pm:
Why not? If they're Australian citizens they have the same rights and responsibilites as the rest of us.

Regardless of how much you don't like it.


That is, of course, a baseless assertion. A community doesn't have just a set of rights and responsibilities in common. These are necessary but not sufficient. Big difference.


Just to illustrate it with something unrelated to the burqa: when you are cheering on teh socceroos, you are not cheering them for their common rights and responsibilities.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #122 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:08pm
 
adelcrow wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:04pm:
Its the explosion in Mirkin sales that I find offensive  Smiley



Yes, it's the corrosive spread of Brazilian influence.

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Reply #123 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:12pm
 
Why am I cheering them on, Soren?
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Reply #124 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:14pm
 
.. you don't know?
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Reply #125 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:20pm
 
I'm asking you to define it.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #126 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:28pm
 

"No. A person cannot be oppressed into believing anything."- Annie

Perhaps you need to speak to a few women hiding out in refuges Annie, and rethink your position, people can most certainly be oppressed into believing they deserve to be oppressed, after all battered wife syndrome is exactly that, and many of these poor women suffer, and are so oppressed by heir circumstances as to accept it as their own fault.

I assumed it would be pretty self evident, but I guess I was wrong again.

I accept the niqab and the scarf, and all the other silly religious uniforms are down to plain old indoctrination, but to seriously assert that a person chooses to voluntarily isolate themselves totally from society as being due to them expressing their own free will, is patently absurd.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #127 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:36pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:12pm:
Why am I cheering them on, Soren?


I must admit, I found Soren's post a little hard to understand too. Call me stupid...

I don't really follow soccer, so I don't cheer them on. But if people don't support them because they represent Australia as a nation, what do they support them for?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #128 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 6:40pm
 
Quote:
I accept the niqab and the scarf, and all the other silly religious uniforms are down to plain old indoctrination, but to seriously assert that a person chooses to voluntarily isolate themselves totally from society as being due to them expressing their own free will, is patently absurd.


I know a Fijian Indian Muslim woman called Sharina who started wearing the niqab while her husband was away on a business trip. When he came back, he asked her if it was really necessary. I've been to her house on numerous occasions after attending classes on Islam with her at the house of another niqab'd woman who is married to an Australian convert. I know yet another niqab'd woman who converted from Christianity and is absolutely as 'Australian' as you or I.

All wear the niqab of their own free will.

My best friend wears the hijab. She converted 17 years ago when she married a Lebanese man. Her father (a Catholic) was horrified. When he'd drive us around in the car he used to make her lay down on the back seat so his friends wouldn't see her. Now when she visits her parents with her husband, her dad offers them a beer after they walk in and they all have a laugh.

The average Muslim is no threat to anybody.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #129 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:00pm
 
Quote:
All wear the niqab of their own free will.
Annie

Well whether they actually retain any free will, after subjugating themselves to Islamic indoctrination is a debatable point, and a debate which I would strongly argue the negative.
I contend that people so deluded by religious dogma effectively lose any real free will, and merely slavishly follow directions from the authority they have placed their trust in.

Quote:
The average Muslim is no threat to anybody


I really wish that were true, or that there even was such a thing as an "average" muslim, but I am afraid that the friends you speak of most certainly would pose a significant threat if ever they believed they were being called upon by allah to perform an act of violence that would glorify his name, because they have abandoned their personal identity, and subjugated themselves to the will of Islam, and they will be a potential threat, as long as Islam remains a potential threat.

The degree of threat one can associate with muslims is in direct proportional relation to how seriously they follow their faith.

The truly deluded, devoted adherent of Islam could ignore their friendship with you and walk into your house and blow up you and your whole family, as well as themselves, if a convincing Imam could make them believe it was allah's will, for they will always "submit" to the will of allah, and they are used to having others tell them just what allah's will is, at any given time.

It is an horrific concept, I know you will flatly reject, because to someone of your sensibilities, such actions would always remain unthinkable, for a muslim however, they are sadly not.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #130 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:19pm
 
Also, what makes Islam much more of an evil (as if deception for the greater glory of Islam is not evil enough) is the concept of Muslim land. Not content with imbuing one's being with its pernicious dogma, it extends its authority into the ground one stands on and dreams of an Imperial Theocratic dictatorship - the Caliphate.

As with cults such as Scientology, all Islamic groups must necessarily be treated with suspicion.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #131 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:27pm
 
Quote:
The degree of threat one can associate with muslims is in direct proportional relation to how seriously they follow their faith.

The truly deluded, devoted adherent of Islam could ignore their friendship with you and walk into your house and blow up you and your whole family, as well as themselves, if a convincing Imam could make them believe it was allah's will, for they will always "submit" to the will of allah, and they are used to having others tell them just what allah's will is, at any given time.



Mozza, I think I should explain something. I was a Muslim for 12 years. I wore the scarf on and off for that time. I've read the Quran, I know the rules.

During the time I wore the scarf, I was spat on, verbally abused too many times to mention and shoved down the stairs at a railway station. I can assure you, I never for one moment considered physically harming anyone. Not one single class I attended promoted violence. Every Muslim I know condemned 9/11.

When I was a Muslim, I spent Christmas Day with my family, swam and surfed at the beach with my friends, felt strong pride when I listened to the national anthem.

A few years ago while researching for an article on a particularly horrific case of child abuse, I went into my bedroom and pretty much threw a tantrum at the state of the world. Then I stopped believing in God.

None of my Muslim friends cared. I'm still welcome in their houses and visit regularly, even though we have different beliefs.

So that's where I'm coming from. I know these people because I was one of them.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #132 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:43pm
 
"No. A person cannot be oppressed into believing anything."

- Annie

That's actually incorrect Annie.

I've survived long term middle class domestic violence at the hands of a well connected and well resourced ex husband who was twice my age. I met him at age 20 (when he was 40) and the 5 yr marriage which followed was riddled with emotional, physical and sexual violence. However .. everything he did to me was apparently "normal" and I had the problem (his words to me each day).

By age 25 I believed what I was told .. that I had serious physical health issues which affected my hair and skin. My hair couldn't grow beyond a bob and my skin bruised too easily so I reasoned within myself that I needed to protect my sensitive skin and hair by covering my head with a scarf and my body with lots of clothes.

I felt safest when dressed this way and it helped me cope with being such an an "old" and "ugly" 25 yr old lady  (again .. his words to me each day).

It was difficult going outside .. and on the rare occasions where I was allowed to .. eg to pay bills and do shopping .. I found myself hiding behind my husband and looking only at the ground.

On one such occasion I bumped into a former friend at the post office who seemed surprised to see me. Apparently I had changed a lot.

She asked me a few questions regarding my law career, my church (I was well known in church circles for my singing/music abilities), my family and friends .. and I found myself saying .. Oh I didn't finish my law degree because I'd be pretty hopeless as a lawyer and I no longer work because I'm lucky to have a husband who gives me money when I ask him for it. I even stated that my family and friends were no longer in my life because they only wanted to interfere with my marriage so it was best that they stayed away.

This former friend hugged me and then quietly took to visiting me when my husband was at work. She proved to be my life line.

I could go on about the mess I was in .. but the point of my post is this: I was able to extricate myself from a dysfunctional 5 year "marriage" and get some urgent counselling. These counselling sessions helped me UNLEARN concepts which were imposed on me whilst oppressed .. and which I had come to accept and believe in.

I learned simple things like being in your late 20's does NOT mean you are old .. and that if you can manage workplace budgets of 2 million dollars (at the time of my marriage I was responsible for such a budget) then that probably means you aren't hopeless after all.

Oh and as regards my hair and skin?? Seems I believed what I was told at the time by my husband .. ie that I had some genetic weakness which made my hair unable to grow and my skin bruise so easily. Well .. I discovered over time with counselling that if your husband doesn't pull you by the hair and drag you round the house until half your hair rips off in clumps AND if he doesn't grab you violently and throw you onto windows/walls/furniture .. smashing whatever you land on .. your hair and skin will be just fine!

It took me 10 years to recover from 5 years of what appeared to be normal to me. I had no idea I was a victim of violence .. because each day was consistent and after a while I believed that everything that was happening to me was indeed "normal" as my husband kept repeating to me. Besides .. my husband was well educated, wealthy and well respected .. so whatever he said to me was the truth.  

You know .. I went back to uni (even though my ex husband reminded me each day that I was too DUMB and STUPID for study) .. and you wouldn't believe it .. despite me being so unintelligent .. I was STILL able to qualify for a couple of degrees!

I've regained the support and contact of my loving and caring family and friends and above all else .. I've regained my sense of independence and freedom to THINK and FEEL whatever I want to.

I'm in my late 30's now .. and with the passage of time (as well as counselling and lifestyle changes) I can now talk about what happened. It's all ancient history as far as I am concerned and I've moved on and up.

Nedless to say .. I've NEVER looked back!

I trust the above clarifies why I disagree with your perspective Annie. It is indeed possible to be oppressed and whilst oppressed to believe anything you're told.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #133 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:56pm
 
To suggest that no woman would choose this of their own free will is absurd - and kind of arrogant in that it suggests that no-one could possibly choose something different from you. Sure, some do out of fear, but many have a genuine choice and no pressure. We must fight to maintain that freedom, not try to 'protect' women by denying them basic freedom.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #134 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:56pm
 

annie - the muslims in aussie have not had a march against islamic extremism.
nor have muslims anywhere.
no muslims state a word against any extremist or 9/11.

till they stop their own they can all bugger off.
we should not have to spend our resources on some extremists who follow some paedophile from 1600 years ago.
anyone who agrees with this belief is in agreeance with suicide bombers and repression.

you should know the koran as well as i do. as long as you were permitted to read.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #135 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:25pm
 
Fact: You do NOT have to wear the burqa (if you're Muslim).

Bottom line: The burqa is a piece of clothing that covers a woman from head to foot .. it is also a face mask.

Question/s: How is it that the Muslim women I know quite well do not wear the burqa NOR do they wish to wear it even though they are practising Muslims??? And .. how is it that they can readily understand current concerns which call for the banning of the burqa given the context of terrorism???

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #136 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:43pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:00pm:
The garment should not be banned. However, obscuring one's identity by any means in public spaces, on religious grounds should be disallowed. Turn it around - if no religion is to be established, then the public space (public thoroughfare, school, offices, courts etc) are also not to be fragmented by claims of special religious privileges either.



Fair comment Soren.

However we can't pretend that this is merely about community cultural/religious tolerance (or lack thereof) .. because it's more than that.

Community security and safety is another imprtant underlying concern which is driving the burqa ban agenda forward.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #137 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:50pm
 
Quote:
It is indeed possible to be oppressed and whilst oppressed to believe anything you're told


In Australia you have a choice and protection, unless this happened in a Muslim nation.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #138 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 9:04am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:56pm:
To suggest that no woman would choose this of their own free will is absurd - and kind of arrogant in that it suggests that no-one could possibly choose something different from you. Sure, some do out of fear, but many have a genuine choice and no pressure. We must fight to maintain that freedom, not try to 'protect' women by denying them basic freedom.



NO FD, what is absurd is that you have glued yourself so steadfastly to the politically correct concept that wishing to mask your whole identity in public could ever be a normal "free" choice, of any mentally well balanced human being.

Certainly some people so paranoid and deluded as to fear everything and everyone outside of the incredibly small world they have come to accept as their limits, may delude themselves into believing it is their free choice, but only because they have already been massively compromised on how they believe it is correct to interact with others.

No normal person would ever be so compromised, and that these women are so subjugated as to actually believe it is their free choice is only indicative of the degree to which they have been socially isolated by the beliefs they accept, that drive their choices.

The free will displayed is the same as the free will of the people of Jonestown who drank the poisoned cordial, and gave it to their children, the same psychology or more accurately, psychopathy, is at play.

This most certainly is not about banning people from wearing outward displays designed to identify their personal religiousity, and as Soren said, a common law which approached masking up without reference to any specific religious or cultural context, would be the type of law we should enact.

PS, I especially appreciate both Annie and Lisa sharing their personal stories so openly and honestly, I admire you both greatly, and have a tremendous respect for you both.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #139 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:08am
 
Quote:
annie - the muslims in aussie have not had a march against islamic extremism.
nor have muslims anywhere.
no muslims state a word against any extremist or 9/11


Sprint, no. Many, many Islamic groups around the world condemned 9/11 and continue to condemn terrorism in general.

Here are a few examples:

Quote:
On September 11, the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation's largest grassroots American Muslim civil rights and advocacy group, distributed a statement which read:  "We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts. All members of the Muslim community are asked to offer whatever help they can to the victims and their families. Muslim medical professionals should go to the scenes of the attacks to offer aid and comfort to the victims."


Quote:
CAIR also issued an alert to the Muslim community on September 11, urging that the following additional actions be taken:  "Muslim relief agencies should contact their counterparts to offer support in the recovery efforts.  Individual Muslims should donate blood by contacting the local office of the Red Cross…They should also send donations to those relief agencies that are on the scene of the attacks."



Quote:
The American Muslim Political Coordination Council: "American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."


Quote:
The American Muslim Council calls upon the members of the Muslim community to come together at this tragic time where so many of our fellow Americans have been killed and injured. This American tragedy affects all of us and we should do whatever we can do help save lives of the injured victims. AMC encourages Islamic Centers to start blood drive campaigns and encourages everyone to visit hospitals and medical centers in the capitol and New York City to donate much needed blood to those who are required to receive immediate medical assistance


Quote:
Islamic leaders across Birmingham have issued a joint message against terrorism in a bid to tackle mistrust of Muslims in the UK.
Leaders of the 150 mosques in the city have backed the statement, which comes in response to the police raid in London's Forest Gate this month. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm


Quote:
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents.


As for Australian Muslim leaders:

Quote:
SYDNEY, September 11, 2005 – Australian Muslims condemned today, terrorist attacks against civilians and pledged loyalty to the country, while accusing new anti-terror measures of fueling anti-Muslim hysteria.

"These were warriors from an Islamic background that hijacked Islam," Keysar Trad, the president of the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia, told the National Security and Harmony Summit in Sydney University, reported Agence France Presse (AFP).

"They hijacked our lifestyle and our freedoms. And the spin machine of Western governments is exploiting these hijackers of Islam, these murderers."

Australian Muslim leaders gathering for the meeting observed a minute of silence to remember the victims of 9/11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, which claimed almost 3,000 lives.

Ali Roude, Vice-president of the New South Wales Islamic Council, echoed a similar position. "They are not us, nor will they ever be," he was quoted as saying by the Australian Associated Press (AAP). "Free nations must defend themselves and our mosques must pray for peace. Anything less is un-Islamic and un-Australian."



There are loads more, Sprint. You're just not aware of them because they don't fit with what you want to believe.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #140 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:30am
 
Quote:
anyone who agrees with this belief is in agreeance with suicide bombers and repression.

you should know the koran as well as i do. as long as you were permitted to read.


You show your ignorance there, Sprint. Permitted to read? Please.


Quote:
How is it that the Muslim women I know quite well do not wear the burqa NOR do they wish to wear it even though they are practising Muslims?


Lisa, it's a matter of religious interpretation.



Quote:
The free will displayed is the same as the free will of the people of Jonestown who drank the poisoned cordial, and gave it to their children, the same psychology or more accurately, psychopathy, is at play.



You're seriously comparing the choice to wear the niqab to the murder of children? Do you know of any Australian criminals who wear the niqab?




~~~~~~~~~~~~

All that said, thanks for your kind words, Mozz Smiley






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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #141 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:43am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:08am:
Many, many Islamic groups around the world condemned 9/11 and continue to condemn terrorism in general.

No doubt true, but these moderate Muslims need to show the world that Islam is not about the reconstitution of an imperialist system, the cause for which apparently must be advanced, by force if necessary, everywhere.

They need to show the world that, while they may be Muslim, the land on which they stand is not. That religious law is of the heart and is subordinate to mutable law which more accurately reflects the contemporary will of the people.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #142 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:49am
 
Helian, I honestly don't know what you mean. Can you provide an example please?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #143 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:50am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:49am:
Helian, I honestly don't know what you mean. Can you provide an example please?

The reconstitution of the Caliphate. The obsession with land, once Islamic, considered forever Islamic.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #144 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:51am
 

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:43am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:08am:
Many, many Islamic groups around the world condemned 9/11 and continue to condemn terrorism in general.

No doubt true, but these moderate Muslims need to show the world that Islam is not about the reconstitution of an imperialist system, the cause for which apparently must be advanced, by force if necessary, everywhere.

They need to show the world that, while they may be Muslim, the land on which they stand is not. That religious law is of the heart and is subordinate to mutable law which more accurately reflects the contemporary will of the people.


Sadly and ironically, the Muslim Moderates are unlikely to get much airplay in the international media - unless and until such suits the underlying agendas of the powermongers who are the puppeteers of Western pollies...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #145 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:54am
 
Equitist wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:51am:
Sadly and ironically, the Mulsim Moderates are unlikely to get much airplay in the international media - unless and until such suits the underlying agendas of the powermongers who are the puppeteers of Western pollies...

Unless and until they destroy the evil among them. Its one thing to beat one's breast about 9/11 yet harbour resentment about the thwarting of the Islamist cause.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #146 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:57am
 
Who is advocating for that? It'd be a nightmare for the leaders of the Arab world.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #147 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:57am
 
What's the 'Islamic cause' Helian?

Quote:
Unless and until they destroy the evil among them.


Do you feel the same way about Christians and Jews? Plenty of evil there too.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #148 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:01am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:57am:
Who is advocating for that? It'd be a nightmare for the leaders of the Arab world.


Are you suggesting that the implementation of Sharia law and dreams of the same for the Caliphate are not general Muslim aspirations?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #149 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:03am
 

Let's face it, folks...all religions promote bizarre customs, rituals and supersitions - some overt, others insidious - which individual followers will choose (or be co-erced) to adopt or reject...

This is more or less facilitated, by the degree to which both 'doG-fearing' and disempowerment of individuals, are fundamental to religious teaching (and enforcement) in different religious sub-cultures...

If a religious sub-culture is co-opted by self-serving control-freaks, who have little (and/or selective) regard for the official doctrine, then oppression prevails...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #150 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:05am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 10:57am:
What's the 'Islamic cause' Helian?

Quote:
Unless and until they destroy the evil among them.


Do you feel the same way about Christians and Jews? Plenty of evil there too.

The world has had its day with Christian theocracy or Church-driven autocracy. Christian fundamentalism is its last gasp and, thankfully, most adherents are blood-simple meatheads who can and should be marginalised, ridiculed and kept from positions of power.

Judaism is not a proselytising religion.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #151 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:09am
 
Quote:
Are you suggesting that the implementation of Sharia law and dreams of the same for the Caliphate are not general Muslim aspirations?


For Aussie Muslims? Absolutely, and we have the Taliban to thank for it. They've shown perfectly what an extremist interpretation of Islamic law can do, which is a risk of living under Shariah law.

Most Muslims in the West value democracy, from what I've seen. It grants them the freedom to practise the religion of their choice without the tyranny, which allows them to interpret the Quran and Hadith for themselves. Who'd mess with that?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #152 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:14am
 
Quote:
Christian fundamentalism is its last gasp and, thankfully, most adherents are blood-simple meatheads who can and should be marginalised, ridiculed and kept from positions of power.


Tell that to the 'witch' children in Uganda and Nigeria who are burnt alive and tortured for being possessed. The Evangelicals have plenty of power there. Should we not listen to moderate Christians because of a few nutjobs?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #153 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:15am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:09am:
For Aussie Muslims? Absolutely, and we have the Taliban to thank for it. They've shown perfectly what an extremist interpretation of Islamic law can do, which is a risk of living under Shariah law.

We have always had Saudi Arabia and, for the last 30+ years, Iran.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:09am:
Most Muslims in the West value democracy, from what I've seen. It grants them the freedom to practise the religion of their choice without the tyranny, which allows them to interpret the Quran and Hadith for themselves. Who'd mess with that?

If only that were true.

I'll bet that our resident Muslim, Abu and his idiot sidekick Lestat, won't be adding their voices to your sentiments.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #154 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:16am
 
How many non Muslim people around the world kill, rape or assault each other every day?
There is evil and injustice all around the globe every minute of every day, does every non muslim have to stand up and shout from the rooftops every time some redneck in the mountains of Tennessee or sum bogan from Sydney's outer suburbs rapes his children or kills his wife? Crikey..we would never get any sleep.
We expect moderate muslims to stand up every time an extremist group horrifies us but we dont blame every non muslim for the horrors perpetrated from the worst in their society.
I have friends from many different cultural and religious backgrounds and Ive seen more things to be concerned about with dinky di beer swilling bogans than I have ever had of any other group of people close to me.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #155 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:18am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:14am:
Tell that to the 'witch' children in Uganda and Nigeria who are burnt alive and tortured for being possessed. The Evangelicals have plenty of power there. Should we not listen to moderate Christians because of a few nutjobs?

The day Nigerian witchdoctors proselytise their religion beyond the mud huts of their village and gain support from ex-pat Nigerians (and other ex-pat Africans) around the world, to implement a worldwide "Witchdoctor Caliphate" is the day they too should be treated with extreme prejudice.

BTW the murder of albino children in parts of Africa by African witchdoctors, transcends Islamic/Christian religious affiliation.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #156 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:21am
 
Quote:
We have always had Saudi Arabia and, for the last 30+ years, Iran.


Yes agreed, though not as much media attention is given to human rights abuses in those places. And they're a lesser evil than the Taliban when it comes to those rights.


Quote:
I'll bet that our resident Muslim, Abu, nor his idiot sidekick Lestat, won't be adding their voices to your sentiments.


I haven't read much by Lestat, so can't comment. I think a lot of Abu's posts were defensive, and I can relate to that. I don't agree with his views on the Taliban or Bin Laden, if I remember correctly. I'd need to go back and read his posts again.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #157 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:26am
 
Quote:
We expect moderate muslims to stand up every time an extremist group horrifies us but we dont blame every non muslim for the horrors perpetrated from the worst in their society.


Exactly.

Quote:
The day Nigerian witchdoctors proselytise their religion beyond the mud huts of their village and gain support from ex-pat Nigerians (and other ex-pat Africans) around the world, to implement a worldwide "Witchdoctor Caliphate" is the day they too should be treated with extreme prejudice.



As Evangelical Christians, they're doing it in the name of Christianity.

A Caliph is an elected religious leader. You know...like the Pope. As far as I'm aware they're not calling for a takeover of the world.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #158 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:35am
 

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:26am:
A Caliph is an elected religious leader. You know...like the Pope. As far as I'm aware they're not calling for a takeover of the world.


The Western takeover has been inherently insidious and stealthful...

It has been couched in the euphemistic and pseudo-inclusive terms of 'missions', 'aid' and 'globalisation' - and more recently in the divisive progaganda which has spread the myth of 'Islamic Imperialism'...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #159 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:35am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:26am:
Quote:
The day Nigerian witchdoctors proselytise their religion beyond the mud huts of their village and gain support from ex-pat Nigerians (and other ex-pat Africans) around the world, to implement a worldwide "Witchdoctor Caliphate" is the day they too should be treated with extreme prejudice.



As Evangelical Christians, they're doing it in the name of Christianity.

A Caliph is an elected religious leader. You know...like the Pope. As far as I'm aware they're not calling for a takeover of the world.

They do it in the name of Islam too.

A Caliphate is an imperialist, theocratic ideal to which I'm told all "good" Muslims aspire to reconstitute. Iran shows us what such a theocratic entity would do to advance its cause.

The day a contemporary Pope sets out (like his dark ages/medieval predecessors) to reimpose the Vatican's will on all the lands of the world, is the day the Vatican should be and would be abolished as a quasi-state and the Papacy ended.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #160 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:51am
 
Helian, a contemporary Caliphate wouldn't necessarily seek to impose Shariah on the rest of the world. That said, I don't know of any Australian Muslim calling for the election of a Caliph. Do you?

Not saying it doesn't happen - I'm aware of extremism here too.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #161 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:59am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:51am:
Helian, a contemporary Caliphate wouldn't necessarily seek to impose Shariah on the rest of the world. That said, I don't know of any Australian Muslim calling for the election of a Caliph. Do you?

Not saying it doesn't happen - I'm aware of extremism here too.

Wouldn't necessarily? Why not? Muslims are advocating Sharia law worldwide without a Caliphate. How many more Muslims would join the cause for worldwide Sharia law were a theocratic dictatorship to be created?

Aside from being a religion, Islam is an expansionist political system and its imperialist aspirations must be challenged and destroyed, lest we allow Muslims to impose an evil on the world greater than the Iranian theocracy.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #162 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:04pm
 
Quote:
Muslims are advocating Sharia law worldwide without a Caliphate


No. Extremists may advocate global Sharia. I've already explained why moderates do not.

What Australian Muslim has called for Shariah law to be implemented here? 



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #163 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:08pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:04pm:
Quote:
Muslims are advocating Sharia law worldwide without a Caliphate


No. Extremists may advocate global Sharia. I've already explained why moderates do not.

With some degree of success in Europe.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:04pm:
What Australian Muslim has called for Shariah law to be implemented here?  

Our resident practising Muslim here has advocated it (when forced to show his cards) and told us of its widespread popularity among Muslims in Australia.

No doubt he would have been rebuked for his honesty by other Muslims who know better than to abandon deceit before the time is right.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #164 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:15pm
 
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No doubt he would have been rebuked for his honesty by other Muslims who know better than to abandon deceit before the time is right.


Abandon deceit before the time is right? Jesus Christ, Helian - that's absurd. I respect you a lot, but I can see there's no point discussing Islam with you. There's enough evil in the world (including the Islamic one) without imagining things that aren't there.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #165 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:17pm
 
Muslims calling for Sharia law are in the minority in fact so much in the minority they are laughed at within the Muslim communities.
The vast majority of Muslims worldwide do not live under Sharia law and are as horrified by it as are the rest of us.
Im sure there are Christians and Jews who would just love us all the live word for word by the old testament but just like the crazies in the minority in the Muslim world these people are considered a joke.
Dont forget..the west supports one of the most repressive regimes in the world that practices Sharia law and considers its unelected and cruel leaders as allies..Saudi Arabia
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #166 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:22pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:15pm:
Quote:
No doubt he would have been rebuked for his honesty by other Muslims who know better than to abandon deceit before the time is right.


Abandon deceit before the time is right? Jesus Christ, Helian - that's absurd. I respect you a lot, but I can see there's no point discussing Islam with you. There's enough evil in the world (including the Islamic one) without imagining things that aren't there.

Annie, you see Islam only as a religion and not as the expansionist political system it also is.

I was bemused by Waleed Ally's description of Islam on Q&A some time ago. He made it sound more like a new-agey feelgood thing as opposed to the austere religion and political entity it truly is. Why did he feel the need to lie to us about the truth of Islam, I wonder.

I often used to defend our Muslims on this site, until they revealed their hypocrisy and deceit. Far from respecting Australian law, they would see it overturned in a heartbeat for the greater glory of Islam.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #167 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:27pm
 
Quote:
Annie, you see Islam only as a religion and not as the expansionist political system it also is


Yes. I think you're right. I don't know anywhere near as much about the political side of Islam as I do about the religious and this discussion has shown me that I need to fix that. That doesn't change the fact that the average Aussie Muslim wants the same thing for Australia as the rest of us.

Re Aly, it's his interpretation. I doubt he was being deceitful - people who look for the good will find it.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #168 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:28pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:04pm:
Quote:
Muslims are advocating Sharia law worldwide without a Caliphate


No. Extremists may advocate global Sharia. I've already explained why moderates do not.

What Australian Muslim has called for Shariah law to be implemented here?  






There is no extremist and moderate Islam. There are those who submit to Islam fully and those who submit to it only patrtially or not at all.

If you submit to islam in its entirety, you want worldwide sharia and a return of the caliphate.


Now, if you hear a man say " I accept Islam completely but I don't want sharia or the caliphate", you are looking at a liar.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #169 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:29pm
 
adelcrow wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:17pm:
Muslims calling for Sharia law are in the minority in fact so much in the minority they are laughed at within the Muslim communities.
The vast majority of Muslims worldwide do not live under Sharia law and are as horrified by it as are the rest of us.
Im sure there are Christians and Jews who would just love us all the live word for word by the old testament but just like the crazies in the minority in the Muslim world these people are considered a joke.
Dont forget..the west supports one of the most repressive regimes in the world that practices Sharia law and considers its unelected and cruel leaders as allies..Saudi Arabia



Welcome. We need some sanity around here. Good team too. My wife supports them - and any other team except Port. Personally though I follow NRL rather than aerial ping-pong Wink
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #170 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:32pm
 
Quote:
Now, if you hear a man say " I accept Islam completely but I don't want sharia or the caliphate", you are looking at a liar


What about a man who says "I choose to follow Islam but I respect your right not to?"


I'm sorry, Adel. I hope you haven't felt excluded from the discussion. Welcome.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #171 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:33pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:27pm:
Quote:
Annie, you see Islam only as a religion and not as the expansionist political system it also is


Yes. I think you're right. I don't know anywhere near as much about the political side of Islam as I do about the religious and this discussion has shown me that I need to fix that. That doesn't change the fact that the average Aussie Muslim wants the same thing for Australia as the rest of us.

Re Aly, it's his interpretation. I doubt he was being deceitful - people who look for the good will find it.


I know that it takes alot for anyone to become militant... Most of us, Muslim or not, are not naturally militant. However, when your belief system demands militancy and your support network of friends, family and religious acquaintances feel compelled to "take up arms" literally or figuratively, it becomes more quickly a force that will drive the moderate to support the actively militant via the ties of blood/association... or risk the prospect of ostracism.

Waleed Ally is not a fool, but it appeared he felt the need to misrepresent Islam to get along, or get through the show without being excoriated by the likes of Hitchens. That kind of deceit is dangerous and reveals to me that he had something to hide.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #172 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:43pm
 
Quote:
However, when your belief system demands militancy and your support network of friends, family and religious acquaintances feel compelled to "take up arms" literally or figuratively, it becomes more quickly a force that will drive the moderate to support the actively militant via the ties of blood/association... or risk the prospect of ostracism.


Again, I don't see this as a problem in Australia, but I have seen it somewhat in London so I can understand your point. I would argue that a policy of friendship, mutual respect and education would be more effective in combating fundamentalism in the West than any attacks on Islam.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #173 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:53pm
 

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:43pm:
Quote:
However, when your belief system demands militancy and your support network of friends, family and religious acquaintances feel compelled to "take up arms" literally or figuratively, it becomes more quickly a force that will drive the moderate to support the actively militant via the ties of blood/association... or risk the prospect of ostracism.


Again, I don't see this as a problem in Australia, but I have seen it somewhat in London so I can understand your point. I would argue that a policy of friendship, mutual respect and education would be more effective in combating fundamentalism in the West than any attacks on Islam.


Agreed, Annie!

Any approach has gotta be better, than the self-fulfilling, self-escalating and self-perpetuating oxymoronic 'War on Terror' being insidiously-perpetrated on the whole of humanity, by and on be half of a small but powerful group fossil fools!

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« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:58pm by Equitist »  

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #174 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:57pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:32pm:
Quote:
Now, if you hear a man say " I accept Islam completely but I don't want sharia or the caliphate", you are looking at a liar


What about a man who says "I choose to follow Islam but I respect your right not to?"



He is biding his time.

These words are not spoken in islam-dominated places. There you have the right to be a dhimmi, which is by definition a disrespected status.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #175 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:58pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:43pm:
Quote:
However, when your belief system demands militancy and your support network of friends, family and religious acquaintances feel compelled to "take up arms" literally or figuratively, it becomes more quickly a force that will drive the moderate to support the actively militant via the ties of blood/association... or risk the prospect of ostracism.


Again, I don't see this as a problem in Australia, but I have seen it somewhat in London so I can understand your point. I would argue that a policy of friendship, mutual respect and education would be more effective in combating fundamentalism in the West than any attacks on Islam.

Policies of friendship, mutual respect and education should be a given. However, those policies will not depoliticise Islam, nor abate the calls for Sharia or the Caliphate. Only our refusal to allow these evils to infest the nation will hold Islam in check.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #176 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 12:18am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:04pm:
Quote:
Muslims are advocating Sharia law worldwide without a Caliphate


What Australian Muslim has called for Shariah law to be implemented here?  



Australian Muslim!!
This Australian convert and his happy band of followers;
http://www.youtube.com/isciae

Conlon is well conected to ASWJ (Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamah) and they are about to hold a conference in Melbourne next week.
One of the guest speakers at that conference will be the so called sheihk, Feiz mohammad!, remember him?

Lets not also forget, the Australian devotees of H/T.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #177 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 8:59am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 7:43pm:
"No. A person cannot be oppressed into believing anything."

- Annie

That's actually incorrect Annie.

I've survived long term middle class domestic violence at the hands of a well connected and well resourced ex husband who was twice my age. I met him at age 20 (when he was 40) and the 5 yr marriage which followed was riddled with emotional, physical and sexual violence. However .. everything he did to me was apparently "normal" and I had the problem (his words to me each day).

By age 25 I believed what I was told .. that I had serious physical health issues which affected my hair and skin. My hair couldn't grow beyond a bob and my skin bruised too easily so I reasoned within myself that I needed to protect my sensitive skin and hair by covering my head with a scarf and my body with lots of clothes.

I felt safest when dressed this way and it helped me cope with being such an an "old" and "ugly" 25 yr old lady  (again .. his words to me each day).

It was difficult going outside .. and on the rare occasions where I was allowed to .. eg to pay bills and do shopping .. I found myself hiding behind my husband and looking only at the ground.

On one such occasion I bumped into a former friend at the post office who seemed surprised to see me. Apparently I had changed a lot.

She asked me a few questions regarding my law career, my church (I was well known in church circles for my singing/music abilities), my family and friends .. and I found myself saying .. Oh I didn't finish my law degree because I'd be pretty hopeless as a lawyer and I no longer work because I'm lucky to have a husband who gives me money when I ask him for it. I even stated that my family and friends were no longer in my life because they only wanted to interfere with my marriage so it was best that they stayed away.

This former friend hugged me and then quietly took to visiting me when my husband was at work. She proved to be my life line.

I could go on about the mess I was in .. but the point of my post is this: I was able to extricate myself from a dysfunctional 5 year "marriage" and get some urgent counselling. These counselling sessions helped me UNLEARN concepts which were imposed on me whilst oppressed .. and which I had come to accept and believe in.

I learned simple things like being in your late 20's does NOT mean you are old .. and that if you can manage workplace budgets of 2 million dollars (at the time of my marriage I was responsible for such a budget) then that probably means you aren't hopeless after all.

Oh and as regards my hair and skin?? Seems I believed what I was told at the time by my husband .. ie that I had some genetic weakness which made my hair unable to grow and my skin bruise so easily. Well .. I discovered over time with counselling that if your husband doesn't pull you by the hair and drag you round the house until half your hair rips off in clumps AND if he doesn't grab you violently and throw you onto windows/walls/furniture .. smashing whatever you land on .. your hair and skin will be just fine!

It took me 10 years to recover from 5 years of what appeared to be normal to me. I had no idea I was a victim of violence .. because each day was consistent and after a while I believed that everything that was happening to me was indeed "normal" as my husband kept repeating to me. Besides .. my husband was well educated, wealthy and well respected .. so whatever he said to me was the truth.  

You know .. I went back to uni (even though my ex husband reminded me each day that I was too DUMB and STUPID for study) .. and you wouldn't believe it .. despite me being so unintelligent .. I was STILL able to qualify for a couple of degrees!

I've regained the support and contact of my loving and caring family and friends and above all else .. I've regained my sense of independence and freedom to THINK and FEEL whatever I want to.

I'm in my late 30's now .. and with the passage of time (as well as counselling and lifestyle changes) I can now talk about what happened. It's all ancient history as far as I am concerned and I've moved on and up.

Nedless to say .. I've NEVER looked back!

I trust the above clarifies why I disagree with your perspective Annie. It is indeed possible to be oppressed and whilst oppressed to believe anything you're told.


Sorry to take so long in reply but thankyou Lisa for this personal story. I have been quite busy the last few days. I have witnessed the same thing through friends of friends. I am so glad you were finally able to triumph. I can only imagine the strength you have within you now.

What you say is a great example of the type of accepted abuse that can take the disquise of the normal. Hell they even find in hostage situations the number of times the victim starts to synpathise with the hostage takers.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #178 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:11am
 
Lisa - you poor thing. I missed your post, but just noticed it when Locutious quoted it. It's so sad that part of your life was ruined in that way. At least those days are over now for you.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #179 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:18am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:58pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 27th, 2010 at 12:43pm:
Quote:
However, when your belief system demands militancy and your support network of friends, family and religious acquaintances feel compelled to "take up arms" literally or figuratively, it becomes more quickly a force that will drive the moderate to support the actively militant via the ties of blood/association... or risk the prospect of ostracism.


Again, I don't see this as a problem in Australia, but I have seen it somewhat in London so I can understand your point. I would argue that a policy of friendship, mutual respect and education would be more effective in combating fundamentalism in the West than any attacks on Islam.

Policies of friendship, mutual respect and education should be a given. However, those policies will not depoliticise Islam, nor abate the calls for Sharia or the Caliphate. Only our refusal to allow these evils to infest the nation will hold Islam in check.


Exactly...The other thing about this political system called Islam is the authority that is, according to other Muslims that have posted here, automatic, autocratic and universially recognised and the obligations of obediance that are inherited by followers of Islam and a Caliphate.

This is the type of authority/obedience that thankfully has long since dissapperaed from the Pope/Christendom. BUT if it were to reemerge than I would treat those Christians as just as big a threat and enemy to secular political systems as I currently view Islam in it's potential.

There are statements, for the finding, here at this website where Australian born Muslims have admitted that a Caliphate would by virtue of their faith, be recognised as a superceeding authority to all other human authorities that they currently recognise and they would be obliged to follow such authority.

The fact that they follow a path of living peacefully within other political systems is applied in the absence of the Caliphate or with the Caliphate's approval. So in the meantime they enjoy the safety and benefits of a stable democratic (flawed) society but the loyalty to which is expediant and whimsical.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #180 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:30am
 

Wow Lisa, such a harrowing history. Kudos for your personal triumphs against extreme adversity!

Unfortunately, insidious oppression humiliation and alienation are part-and-parcel of most domestic violence - and 'victims' often buy into taking the blame - even making serial excuses - for their partner's extraordinary behaviour...

Again, kudos to you, Lisa!  Wink

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #181 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:39am
 

It is encouraging, to read such diverse comments on a 'Western' political board such as this...

Sadly and ironically, some of the most extreme comments come from people who seek to paint 'Islam' as homogenously extremist...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #182 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:22am
 
locutius wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:18am:
Exactly...The other thing about this political system called Islam is the authority that is, according to other Muslims that have posted here, automatic, autocratic and universially recognised and the obligations of obediance that are inherited by followers of Islam and a Caliphate.


IMHO, the Muslims who have posted here are not exactly representative of the whole. Converts to any world view generally get the wrong end of the stick and go off like a headless chook.

What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden.

- and if you believe that Muslims don't make friends outside their faiths, well I know for a fact that it's not true.  

You've been given a bum steer, mate.  Most Muslims would not agree with them.

It's no worse than Roman Catholicism.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #183 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:26am
 

I shudder to think...how a 'Muslim' with extreme tendencies might selectively interpret 'Western' values, after reading our media - and forums such as these...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #184 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:33am
 
Equitist wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:39am:
It is encouraging, to read such diverse comments on a 'Western' political board such as this...

Sadly and ironically, some of the most extreme comments come from people who seek to paint 'Islam' as homogenously extremist...



Thy, are you able to provide contradictory information concerning Islam as a political system. I can think of a few individuals on this site that have altered their perceptions of Islam THROUGH this site THROUGH discussion, debate and questions put to some of the Muslim posters here.

It would be labourous to pour though some of these old debates but I will try to find time to see what I can find as examples. Visit the Islam board and bump a few topics if you want...most of us were exhausted by some of the disputes/debates but with so many new members it might breath new life and understanding into them.

We did have a wave of Muslim posters for about a week but disappointingly they disappeared very quickly. They were hit with enthusiastic rudeness by some small minded posters but there was also plenty of enthusiastic genuine enquiry being made as well by others. Not sure which drove them off, the bad manners or the scrutiny.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #185 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:43am
 

muso - Quote:
IMHO, the Muslims who have posted here are not exactly representative of the whole. Converts to any world view generally get the wrong end of the stick.

What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden.

- and if you believe that Muslims don't make friends outside their faiths, well I know for a fact that it's not true. 

You've been given a bum steer, mate.  Most Muslims would not agree with them.

It's no worse than Roman Catholicism.



so, we were just "unlucky" and the ones who stoutly defended and explained their beliefs had it wrong ?
same as many other muslims worldwide?
well, maybe the moderates should teach the extremists what is right.
Oh - the extremist get it from the koran and have read and reread the koran for many many years, if not decades.
same as the moderates have.

so, how many wives did mohammad have ?
and how many sex slaves?
how many people did he  murder?
did he encourage and reward assassainations ?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #186 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 11:17am
 
Nice piece of music for you, Sprint.  I alway enjoyed Mahler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asnZ_4f5ZA

Of course, we should believe our resident Muslims, shouldn't we?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #187 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 11:47am
 

I'm not interested in sarcasm or asides.

course we should believe in those that call themselves muslims, unless we have genune reason to disbelieve them.

say what you mean
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #188 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 12:01pm
 
muso wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 11:17am:
Nice piece of music for you, Sprint.  I alway enjoyed Mahler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asnZ_4f5ZA

Of course, we should believe our resident Muslims, shouldn't we?


I've said before that the Celts and Muslims produce some of the most haunting beautiful music I have ever heard so by all means recommend some. Maybe a new topic in "Chat" I would start it but I haven't got anything to kick it of...except something from my favourite album Soundgardens "Super Unknown"
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #189 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 1:32pm
 
Quote:
What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden


In Islam there is the Quran and Hadith. The Quran is the word of God, and the Hadith are narrations by the companions of Muhammad and were compiled after his death -  in some cases hundreds of years after.  Stoning for adultery, the forbidding of music etc - these are all Hadith. Shia and Sunni Muslims have different Hadith, but all have the same Quran. Many Hadith contradict the Quran.

Suicide bombings are forbidden by the Quran, but extremists manage to twist Hadith to suit their own purposes. Most of the Talibani laws were based on Hadith, as are those in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.

Here are some verses from the Quran relating to suicide:

Quote:
(2:195) You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

(4:29) O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.


Cat Stevens (Yusef Islam) bought into the 'music is forbidden' thing for years. Only recently has he started using guitar and other instruments in his singing.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #190 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 1:34pm
 
Muso, did Abu defend Bin Laden by saying that it was okay to blow up innocent people, or did he defend him by saying that he wasn't behind the attacks?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #191 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 1:35pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 11:47am:
I'm not interested in sarcasm or asides.

course we should believe in those that call themselves muslims, unless we have genune reason to disbelieve them.

say what you mean


The point I was making was that one of our resident Muslims made the point that music is discouraged by Islam, but we know for a fact that orchestras and even pop music are very popular throughout the Muslim world. Tune into any radio station in Indonesia and you'll see what I mean.

The same applies to the idea of a worldwide caliphate. Some Muslims have such a political agenda, but it's not exactly true of that nice waitress who serves you up nasi goreng or the guy you buy your kebabs from.

Doesn't it strike you as strange that a Muslim would be banned from Muslim village? What does that tell you about their ideas?

It's like saying that all Catholics are weirdo s&m fanatics because you heard it from an Opus Dei follower. Well - they're Catholic aren't they?  
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #192 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 1:39pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 1:34pm:
Muso, did Abu defend Bin Laden by saying that it was okay to blow up innocent people, or did he defend him by saying that he wasn't behind the attacks?


Mostly the latter - that it was propaganda, but he also hinted that the West do worse things, (and presumably that made it ok).

I don't particularly want to search for the post, because it makes me sick.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #193 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 3:01pm
 
Just adding my 2-bits worth, nothing more, unless requested.

Fashion = Spirituality
The Spiritual industry tends to work alongside the Religious industry. Of the 3 Monotheisms (Judaism, Christianity & Mohomeddism), Mohomeddism tends to be the more 'Spiritual' or 'fashionable'.
Fashion: a physical state of being expressed through 'attirement'.

Seems that Religion/Spirituality was 'created' in the Middle-East.
Wait, there's more...
But it takes the rest of the world to make it 'evolve'.
There's a spanner too! Wink

Saying this, the Moslem Burqa is a very acceptable fashion
...only in Religious and Spiritual places.
EG: I was working in a Private Hospital (the type that doesn't have to be subordinate to Religion and its masses of paperwork, Politics and its 'pro-discrimination /anti freedom-of-choice litigations, the military and its 'real men are in the army ...cuz I was a Male Nurse, who just happened to give it to a female Colonel for a few weeks) that only practices subordination to the Accountants and their Managment in the name of ripping everyone off !
A few Moslems came into our Hospital and start 'telling us' what we should be doing. I stated that "...we can only practice Medicine because thats what we are here for and although we will try to respect peoples wishes, for whatever reason, we give the priority to Medical needs. So your wife will have to remove the Burqa for identification and clarity of expression, especially if she doesn't speak the International Language of English very well, if at all. If she refuses to do so, then I will have to ask her to leave and take her business elsewhere, as this is not a Holy or Spiritual place. I think it is highly possible though that I can allow her to have female staff attend only, even though she is over 40 years of age, as we are adequately staffed."
I guess my remark, made the husband and family attending realise that there really was no point in arguing and the Burqa was removed, though the curtain drawn.

I respect a person's need for privacy and 'personal space'. The USA Government has its CIA and all its secrets and privacy hidden under those letters, so its only fitting, that besides the Political Industry having something to hide (doesn't matter if things are feminine or masculine), then the Spiritual (and to a lesser extent, Religion) could do so too. Working as a male nurse in my very 'surgical' Blue (because blood doesn't show as much : see Art 'moving colours') and my sense of 'spirituality', especially when treating people with Depression (feeling blue), was a 'comfortable' feeling.
Spirituality (Fashion) is a very important Industry...
A man may be Black of Skin, but by 'spiritually' wearing 'Green', he can feel comfortable and respected for being an Environmentalist or a Military personel.

I hope this clarifies a few things towards a more constructive debate topic as I believe this is a very important issue for Australia.

Am I bias? Living near Camden, I have nothing against the Islamic Religion setting up schools. I don't like how Christians try to use 'Anti-Islamic' feelings to justify their own causes and effects in that area of outer-Sydney ...especially when the Islamic Religion expresses 'the Land' more than Christianity (which expresses 'Healing') does ...and thats saying that Camden has always been a proud and strong Farming area. In the end, I think Hurlestone Park Agricultural School should transfer to Camden, and leave the 'burbs behind.

Conclusion: Keep the Burqa (the Ned Kelly look), but only in Religious and Spiritual places of worship and practice.

Wink
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #194 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 6:17pm
 
muso wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:22am:
locutius wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:18am:
Exactly...The other thing about this political system called Islam is the authority that is, according to other Muslims that have posted here, automatic, autocratic and universially recognised and the obligations of obediance that are inherited by followers of Islam and a Caliphate.


IMHO, the Muslims who have posted here are not exactly representative of the whole. Converts to any world view generally get the wrong end of the stick and go off like a headless chook.

What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden.

- and if you believe that Muslims don't make friends outside their faiths, well I know for a fact that it's not true.  

You've been given a bum steer, mate.  Most Muslims would not agree with them.

It's no worse than Roman Catholicism.


You are confusing Islam with Muslims. Everyone is a hyporcrit. There is a Muslim guy at work who seems to do everything wrong. This doesn't mean Islam is a laid back ideology. He acknowledges himself as a 'bad' Muslim. Which makes me wonder what he would do if people he regarded as 'good' Muslims started asking him to do bad things. It's like it was designed to get the Hitlers to flaot to the top.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #195 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 8:10pm
 
Upon A Current Affair tonight, there was Fred Nile walking the streets of a very 'muslimised' suburb in Sydney, telling Muslims that he was pushing for legislation for 'Banning the Burqa'.
Now this is where I get embarressed to be an Australian.
Besides seeing a bigotted man use Christianity to his own ends, I see him/Christianity use 'Politics' against Mohommedism ...specifically those in Sydney. Here goes the same old 'Religious Conflict' between the Monotheisms, this time, over here in Oz.
How dare Christians exploit other people's views to their own ends.
Where do they get off thinking that everyone else shares their 'Christian views/beliefs/etc' ?
Maybe they are jealous of all the attention that the Islamic community are getting and are feeling left out ?
None-the-less I think Fred Nile and Christians should be 'banned' from something that doesn't involve them.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #196 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:10am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 1:32pm:
Quote:
What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden


In Islam there is the Quran and Hadith. The Quran is the word of God, and the Hadith are narrations by the companions of Muhammad and were compiled after his death -  in some cases hundreds of years after.  Stoning for adultery, the forbidding of music etc - these are all Hadith. Shia and Sunni Muslims have different Hadith, but all have the same Quran. Many Hadith contradict the Quran.

Suicide bombings are forbidden by the Quran, but extremists manage to twist Hadith to suit their own purposes. Most of the Talibani laws were based on Hadith, as are those in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.

Here are some verses from the Quran relating to suicide:

Quote:
(2:195) You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

(4:29) O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.


Cat Stevens (Yusef Islam) bought into the 'music is forbidden' thing for years. Only recently has he started using guitar and other instruments in his singing.




This is something that was also debated extensively...how can a human document contradict a accepted (supposedly) devine document. In every case shouldn't the human document bow unequivocally to the document of higher authority....therefore there can be no real contradiction.

And yet, and yet these grey areas repeatedly crop up allowing a wide range of tribal behaviours within Islam and recieving no criticism from the inside as a matter of doctrine.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #197 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 10:16am
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 8:10pm:
Upon A Current Affair tonight, there was Fred Nile walking the streets of a very 'muslimised' suburb in Sydney, telling Muslims that he was pushing for legislation for 'Banning the Burqa'.
Now this is where I get embarressed to be an Australian.
Besides seeing a bigotted man use Christianity to his own ends, I see him/Christianity use 'Politics' against Mohommedism ...specifically those in Sydney. Here goes the same old 'Religious Conflict' between the Monotheisms, this time, over here in Oz.
How dare Christians exploit other people's views to their own ends.
Where do they get off thinking that everyone else shares their 'Christian views/beliefs/etc' ?
Maybe they are jealous of all the attention that the Islamic community are getting and are feeling left out ?
None-the-less I think Fred Nile and Christians should be 'banned' from something that doesn't involve them.


As much as I'd like to see Fred Nile banned from leaving his house. He is free to speak his mind and luckily at least show us what a complete and utter wanker actually look like.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #198 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:15am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 6:17pm:
muso wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 10:22am:
locutius wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 9:18am:
Exactly...The other thing about this political system called Islam is the authority that is, according to other Muslims that have posted here, automatic, autocratic and universially recognised and the obligations of obediance that are inherited by followers of Islam and a Caliphate.


IMHO, the Muslims who have posted here are not exactly representative of the whole. Converts to any world view generally get the wrong end of the stick and go off like a headless chook.

What set my alarm bells going was the fact that he thought music should be banned and defended Osama Bin Laden.

- and if you believe that Muslims don't make friends outside their faiths, well I know for a fact that it's not true.  

You've been given a bum steer, mate.  Most Muslims would not agree with them.

It's no worse than Roman Catholicism.


You are confusing Islam with Muslims. Everyone is a hyporcrit. There is a Muslim guy at work who seems to do everything wrong. This doesn't mean Islam is a laid back ideology. He acknowledges himself as a 'bad' Muslim. Which makes me wonder what he would do if people he regarded as 'good' Muslims started asking him to do bad things. It's like it was designed to get the Hitlers to flaot to the top.


Ok, fair enough. So would you take the same approach for Christianity? Let's not be guilty of confusing Christians with Christianity. Judge it as it is written, not as it's practiced? It's only fair if that's how you're going to treat Islam.

And while you're at it, get the most extremist Christian whacko fundamentalist possible to interpret the Bible. Then you'd probably find that when it comes to present the looney tunes nut-job grand prize, it would be actually be very difficult to pick a clear winner between the two branches of Abrahamic monotheism.

If you really want to emulate the forum, you should really get a Muslim (or even a Militant Atheist) to give a distorted view of Christianity and quote it totally out of context.

No. That wouldn't be fair, would it?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #199 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 6:50pm
 
Quote:
Ok, fair enough. So would you take the same approach for Christianity? Let's not be guilty of confusing Christians with Christianity. Judge it as it is written, not as it's practiced? It's only fair if that's how you're going to treat Islam.


Actually, I prefer to judge both by the ideology as it is defined by the followers. There is all sorts of strange things in the Koran. Instead, I asked Abu about it. What he said caused me a lot of concern.

My point in bringing this up is that it is the Islamic ideology, not Muslims directly, that we have been criticising.

Quote:
And while you're at it, get the most extremist Christian whacko fundamentalist possible to interpret the Bible. Then you'd probably find that when it comes to present the looney tunes nut-job grand prize, it would be actually be very difficult to pick a clear winner between the two branches of Abrahamic monotheism.


The difference is that you don't get mainstream Christians calling themselves 'bad' Christians in comparison to the lunatics and waiting for one of these whackjobs to sieze control so that they can be forced into line. It is not just the extremisim of people like Abu that is the problem, it is the sheer number of them, and the fact that the moderates defer to them rather than keeping them in line. Abu does not come across as a lunatic. He goes to great lengths to conceal the extremism of his views. He is rational enough despite his belief to realise which bits of it we ought to be shielded from.

Quote:
No. That wouldn't be fair, would it?


Which is why I asked an actual Muslim about Islam.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #200 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 7:32pm
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jun 29th, 2010 at 8:10pm:
Upon A Current Affair tonight, there was Fred Nile walking the streets of a very 'muslimised' suburb in Sydney, telling Muslims that he was pushing for legislation for 'Banning the Burqa'.
Now this is where I get embarressed to be an Australian.
Besides seeing a bigotted man use Christianity to his own ends, I see him/Christianity use 'Politics' against Mohommedism ...specifically those in Sydney. Here goes the same old 'Religious Conflict' between the Monotheisms, this time, over here in Oz.
How dare Christians exploit other people's views to their own ends.
Where do they get off thinking that everyone else shares their 'Christian views/beliefs/etc' ?
Maybe they are jealous of all the attention that the Islamic community are getting and are feeling left out ?
None-the-less I think Fred Nile and Christians should be 'banned' from something that doesn't involve them.



It is absolutely the most embarrassing thing, to have wackos like Fred Niles pushing for a cause that you believe is right, because that gets the cause marginalised as being in the realm of the wackos, when this particular issue should not be.
The thing about banning the burqa, is wrong, it should just be a general rule about not going masked in public, and balaclavas, or people walking down the street in full face helmets, would fall under the same ban.

It is just about people showing enough respect and consideration for their fellow citizens, to accept face to face contact as a fair and reasonable expectation, in a free and open society.

I would be equally affronted by christians wearing face coverings as anyone else, as this is most definitely not a religious question for me.
The fact that the resistance comes from a group that is religious, some of whom seek to isolate it's female members from any face to face contact, is not irrelevant, but it is neither the determining factor either.
It is the behaviour of this group that has brought this issue to a head.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #201 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 7:35pm
 
I don't have an issue with face covering either. It is fine for skiing, or getting around on a motorbike, or fancy dress, or breaking and entering, so why not as a religious expression also?

There are very clear boundaries where face covering is specifically prhibited and this is justified. A blanket ban is not. Otherwise we will end up needing a licence to wear sunglasses. Carefull what you wish for.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #202 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 8:00pm
 
Sorry FD, but we have been well and truly over this, facial contact is normal in our society, wearing masks is not.
Ours society already sets rules for standards of dress, and we all accept those, but now we have to address this new issue of masking one's face in public because a new set of migrants has said, once more, that we should make special allowances for them, that we should change our sensibilities to suit them, that we should respect their values above our own, and I do not go along with that.

If catholic nuns masked up, my objections would be the same.

I also disagree with the contention that any well balanced human being would ever feel the need to mask up in public, and the claim of it being a woman's choice is a fallacious argument.
If it were just a choice that a person may choose of their own free will, then it's prevalence would not be restricted to a small number of females from one particular religious group.

Their reasoning is that they feel less "perved on" if they are masked up.
It certainly does not make them less "looked at", because publicly declaring your separateness, and difference from the society you are in, by masking up, would actually draw more looks than being just another face in the crowd.
So their wearing a mask is a statement from them that all men will have sexual intentions towards them, if they see their faces, and I find that argument pretty uncompelling.

I firmly believe that men imposed this dress code onto women they considered as possessions, a very long time ago, and people who cling to this anachronistic custom, are helping to isolate and subjugate women, either intentionally, or unintentionally.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #203 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 9:04pm
 
Quote:
Sorry FD, but we have been well and truly over this, facial contact is normal in our society, wearing masks is not.


So we have the freedom to be normal, but not to be wierd?

Quote:
Ours society already sets rules for standards of dress, and we all accept those, but now we have to address this new issue of masking one's face in public because a new set of migrants has said, once more, that we should make special allowances for them


It is not special. It is a fundamental human right. Our society has never had a rule banning face masks, except in very specific circumstances where it is justified.

Quote:
that we should change our sensibilities to suit them


WTF?

Quote:
I also disagree with the contention that any well balanced human being would ever feel the need to mask up in public


So freedom should only be extended to the 'well balanced'?

Quote:
and the claim of it being a woman's choice is a fallacious argument


I agree. Women are incapable making their own decision and need a man to tell them what to do. But what if a man wants to mask up, or dress as a woman?

Quote:
Their reasoning is that they feel less "perved on" if they are masked up.


So you think we should only grant people freedom if you approve of their motives? How do you know what motivates Muslim women, and how do you know they are all the same?

Quote:
It certainly does not make them less "looked at", because publicly declaring your separateness, and difference from the society you are in, by masking up, would actually draw more looks than being just another face in the crowd.


I'm sure they would appreciate your concern. Another man telling them how to live their life.

Quote:
So their wearing a mask is a statement from them that all men will have sexual intentions towards them, if they see their faces, and I find that argument pretty uncompelling.


So now they need to make a compelling argument to maintain their rights? BTW, you have read an aweful lot into their actions. Has it ever occurred to you to simply ask these women why they do it, rather than telling them? It's really not that hard. Surely it is the least you could do before destroying their rights.

Quote:
I firmly believe that men imposed this dress code onto women they considered as possessions, a very long time ago, and people who cling to this anachronistic custom, are helping to isolate and subjugate women, either intentionally, or unintentionally.


So you want to deny them freedom because their choice subjugates women? Isn't this the exact same argument Abu makes for banning women from wearing revealing clothing? What makes you think it sounds any more convincing coming from you?

Choose any item of clothing, and no doubt a man has forced a woman to wear it. Since when is that a valid reason for banning women from wearing it in order to protect them from men who would tell them what they can and cannot wear?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #204 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 9:09pm
 
Do any of you realise how smug an sanctimonious you sound, telling women what they can and cannot wear because you think it is protecting them from men who would tell them what they can and cannot wear?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #205 - Jun 30th, 2010 at 11:51pm
 
Well while you are sticking up for freedom, for freedom's sake, maybe you could also campaign for a man's right to beat his wife, if she accepts it of her own free will. Grin
It is obviously her right to give her husband the right to treat her that way, if she so chooses, and how dare we in this country try and impose our standards onto them.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #206 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 8:11am
 

I wonder if france, denmark and sweden could turn the clock back 20 years that they would ban the burqa, minarets and make immigration to those who will NOT assimilate very much harder ?

I think they would.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #207 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 9:47am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2010 at 6:50pm:
It is not just the extremisim of people like Abu that is the problem, it is the sheer number of them, and the fact that the moderates defer to them rather than keeping them in line. Abu does not come across as a lunatic. He goes to great lengths to conceal the extremism of his views. He is rational enough despite his belief to realise which bits of it we ought to be shielded from.


I agree with most of what you say there, but if he's so deferred to by the bulk of Muslims, why do you think he was banned from Muslim Village?

I know quite a few Muslims in Africa, and without exception, they would certainly not defend some of these extremist views, particularly the one about banning all music, which I find appalling.  

There are extremist clerics, but most Muslims distance themselves from them. I spent some time in Indonesia. It's a very tolerant society, though dominated by Islam.  I talked to a few people over lunch and the subject changed to Amrozi, the Bali bomber. They all agreed that this guy had a few marbles loose, and it was obviously not a show for my benefit. Extremist Muslims are certainly not welcomed by the bulk of ordinary Indonesians, and the same goes for the Gulf countries.  I've never been to Yemen though.  

If you want to know how a religion is practiced, don't ask the Imams or the Priests - or the newly converted who are keen to show what good Muslims they are in their own misguided way.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #208 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 10:20am
 
muso ????????

Quote:
.......If you want to know how a religion is practiced, don't ask the Imams or the Priests ........


surely those that have studied it have the best idea of HOW is should be practised?
you are saying, the majority have it wrong ?
surely some from muslim village should ahve come here to discuss.
No, they run a closed shop there and they offer up prayers for terrorists.
I call that support.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #209 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 11:21am
 
A moslem woman was shot in the knee-caps today at Bendigo.
...some things never change. Wink
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #210 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 11:30am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 1st, 2010 at 10:20am:
muso ????????

Quote:
.......If you want to know how a religion is practiced, don't ask the Imams or the Priests ........


surely those that have studied it have the best idea of HOW is should be practised?
you are saying, the majority have it wrong ?
surely some from muslim village should ahve come here to discuss.
No, they run a closed shop there and they offer up prayers for terrorists.
I call that support.


How a religion 'should be' practiced and how it is practiced are totally different things.

The majority of Christians, and the majority of Muslims probably have it right. In other words, don't take it too seriously. Pay more attention to real life.

Those who have studied religion generally know what they are talking about - theologists that is.  That's why most of them are closet atheists.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #211 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 11:41am
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jul 1st, 2010 at 11:21am:
A moslem woman was shot in the knee-caps today at Bendigo.
...some things never change. Wink


I don't know what that means.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #212 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 11:47am
 

muso - so, a religion should be "graded" on how most people use it ?
whatever it says, who cares about that ?

or it should be rated on what it says ? the truth of it?

nice corner you painted yourself into, any muslim would never do that.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #213 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 12:13pm
 
Quote:
How a religion 'should be' practiced and how it is practiced are totally different things.

The majority of Christians, and the majority of Muslims probably have it right. In other words, don't take it too seriously. Pay more attention to real life.

Those who have studied religion generally know what they are talking about - theologists that is.  That's why most of them are closet atheists.
-muso

Of course what you say is true, most people can separate their religious beliefs from their daily life, and the les that they do so, the more problematic they become.

The problem with religion is that at some point we may see an event trigger a unified response from those conditioned to believe the delusional dogma they learned from imams, priests, or preachers.

The Islamist hysteria that swept through Iran at the time of Khomeinis return, is a perfect example, where people who had lived pretty secular lives got swept along on a wave of religious fundamentalism.

Those same people are now paying the price for their folly, but the fact remains that if another trigger were to occur, just how far would we see these formerly "normal" religious folk go?

Alternately look at it from a Christian perspective, with all those fundamentalists across the southern and inland parts of the USA, almost all armed to the teeth, and almost to a man believing that the rapture will occur in their lifetime.
What could happen if some event was interpreted by some charismatic leader as the signal for the beginning of the End Days?
We could expect to see some pretty outrageous behaviour from people who previously were just "moms, and dads", turning into Rambo style Christian soldiers.

So while these religious folk do seem to pretty much go with the flow of our society, the fact remains that they have all been indoctrinated to believe some very weird stuff, and if they are encouraged to take action by some extremist nutjobs, they very likely will.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #214 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 1:29pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 1st, 2010 at 11:47am:
muso - so, a religion should be "graded" on how most people use it ?
whatever it says, who cares about that ?

or it should be rated on what it says ? the truth of it?

nice corner you painted yourself into, any muslim would never do that.


LOL - There is no' truth' in it - it's just a personal viewpoint.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #215 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 1:36pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 1st, 2010 at 12:13pm:
Quote:
How a religion 'should be' practiced and how it is practiced are totally different things.

The majority of Christians, and the majority of Muslims probably have it right. In other words, don't take it too seriously. Pay more attention to real life.

Those who have studied religion generally know what they are talking about - theologists that is.  That's why most of them are closet atheists.
-muso

Of course what you say is true, most people can separate their religious beliefs from their daily life, and the les that they do so, the more problematic they become.

The problem with religion is that at some point we may see an event trigger a unified response from those conditioned to believe the delusional dogma they learned from imams, priests, or preachers.

The Islamist hysteria that swept through Iran at the time of Khomeinis return, is a perfect example, where people who had lived pretty secular lives got swept along on a wave of religious fundamentalism.

Those same people are now paying the price for their folly, but the fact remains that if another trigger were to occur, just how far would we see these formerly "normal" religious folk go?

Alternately look at it from a Christian perspective, with all those fundamentalists across the southern and inland parts of the USA, almost all armed to the teeth, and almost to a man believing that the rapture will occur in their lifetime.
What could happen if some event was interpreted by some charismatic leader as the signal for the beginning of the End Days?
We could expect to see some pretty outrageous behaviour from people who previously were just "moms, and dads", turning into Rambo style Christian soldiers.

So while these religious folk do seem to pretty much go with the flow of our society, the fact remains that they have all been indoctrinated to believe some very weird stuff, and if they are encouraged to take action by some extremist nutjobs, they very likely will.


Exactly the same can be said about those Religions called Republicanism and Democratism in the USA, and it scares me the way people in Australia take their lead, using such language as rightard and leftard with totally toxic language directed towards Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott. We're supposed to be civilised around here, but more and more people are starting to act like Yankees, and are becoming vehement beyond any common decency.

You are pleading a special case for religion. You could say the same about communism, or any system of thought that aligns people along certain principles.

When people act en masse, they can be very scary indeed. I tend to distance myself from the mob thinking of the Leftards, the Rightards, Evanglical Christians and extremist Muslims. (No - not all Muslims are extremist. They are human beings just like you)

I prefer instead to use my head rather than play follow the leader (baaaa).
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #216 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 2:31pm
 
Muso, that's the most sane post I've seen here in ages. Excellent points.

Even the anti-religionists are black and white in their thinking and full of pious zeal - particularly when they talk about Islam, a subject most of them know very little about.

I'll admit myself - I know very little about Islam, and don't have a lot of curiousity about it. To be honest, I don't find it all that interesting - and I don't find it interesting because I don't know much about it.

Hatred clouds your ability to be skeptical and try to see things for what they are. From what I've seen here, Islam is just an object for hatred - an excuse. If the internet existed forty years ago, the target would have been the domino theory and Vietnamese communists.

If you can overcome fear and hatred, you have less need for enemies, foreign and domestic. If you need enemies, you'll find them - under your bed if not on the other side of the globe.

Many have just found a very superficial and convenient target for their anxiety: Islam. Why not target the anxiety itself?

Too hard. It's much easier when it's them.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #217 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 1:56am
 

Sorry, should have clarified ....the name 'Ned Kelly' ring a bell?
(its a poor joke, but a nice one)

Basically, what I'm saying: Don't worry about 'Banning the Burqa' or passing Legislation...chances are, Moslem women are finding it tough as it is, being who they are in the Burqa - here in Australia.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #218 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 2:14am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 1st, 2010 at 2:31pm:
Many have just found a very superficial and convenient target for their anxiety: Islam. Why not target the anxiety itself?

Too hard. It's much easier when it's them.


Applause!!!!!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #219 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 7:57am
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 1:56am:
Sorry, should have clarified ....the name 'Ned Kelly' ring a bell?
(its a poor joke, but a nice one)

Basically, what I'm saying: Don't worry about 'Banning the Burqa' or passing Legislation...chances are, Moslem women are finding it tough as it is, being who they are in the Burqa - here in Australia.



I knew exactly what you meant and had a little chuckle to myself. I like rye humour.

You're right. Eventually they will probably cast off the Muslim Borg ... and assimilate themselves with the Australian Borg.

I remember reading a book once. I wish I could remember the title. It involves a planet where every movement by every citizen is synchronised with a master robot.

Near the beginning, there is a small child bouncing a ball - out of synch, and he is whisked away to be adjusted so that society once more becomes 100% harmonious.

It would be a disaster if we ever had a society where individual freedoms were repressed like that. Utopia is anathema to personal freedom.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #220 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 8:06am
 
Quote:
Near the beginning, there is a small child bouncing a ball - out of synch, and he is whisked away to be adjusted so that society once more becomes 100% harmonious.

It would be a disaster if we ever had a society where individual freedoms were repressed like that. Utopia is anathema to personal freedom.


Sounds like a book that I'd like to read. Of course, I agree with the concept from the outset.
I hope that small child chose to take drugs in protest. Therewith we can protect our children  Huh





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #221 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 8:08am
 
Of course some people get far too extreme in their reactions to perceived threats, but that alone does not nullify the fact that a real threat can exist.
Like muso said, we face all sorts of threats to our freedoms and way of life, and we saw real steps against personal freedoms legislated in the USA in their response to the Terrorist threat, and that was a Democratic Government taking that action, so muso is right to point out that we need to stay aware of the threat of over reaction as well.

We also face some lesser threats from extremist groups of very many political, or ideological persuasions, but the fact that these other threats exist, does not diminish the threat that the new fundamentalist Islam poses.

We have seen a massive surge of extremism coming from the fundamentalist muslims, or Islamists, as they are most often referred, and they do have an agenda, and they do have a very large following.
On top of that, an even larger number again,  offer broad based support, to varying degrees, and history has shown us that whenever the shite hits the fan, people do align themselves along these lines of religious and cultural differences.

The ridiculous thing is that wherever western countries have bent over backwards to make allowances for muslims,  they offer nothing at all by way of reciprocation.
The fact is that they cannot, unless they go directly against the rules of their religion, as their rules are immutable, their position intransigent, and there is no way to get around that except by expecting them to ignore their religious teachings, which is unlikely.

That fact alone raises a big red flag for me.

We also know that we can expect to see local muslims participating in planned acts of terrorism, it has already happened, and will again, and while the politically correct can bemoan the unfairness of profiling, the fact remains that it is used by authorities, because it works.
Fortunately the Police have not become so politically correct as to turn a blind eye to all threats emanating from muslim migrants, and just yesterday local Police had to mass a large presence to control the friends and "community" members offering their support for some arrested on firearms charges.

Encounters like that just seem to reinforce the perception that they identify with these people as muslims, and the fact that they may be criminals under our laws, seems unimportant in the eyes of their community, and that is no great surprise to most of us.

So while we should always judge individuals as we find them, and we should give all people the chance to behave like respectable members of our community, that does not mean we pretend the threat that emanates from Islam, is not real.

Islam has to accept the fact that the perceptions of it in the community do not emanate from a biased media, or Islamophobic extremists, but rather from the tenets of it's own doctrine, and the behaviour of it's own members.

When they stop giving reason to be looked upon as a threat, then we can all be a lot happier.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #222 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 8:16am
 
Quote:
When they stop giving reason to be looked upon as a threat, then we can all be a lot happier.


That's your opinion of "happy".
When we import too many other versions of "happy", then ours will obviously become lost or insignificant if we hold our ideals of democracy true.
If we are to be truly democratic, then we must align more to the versions of "happy" that we import for our capitalist version of "happy".

Not happy Jan.  Angry


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #223 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 8:50am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 8:08am:
We also face some lesser threats from extremist groups of very many political, or ideological persuasions, but the fact that these other threats exist, does not diminish the threat that the new fundamentalist Islam poses.


There are a lot of insidious threats to freedom that we don't even see.  A lot of convenience foods in the States used to contain corn syrup (because it was cheap). That was because the US government encouraged corn production using subsidies.

The result was that a lot of people didn't realise what they were eating, and before they knew it, they were fat bastards. Now being converted into a FB is an enormous infringement on personal freedom. FB's tend to die earlier too, and are generally less healthier than non-FB's. Oh yeah and their sex lives too - but let's not go there.

So here was an insidious threat that killed many more people than terrorists, and left millions others handicapped, unable to climb single flights of stairs, unable to defend themselves and unable to participate in play with their kids.

Corn Syrup subsidy was a far greater act of terrorism than 911.  Tongue  - and you know my feelings on 911 and the perpetrators- so don't read something into that.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #224 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 9:15am
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 1:56am:
Sorry, should have clarified ....the name 'Ned Kelly' ring a bell?
(its a poor joke, but a nice one)

Basically, what I'm saying: Don't worry about 'Banning the Burqa' or passing Legislation...chances are, Moslem women are finding it tough as it is, being who they are in the Burqa - here in Australia.


LOL.  GrinOk I get it now. Whoosh!! Straight over my head. I literally haven't given Ned Kelly a second thought in decades.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #225 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 10:37am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 8:08am:
Of course some people get far too extreme in their reactions to perceived threats, but that alone does not nullify the fact that a real threat can exist.
Like muso said, we face all sorts of threats to our freedoms and way of life, and we saw real steps against personal freedoms legislated in the USA in their response to the Terrorist threat, and that was a Democratic Government taking that action, so muso is right to point out that we need to stay aware of the threat of over reaction as well.

We also face some lesser threats from extremist groups of very many political, or ideological persuasions, but the fact that these other threats exist, does not diminish the threat that the new fundamentalist Islam poses.

We have seen a massive surge of extremism coming from the fundamentalist muslims, or Islamists, as they are most often referred, and they do have an agenda, and they do have a very large following.
On top of that, an even larger number again,  offer broad based support, to varying degrees, and history has shown us that whenever the shite hits the fan, people do align themselves along these lines of religious and cultural differences.

The ridiculous thing is that wherever western countries have bent over backwards to make allowances for muslims,  they offer nothing at all by way of reciprocation.
The fact is that they cannot, unless they go directly against the rules of their religion, as their rules are immutable, their position intransigent, and there is no way to get around that except by expecting them to ignore their religious teachings, which is unlikely.

That fact alone raises a big red flag for me.

We also know that we can expect to see local muslims participating in planned acts of terrorism, it has already happened, and will again, and while the politically correct can bemoan the unfairness of profiling, the fact remains that it is used by authorities, because it works.
Fortunately the Police have not become so politically correct as to turn a blind eye to all threats emanating from muslim migrants, and just yesterday local Police had to mass a large presence to control the friends and "community" members offering their support for some arrested on firearms charges.

Encounters like that just seem to reinforce the perception that they identify with these people as muslims, and the fact that they may be criminals under our laws, seems unimportant in the eyes of their community, and that is no great surprise to most of us.

So while we should always judge individuals as we find them, and we should give all people the chance to behave like respectable members of our community, that does not mean we pretend the threat that emanates from Islam, is not real.

Islam has to accept the fact that the perceptions of it in the community do not emanate from a biased media, or Islamophobic extremists, but rather from the tenets of it's own doctrine, and the behaviour of it's own members.

When they stop giving reason to be looked upon as a threat, then we can all be a lot happier.


Ah, yes. But there's not going to be a reason, is there? The US needs wars like Osama needs buildings - the US military is an important economic stimulus for the US, and enemies are in demand.

What is, in reality, a handful of nationalist causes and wars, you've turned into an all-out Islamicist crusade to kill us all and let God sort us out.

Problems exist in this world, and people will continue to find solutions that do more harm than good. Islamic insurgents in the Philippines are just as guilty as Nato in Afghanistan: the "solutions" do not work. I'm aware, also, that these are completely different struggles.

But for the crusaders, it's potato and potatoe.

You will never win by stirring up Muslim hatred. The global "caliphate" is hardly realistic, but to be honest, I've never examined its claims. Self determination is hardly empire-building, but who knows?

You don't really hate Islam - you've just talked yourself into it.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #226 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 6:18pm
 
Quote:
Well while you are sticking up for freedom, for freedom's sake, maybe you could also campaign for a man's right to beat his wife


Are you channeling Abu now Mozz?

Quote:
if she accepts it of her own free will. Grin
It is obviously her right to give her husband the right to treat her that way, if she so chooses, and how dare we in this country try and impose our standards onto them.


Actually mozz, I would defend that right. It's called S&M and between consenting adults, it is perfectly legitimate.

Quote:
I agree with most of what you say there, but if he's so deferred to by the bulk of Muslims, why do you think he was banned from Muslim Village?


No idea. I tried asking but didn't get an answer. I don't see much point speculating.

Quote:
I know quite a few Muslims in Africa, and without exception, they would certainly not defend some of these extremist views, particularly the one about banning all music, which I find appalling.


I think even Abu admitted this was a grey area. It is not the grey areas that bother me, but the bits that are part of the mainstream.

Quote:
There are extremist clerics, but most Muslims distance themselves from them.


As does Abu, yet I find his ideology just as insidious.

Quote:
If you want to know how a religion is practiced, don't ask the Imams or the Priests - or the newly converted who are keen to show what good Muslims they are in their own misguided way.


I have asked plenty of people. The bits that concern me seem to be either universally accepted or 'no comment'ed. That is also why we don't get anyone from Muslim village here pointing out where Abu is wrong, because they would end up reinforcing the bits Abu is right about. I have never come accross an ideology, except perhaps scientology (to the extent I am aware of it), where the followers are so reluctant to explain their beliefs and go to such great lengths to mislead people about them.

Jasig:

Quote:
A moslem woman was shot in the knee-caps today at Bendigo.
...some things never change.


That could be interpretted in very different ways.

Quote:
Hatred clouds your ability to be skeptical and try to see things for what they are. From what I've seen here, Islam is just an object for hatred - an excuse. If the internet existed forty years ago, the target would have been the domino theory and Vietnamese communists.


Are you saying that communism was not a genuine threat?

Quote:
Of course some people get far too extreme in their reactions to perceived threats


Like trying to ban an item of clothing?

Quote:
but that alone does not nullify the fact that a real threat can exist


Banning the burqa is hardly effective against suicide bombers or wife beaters.

Quote:
Like muso said, we face all sorts of threats to our freedoms and way of life, and we saw real steps against personal freedoms legislated in the USA in their response to the Terrorist threat, and that was a Democratic Government taking that action, so muso is right to point out that we need to stay aware of the threat of over reaction as well.


I can understand people wanting to relinquish some freedom out of fear of suicide bombers and terrorists, but not out of fear of Muslim women wearing strange cloths.

Quote:
Ah, yes. But there's not going to be a reason, is there? The US needs wars like Osama needs buildings - the US military is an important economic stimulus for the US, and enemies are in demand.


The fact that many get rich off it does not mean it stimulates their economy. It is an enourmous burden on it.

Karnal:

Quote:
You don't really hate Islam - you've just talked yourself into it.


Perhaps you should find out a bit more about it before analysing people's motives for criticising it.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #227 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 10:16pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 10:37am:
Ah, yes. But there's not going to be a reason, is there? The US needs wars like Osama needs buildings - the US military is an important economic stimulus for the US, and enemies are in demand.

What is, in reality, a handful of nationalist causes and wars, you've turned into an all-out Islamicist crusade to kill us all and let God sort us out.

Problems exist in this world, and people will continue to find solutions that do more harm than good. Islamic insurgents in the Philippines are just as guilty as Nato in Afghanistan: the "solutions" do not work. I'm aware, also, that these are completely different struggles.

But for the crusaders, it's potato and potatoe.

You will never win by stirring up Muslim hatred. The global "caliphate" is hardly realistic, but to be honest, I've never examined its claims. Self determination is hardly empire-building, but who knows?

You don't really hate Islam - you've just talked yourself into it.





This is lovely. Donkey is here to represent, as the reincarnation of every useful idiot through the ages, the voice of true sanity that knows the truth : the ONLY enemy we have is - OURSELVES!!! Always!

Well, that was easy, wasn't it, boys and girls?!?

Whatever is wrong with anything - it's our misunderstanding, people! A bloody genious! All these people shedding blood across the world in the name of Islam are trying to be our friends, only we push them away and treat them mean. This makes them undertandably angry and NOT responsible for what they do in the name of Islam. Don't you get it? All of you??  It is YOUR fault and Amerikkka's fault that 90 people were killed in Lahore yesterday It's because of your collective simple-mindedness. You don't see or understand when people want to be your friends.

We are the only bad guys. That's the insight. It takes years of university education with some people, with others, it it a devine revelation.








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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #228 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 5:39pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 10:16pm:
This is lovely. Donkey is here to represent, as the reincarnation of every useful idiot through the ages, the voice of true sanity that knows the truth : the ONLY enemy we have is - OURSELVES!!! Always!

Well, that was easy, wasn't it, boys and girls?!?


It wasn't easy for the prophet Jeheshua, effende, who had something to do with the Christian religion also:

Luke 6

27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #229 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 6:58pm
 
I would really love to see all the non-muslim lakemba residents, all buy balaclavas, and turn up at the mosque at prayer time, and see how comfortable the muslim men are when it is someone other than their subjugated wife wearing a mask.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #230 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 7:05pm
 
Never seen you quote all that to the cut-throats, you Paki bugger... It is only the western 'us' who must be meek and accommodating. The cutthroats have their own ethics and we are happy with that, aren't we, multicultural boys and girls? WHatever we can do to make all the ills of the world 'our' responsibility.

I would like to see you and the various other assorted useful idiots and fellowtravellers and accommodation-maniacs to identify some responsibilties the cut-throats and desperados have. But you wouldn't presume to tell them what they should remember, lest they cut your throat in rightous indignation.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #231 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 7:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 6:18pm:
Quote:
Ah, yes. But there's not going to be a reason, is there? The US needs wars like Osama needs buildings - the US military is an important economic stimulus for the US, and enemies are in demand.


The fact that many get rich off it does not mean it stimulates their economy. It is an enourmous burden on it.


Sure it is - like housing insulation and school building projects add to the Australian deficit while shonky insulation contractors get rich quick.

However, the US military is an economy in itself. It employs a large percentage of the US population, and grants huge contracts to private industry. In budget terms, if the US military was a country, it would be the 13th largest economy in the world. In population terms, it would be larger than New Zealand.

The military-industrial economy also needs business. In 2001, the US was in a recession due to the tech-stocks bubble. Sept 11 happened at a time when the US economy needed priming. The invasion of Iraq matched foreign policy with economic policy. It was also a test of Donald Rumsfeld's newly "reformed" military. Rumsfeld "revolutionized" the military by contracting every function possible to private industry. The Iraq war was the first largely privatised war in modern history, and this made up Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney's "New Deal" with companies like Lockheed-Martin, Blackwater and Haliburton.

The clash of civilizations is not about getting the Mohammedans, but business as usual. The whole purpose of Amerikkan propaganda is to serve this interest. It's not a conspiracy, it's just how monopolies function when they are powerful enough to have the ear of the Commander In Chief, and the voice of the major news networks. General Electric, in particular, is most successful in allying these functions in both its media and military subsidiaries.

The business of Amerikka is business. Its "security" is also business. Amerikka needs enemies like Amerikka needs business, and we all need Amerikka to save us from... From...

Business.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #232 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:01pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 3rd, 2010 at 7:05pm:
Never seen you quote all that to the cut-throats, you Paki bugger... It is only the western 'us' who must be meek and accommodating. The cutthroats have their own ethics and we are happy with that, aren't we, multicultural boys and girls? WHatever we can do to make all the ills of the world 'our' responsibility.

I would like to see you and the various other assorted useful idiots and fellowtravellers and accommodation-maniacs to identify some responsibilties the cut-throats and desperados have. But you wouldn't presume to tell them what they should remember, lest they cut your throat in rightous indignation.


I see you're more of an Old Testament man. Exodus, Leviticus, the Book of Job...

All good books, effende.

Exodus 23

27 "I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.

31 "I will establish your borders from the Red Sea [a] to the Sea of the Philistines, [b] and from the desert to the River. [c] I will hand over to you the people who live in the land and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land, or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you."

God is great!





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #233 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:02pm
 
You've got it all figured out, haven't you, Donkey?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #234 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:14pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:02pm:
You've got it all figured out, haven't you, Donkey?


I sense you have much pain tonight, effende. I hope that you are released from anger and suffering.

We must focus on what is good in life too. In comparison to many, we are truly blessed (even if we don't know it).
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #235 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:17pm
 
Quote:
In population terms, it would be larger than New Zealand.


Active personnel:      1,473,900
Reserve personnel:      1,458,500

Total size: 2,932,400 personnel

New Zealand population (2006 census): 4,027,947
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #236 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:26pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:17pm:
Quote:
In population terms, it would be larger than New Zealand.


Active personnel:      1,473,900
Reserve personnel:      1,458,500

Total size: 2,932,400 personnel

New Zealand population (2006 census): 4,027,947


Thanks for replying, Imperium. Interesting to read the actual number of troops.

Actual soldiers, however, make up a minority of military employees. The US has largely tendered out most of its functions to private contractors. I can't provide the number of employees, but looking at the actual number of New Zealanders, I believe it would be far larger than this.

I was only talking about the military. If you included agencies like the CIA (send in the drones) and the Department of Homeland Security (a privatized surveillance industry with billions in funding), you'd have a far bigger number. If you include the employees of military contractors, we're probably talking closer to the population of Australia.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #237 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:34pm
 
abo army der cuz
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #238 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 9:01pm
 
Ban the Burger!
Bring back the Chicko Roll!

(sorry, folks, I've been resisting that for days.
Carry on.)
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #239 - Jul 3rd, 2010 at 9:04pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Jul 3rd, 2010 at 8:34pm:
abo army der cuz


KISS Army.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #240 - Jul 4th, 2010 at 10:54am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 3rd, 2010 at 5:39pm:
Soren wrote on Jul 2nd, 2010 at 10:16pm:
This is lovely. Donkey is here to represent, as the reincarnation of every useful idiot through the ages, the voice of true sanity that knows the truth : the ONLY enemy we have is - OURSELVES!!! Always!

Well, that was easy, wasn't it, boys and girls?!?


It wasn't easy for the prophet Jeheshua, effende, who had something to do with the Christian religion also:

Luke 6

27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.




Karnal, is it out of love or hate that we remove the speck from their eye?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #241 - Jul 4th, 2010 at 11:16am
 
The plank has well and truly been removed from the West's eye (viz. the multitude of PC reflexes and sef-flaggelations), but dare to identify any fault in in the non-western, non-white masses and there will be nonsense and idiocy shouted back at you in an instant.

The thing about the tinted people of the world is that mot often than not, they hate each other, exploit and oppress each other far more than whitey ever could. Just have a look at how the Chinese or the Indians or the Arabs treat each other. It's enough to make you think that colonialism ended too soon and they could have used the civilising influence a little bit longer.



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Islamic hardliners return for Sydney convention
Reply #242 - Jul 4th, 2010 at 2:14pm
 
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1278113530

This is what happens when you call to ban the Burqa - you start to make people like this guy appear sane:

Islamic hardliners return for Sydney convention after push for ban fails

HT's Australian spokesman, Uthman Badar, said the conference, the theme of which was the "struggle for Islam in the West", was aimed at countering rising hostility to "all things Islamic" in the Western world.

"Whether it be the US, the UK or Australia, we see constant attacks on Islam, its values, practices and symbols," Mr Badar said.

"If it's not the face veil that becomes a security issue overnight in Australia, it's the minarets that frighten Switzerland."
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #243 - Jul 4th, 2010 at 4:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2010 at 10:54am:
Karnal, is it out of love or hate that we remove the speck from their eye?


Good question, Freediver, but alas, I have no knowledge of the surgeon's intentions. However, if the speck were to be removed through "surgical strikes," I believe there would be little passion involved.

These days, speck removal is done by shiftworkers in Texas. Like the rest of us, they get to go home at five after they've logged off.
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Re: Islamic hardliners return for Sydney convention
Reply #244 - Jul 4th, 2010 at 6:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2010 at 2:14pm:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1278113530

This is what happens when you call to ban the Burqa - you start to make people like this guy appear sane:

Islamic hardliners return for Sydney convention after push for ban fails

HT's Australian spokesman, Uthman Badar, said the conference, the theme of which was the "struggle for Islam in the West", was aimed at countering rising hostility to "all things Islamic" in the Western world.

"Whether it be the US, the UK or Australia, we see constant attacks on Islam, its values, practices and symbols," Mr Badar said.

"If it's not the face veil that becomes a security issue overnight in Australia, it's the minarets that frighten Switzerland."



It was not an issue when there were 3 veiled women and 2 minarets per western country.
But when Musulmans and their useful idiots start saying that veiling is just like any other choice of clothing and islam is culturally just as important to the west as its own cultural and political history - which of course has diametrically oppesed almost every islamic notion at every point of its development - that's when people start saying enough is enough, no more minarets, no more face covering.

There is absolutely no reciprocity between Islam's constant demands for more and more acommodation and its own attitude to non-Muslims. ANd it is not hypocrisy because they do not pretend for a moment that there is any sort of need for reciprocity because they do not pretend for a moment that there is any sort of equality. It is only idiots among westerners who do that - pretending that all cultures are equal and deserve equal respect and treatment.
Islam demands what it is not prepared to give, and demands those things on grounds it explicitly rejects as guiding principles for its own conduct.








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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #245 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 11:14am
 
What is so hilarious in this debate is the argument that bank robbers might wear a burqa or that there was some kind of security risk.

It's the same logic as the Pope causes AIDS argument.

Just as a Catholic contemplating sex outside marriage is hardly likely to be influenced about the Papal ban on condoms (perhaps a lesser sin), then a bank robber is hardly likely to be influenced by the ban on burqas. I can just see it now -

Gee Fred, we can't wear a burqa when we're robbing the bank. That would be illegal. We'll just wear Porky Pig masks instead.  They are anti-Islamic after all, so the pigs will approve.  

Maybe we should legislate what bank robbers are permitted to wear.  Wink

Oh I just thought of something ! A ban on bank robberies ! Of course.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #246 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 1:27pm
 
Exactly. Banning bank robberies is a good start. I also think we should ban terrorism - this way, all those Musulmenn would have to go on the dole.

Then we could ban minarets, Korans, flashy jewelry, back hair - all sorts of things. The Musulmanns would have nothing left to do but convert to Christianity.

To be good Christians, of course, they'd have to ignore everything Jesus the Christ ever did or said, but that wouldn't matter. I don't think Christianity is meant to be actually PRACTICED, just vaguely alluded to every now and then when it comes to the never-ending task of persuing the evil Mussellmann.

Then, when we ban Musslemunn itself, we can get down to banning everything else on the banning agenda: wigs, Braille, Esperanto, Jeannie Little...

I can't wait!

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #247 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 1:47pm
 
Fair dinkum, what a bunch of maroons.
So what if some idiots are too stupid to just put forward the argument that they do not like the burqa because it is totally anathema to our very open, gregarious, free society, so they struggle for silly justifications like bank robbery or security issues, it does not change the fact that the burqa does not sit well in our society, where we prefer to meet people openly, face to face.

What is mind numbingly ridiculous is that to a man every one of these apologists for this particular piece of Islamic idiocy, would defend the rights of foreign countries to impose their dress standards onto western visitors.
Unlike those middle eastern hell holes, we will not be seeking to behead, or stone transgressors, merely encourage them to respect our values, and our culture, which does not happen to like people wearing masks in public.

Get a grip, and get some nads, and stick up for your own culture, while you still have a culture to stick up for.

FD's argument that we, who are seeking to have our culture respected, provide the justification that Islamist zealots need to push their particular line of insanity, is a gross overestimation of what those loons require to justify themselves, as they show neither tolerance, or respect, for any view other than their own very extreme take on things.

Frankly I am embarrassed and dismayed that more people do not have the guts to just say no, to the demands that we suppress our own standards in some ridiculous political correct attempt to accommodate every demand from splinter groups who offer nothing in return, but the expectation of future demands on us to make more exceptions for them.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #248 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 2:32pm
 
Quote:
What is mind numbingly ridiculous is that to a man every one of these apologists for this particular piece of Islamic idiocy, would defend the rights of foreign countries to impose their dress standards onto western visitors.


A burqa ban would be imposed on Australian citizens, not visitors. The difference between countries like ours and those you're speaking of is that we're committed to democracy and pride ourselves on respecting diversity.

Quote:
Get a grip, and get some nads, and stick up for your own culture, while you still have a culture to stick up for.


I have a grip and I've done fine without the nads for over 30 years.

Quote:
FD's argument that we, who are seeking to have our culture respected, provide the justification that Islamist zealots need to push their particular line of insanity, is a gross overestimation of what those loons require to justify themselves, as they show neither tolerance, or respect, for any view other than their own very extreme take on things.


FD's arguments are spot on.

Women who wear the burqa aren't trying to force the rest of us to - that would be showing intolerance and a lack of respect for our culture.

Quote:
Frankly I am embarrassed and dismayed that more people do not have the guts to just say no, to the demands that we suppress our own standards in some ridiculous political correct attempt to accommodate every demand from splinter groups who offer nothing in return, but the expectation of future demands on us to make more exceptions for them.


Nobody is asking you to suppress your own standards; you don't have to wear the burqa if you don't want to. And it has nothing to do with 'guts' or courage. I don't try to tell other women what they should wear because it's quite simply none of my business.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #249 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 2:51pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 1:47pm:
Fair dinkum, what a bunch of maroons.
So what if some idiots are too stupid to just put forward the argument that they do not like the burqa because it is totally anathema to our very open, gregarious, free society, so they struggle for silly justifications like bank robbery or security issues, it does not change the fact that the burqa does not sit well in our society, where we prefer to meet people openly, face to face.

What is mind numbingly ridiculous is that to a man every one of these apologists for this particular piece of Islamic idiocy, would defend the rights of foreign countries to impose their dress standards onto western visitors.
Unlike those middle eastern hell holes, we will not be seeking to behead, or stone transgressors, merely encourage them to respect our values, and our culture, which does not happen to like people wearing masks in public.

Get a grip, and get some nads, and stick up for your own culture, while you still have a culture to stick up for.

FD's argument that we, who are seeking to have our culture respected, provide the justification that Islamist zealots need to push their particular line of insanity, is a gross overestimation of what those loons require to justify themselves, as they show neither tolerance, or respect, for any view other than their own very extreme take on things.

Frankly I am embarrassed and dismayed that more people do not have the guts to just say no, to the demands that we suppress our own standards in some ridiculous political correct attempt to accommodate every demand from splinter groups who offer nothing in return, but the expectation of future demands on us to make more exceptions for them.


Impose their dress standards upon us?

You must never have been to Bali, where we're famous for imposing our boardshorts and singlets upon the population, who are very happy to have us I might add, because we are able to throw a little baksheesh around.

I wonder if Harrods imposes dress standards on cashed-up Saudis in Burqas.

Or is it just the dress standards of the less cashed-up Musellmans?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #250 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 3:15pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 2:32pm:
[quote]
Nobody is asking you to suppress your own standards; you don't have to wear the burqa if you don't want to.


Yes - but I think the point is that they will somehow MAKE everyone else wear them. If we don't stop them they'll breed and get into parliament and push through laws banning Western dress standards. No more twinsets and pearls, just sacks with holes for eyes: this is the future is we "accommodate" the miserable mussellmmann and let them get away with wearing sacks all over the place.

You've got to admit, it's a good point.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #251 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 3:23pm
 
Well the burqa is the perfect solution to bad hair days and spotty skin. Maybe it'll just take off on its own...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #252 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 4:19pm
 
Cut the crap, the burqa is a mask, plain and simple, nothing more, nothing less.
It was invented by perverted old men who used to steal, rape and murder women, and once they stole a woman, she was theirs alone to enjoy, and that is the only purpose the burqa ever served, to hide a man's property, from the eyes of another man.

To accommodate this revolting and anachronistic hangover from a time of violent men, is fine, if they want to do it in their own homes, but in public we have the right to be able to expect to meet people face to face, that is how we live.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #253 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 4:20pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 3:15pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 2:32pm:
[quote]
Nobody is asking you to suppress your own standards; you don't have to wear the burqa if you don't want to.


Yes - but I think the point is that they will somehow MAKE everyone else wear them. If we don't stop them they'll breed and get into parliament and push through laws banning Western dress standards. No more twinsets and pearls, just sacks with holes for eyes: this is the future is we "accommodate" the miserable mussellmmann and let them get away with wearing sacks all over the place.

You've got to admit, it's a good point.



like I said in the OP you have to change the constitution first and we all know how hard it is to change.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #254 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 4:41pm
 
RJ, the constitution is just a piece of paper. We decide who comes into our community and the dress standards in which they come.

You can't enter an RSL club without a collared shirt, and you can't wait at the bus stop in a big black sack.

Its for their own good. We have to protect women being beaten or stoned to death. After all, if you were confronted by a big black sock walking around, you'd reach for the nearest four-be-two too. We don't know what's getting around in there. It could be anything.

In the end, RJ, it's for their own good.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #255 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 5:32pm
 
Quote:
like I said in the OP you have to change the constitution first and we all know how hard it is to change.


Why could a common law banning wearing masks in public not suffice skippy?
This is not about banning silly religious costumes, the same rule would apply to all people, be they KKK leaving their hoods off, or some muslim women just wearing their scarves and gloves.
It is not unreasonable to expect to be able to deal with people in their normal daily lives without needing to be confronted with strangers wearing masks.

If it were a gang of teenagers going around in ski masks then everybody would be trying to stop it, but because some idiots falsely claim their anti-social behaviour is part of their religious beliefs then we are supposed to put up with it?
I think not.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #256 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 5:32pm
 
John S wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 4:20pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 3:15pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 2:32pm:
[quote]
Nobody is asking you to suppress your own standards; you don't have to wear the burqa if you don't want to.


Yes - but I think the point is that they will somehow MAKE everyone else wear them. If we don't stop them they'll breed and get into parliament and push through laws banning Western dress standards. No more twinsets and pearls, just sacks with holes for eyes: this is the future is we "accommodate" the miserable mussellmmann and let them get away with wearing sacks all over the place.

You've got to admit, it's a good point.



like I said in the OP you have to change the constitution first and we all know how hard it is to change.


Never take him seriously.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #257 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 5:53pm
 
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #258 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 5:57pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jul 5th, 2010 at 2:32pm:

we're committed to democracy and pride ourselves on respecting diversity.




While those who wear or push for the burqa are committed enemies of democracy and diversity.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #259 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 6:19pm
 
Quote:
If it were a gang of teenagers going around in ski masks then everybody would be trying to stop it, but because some idiots falsely claim their anti-social behaviour is part of their religious beliefs then we are supposed to put up with it?
I think not.


As the law stands you don't have much choice, do you?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #260 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 7:06pm
 
I have a compromise. If those who advocate the fundamental right of those women of the Islamic faith to don the burqa, surely, if they are so motivated by their desire to maximise freedom for every possibile inhabitant of Australian society, they would not object, say, to the suspension of all anti-discrimination laws? Would they not allow an employer access to the fundamental right of freedom of association? My compromise is this; keep the Burqa, but allow employers to discriminate arbitrarily against anybody. Secondly, suspend the racial vilification act. It's only fair.

Quote:
Specifically, the Act states:

       It is unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if:
       (a) the act is reasonably likely in all the circumstances to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or group of people, and
       (b) the act is done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or some or all of the people in the group. [4]

A variety of acts can constitute racial hatred, including speaking, singing and making gestures in public, as well as drawings, images, and written publications such as newspapers, leaflets and websites.

There are three essential components of this unlawful conduct:

   1) The act must be done in public;
   2) It must be reasonably likely to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate the people against whom it is directed; and
   3) It must be done because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the group against whom it is directed.


How many of those who agitate for allowance of the Burqa would disagree that this is a horrible violation of my freedom within the public space? I would definitely say that all of them would be on my side in this; they are our most stalwart defenders of freedom of speech and freedom of expression after all. Let us extend the precious freedom which we all value so highly to everybody.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #261 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 7:15pm
 
I can't believe I am seeing such hypocrisy and intolerance come from Australians. All those who are promoting this ban seem to have forgotten what freedom is, what tolerance is, what human rights are. It is not the Muslims who are being intolerant and imposing their ways on you. It is you who are being intolerant, petty and imposing yourself on them. It is you who is destroying Australian culture and everything we stand for. You are accusing these people of doing exactly what you are doing. They do you no harm at all when they don a burqa. They are not attacking you.

Quote:
But when Musulmans and their useful idiots start saying that veiling is just like any other choice of clothing


But it is just like any other choice of clothing. Not sure why this is so hard to comprehend.

Quote:
There is absolutely no reciprocity between Islam's constant demands for more and more acommodation and its own attitude to non-Muslims.


So what? You'll have to explain the logic behind getting rid of freedom here because some people oppose it elsewhere.

Quote:
ANd it is not hypocrisy


It is sinking to the level of the people you criticise. And if you claim that you are doing it because they are intolerant and want to impose their standards on us, then yes it is blatant hypocrisy.

Quote:
It is only idiots among westerners who do that - pretending that all cultures are equal and deserve equal respect and treatment.


You seem to have missed the point completely Soren. It is not about equality or respect for culture. It is about freedom and basic human rights.

Quote:
What is mind numbingly ridiculous is that to a man every one of these apologists for this particular piece of Islamic idiocy, would defend the rights of foreign countries to impose their dress standards onto western visitors.


You are getting it completely backwards Mozz. The only people in this thread seeking to impose a dress standard on other people are the ones trying to ban the burqa.

Quote:
Unlike those middle eastern hell holes, we will not be seeking to behead, or stone transgressors, merely encourage them to respect our values


By banning items of clothing you aren't used to? Do you realise that if you ban something and a person contionues to do it, they go to jail? If all we wanted to do was 'encourage' them to respect our values, there would be no talk of banning.

Quote:
FD's argument that we, who are seeking to have our culture respected


That is not what you are doing. You are seeking to have it forcibly imposed. That is not part of the Australian culture. You are seeking to destroy our culture and everything our soldiers have fought and died for because you have lost sight of what actually matters and what the real problems are. You think you can get back at terrorists by putting Muslim women in jail. That is just stupid.

Quote:
Frankly I am embarrassed and dismayed that more people do not have the guts to just say no, to the demands that we suppress our own standards


No one is asking you to do that. A muslim woman wearing a veil does not suppress your standards. You are not fighting them, you are becoming them. You are turning freedom, justice and human rights on it's head, with nothing but gibberish about losing your standards to justify it.

Quote:
in some ridiculous political correct attempt to accommodate every demand from splinter groups


These Muslim women are not demanding a thing. They already have the right to dress as they choose. It is you who is making petty, absurd demands of them. 

Quote:
provide the justification that Islamist zealots need to push their particular line of insanity, is a gross overestimation of what those loons require to justify themselves


But you do. Already you are forcing me to side with them on this issue. Do you not see that? Can you not understand that by promoting intolerance and denying freedom, you put them in a position where they are the ones promoting tolerance and freedom?

Quote:
Cut the crap, the burqa is a mask, plain and simple, nothing more, nothing less.


And what is wrong with wearing a mask? You wear a mask over your genitals don't you? Or do you call it something else?

Quote:
To accommodate this revolting and anachronistic hangover from a time of violent men, is fine, if they want to do it in their own homes, but in public we have the right to be able to expect to meet people face to face, that is how we live.


No we do not have that right. What we have is the right to dress as we choose. We do not have the right to impose our standards on others.

Quote:
If it were a gang of teenagers going around in ski masks then everybody would be trying to stop it


No they wouldn't. It is perfectly legal. Get a grip.

Quote:
but because some idiots falsely claim their anti-social behaviour is part of their religious beliefs then we are supposed to put up with it?


No. You are meant to put up with it because it is their right to dress as they please and you have no right to interfere.

While those who wear or push for the burqa are committed enemies of democracy and diversity.

Those who call for it to be banned are committed enemies of freedom and basic human rights.

How many of those who agitate for allowance of the Burqa

There is no agitating necessary. It is allowed. The only agitated people are those frothing at the mouth calling for an item of clothing to be banned.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #262 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 7:22pm
 
Quote:
If those who advocate the fundamental right of those women of the Islamic faith to don the burqa, surely, if they are so motivated by their desire to maximise freedom for every possibile inhabitant of Australian society, they would not object, say, to the suspension of all anti-discrimination laws?


You have it backward. Telling a small group of people what they can and can't wear is discrimination.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #263 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 7:31pm
 
I was saying we should allow people to wear the Burqa. Let's maximise personal freedom for everybody unless it inflicts physical harm. Burqa wearers and racists together.  Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #264 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 7:48pm
 
Quote:
How many of those who agitate for allowance of the Burqa would disagree that this is a horrible violation of my freedom within the public space? I would definitely say that all of them would be on my side in this; they are our most stalwart defenders of freedom of speech and freedom of expression after all


How does advocating against discrimination relate to you wanting the right to discriminate publicly?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #265 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 8:23pm
 
The argument made from a position of personal freedom regarding the Burqa is always going to ring as hollow to so many people because we're already living in a society (and always have been) where there is no such thing as total freedom. While we do value freedom as an ideal, most people are ultimately pragmatic and are willing to forego certain freedoms for a perceived greater or personal good, and allow legally instituted restrictions on behavior for a smoother and more tolerable society and existence. A great many Australians smacking hate the Burqa, but not say, in the same way that they may hate something like rap music. The burqa to many of us represents something so completely disturbing and alien that we are actually calling for the prohibition of its wearing within the public space. The personal reaction of so many Australian people towards it sums up the societal damage that it does; it alone causes (not even talking the individuals underneath it) a great amount of friction and social tension. It's ultimately an area that is felt by many that having less total societal freedom is desirable to having more. Most who desire the Burqa to remain allowed think exactly the same way Mozz, Soren, etc. do; they just disagree on the domains in which we should be using the force of law to circumscribe behavior.

I've done somewhat of a 180 regarding what I personally feel on the Burqa. The Burqa probably SHOULD be allowed. At this point in time, I want more social tension, more friction, more conflict. Ameliorating existing social divisions between the Muslim Skraeling communities and the greater societies in which they exist will only slow the arrival of the best solution to the problems presented by these communities, which is their wholesale ejection.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #266 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 8:30pm
 
Quote:
I want more social tension, more friction, more conflict. Ameliorating existing social divisions between Muslim enclaves and the greater societies in which they exist will only slow destruction of the problem of Muslim enclaves at their root; which will come about via the elimination of these skraelings from our societies, once and for all.


How very Hitler of you.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #267 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 8:41pm
 
Quote:
The argument made from a position of personal freedom regarding the Burqa is always going to ring as hollow to so many people because we're already living in a society (and always have been) where there is no such thing as total freedom.


That does not make it hollow at all.

Quote:
While we do value freedom as an ideal, most people are ultimately pragmatic and are willing to forego certain freedoms for a perceived greater or personal good


You have it wrong. It works like this - your freedom extends until you start infringing on someone else's freedom. Maybe your argument would make sense if it was about taking your shoes off at the airport to help them screen for terrorists, because terrorists actually scare people. Women in veils do not. They are merely associated with soething that scares you. As far as arguments for taking people's freedom away go, it is pretty pissweak.

Quote:
The burqa to many of us represents something so completely disturbing and alien that we are actually calling for the prohibition of its wearing within the public space.


Don't you have it backwards? Shouldn't you try to ban whatever it is that is so alien and disturbing, rather than the symbol for it?

Quote:
The personal reaction of so many Australian people towards it


It is the personal reaction of a small minority. The majority of decent Australians respond with indifference, pity, curiosity etc.

Quote:
it alone causes (not even talking the individuals underneath it) a great amount of friction and social tension


No it doesn't. Even if it did, it would be your intolerance that was the cause. It is you that is the problem, not them. You are becoming what you despise in order to shield your eyes from a mere symbol of what you despise. You have become a puppet of the extremists who want to appear to be the sane ones. And it won;t just be superficial. They will become the sane ones, comparitively, if you keep this up.

Quote:
It's ultimately an area that is felt by many that having less total societal freedom


What is 'total societal freedom'? Is that you taking away other people freedom? Or have you resorted to making up gibberish?

Quote:
Most who desire the Burqa to remain allowed think exactly the same way Mozz, Soren, etc. do; they just disagree on the domains in which we should be using the force of law to circumscribe behavior.


No, it is the complete opposite. We are promoting individual freedom and human rights. They are saying that freedom and human rights should come second to ignorant people felling comfortable with familiar surroundings. It is the same tired old argument that gets pulled out every time some fool wants to deny our freedom because they don't like what young people are doing these days. It is not some novel situation that requires a drastic solution. You are just trying to make the same mistake that so many have tried before you. Fortunately calmer heads will prevail.

Quote:
I've done somewhat of a 180 regarding what I personally feel on the Burqa. The Burqa probably SHOULD be allowed.


Good for you.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #268 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 9:24pm
 
Nobody is born with burqa or niqab so wearing it is not an inalienable right, just like having a bone through your nose isn't
If Allah wanted women to cover their faces he would have created them with a skin flap growing from their hairline, a kind of facial hymen. But no, face covering by burqa or niqab is a choice, insofar as one has any choice under Islam.

As a choice, it has no special claim to respect. It is not a choice for an intrinsic, supra-social, transcedent good that most of us recognise as such. On the contrary, in this society it is a choice that signals, among other things, the explicit, public rejection of the central ethical principles of our society. Paradoxically, one of such central ethical notions in this society is individual freeedom of choice, a notion Islam totally rejects.

So while Muslim women can claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms, they cannot also thereby deny our freedom not to respect them, not to ridicule them.  You cover your face in public and thereby place yourself explicitly outside the society you live in? Very well, but do not expect respect and don't be surprised if people will treat you as a pariah. The freedom that allows you to cover your face also enables others to heap contempt on you. You cannot claim your freedom but deny it to others. Act like an idiot and you will be called an idiot.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a single Islamic doctrine that is not opposed to what we generally call western civilisation. Yet to all the useful idiots, the challenge is to continue to defend Islam on grounds Islam rejects. Such people would not defend Islam on its own grounds - they feign to be too smart and sophisticated for that. But then that is the mark of a useful idiot, and been since the 19th century.






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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #269 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 10:08pm
 
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #270 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 10:30pm
 
Quote:
You have it wrong. It works like this - your freedom extends until you start infringing on someone else's freedom. Maybe your argument would make sense if it was about taking your shoes off at the airport to help them screen for terrorists, because terrorists actually scare people. Women in veils do not. They are merely associated with soething that scares you. As far as arguments for taking people's freedom away go, it is pretty pissweak.
FD

Pissweak?
What is pissweak is seeing idiotic arguments defending a strangers right to behave strangely in our land, for their is no greater symbol of separation from our society than masking your identity from it.

So many adults are caught up in trying to appear "tolerant" of differences, that they have lost the ability to discern when those differences are having a negative, and divisive effect upon our community standards.

Take your young kids down to Brunswick, and see how they react when they turn around and see three women dressed in strange clothes that hide their faces, standing behind them.
You know what their reaction is, because you know that kids are honest, and you know that they will not be influenced to invent fanciful reasons to try and explain away what is a rational and reasonable reaction to confronting someone in a mask.
The reaction is unease, a little fear, a sense of unease and bewilderment about why someone would hide their ability to be able to smile back at a child, like all decent humans normally do.

Why on earth should we even contemplate not standing up for the openness of our society, before the number of people seeking to mask up in public increases.

I have already challenged the namby pamby PC brigaders to mask up for a day, and see how that effects your interaction with other people, but to do that would require a degree of honesty they seem to be happy to forgo in the name of being PC.

Wearing masks in public is not the australian way, unless you count ned kelly, and you are planning on having a shootout with the police, so we should put a stop to it, wearing masks is offensive, and wrong.

We have the right to our freedom to want our culture respected FD, and masking up in public is absolutely disrespectful to australia's way of life.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #271 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 10:57pm
 
FD and Annie  - what is the differenc between going completely covered up and completely naked, freedom of choice and tolerance-wise?

By your reconing, if someone choses to go around completely naked, that's nobody's business since noone is being physicaly attacked or required to also go around naked.




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #272 - Jul 5th, 2010 at 11:40pm
 

Some actions, we believe, are permissible in private but not in public. Undressing is one of them. And the concept of decency is absolutely essential to defining the distinction between the permissible and the impermissible. There is nothing indecent about the act of undressing in private - not, at least, in the normal circumstances in which this act occurs. There is nothing indecent about the love-making of husband and wife in private. But when these acts are put on display they take on another character. They lose their innocence; they become an affront, a challenge and an invitation to states of mind that have no place in the public sphere, and no place in the private sphere either - voyeuristic states which most people regard as repugnant, without necessarily overcoming thereby the temptation to indulge in them.

Now it is here that we begin to see the significance of the word "public" in the phrase "public morality". The public sphere has its own moral norms. There are things which, while innocent enough in private, lose their innocence when put on display. They lose their innocence because they invade the emotions and the peace of mind of those who observe them, upsetting the delicate balance on which the routines of society depend. Obscenity is the paradigm case of this - though one that it is increasingly difficult to see for what it is, namely, as an invasion not only of the public sphere, but also of the privacy of those who inhabit it. The obscene performance is one that puts something private on public display. It breaks through the barrier between public and private, violating the sense of decorum without which people cannot maintain the objectivity and distance from each other on which the public sphere depends.

In our daily lives we make a radical distinction between the rules that govern our intimacies and those that govern our posture towards those with whom we are not intimate. The rules of the public sphere exist to maintain the kind of distance that makes it possible to live without existential involvements, to negotiate our path through the world of strangers with minimum entanglements and always by negotiation and consent. These rules must be anchored in law if they are not to be exploited by the predators and egoists, who will use them to their own advantage.

http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/critique-april-09-morality-and-public-space-roger...


These arguments, extensively developed by Scruton, have a bearing on the ostentation that is face covering in the West. In the West, the burqa and the niqab are invasions of the public space, as offensive as obscenity.





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #273 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 3:35am
 
Fair enough, Freediver. You have the better of me here, though I have always thought and made the point frequently that it's best if immigration from the Islamic world is stopped. Intolerant behavior towards those that engage in the act of concealing their face in a community where it is common practice to do the opposite is inevitable. All of these problems are things which we, from the standpoint of our interests, can simply do without.

If the majority of Australians are indifferent towards the Burqa, perhaps you could explain these poll results?

...
...
...

Quote:
.

MOST voters favour a ban on Muslim women wearing the burqa in public, according to an opinion survey by the polling group UMR Research.

The national survey of 1000 people of voting age earlier this month found that 59 per cent supported a ban on the full face and body veil in public places.

However, 33 per cent of UMR's respondents said they opposed a ban and the remaining 8 per cent were unsure.

UMR is the pollster for the federal Labor Party, although the survey on the burqa was carried out as part of its wider opinion research program rather than being commissioned by the ALP.

The pollster's managing director, John Utting, said the survey found strong support for banning the full face and body veil, especially among men and older people. UMR's results showed that 63 per cent of men surveyed would support a ban compared with 55 per cent of women.


Maybe there's a selection bias here; I'm not suggesting that these polls are certainly representative samples. But they do reflect the general impression I've had of how regular Australians I've encountered feel about this issue. I think most Australians do not like the Burqa and even the majoirty want it outlawed. In the United Kingdom, it is this way as well:

Quote:
Significant majorities of Britons support bans on the burqa and niqab, women's garments that fully cover the body and face respectively, a poll revealed.

According to an Angus Reid Public Opinion poll, there is less support for a ban on the hijab in the UK, the headscarf that covers Muslim women's hair, UPI reported.

At least two-thirds of 2,001 respondents said they support bans on the burqa and niqab, with 72 percent wanting the burqa banned in all public places and 66 percent the niqab.

Both garments cover the entire body, including a net veil over the eyes.

A larger percentage, 79 percent, would support forbidding women from wearing burqas at schools and universities and in airports, while 75 percent would ban the niqab at schools and 85 percent in airports.

However, 75 percent say there should be no public bans on hijabs.


If the hijab elicits a less condemning response than the Burqa, perhaps it is not just the negative association of the Burqa with Islam that causes many to react negatively to it, as the hijab should be expected to contain the same negative association. If so many are calling for the outlawing of the Burqa, perhaps there is some aspect about that garment that truly does make uncomfortable and uneasy... the fact that the face is covered.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #274 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 10:25am
 
I think that once Islamic women are 'De-Culturalised' (and will the other Religions be so too, like the Brethren women and their scarfs and plain clothes?), by Australians who serve a pro-Jewish USA that thinks that liberating Islamic women is justified by their highest of divorce rates in the world.
You will see the Islamic as a 'people' rather than a culture, even as an Individual, suddenly shine from such adversity in a far away land that can't even get its own poo together and still expresses a 3rd rate 'hand-me-down' fashion from the USA/UK.
Check out the Melbourne Cup, the women there have to get hammered on champagne to get laid because they all dress like the Queen Mother  Grin

I think Australia has become a nation of WHINGERS that just lay in the boot from the side when the USA/UK get into a fight with people who do not live up to 'their' expectations.

Lead by example Australia ...put out a suitable Fashion for the Islamic women, without compromising their Religion.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #275 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 3:36pm
 
Chicago woman Nour Hadid faces a first-degree murder charge following the beating death of her two-year-old niece. But according to her husband, an even graver crime has been committed:


The police booking photo of alleged child killer Nour Hadid released Tuesday is an “insult against our religion,” says Hadid’s husband, Alaeddin.

Orland Park police detectives say the 26-year-old Muslim woman was treated as any other suspect in a murder probe would be, and they did not intend to humiliate her when they photographed her Sunday without her headscarf and wearing only a skimpy top.


Alaeddin claims police are “really going to be in big trouble” for releasing scarfless images to the press:


“It is against our religion; we do not do this in our culture,” Alaeddin said.

“People have been calling me about this all day


http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/commen...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #276 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:16pm
 
A spokesman for a minority religious group today spoke out against the bigoted public stance on what they choose to wear in public.

Mr Iva Bigun, a committed "Flashist" spoke of the trauma of having people try and tell him he must cover his penis when he visits the local state primary school, "he said, " I hold a deep personal belief that my divine right to waggle my willy in public is nobody's business but my own.
I do not threaten anyone, or hurt anyone, so why is society so determined to tell me how I should dress in public, it is an outrage."

Mr Bigun got a rousing welcome at the local Islamic school, where they said that they also shared his desire to have the state butt out of people's personal dress choices, and were proud to hide their womens' faces next his his exposed willy.
"I have heard all the arguments of those who say it is not how we want our culture to be, but that is just bigoted small mindedness, and as long as I do not hurt anyone why on earth should anyone care.
Have you looked at the statistics? No Flashists have ever been charged with robbing a bank with their willys out, so that shows how misplaced the public's concern really is, when all we are asking is the right to waggle our willys in peace, it is about our personal rights and freedoms, and those principles are far too important to ignore because a few people feel "uncomfortable" looking at a strangers willy in public. I say they need to broaden their outlook, and try to be more tolerant of other standards than their own"

When the local member spoke to Iva Bigun, he said, "we need more clear thinking people like you to show us how to stand up against bigotry."

"Well my member is standing up right now." replied Mr Bigun.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #277 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:25pm
 
This seems to be boilding down to a question of what really matters and what Australian culture is all about. On the one hand, we have those who think it is important to be able to speak your mind, even to say something you might not like. On the other we have those who think it is more important that what we say does not bother the old fashioned members of our society. On the one hand, we have those who think it is important to be able to choose what to wear. On the other, we have those who think it is more important that people fit in and choose the same thing, even if it means they have no choice. I am truly embarrassed to see so many Australians making the wrong choice, some even being such hypocrits as to pretend they are defending our freedom.

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Nobody is born with burqa or niqab so wearing it is not an inalienable right, just like having a bone through your nose isn't


But having a bone through your nose is a basic human right. It is also perfectly legal in Australia. Yet I bet if some African guy wearing one blew up the harbour bridge, you would find some silly reason why it is an affront to public morality.

No-one is born able to speak, yet freedom of speech is a fundamental human right.

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If Allah wanted women to cover their faces he would have created them with a skin flap growing from their hairline, a kind of facial hymen. But no, face covering by burqa or niqab is a choice, insofar as one has any choice under Islam.


Sorren, all freedom is about choice. That's what freedom is.
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As a choice, it has no special claim to respect.


But this isn't about respect is it? No-one is demanding you respect the choices these women make. It is about freedom, not respect - a freedom some are foolish enough to want to deny for no good reason.

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It is not a choice for an intrinsic, supra-social, transcedent good that most of us recognise as such.


That is not what freedom is. It would not be freedom if we had to justify our choices according to your (or anybody's) definition of an intrinsic, supra social, transcendant good. You seem to have a bit of trouble grasping what freedom is, don't you Soren?

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Paradoxically, one of such central ethical notions in this society is individual freeedom of choice, a notion Islam totally rejects.


The only paradox here is that you defend that freedom while at the same time rejecting it in favour of your busy-body 'supra social good'.

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So while Muslim women can claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms, they cannot also thereby deny our freedom not to respect them, not to ridicule them.


So you are not in favour of banning the burqa?

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Yet to all the useful idiots, the challenge is to continue to defend Islam on grounds Islam rejects.


This is not about defending Islam. This is about defending the right of a woman (or a man for that matter) to choose what to wear, without interfering men fretting about what signals they can read into those choices and project onto the women.

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What is pissweak is seeing idiotic arguments defending a strangers right to behave strangely in our land


That is not pissweak. That is what our soldiers fought and died for. They did not die so that some idiot could throw those rights away and start telling Australian citizens what they can and cannot wear. To this day, people still die in defending those freedoms. By rejecting it, you signal that you spit in the face of the freedoms they died for. You signal that you, not these Muslim women, reject what Australia stands for and place yourself outside of Australian society.
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for their is no greater symbol of separation from our society than masking your identity from it


Australian citizens have every right to choose a separate path for themselves, especially over something as petty as clothing. It is what makes Australia such a great country.

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So many adults are caught up in trying to appear "tolerant" of differences, that they have lost the ability to discern when those differences are having a negative, and divisive effect upon our community standards.


Trust me Mozz, most Australians are more than capable of recognising which differences have a negative effect on our society, which is why most Australians recognise that it is not a rejection of our dress standards, but a rejection of our fundamental rights and freedoms that is the great threat to our values.

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Take your young kids down to Brunswick, and see how they react when they turn around and see three women dressed in strange clothes that hide their faces, standing behind them.
You know what their reaction is, because you know that kids are honest, and you know that they will not be influenced to invent fanciful reasons to try and explain away what is a rational and reasonable reaction to confronting someone in a mask.


I have seen a child's reaction up close and personal. It is certainly not a reaction of fear or anything else we need to concern ourselves with. Not that I would let the reaction of our child dictate which freedoms we take away from people, especially if they are being lead by an adult who wets his pants every time a strong religious woman walks by.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #278 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:30pm
 
Quote:
Why on earth should we even contemplate not standing up for the openness of our society


Because freedom comes first, freedom from prying busybodies, freedom to close the door, freedom to turn away and reject you facade of friendship.

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FD and Annie  - what is the differenc between going completely covered up and completely naked, freedom of choice and tolerance-wise?


There is none. Our aversion to public nudity is also a sign of intolerance. In this respect, mainland European culture is far better than Australian culture that still clings to it's Victorian baggage. Of course, another big difference is the risks associatred with skin cancer, but that does not require banning, as personal choice is more important.

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Some actions, we believe, are permissible in private but not in public. Undressing is one of them.

Despite our Victorian baggage, there are still plenty of places and situations where it is acceptable to nude up.

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Now it is here that we begin to see the significance of the word "public" in the phrase "public morality".


There is no end to the freedoms certain people would take away in the name of public morality. Basically, they would happily use it to deny others the right to do anything they feel uncomfortable with. It is a very slippery slope and one without any rational place to draw the line, only different measures of different people's intolerance and willingness to forgo freedom in the name of conformity. There is no end to intolerance. It is a cancer on your society.

Until terrorism came along, no-one considered wearing too much clothing to be an affront to public morality. This notion of public morality shifts with the wind.

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Fair enough, Freediver. You have the better of me here, though I have always thought and made the point frequently that it's best if immigration from the Islamic world is stopped.


I believe similar things, but I would not generalise it to the Islamic world. Anyone who opposes freedom, democracy etc, should be barred immigration, no matter what ideology leads them down that path. If they reject freedom in the name of some vague and slippery notion of supra-social good, they should also be barred entry. I certainly would not reject an immigration application based on dress standards.

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Intolerant behavior towards those that engage in the act of concealing their face in a community where it is common practice to do the opposite is inevitable.


People used to say the same about women going swimming at the beach. Then they said the same about women going swimming in anything but a heavy woollen Islamic style body suit. This sillyness went right on to the bikini, though fortunately we took the last step without too much of a public outcrry. Why? Because intolerant behaviour is never inevitable.

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If the majority of Australians are indifferent towards the Burqa, perhaps you could explain these poll results?


Simple. Sampling bias.

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Maybe there's a selection bias here; I'm not suggesting that these polls are certainly representative samples. But they do reflect the general impression I've had of how regular Australians I've encountered feel about this issue.


Did you ask them whether they feel uneasy around the unfamiliar. Or did you ask them whether we should deny women the right to choose what to wear? Or did you read what you want into ambiguous comments?

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I think most Australians do not like the Burqa and even the majoirty want it outlawed.


There are plenty of choices people make that I don't like. That is how you distuinguish real freedom from pretend freedom.

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If the hijab elicits a less condemning response than the Burqa, perhaps it is not just the negative association of the Burqa with Islam that causes many to react negatively to it, as the hijab should be expected to contain the same negative association. If so many are calling for the outlawing of the Burqa, perhaps there is some aspect about that garment that truly does make uncomfortable and uneasy... the fact that the face is covered.


This is exactly the same argument that our Victorian baggage handlers made about women wearing revealing clothing.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #279 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:09pm
 
Mr Bigun thanks you for your support FD, and promises to get some of those little blue pills so he can stand to attention all day to mark his gratitude.
He just needs to know where you work so he can stand at the door and greet people with a smile, though some may call it a tumescent grin.

At least you will have somewhere to hang the flag to honour all those diggers that fought for his right to waggle in public, god bless australia, home of the free, to waggle, and mask up.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #280 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:25pm:
Quote:
As a choice, it has no special claim to respect.


But this isn't about respect is it? No-one is demanding you respect the choices these women make. It is about freedom, not respect - a freedom some are foolish enough to want to deny for no good reason.




Au contraire. it IS about respect since your notions of freedom are despised by the religion that is signified by the burqa.

The burqa is not a freedom of choice issue for a muslim woman. You may wish to think of it in those terms - or rather, you may be completly unable to think of it in any other terms - but that does not mean it is a freedom of choice issue for her. It is a respect issue for her, your respect of her religion.

A Muslim woman who reportedly accused a Sydney police officer of racism has been charged with making a false statement.
The woman was stopped by police for a random breath test on June 7.

She later told media the officer who pulled her over had tried to remove her head-dress, which conceals almost her entire face.

The woman had made numerous other complaints in a sworn statutory declaration.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/charge-over-veil-claim/story-e6frg6n...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #281 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:31pm
 
Quote:
Au contraire. it IS about respect since your notions of freedom are despised by the religion that is signified by the burqa.


You are not trying to ban the religion. You are trying to ban a symbol of it. If you want to take away people's freedom of religion, you should say so. Not pretend this is about public morality or invent other absurd justifications. Don't you think it is a rather petty way to get at the religion?

I could understand you getting upset about people defending the right of others to take away their rights. But I don't understand why you would ban what you admit is merely a symbol.

If you object to the attempts by some Muslims to take away our freedom, the rational response is to defend those freedoms. The irrational response is to take them away.

Quote:
The burqa is not a freedom of choice issue for a muslim woman.


It is if you try to ban it.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #282 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:25pm:
Quote:
Paradoxically, one of such central ethical notions in this society is individual freeedom of choice, a notion Islam totally rejects.


The only paradox here is that you defend that freedom while at the same time rejecting it in favour of your busy-body 'supra social good'.


I was talking about no intrinsic respect for the burqa. You know, it's not Allah's will.

Quote:
So while Muslim women can claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms, they cannot also thereby deny our freedom not to respect them, not to ridicule them.


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:25pm:
So you are not in favour of banning the burqa?



I am in favour of not accommodating it just like we do not accommodate nudists on our streets. There is no diffrence as far as body un/covering is concerned. there is a huge difference in meaning though (see below).

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Yet to all the useful idiots, the challenge is to continue to defend Islam on grounds Islam rejects.


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:25pm:
This is not about defending Islam. This is about defending the right of a woman (or a man for that matter) to choose what to wear, without interfering men fretting about what signals they can read into those choices and project onto the women.



This is about nothing else but defending Islam's 'freedom' to exclude itself from the agreed public sphere.


Here's Hirshi Ali, making a good point:

"I think to demand to cover your face in a public place in an era of terrorism is preposterous. For the French government, and other governments, to say, “You can wear whatever you like, but we would like to see your face”—I think that’s reasonable. I’m not talking about the face covering as a manifestation of religion, just in terms of safety. Every time I go through an airport I have to remove my shoes, my belt, my coat. After the attempted underwear bombing in the name of Islam, we have to go through a machine that scans us. So for someone to come around from that religion and say, “I demand that I cover myself”—it’s unreal."
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/05/21/why-christians-should-try-to-convert-muslims/


We want to see your face in our public space - that is the point and that is eminently reasonable. To be blind to that and to argue about freedom of choice as if this was about what kind of facinator you are wearing on Melbourne Cup day takes a particular kind of willful, practiced blindness.




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #283 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:39pm
 
Quote:
I am in favour of not accommodating it


What is that? Weasel words? Say what you mean Soren. Can Muslim women claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms?

Quote:
This is about nothing else but defending Islam's exclusion of itel from the agreed public sphere.


You have stopped making sense Soren. It is about defending the right of women to choose what to wear. You cannot deny people rights without denying those rights to yourself. All people have the right to cover their face in public. I am defending this right on behalf of all Australians, not just Muslims. Remember, it is you who keeps insisting that the burqa must only be viewed as a symbol of Islam and not as a clothing choice. It is me who insists this is about freedom. Don't get it backwards.

Quote:
I think to demand to cover your face in a public place in an era of terrorism is preposterous.


How is the burqa linked to terrorism? Does Osama bin Laden wear a burqa? Or are we back to mere symbology? You want to ban it because you asssociate it with terrorism?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #284 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:31pm:
Quote:
Au contraire. it IS about respect since your notions of freedom are despised by the religion that is signified by the burqa.


You are not trying to ban the religion. You are trying to ban a symbol of it. If you want to take away people's freedom of religion, you should say so. Not pretend this is about public morality or invent other absurd justifications. Don't you think it is a rather petty way to get at the religion?

I could understand you getting upset about people defending the right of others to take away their rights. But I don't understand why you would ban what you admit is merely a symbol.

If you object to the attempts by some Muslims to take away our freedom, the rational response is to defend those freedoms. The irrational response is to take them away.

Quote:
The burqa is not a freedom of choice issue for a muslim woman.


It is if you try to ban it.



It is not about Islam, it is about the non-Islamic public space. 
I have no concern with how people dress in mecca or tehran. THAT is one of my busness.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #285 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:49pm
 
Quote:
It is not about Islam


Haven't you been saying it should be banned because it is a symbol of Islam?

Quote:
it is about the non-Islamic public space


In what way is it non-Islamic? It is public space right? That means people of all religions may use it? Remember, you said this isn't about Islam, so I am curious how it can not be about Islam and be about declaring something non-Islamic at the same time. You seem to be struggling desperately for something real to make this about, because you can't make it about freedom and you can't make it about religion and you can't make it about 'public morality', so you keep inventing new nebulous terms to define it out of Australian society.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #286 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:39pm:
Quote:
I am in favour of not accommodating it


What is that? Weasel words? Say what you mean Soren. Can Muslim women claim the right to cover their faces on the the grounds of our freedoms?

Quote:
This is about nothing else but defending Islam's exclusion of itel from the agreed public sphere.


You have stopped making sense Soren. It is about defending the right of women to choose what to wear. You cannot deny people rights without denying those rights to yourself. All people have the right to cover their face in public. I am defending this right on behalf of all Australians, not just Muslims. Remember, it is you who keeps insisting that the burqa must only be viewed as a symbol of Islam and not as a clothing choice. It is me who insists this is about freedom. Don't get it backwards.

Quote:
I think to demand to cover your face in a public place in an era of terrorism is preposterous.


How is the burqa linked to terrorism? Does Osama bin Laden wear a burqa? Or are we back to mere symbology? You want to ban it because you asssociate it with terrorism?


Not acconmmodating it means not allowing it in public building such as chools, courts, shopping centres, banks, hotels - public places where strangers  intract with each other. Also not allowing it while in control of a vehicle. Otherwise go for your life.


I know that you do not understand it in any way but in terms of 'freedom of choice'. You do not understand that a muslim woman does not wear a burqa out of 'freedom of choice'. She wears it for religious reasons. This particular religious symbol, defacing its wearers, has a political meaning that is not motivated by freedom of choice but by its exact opposite. The burqa symbolises the removal of freedom of choice. All those women in Afghanistan and Pakistan are not wearing the burqa because they are exercising thei freedom of choice.
but you are completely oblivious to this because you can see only a parochial meaning, your meaning. You are like a monolingual man who can only repeat the same thing only louder when he is not understood in a foreign couuntry.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #287 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:49pm:
Quote:
It is not about Islam


Haven't you been saying it should be banned because it is a symbol of Islam?




God,  FD, you HAVE masterered this 'Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em' schtick, haven't you?


I said nothing of the sort you dozy maroon.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #288 - Jul 6th, 2010 at 9:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:49pm:
Quote:
It is not about Islam


Haven't you been saying it should be banned because it is a symbol of Islam?


Sorry to break this to you, but it's not required by Islam, and it's not even exclusive to Islam.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #289 - Jul 7th, 2010 at 9:18am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 7:25pm:
Quote:
It is not a choice for an intrinsic, supra-social, transcedent good that most of us recognise as such.


That is not what freedom is. It would not be freedom if we had to justify our choices according to your (or anybody's) definition of an intrinsic, supra social, transcendant good. You seem to have a bit of trouble grasping what freedom is, don't you Soren?



My point about transcendent good is that the burqa is not an ethical necessity cutting across cultures. It is not like wearing a coat in winter to keep out the cold.

It is a kind of choice that a clansman would make if he demanded the right to walk around in the KKK hood and robe. Or nudists demanding the right to choose not to wear anything in public.

These examples show the shallowness of your monomania about freeedom as if freedom was just an individual's atomistic choices. It is about an individual's choice in the society of others. Freedom is a relationship word.

The burqa, like the clansman hood, challenges the freedom and undelying social solidarity of the shared public space. Face covering signals defiance against commonly held notions of the nature of public space both on the individual level but more significantly on the level where the idea and nature of the public space is conceived: how do we relate to each other in this society. It is no less segregationist than the KKK hood (obviouly drawaing the line of segregatrion at another point.)i



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #290 - Jul 7th, 2010 at 9:49am
 
Soren wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:49pm:
Quote:
It is not about Islam


Haven't you been saying it should be banned because it is a symbol of Islam?




God,  FD, you HAVE masterered this 'Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em' schtick, haven't you?


I said nothing of the sort you dozy maroon.




You have said this many times - why deny it?

You're not pandering to the insipid accommodators, are you, old boy?

Remember, Islam is the enemy - its very purpose is to be the enemy - the enemy of every decent, God-fearing and non-tinted fellow.

Their lack of fashion sense is neither here nor there.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #291 - Jul 7th, 2010 at 10:37am
 
Why are hoods a part of the KKK uniform?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #292 - Jul 7th, 2010 at 1:38pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 7th, 2010 at 9:49am:
Soren wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:49pm:
Quote:
It is not about Islam


Haven't you been saying it should be banned because it is a symbol of Islam?




God,  FD, you HAVE masterered this 'Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em' schtick, haven't you?


I said nothing of the sort you dozy maroon.




You have said this many times - why deny it?


Because I have never said that Islam should be banned. I haven't even said that face covering should be banned. I said that they should not be given special consideration or be accommodated in the public sphere. I have also said that political Islam is the enemy of western liberal democracy and wants it replaced by sharia law.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #293 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:19pm
 
Quote:
Not acconmmodating it means not allowing it


So rather than banning it, you think we should 'not accomodate it' byt 'not allowing it'?

Quote:
in public building such as chools, courts, shopping centres, banks, hotels - public places where strangers  intract with each other


Doesn't that imply all public land, rather than just buildings? Or do you want a law like the ban on cigarrettes where these women have to move 5m from the doorway before putting it on so that they don't put you off your food?

Quote:
I know that you do not understand it in any way but in terms of 'freedom of choice'. You do not understand that a muslim woman does not wear a burqa out of 'freedom of choice'. She wears it for religious reasons.


It is you who does not understand what freedom of choice is. That is why I have to keep explaining freedom to you. Freedom to choose means that you also get to choose your reasons. If someone makes a choice for religious reasons, they are still expressing their freedom of choice. In fact, that is exactly what freedom of choice means - they do not have to justify it to people like you.

Quote:
All those women in Afghanistan and Pakistan are not wearing the burqa because they are exercising thei freedom of choice.


So now you speak for all the women in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Don't you think this is getting a little absurd Soren?

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but you are completely oblivious to this because you can see only a parochial meaning, your meaning


No Soren, I am just honest enough to admit that some women do make this choice freely, and to admit that I cannot speak for all those women and make their choices for them.

Quote:
You are like a monolingual man who can only repeat the same thing only louder when he is not understood in a foreign couuntry.


Is this meant to contrast my consistent argument with your view that it should be banned for freedom, no wait, make that supra social good, no wait it's about respect, no wait make that religion, no wait it's because of terrorism, no wait it's because it is immoral and obscene, no wait we should ban it in order to not accomodate it, no wait we should ban it because the middle east is not accomodating, no wait it's because all the women in Pakistan and Afghanistan think alike, no wait it's because a killer's husband got upset over a photo.....

Every single argument you put forward is vaccuous and hollow Soren. No wonder you have to keep making up new argument, even new terms.

Quote:
I haven't even said that face covering should be banned. I said that they should not be given special consideration or be accommodated in the public sphere.


In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear jeans? Or is it only special consideration if it's a choice you disapprove of? Also, can you explain the difference between banning something and 'not accomodating it'? In your earlier post you implied that not accomodating it means banning it.

Quote:
My point about transcendent good is that the burqa is not an ethical necessity cutting across cultures. It is not like wearing a coat in winter to keep out the cold.


What do you mean by ethical necessity? Isn't wearing a coat in the cold more of a 'practical' necessity? Are you just making up new terms?

Quote:
Freedom is a relationship word.


Can you explain this also? It is like you are inventing a new language to avoid having to put together a rational argument.

Quote:
It is a kind of choice that a clansman would make if he demanded the right to walk around in the KKK hood and robe.


But Soren, they do have that right. It is hanging black people from trees that they are not allowed to do. You are once again confusing the symbol for what it represents (to you). Are you unable to make up your mind about whether the burqa should be banned because it is a face covering or because it is part of Islam?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #294 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:19pm:
Quote:
Not acconmmodating it means not allowing it


So rather than banning it, you think we should 'not accomodate it' byt 'not allowing it'?

Quote:
in public building such as chools, courts, shopping centres, banks, hotels - public places where strangers  intract with each other


Doesn't that imply all public land, rather than just buildings? Or do you want a law like the ban on cigarrettes where these women have to move 5m from the doorway before putting it on so that they don't put you off your food?


Now that you suggest it, yes, something like that. Just as a restarant is not a place for smoking, the public sphere is not a place for self-defacement.

Private homes, private schools, clubs, mosques - cover up by all means. Public spaces that re specifically non-religious - show your face. You can keep the rest of you covered but you must face the rest of us.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #295 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:36pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:19pm:
Quote:
All those women in Afghanistan and Pakistan are not wearing the burqa because they are exercising thei freedom of choice.


So now you speak for all the women in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Don't you think this is getting a little absurd Soren?


Absurd? how so? We are tlking about why women 'chose' to wear the burqa.

Are you suggesting that in Pakistan they have different reasons for wearing it than here?


Motivation/reason for doing something is crucial and is not to be ignored, as you would have us belive. Otherwise we wouldn't distinguish between accidents and wilful wrongdoing. 



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #296 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:19pm:
Is this meant to contrast my consistent argument with your view that it should be banned for freedom, no wait, make that supra social good, no wait it's about respect, no wait make that religion, no wait it's because of terrorism, no wait it's because it is immoral and obscene, no wait we should ban it in order to not accomodate it, no wait we should ban it because the middle east is not accomodating, no wait it's because all the women in Pakistan and Afghanistan think alike, no wait it's because a killer's husband got upset over a photo.....

Every single argument you put forward is vaccuous and hollow Soren. No wonder you have to keep making up new argument, even new terms.



No. You have just listed and shown that there are indeed many, many arguments against the burqa in the west. The only reason in support of it, freedom of choice, is hollow and misplaced in this case because the reasons for wearing the burqa are not based on freedom but on wilful opposition to it.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #297 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 1:19pm:
In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear jeans?


Do you really think that covering your arse or your face is the same thing?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #298 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:19pm
 
Quote:
Public spaces that re specifically non-religious


There is no such thing as a public space that is specifically non-religious. It wouldn't be public if religion were somehow banned from it.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that in Pakistan they have different reasons for wearing it than here?


Everybody has different reasons for doing what they do. To suggest that all those women wear the Burqa for the same reason - one that is not a matter of personal choice - is absurd. I'm not sure why you fail to see the absurdity in this claim.

Quote:
Motivation/reason for doing something is crucial and is not to be ignored, as you would have us belive.


Quote me. Don't put words into my mouth.

Quote:
You have just listed and shown that there are indeed many, many arguments against the burqa in the west.


Of course there are many arguments. You have made them here. And they are all hollow and vaccuous. Being able to put any old argument together is not the same thing as making a compelling argument. Every single one of yours comes up short, which is why you chop and change so eagerly.

Quote:
The only reason in support of it, freedom of choice, is hollow and misplaced in this case because the reasons for wearing the burqa are not based on freedom but on wilful opposition to it.


No Soren. You're call to ban the burqa is based on opposition to freedom. Should we deny you freedom of speech because you use it to oppose freedom? The choice to wear the burqa is a simple expression of the freedom you oppose. Otherwise you could argue that anything at all associated with Islam could be banned because you think it is based on opposition to freedom. That is absurd. It is the association fallacy taken to the extreme.

Quote:
Do you really think that covering your arse or your face is the same thing?


I did not claim they were. I will repeat the question for you Soren. Not sure why this is necessary as you quoted it before responding, but have a go at answering it instead of putting words in my mouth.

In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear jeans?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #299 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:31pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:19pm:
In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear jeans?



Because your face is not your arse.

I can't make it plainer than that for you, FD. You are free, of course, to continue to pretend that covering your face is in no way different from covering your arse.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #300 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:33pm
 
I am not pretending anything. I am just asking you a very simple question and waiting for an answer.

In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear a hat?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #301 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:47pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:31pm:
[quote author=freediver link=1277162118/285#298 date=1278760779]

In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear jeans?



Because your face is not your arse.

I can't make it plainer than that for you, FD. You are free, of course, to continue to pretend that covering your face is in no way different from covering your arse.

regarding your earier assrtion that the KKK men are free to wear their cape and hood - they are not free to wear them on the streets. Or try donning a SS uniform on your main street. Or the hood of an executioner.



Freedom is about your relationship to the people around you - you asked me what this means. It means the difference between what you can do in the privacy of your own house and on the street. Not even you would suggest, would you, that whatever you do in your own bedroom you should be able to do on hight street.

You have made a living our of pretending to be insightful and meticulous when all you are really doing is abandoning your ability to discern.

In case you want to know what that means - it signifies the ability to make a well-founded judgement, to (dare I say it?) discriminate between different things and categories.







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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #302 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 9:33pm:
I am not pretending anything. I am just asking you a very simple question and waiting for an answer.

In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear a hat?


Well, there's your answer - covering your face IS NOT the same as covering your arse or your bald patch.

If you still need further help with this particular distinction, you should get a second opinion because I can't make it plainer for you.  The face has a particular meaning that your bald patch or arse doesn't.

If this mystifies you, perhaps you should do some reaserch. Let us know what you find.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #303 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2010 at 8:49pm:
In what way is it non-Islamic? It is public space right? That means people of all religions may use it? Remember, you said this isn't about Islam, so I am curious how it can not be about Islam and be about declaring something non-Islamic at the same time. You seem to be struggling desperately for something real to make this about, because you can't make it about freedom and you can't make it about religion and you can't make it about 'public morality', so you keep inventing new nebulous terms to define it out of Australian society.


FD - it's about showing yer face, mate. Got that?? F A C E.  It in not about religion, or islam or freedom or morality - it is about your face. It is about who the bugger are you, as the French say.  The face. FD, sound it out if you must F A C E. 'It is about the face'.



I hope this helped. I do care about you, you understand.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #304 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:17pm
 
Quote:
regarding your earier assrtion that the KKK men are free to wear their cape and hood - they are not free to wear them on the streets. Or try donning a SS uniform on your main street. Or the hood of an executioner.


Yes they are.

Quote:
Freedom is about your relationship to the people around you - you asked me what this means. It means the difference between what you can do in the privacy of your own house and on the street. Not even you would suggest, would you, that whatever you do in your own bedroom you should be able to do on hight street.


So you are redefining freedom so that it means you are not free to wear a burqa? This sounds like an argument Abu made.

A relationship between people that is based on freedom only limits what you can do when it infringes on someone else's rights and freedoms. Wearing a burqa does not do this in any way. You choose to take offence, but that is purely your choice and has nothing to do with the burqa itself.

Quote:
Well, there's your answer - covering your face IS NOT the same as covering your arse or your bald patch.


You are still not answering the actual question Soren. Try again.

In what way is the burqa being given special consideration? Do you need special consideration if you want to wear a hat?

Quote:
The face has a particular meaning that your bald patch or arse doesn't.


A face is a face Soren. It is not a word. Or maybe you think it is. Tell us Soren, what is the particular meaning of a face? What is the particular meaning of an arse?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #305 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:21pm
 
Quote:
FD - it's about showing yer face, mate. Got that?? F A C E.


It is about freedom Soren. No-one is obligued to reveal any part of their body to you, no matter how normal you think it is. You may think it is nice of people show their face or shake your hand or say gday and eat a meat pie, but it is not an obligation and never has been.

Quote:
It in not about religion, or islam or freedom or morality - it is about your face.


But you just said it is. have you changed your mind yet again about your reason for a ban? Is this because all the arguments you have made before are hollow and vaccuous?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #306 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
A face is a face Soren. It is not a word. Or maybe you think it is. Tell us Soren, what is the particular meaning of a face? What is the particular meaning of an arse?



I now see that I have been presumptious and that in your case at least your arse is as complete an identifier of who you are as your face.

My apologies.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #307 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:31pm
 
It's got nothing to do with the f.a.c.e. It's about the tinted barbarian third-worlders who are forced to worship a big, black stone.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #308 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:32pm
 
Fd,  you keep repeating that I want to ban the burqa. i don't. I just don't want to tolerate it. Am I free not to tolerate it? Does my freedom extend that far? Or do I have to tolerate face covering in the public sphere?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #309 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:33pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:31pm:
It's got nothing to do with the f.a.c.e. It's about the tinted barbarian third-worlders who are forced to worship a big, black stone.

That's an argument I haven't though of. Add it to the list.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #310 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:36pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:31pm:
It's got nothing to do with the f.a.c.e. It's about the tinted barbarian third-worlders who are forced to worship a big, black stone.




I bet you anything that the majority of burqa wearers in Australia are either converts or local born or married to either of those two categories.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #311 - Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:46pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:32pm:
Fd,  you keep repeating that I want to ban the burqa. i don't. I just don't want to tolerate it. Am I free not to tolerate it? Does my freedom extend that far? Or do I have to tolerate face covering in the public sphere?


Ah. The policy of "not tolerating." Such as "not tolerating" in government buildings, public spaces, etc. The police will enjoy policing this law.

Just I'm sure you enjoy "not tolerating" things yourself, dear.

Australia. Where every day is thoroughly untolerable.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #312 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 4:54am
 
Quote:
A relationship between people that is based on freedom only limits what you can do when it infringes on someone else's rights and freedoms. Wearing a burqa does not do this in any way. You choose to take offence, but that is purely your choice and has nothing to do with the burqa itself.
FD

The exact same argument can be made about Mr Bigun's waggling willy, which this society does not tolerate, so will you be including Flashists in your push for personal freedom FD?

The absolute long and the short of it is that the majority of Aussies do not wish to see people masked on their streets, be they in a burqa or klan hood, and who the freakin hell are you PC brigaders to tell them they do not have the freedom to make that choice about their own culture,and their own society?
If you wish to champion tolerance, then perhaps start with championing tolerance for people who like our society as it is, and do not wish to see negative impacts from the introduction of anachronistic, misogynistic, customs, from other cultures, which challenges their right to feel comfortable about wanting to interact with people face to face on their own streets.


The freedom you are championing is the freedom to shutup while our country undergoes negative changes to it's makeup and style, that the overwhelming majority do not want.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #313 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 9:39am
 
Quote:
Fd,  you keep repeating that I want to ban the burqa. i don't. I just don't want to tolerate it. Am I free not to tolerate it? Does my freedom extend that far? Or do I have to tolerate face covering in the public sphere?


As far as i can tell you mean the same thing when you say it shouldn't be tolerated. Perhaps you just meant people should have a whinge every time they see a woman in a burqa. Is that what you mean? I have asked you this a few times to clarify this, but you never have. You just repeat the same weasel words about wanting it 'not tolerated' instead of banned.

Quote:
The exact same argument can be made about Mr Bigun's waggling willy, which this society does not tolerate, so will you be including Flashists in your push for personal freedom FD?


There is a subtle yet important difference between flashers and nudists. Flashing is a sexually agressive act. Nudism is not. Just as weariong a burqa is not an agressive act. This distinction can be taken 'all the way', as more enlightened societies than our have done, not that we are far behind.

Germany:

...

...

US:

...

...

Nudity in public is protected by the constitution in Spain. Here is an explanation of spanish law and the distinction between nudity and sexuality:

http://eseduca.org/apartamento/legalidad_ing.pdf

Quote:
The absolute long and the short of it is that the majority of Aussies do not wish to see people masked on their streets


I think you'll find that the majority don't care. Australians tend to be fairly laid back people, in case you hadn't noticed. Live and let live. You really should be careful about speaking on behalf of other people. This thread is full of such claims, like Soren claiming to speak on behalf of the women of Pakistan.

Quote:
and who the freakin hell are you PC brigaders to tell them they do not have the freedom to make that choice about their own culture,and their own society?


Mozz, you are also confused about what freedom is. It does not mean that you get to make the choice for other people, for the culture etc. It means and individual gets to decide for themselves. They do not have that 'freedom' to choose for their culture. It is meaningless to describe it as a freedom, because it is the opposite of freedom.

Quote:
If you wish to champion tolerance, then perhaps start with championing tolerance for people who like our society as it is


You have every right to speak your mind and I have championed this on many occasions. But I will not support those who try to deny other people such basic human rights, especially if they are such hypocrits to do it in the name of tolerance or freedom.

Quote:
and do not wish to see negative impacts from the introduction of anachronistic, misogynistic, customs, from other cultures


The act off wearing a face covering has absolutely no negative impacts. Only your intolerance towards the practice.

Quote:
which challenges their right to feel comfortable about wanting to interact with people face to face on their own streets


This is not a right that you have. Again, you are confused about what a right is. It  makes no sense to describe this as a right, because it is the opposite of a right. A right gives people the freedom to say and do things that you might not like. That is the whole point of our rights and freedoms - so that people like you have no leg to stand on when they claim that others should  be  banned from doing something merely because you are not used to it.

Quote:
The freedom you are championing is the freedom to shutup


No Mozz. That is the opposite of what I am doing. I have also spoken out against the burqa. But I would never speak out against a woman's right to choose for herself. Do you see the difference? Achieving a positive change by enlightening people to make better choices is not the same as denying them the right to make that choice. It is the oppsoite. Denying them the right is a negative change that threatens the very fabric of our society. There is always a temptation to believe that you have such a high moral ground that you are justified in using the law to deny people basic rights and make them choose the same as you, rather than convincing them to do so of their own free will. But that temptation must always be resisted. It is through the process of trying to convince others that you will eventually realise that you are wrong, just as several others in this thread have when they tried to argue your position.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #314 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:34am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 9:39am:
Quote:
Fd,  you keep repeating that I want to ban the burqa. i don't. I just don't want to tolerate it. Am I free not to tolerate it? Does my freedom extend that far? Or do I have to tolerate face covering in the public sphere?


As far as i can tell you mean the same thing when you say it shouldn't be tolerated. Perhaps you just meant people should have a whinge every time they see a woman in a burqa. Is that what you mean? I have asked you this a few times to clarify this, but you never have. You just repeat the same weasel words about wanting it 'not tolerated' instead of banned.



I am with Jack Straw. I would not be comfortable to serve a burqa wearer in a shop or office. I would make it OK to refuse to enage with anyone who doesn't show her face.
SO if you want to improson yourself on the high street, fine. If you want to enageg with anyone, they have the right to tell you to bugger orf.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #315 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:50am
 
I see no reason for anyone to tell anyone else what they can or cannot wear.
If the Burqa is a security issue then all we need is laws to allow the appropriate identification in areas of concern such as banks etc.
Only a tiny minority of Muslim women wear the Burqa so Im sure it can be fairly easy to work with people who chose to wear it so everyone is happy with the outcome.
I would be happy to bet that as second and third generation women from families who have traditionally worn the Burqa grow up the Burqa will totally disappear from western countries and it will become a distant memory.
In 10 -20yrs time the next generation of women from these families will be staying out all night, shagging, drinking, smoking and wearing revealing clothing with the rest of their Aussie friends.   Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #316 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:53am
 
Soren wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:34am:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 9:39am:
Quote:
Fd,  you keep repeating that I want to ban the burqa. i don't. I just don't want to tolerate it. Am I free not to tolerate it? Does my freedom extend that far? Or do I have to tolerate face covering in the public sphere?


As far as i can tell you mean the same thing when you say it shouldn't be tolerated. Perhaps you just meant people should have a whinge every time they see a woman in a burqa. Is that what you mean? I have asked you this a few times to clarify this, but you never have. You just repeat the same weasel words about wanting it 'not tolerated' instead of banned.



I am with Jack Straw. I would not be comfortable to serve a burqa wearer in a shop or office. I would make it OK to refuse to enage with anyone who doesn't show her face.
SO if you want to improson yourself on the high street, fine. If you want to enageg with anyone, they have the right to tell you to bugger orf.


So you are opposed to banning the burqa by law?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #317 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 12:01pm
 
adelcrow wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:50am:
I would be happy to bet that as second and third generation women from families who have traditionally worn the Burqa grow up the Burqa will totally disappear from western countries and it will become a distant memory.
In 10 -20yrs time the next generation of women from these families will be staying out all night, shagging, drinking, smoking and wearing revealing clothing with the rest of their Aussie friends.   Smiley


I agree. In many cases they already are.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #318 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 12:05pm
 
adelcrow wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:50am:
I see no reason for anyone to tell anyone else what they can or cannot wear.
If the Burqa is a security issue then all we need is laws to allow the appropriate identification in areas of concern such as banks etc.
Only a tiny minority of Muslim women wear the Burqa so Im sure it can be fairly easy to work with people who chose to wear it so everyone is happy with the outcome.
I would be happy to bet that as second and third generation women from families who have traditionally worn the Burqa grow up the Burqa will totally disappear from western countries and it will become a distant memory.
In 10 -20yrs time the next generation of women from these families will be staying out all night, shagging, drinking, smoking and wearing revealing clothing with the rest of their Aussie friends.   Smiley



What about this
The Burqa is Ultimate Feminist Choice

http://blog.okizoo.com/2007/08/13/muslim-babe-of-the-week/
http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2009/08/31/the-burqa-the-ultimate-feminis...
...
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« Last Edit: Jul 11th, 2010 at 12:24pm by athos »  

Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
 
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #319 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 2:33pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:36pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:31pm:
It's got nothing to do with the f.a.c.e. It's about the tinted barbarian third-worlders who are forced to worship a big, black stone.




I bet you anything that the majority of burqa wearers in Australia are either converts or local born or married to either of those two categories.





One of the joys of online journalism is that you can include links to your sources, and this pleasure is never keener than when the source is a 75 page PDF of an academic report in Danish. This one contains some very useful perspective on the debate about banning burkas, to be precise, Niqabs. The Danish government thought to ask how many people such a ban would affect: the answer was something between 100 and 200.

An article on the interesting Swedish site islamologi.se picks the story up: In France, where there is an inflamed debate on the matter right now, the first investigation carried out by the police last year found that there were 367 women in France who wore burka or Niqab – 0.015% of the population. This was so low that the secret service was told to count again, and came up with a figure of 2,000; in Holland there seem to be about 400, and in Sweden a respectable guess suggests 100.

The most fascinating figure of all, though, came from the Danish researchers, who actually interviewed some of the covered women. Most were young, or at least under forty, and half of them were white converts. I think this makes it entirely clear that in modern Europe the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society, which appeals to a certain kind of extreme temperament.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/10/religion-islam

The Guardian link has links to the Danish and Swedish pages.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #320 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 3:24pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 2:33pm:
Soren wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:36pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 10th, 2010 at 10:31pm:
It's got nothing to do with the f.a.c.e. It's about the tinted barbarian third-worlders who are forced to worship a big, black stone.




I bet you anything that the majority of burqa wearers in Australia are either converts or local born or married to either of those two categories.





One of the joys of online journalism is that you can include links to your sources, and this pleasure is never keener than when the source is a 75 page PDF of an academic report in Danish. This one contains some very useful perspective on the debate about banning burkas, to be precise, Niqabs. The Danish government thought to ask how many people such a ban would affect: the answer was something between 100 and 200.

An article on the interesting Swedish site islamologi.se picks the story up: In France, where there is an inflamed debate on the matter right now, the first investigation carried out by the police last year found that there were 367 women in France who wore burka or Niqab – 0.015% of the population. This was so low that the secret service was told to count again, and came up with a figure of 2,000; in Holland there seem to be about 400, and in Sweden a respectable guess suggests 100.

The most fascinating figure of all, though, came from the Danish researchers, who actually interviewed some of the covered women. Most were young, or at least under forty, and half of them were white converts. I think this makes it entirely clear that in modern Europe the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society, which appeals to a certain kind of extreme temperament.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/10/religion-islam

The Guardian link has links to the Danish and Swedish pages.



Interesting. So it's a bit like the hippies in the 70's who grew their hair long and smoked dope.... in principle.  Undecided
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #321 - Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:15pm
 
Quote:
Most were young, or at least under forty, and half of them were white converts. I think this makes it entirely clear that in modern Europe the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society, which appeals to a certain kind of extreme temperament.


A woman's choice in clothing is indicative of an extreme temperament... Shouldn't you be crocheting doilies in the corner?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #322 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 9:02am
 
Quote:
Most were young, or at least under forty, and half of them were white converts. I think this makes it entirely clear that in modern Europe the burka is not an atavistic hangover, but a very modern gesture of disaffection from and rejection of society, which appeals to a certain kind of extreme temperament.
-From Soren's quoted report.

lol, small numbers indeed, which only adds to the right of the overwhelming majority to have their wish to not be confronted by masked people in public places.

The "ONLY" argument for allowing people to wear masks in public, is as their right to make a visual statement about their rejection of the standards of our society, and if they want to do that, they just need to come up with a way that does not hide their faces.
Here is one girl who has found a novel option, and I think it is much more appealing.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #323 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 6:56pm
 
Quote:
The "ONLY" argument for allowing people to wear masks in public, is as their right to make a visual statement about their rejection of the standards of our society,


What about their simple freedom to choose for themselves what to wear?

You can make all sorts of statements by covering your face. It's silly to pretend there is only one.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #324 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 8:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2010 at 6:56pm:
Quote:
The "ONLY" argument for allowing people to wear masks in public, is as their right to make a visual statement about their rejection of the standards of our society,


What about their simple freedom to choose for themselves what to wear?

You can make all sorts of statements by covering your face. It's silly to pretend there is only one.



Can you? Go on, tell us what other statements can you make by wearing a burqa in a western city - other than that you submit to sharia law as a woman and all that this entails for you, for your men and for all your fellow citizens in the public sphere?



Funnily enough, this just in:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3049725/Women-in-bu...


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #325 - Jul 12th, 2010 at 8:48pm
 
It has traditionally been used to communicate that you are in mouring, do not want to be spoken to, are about to get married, etc. In modern times there is of course far more individualism involved. You can make just about any statement you want.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #326 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:38am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2010 at 8:48pm:
It has traditionally been used to communicate that you are in mouring, do not want to be spoken to, are about to get married, etc. In modern times there is of course far more individualism involved. You can make just about any statement you want.


That's right, FD, It's like anything else. That makes thinking easy.

Just think about this: what happens to the non-burqa wearer in actual encounters? I mean the particular, actual person and hi/her rights when confronted by a masked woman in a shop or office? What about the dignity of that person? WHat about the interpretations of fce covering by that person? Why privilege the burqa wearer who has no claims rooted in this society and its custom or reasoning?  
I am not the only one who would be offended if I were adressed by a person who chooses to be covered when talking to me.

We teach our children to look at the person they are speaking to. In our society face has meaning and the covering of the face has different meanings, none of the ones you listed.

Muslims are supposed to fit in and follow the customs of the non-muslim places they find thmselves in. The burqa wearers in th west  breach that standard as well.








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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #327 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:09am
 
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:38am:
That's right, FD, It's like anything else. That makes thinking easy.

Just think about this: what happens to the non-burqa wearer in actual encounters? I mean the particular, actual person and hi/her rights when confronted by a masked woman in a shop or office? What about the dignity of that person? WHat about the interpretations of fce covering by that person? Why privilege the burqa wearer who has no claims rooted in this society and its custom or reasoning?  
I am not the only one who would be offended if I were adressed by a person who chooses to be covered when talking to me.

We teach our children to look at the person they are speaking to. In our society face has meaning and the covering of the face has different meanings, none of the ones you listed.

Muslims are supposed to fit in and follow the customs of the non-muslim places they find thmselves in. The burqa wearers in th west  breach that standard as well.




I know what you mean. People should cut their hair short and say 'sir' to people in authority and show some respect, and listen to ABC Classical. I mean after all we do represent the great Australian civilisation. These people - hippies, muslims etc have no business questioning the values of our society. We have no need to change anything if our society is perfect.

- and if they don't like it, they can go back to Disneyland.

Quote:
Reporter: How many people who labor in the same musical vineyard in which you toil - how many are protest singers? That is, people who use their music, and use the songs to protest the, uh, social state in which we live today: the matter of war, the matter of crime, or whatever it might be.
Bob Dylan: Um...how many?
Reporter: Yes. How many?
Bob Dylan: Uh, I think there's about, uh...136.
Reporter: You say about 136, or you mean exactly 136?
Bob Dylan: Uh, it's either 136 or 142.



Alternatively, do you reckon that people who question society in some way might actually contribute to improving it?

(I guess that was a no)
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #328 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 1:44pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:09am:
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:38am:
That's right, FD, It's like anything else. That makes thinking easy.

Just think about this: what happens to the non-burqa wearer in actual encounters? I mean the particular, actual person and hi/her rights when confronted by a masked woman in a shop or office? What about the dignity of that person? WHat about the interpretations of fce covering by that person? Why privilege the burqa wearer who has no claims rooted in this society and its custom or reasoning?  
I am not the only one who would be offended if I were adressed by a person who chooses to be covered when talking to me.

We teach our children to look at the person they are speaking to. In our society face has meaning and the covering of the face has different meanings, none of the ones you listed.

Muslims are supposed to fit in and follow the customs of the non-muslim places they find thmselves in. The burqa wearers in th west  breach that standard as well.




I know what you mean. People should cut their hair short and say 'sir' to people in authority and show some respect, and listen to ABC Classical. I mean after all we do represent the great Australian civilisation. These people - hippies, muslims etc have no business questioning the values of our society. We have no need to change anything if our society is perfect.

- and if they don't like it, they can go back to Disneyland.



You are now thinking like Abu and all the useful idiots - it is either burqa or toplessnss.

The politeness of strangers is one of the essential elements of civilisation. Just because your burqa is not torn from your face doesn't mean that people don't think that you are rude and obnoxious. What is the necessity that requires them to still go ahead and generate  such antagonism? WHat is a muslim antagonistic about to the extent that she must parade her apartness to such an extent?

Imagine - what would make you disregard the customs of a foreign place?







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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #329 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 3:45pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 1:44pm:
You are now thinking like Abu and all the useful idiots - it is either burqa or toplessnss.

The politeness of strangers is one of the essential elements of civilisation. Just because your burqa is not torn from your face doesn't mean that people don't think that you are rude and obnoxious. What is the necessity that requires them to still go ahead and generate  such antagonism? WHat is a muslim antagonistic about to the extent that she must parade her apartness to such an extent?

Imagine - what would make you disregard the customs of a foreign place?



First of all, if we have a choice between permitting topless wear and  banning the burqa, then let's ban the burqa.

Highlighted section - Don't you know the answer to that? From experience, Muslims are suspicious about the loose morals in Western Society. Like any other fundamentalist religious group, they withdraw themselves from society.

However I do take the point that it is a cultural element of Australian life that people take exception to blocking the face, especially the older generation. I saw the same attitude to wearing dark sunglasses when I was younger. Old fogies have a thing against it.

Should people be allowed to protest about aspects of their society that they disagree with? - because that's what the majority of burka wearers are doing (except for the occasional retinue of Middle Eastern Royalty)
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #330 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 4:56pm
 
locutius wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:41am:
While I personally find the Burqa draconian and reflective of a misogynistic culture. I don't think it requires banning at a general level at this stage. I certainly think there are areas that are sensitive for security reasons where it should not be allowed. Areas where identification is a requirement for instance.


This is what I said 300 odd posts ago and with everything I've read so far I am maintaining this position....sorry just wanted to still be involved.

BTW the burka wearing cartoon above is deliciously sexy and forbidden...
probably alone there
.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #331 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 4:57pm
 
My concerns with cultural dress covering the face are many, and they span across a variety of concerns.

Security is a major issue for me, I mean, why have closed circuit TV and cameras in public places (especially the CBD) if people aren't able to be identified?

If I stepped off the plane in Dubai, Iran etc wearing a "V" mask (from the film, V for Vendetta) would this be tolerated?


We are a friendly western and social people, thus believe anything covering the face has the potential to interfere with peoples capacity to both communicate non-verbally and or assimilate effectively into our existing western society, culture.

Yes, we do have one here in Australia Smiley

When you can only see someone's eyes, this and cant see/read their facial expressions, it's difficult to determine how they feel, or what they think, and this in itself creates an air of suspicion, anxiety, confusion, as most westerners are not accustomed to reading peoples irises in order to communicate non-verbally.


I personally believe anything that interferes with peoples ability to both assimilate and or communicate effectively within our country is un-Australian, this and should be discouraged.


You can tell allot about a person, about how they're feeling, their mind-set etc....just by looking at their face, and from a "former" health care professionals perspective, I would be troubled with administering pain relief e.g.-morphine to a patient who claimed they had a severe migraine, without so much as being able to gage the expression on their face.

In fact, when I was at uni, we were taught to gage the level of their pain, anxiety in accordance with a chart, so there are also health reasons for why I find this sort of head-dress obstructive and non-beneficial in our western society also.

When you immigrate to a different part of the world with a different culture, it's up to those who immigrate to assimilate, not be like rude demanding guests and expect an existing people to change their rules, their values, their existing culture and way of life to suit yourself, as the individual who wishes to form part of another's PRE-EXISTING culture.

If I were to holiday/reside in a Muslim country, out of respect I would wear a Burqa, if this is what pleased them, not wanting to distress or impose myself upon an established peoples way of life, as I would consider this to be poor form, bad mannered, disrespectful.

Smiley But do they?





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #332 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 5:32pm
 
You will find there are only a handful of women in this country who wear the Burqa. Its not a big issue
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #333 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 8:32pm
 
adelcrow wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 5:32pm:
You will find there are only a handful of women in this country who wear the Burqa. Its not a big issue



How many would be an issue? Shipping teenage girls off to the 'old' country to be married? Is that OK? Female genital 'cutting'? Is that ok if it happens only in a few cases? Polygamy? It's only a handful of people.  How many Trads and Hilalis do you need to have an 'issue'?

How many handful of people who don't give a damn about your culture and tolerance do you need to have your culture and tolerance undemined for you?




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #334 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 8:39pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 12:01pm:
adelcrow wrote on Jul 11th, 2010 at 10:50am:
I would be happy to bet that as second and third generation women from families who have traditionally worn the Burqa grow up the Burqa will totally disappear from western countries and it will become a distant memory.
In 10 -20yrs time the next generation of women from these families will be staying out all night, shagging, drinking, smoking and wearing revealing clothing with the rest of their Aussie friends.   Smiley


I agree. In many cases they already are.




Whenever I give a speech on Islam, some or other complacenik always says, "Oh, but they haven't had time to Westernize. Just you wait and see. Give it another 20 years, and the siren song of Westernization will work its magic." This argument isn't merely speculative, it's already been proved wrong by what's happened over the last 20 years. Compare the Cairo University class of 1959 with those of the 21st century, and then see if you can recite your inevitablist theories of social evolution with a straight face. The idea that social progress is like the wheel or the internal combustion engine — once invented, it can never be uninvented — is one of the laziest assumptions of the Western Left.(Mark Steyn)
1959
http://muddlingtowardmaturity.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c511153ef012877567508970c-pi



2004
http://muddlingtowardmaturity.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c511153ef0120a8542b94970b-pi

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #335 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 8:56pm
 

Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 8:39pm:
Compare the Cairo University class of 1959 with those of the 21st century, and then see if you can recite your inevitablist theories of social evolution with a straight face.


http://muddlingtowardmaturity.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c511153ef012877567508970c-pi

http://muddlingtowardmaturity.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c511153ef0120a8542b94970b-pi

Hmmnnn....a number of conclusions could be drawn from comparing those pics out of context...

Are you trying to establish that there are fewer students in 2004 than there were in 1959!?

Perhaps you are trying to prove that this university has become hopelessly female-dominated!?

One thing's absolutely certain: we should ban the burqa and/or risk facing the thinly-veiled wrath,
of the rampaging and glass-ceilling-smashing Muslim dominatrix - en masse!

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #336 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm
 
Quote:
I mean the particular, actual person and hi/her rights when confronted by a masked woman in a shop or office?


I am not aware of anything that might happen to their rights. Unless the burqa wearer punches them, or forcibly removes their hat.

Quote:
What about the dignity of that person?


What about it? You are not forced to lose your dignity by embarassing yourself over the issue. That is your choice.

Quote:
WHat about the interpretations of fce covering by that person?


Don't you think a more important question is, what will they have for dinner?

Quote:
Why privilege the burqa wearer who has no claims rooted in this society and its custom or reasoning? 


How many claims have you rooted?

Quote:
I am not the only one who would be offended if I were adressed by a person who chooses to be covered when talking to me.


It is your right to get wound up over any triviality you choose. Let's hope no-one tries to take that right from you.

Quote:
We teach our children to look at the person they are speaking to.


I actually find it easier to look a burqa clad woman in the eye as I am not distracted by any other bits. But that's just me.

Quote:
In our society face has meaning and the covering of the face has different meanings, none of the ones you listed.


I asked you before what the particular meaning of a face and an arse is. You still haven't come up with it. I have given you a few genuine meanings. The best you have got is that you lose your dignity.

Quote:
Muslims are supposed to fit in and follow the customs of the non-muslim places they find thmselves in. The burqa wearers in th west  breach that standard as well.


If you are referring to islamic law, I suggest you let the Muslims interpret the details. If you are referring to our law or custom, you are wrong.

Quote:
You are now thinking like Abu and all the useful idiots - it is either burqa or toplessnss.


Again you are wrong Soren. It is both. Or if you want to include your stuffy danish outfit, we can have all three.

Quote:
The politeness of strangers is one of the essential elements of civilisation.


I have never met an impolite person in a burqa. They are usually far more polite than those in more 'normal' garb.

Quote:
Just because your burqa is not torn from your face doesn't mean that people don't think that you are rude and obnoxious.


I prefer to judge people's politeness by how polite they actually are, not by whether they wear the same thing as me. It seems your comprehension of politeness is as bad as your understanding of freedom.

Quote:
What is the necessity that requires them to still go ahead and generate  such antagonism?


You have this backwards also Soren. It is you who creates the antagonism. There is nothing inherently antagonistic in a burqa. Only in the response of a small minority of unaustralian australians.

Quote:
However I do take the point that it is a cultural element of Australian life that people take exception to blocking the face, especially the older generation. I saw the same attitude to wearing dark sunglasses when I was younger. Old fogies have a thing against it.


Old fogies have a thing about people being free to do anything different, whether it be music, art, TV, WWF etc.

Mellie:

Quote:
Security is a major issue for me, I mean, why have closed circuit TV and cameras in public places (especially the CBD) if people aren't able to be identified?


So we should ban the burqa to assist big brother in tracking our movements? If it wasn't for this technology would your argument be moot?

Quote:
I personally believe anything that interferes with peoples ability to both assimilate and or communicate effectively within our country is un-Australian, this and should be discouraged.


I notice you didn't say banned. Was that deliberate?

Quote:
In fact, when I was at uni, we were taught to gage the level of their pain, anxiety in accordance with a chart, so there are also health reasons for why I find this sort of head-dress obstructive and non-beneficial in our western society also.


You want big brother to be able to diagnose them against their wish?

Quote:
When you immigrate to a different part of the world with a different culture, it's up to those who immigrate to assimilate, not be like rude demanding guests and expect an existing people to change their rules, their values, their existing culture and way of life to suit yourself, as the individual who wishes to form part of another's PRE-EXISTING culture.


But these women are not asking us to change any of our values. We value freedom. They are reinforcing our values.

Soren:

Quote:
How many would be an issue? Shipping teenage girls off to the 'old' country to be married? Is that OK? Female genital 'cutting'? Is that ok if it happens only in a few cases? Polygamy? It's only a handful of people.  How many Trads and Hilalis do you need to have an 'issue'?


Soren I thought you had changed your mind and decided this was about the face. Have you changed it back again now? Interfering with these women is really about Muslim men?

Quote:
Perhaps you are trying to prove that this university has become hopelessly female-dominated!?


I think he was complaining that it got over-run with coloured folk. Or maybe it's just a better camera.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #337 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:42pm
 
Feel free to direct your questions towards me, as both an Australian citizen and as an individual, this opposed to trying to muddy the waters by directing your questions to more than one individual throughout the body of your post which renders your response virtually impossible to respond to, given the length of both your extended "quotes" and this forums postal word-limitations.

I am Mellie, and am happy to respond to any questions you may have, regarding my last post.

Smiley ....

You just cant condense this sort of stuff, and expect generations of social engineering/consequence to resolve itself.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #338 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
Quote:
In our society face has meaning and the covering of the face has different meanings, none of the ones you listed.


I asked you before what the particular meaning of a face and an arse is. You still haven't come up with it. I have given you a few genuine meanings. The best you have got is that you lose your dignity.


A baby face
A face in the crowd
A face like a bulldog chewing a wasp
A face like a fiddle
A face like an unmade bed
A face like the back of a bus
A face like thunder
A face that could stop a clock
A face that only a mother could love
A long face
A poker face
About face
Arse about face
As plain as the nose on your face
At face value
Blue in the face
Cut off your nose to spite your face
Don't get a face on
Egg on your face
Face facts
Face the music
Face up to
Fly in the face of the evidence
In your face
It's written all over your face
Keep a straight face
Kick sand in his face
Laugh in your face
Laugh on the wrong side of your face
Let's face it
Let's face the music and dance
Lose face
Not just a pretty face
Off your face
On the face of it
Plain as the nose on your face
Put a brave face on
Save face
Set your face against something
Shut your face
Slap in the face
The face that launched a thousand ships
The unacceptable face of capitalism



Arse about face
Arse over tit
As busy as a one legged arse kicker
As cold as a well digger's arse
Arse in a sling
Pain in the arse
Can't be arsed
Half arsed attempt
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #339 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:51pm
 
..Hmmmm, the apparent philosophy of an ass-face phenomena... and it's applied sciences,.... lets get back on track shall we?


Smiley  Sorry to be a kill-joy.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #340 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:55pm
 
It is a mask, it's original design purpose was as a mask, it will always remain, a mask.

The rest is detritus, which I care little for, but having people going masked on the streets of our country, as part of their everyday attire is not something I wish to compromise on, irrespective of whose sensitivities my intolerance for masked people offends.

I wonder how the lot pictured below would go if they turned up on our streets?
Everybody would respect their wish to dress "differently" of course.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #341 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
I have never met an impolite person in a burqa.


...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #342 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:57pm
 

mellie wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:42pm:
Feel free to direct your questions towards me....

I am Mellie, and am happy to respond to any questions you may have, regarding my last post.

Smiley ....




Hey Mellie, by making this post, I am demonstrating how to get around the above cop-out...



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #343 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:02pm
 

Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
I have never met an impolite person in a burqa.




...

Hmmnnn....that pic suggests as much about the 'politeness' of the photographer,
as it does about the 'polite' reaction of their visibly-harassed subjects...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #344 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:09pm
 
Correct you are Moz, any garment warn in an attempt to conceal ones identity is indeed a mask, cultural self-entitlement aside.

Smiley They have choices, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable immigrating to a Muslim nation, this or would be prepared to conform to their social expectations/obligations for any great length of time.

So if westerners are such infidels, then why is it they sort our company, this and refuge?

Look, I don't know, but I think if I felt so disgusted in a western people, civilisation, their way of life culture etc...then I wouldn't regress to expecting those I condemn to hell to accommodate/keep me or my family...rather they would be the last individuals on earth I would expect to accommodate me in fact.

Cool  ..Or is it the needy ones are indeed just that....Needy?


Fact is, do you see westerners demanding refuge in your desolate nations?

Smiley...  No, we get paid to go there, (and dearly)...  whereas we pay you "the needy"  to ungratefully crap on us.

Time for a change!

They repeatedly bite the hand that feeds them, you can only bite it so much before we wake up and smell the Turkish coffee...

If they spent as much time working as they do praying on their magic carpets, then like us, they may have evolved past that of a veiled hermit crab.

Sorry Sad

You can take the Muslim off the camel, but try getting the camel out of the Muslim!

Cheesy
....

Accept the fact that you want to live with us, not the other way round...


OK!

Like needy dependants relying on westerners once again to put food in your hungry children's mouths.

Wow, how embarrassing.

Cool Yay YOU!!!

Why cant Allah feed your starving kids?

Or will you blame westerners for this too?

Cool
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #345 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
Old fogies have a thing about people being free to do anything different, whether it be music, art, TV, WWF etc.



That is eyewatringly stupid on so many levels. You are now insinuating, like Muso with his hippy analogy, that the burqa is really a socially progressive, even transgressive item and so only a fogey could possibly oppose it.


Quote:
There is nothing inherently antagonistic in a burqa.


FD, this is worth at least 2 gold Lestats. I didn't realise you were filling in for him but now I get it.
Congratulations.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #346 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:15pm
 


FFS, listen to yourselves!

From where I'm sitting, some of you sound hell-bent on scapegoating, demonising and vilifying all Muslims - and escalating a perpetual global holy war...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #347 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:31pm
 
Equalist, how is it equal, when you need us, much more than we need, or want you?

Cool Think about it.

You assimilate or you don't pass go... 

Cant have the best of both worlds, sorry Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #348 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:33pm
 
I despise all religion, but I do not despise people, especially poor buggers who have been brainwashed from birth to believe the crap that god botherers shove down their infant throats, so I disagree with people just unilaterally damning all muslims as our enemy, even though the "potential" for that to "become" true, is much greater with muslims, than with any other group in our society.

Individuals however, always deserve a fair go, and also to be treated the same as we would wish to be treated, so pointing out Islamic idiocy, is far more productive than just shitcanning muslims.

Mellie's borderline "racist" reference to camels, even though a pretty huge number of muslims would never have seen a camel in their lives, as they are confined to pretty much the arabian peninsula as far as I know, did however remind me of an old joke, so here goes.

A broken hearted man sought solitude from women, so joined the foreign legion, and noted that every saturday night his comrades would clean themselves up and head out.
After a few months, one night he finally asked where they were going, and with a gesture of his head in the direction of the camels stables the others told him, "we're going to get the camels."
While still disillusioned about women, the thought of these men with camels revolted the man, so he maintained his solitude for many more months.
Finally one night, his lustful nature could no longer be contained, and on saturday night he dashed ahead of the group towards the camels.
When his comrades arrived to find his trousers down they voiced there disgust and amazement and said, "why don't you just ride them into the massage parlour in town like we do?"
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #349 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:34pm
 
z
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #350 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:36pm
 
Do westerners owe Muslims?

Sorry, but if any of you were worth your salt, then you would have made home base back home in your own oil rich nations.

Let us have ours...

Smiley....  You had the first several thousand years to evolve past that of a burqa...it's survival of the fittest, someone had to lose.

And it wont be us.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #351 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:36pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:34pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
[quote]I mean the particular, actual person and hi/her rights when confronted by a masked woman in a shop or office?


I am not aware of anything that might happen to their rights. Unless the burqa wearer punches them, or forcibly removes their hat.

Quote:
What about the dignity of that person?


What about it? You are not forced to lose your dignity by embarassing yourself over the issue. That is your choice.


Quote:
I am not the only one who would be offended if I were adressed by a person who chooses to be covered when talking to me.


It is your right to get wound up over any triviality you choose. Let's hope no-one tries to take that right from you.




Jack Straw said he wasn't comfortable when fully veiled women came to his electoral office. Look what happened:

...


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #352 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:39pm
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:15pm:
FFS, listen to yourselves!

From where I'm sitting, some of you sound hell-bent on scapegoating, demonising and vilifying all Muslims - and escalating a perpetual global holy war...



Yeah, I know - show us your face - that vilifies everyone!!!

All I can say is - thank god I am not sitting where you are. You are so smacking sensitive and PC, every minute awake must hurt like hell, poor bugger.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #353 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:43pm
 
What I find most tragic is our indigenous in-mates being preyed upon by Muslim "elders".

Nice try, but I think our indigenous Australians don't feel like being screwed over twice....given once was degrading enough!

Muslims are only attempting to appeal to them in-order to spread their faith...to take over ...

We all know this.

Smiley

Tell me, why is it that Muslim blogs tell us that Australia will become a Muslim nation by 2050, this and governed by Muslim law?

Tell me, why is it that not one of you are so much as prepared to defend our shores, rather spend your days praying on the magic carpet sipping Turkish coffee instead?

You think we are stupid, well, guess what, think again!

And our Indigenous people aren't stupid either, they saw you coming, and have their own culture worthy of upholding,let alone yours.

Mundeen aside...  it wasn't such a great hit!

Cool
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #354 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:48pm
 
Well, I had the gumption to show you my face, can you say the same?

Smiley...Or like always, will you hide behind your veil?

-End-
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #355 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:54pm
 

Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:39pm:
Equitist wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:15pm:
FFS, listen to yourselves!

From where I'm sitting, some of you sound hell-bent on scapegoating, demonising and vilifying all Muslims - and escalating a perpetual global holy war...



Yeah, I know - show us your face - that vilifies everyone!!!

All I can say is - thank god I am not sitting where you are. You are so smacking sensitive and PC, every minute awake must hurt like hell, poor bugger.



LOL, Soren...apparently your fearfully racist outlook blinds you to my pragmatism...

If you review my posts elsewhere on these boards, you may see that I care little for being PC...

I no more support the insidious oppression of women by Muslims than I do by Catholics...

I no more support state terrorism-cum-imperialism than I do bomb-in-the-backpack terrorists...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #356 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:57pm
 
As others have pointed out, the likelihood that a woman wearing a burqa is more likely to be a young, western convert, rather than an older repressed "native" muslim, and in those circumstances it is hard to define the wearing of the mask as anything but a political statement, not a religious or cultural statement, and as we have witnessed first hand here on these boards, western converts can be the most worrying component of the muslim population, so having these people masked up is double trouble.

If it were their funny hats or scarves, or other silly religious paraphernalia, then I would side completely with those who are calling it a simple freedom of choice issue, but it is not, it is bloody masks for crying out loud, are you lot incapable of registering that simple fact?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #357 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:03pm
 

mellie wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:36pm:
Do westerners owe Muslims?

Sorry, but if any of you were worth your salt, then you would have made home base back home in your own oil rich nations.

Let us have ours...

Smiley....  You had the first several thousand years to evolve past that of a burqa...it's survival of the fittest, someone had to lose.

And it wont be us.



Sadly and ironically, the world may be a VERY different place today, if certain greedy Westerner powermongers had respectfully-engaged in the fair trade of oil - rather than parasitically-invaded oil-rich Muslim countries...


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #358 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:05pm
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:54pm:
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:39pm:
Equitist wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:15pm:
FFS, listen to yourselves!

From where I'm sitting, some of you sound hell-bent on scapegoating, demonising and vilifying all Muslims - and escalating a perpetual global holy war...



Yeah, I know - show us your face - that vilifies everyone!!!

All I can say is - thank god I am not sitting where you are. You are so smacking sensitive and PC, every minute awake must hurt like hell, poor bugger.




LOL, Soren...apparently your racist outlook blinds you to my pragmatism...

If you review my posts elsewhere on these boards, you may see that care little for being PC...

I no more support the insidious oppression of women by Muslims than I do by Catholics...

I no more support state terrorism-cum-imperialism than I do bomb-in-the-backpack terrorists...




Slogans, slogans, slogans. And reflexive equivocation. Must have equivocation.

Muslim women should not cover their faces in the west, nobody else does ? Ooohh, Catholics are no better when it comes to oppression.

Muslims blow up some soccer fans or shoppers at a market or pigrims at a Muslim shrine? Oohhh Rumsfeld, Bush, 9mperailsist war for oil, they are worse. Hmmm, Bush, talk dirty to me baby...i
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #359 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:10pm
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:03pm:
mellie wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:36pm:
Do westerners owe Muslims?

Sorry, but if any of you were worth your salt, then you would have made home base back home in your own oil rich nations.

Let us have ours...

Smiley....  You had the first several thousand years to evolve past that of a burqa...it's survival of the fittest, someone had to lose.

And it wont be us.



Sadly and ironically, the world may be a VERY different place today, if certain greedy Westerner powermongers had respectfully-engaged in the fair trade of oil - rather than parasitically-invaded oil-rich Muslim countries...





Oooohhhh, 'certain', eh?? Nudge nudge, wink, wink, say no more, eh?  'Western', eh, Western',  ooohhh, know what I mean?
'Powermongers'! Phwoar!! say no more, squire, SAY NO MORE!!






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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #360 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:11pm
 

I know that you know, where I'm coming from, Soren...

War does NOT beget genuine peace!

Vilification does NOT beget harmony!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #361 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:13pm
 
I see fault in religion, all religion in fact, given  it's been the cause of more wars than anything else throughout history.

Either way...

I might give tonight's discussion a miss.

Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #362 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:14pm
 
This is a Muslim propaganda site, nothing more....

It's a joke!


Smiley  ta ta
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #363 - Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:54pm
 

mellie wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 11:14pm:
This is a Muslim propaganda site, nothing more....

It's a joke!


Smiley  ta ta



If that's NOT a joke, then all other evidence notwithstanding, I'd suggest that you have some serious comprehension and/or perception issues...

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #364 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 7:01am
 
Yay France, go you good things.

France is home to Europe’s largest Muslim minority, with about 5 million Muslims, but it is thought that only about 2,000 women wear the full-length veil.

The bill, which critics say stigmatizes immigrants, bans people “from wearing, in a public place, garments designed to cover the face”.

Offenders would be fined 150 euros ($189) or required to take part in a citizenship class.

Forcing someone to cover their face would be punishable by a one-year prison sentence and a 30,000 euro fine. The law does not apply if the face is covered for carnivals or artistic events.

In the vote, 335 members of parliament approved the ban, with just one against. Opposition socialist and Green lawmakers abstained.


ONE vote against it! Well that is a pretty resounding victory for common sense, and common decency I would say.

Do you think that with 5 million muslims living in France, they may have a desire to create a society in which they can all get along in, or are they just persecuting the muslim population for fun?

The ratbag extremist element deserves no succour from any western society, and bleeding hearts who provide such are bloody fools.

Their country, their standards, "FAIR" enough.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #365 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:30am
 

Only about 2,000 out of around 5,000,000 Muslims out of a population of approx. 65,000,000, eh!?

Hmmnnn....clearly, in the context of the greatest global financial turmoil of our lifetimes, the massive investment of lawmaking time and resources into the discriminatory banning of the head-dress of 2,000 women (for the sake of vilifying a significant minority group of 5,000,000) was worth the escalation of domestic social unrest and international tensions, then!?

Bigoted fools!

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« Last Edit: Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:40am by Equitist »  

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #366 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 9:03am
 
Today's Poll2 221 votes since Jul 11 2010

Should Australia ban the burqa?
Yes 88% 1947 votes
No 12% 274 votes

http://au.news.yahoo.com/polls/popup/-/poll_id/55404



This is what happens when useful idiots keep saying to ordinary people that they are bigots for noticing the antagonism expressed by face covering.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #367 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 9:12am
 
Alright! I'm sure banning the Burqa is going to induce those 5 million or so Muslim citizens to integrate and become happy little Frenchmen in no time at all. The French should let in another seven or so million for good measure; a few million Africans for additional enrichment may be required as well. I would suggest African Muslims, but they are the two in one conditioner and shampoo of the diversity world. To get the maximum amount of shine from your daily diversity routine you need to apply both separately.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #368 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 9:33am
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:30am:
Only about 2,000 out of around 5,000,000 Muslims out of a population of approx. 65,000,000, eh!?

Hmmnnn....clearly, in the context of the greatest global financial turmoil of our lifetimes, the massive investment of lawmaking time and resources into the discriminatory banning of the head-dress of 2,000 women (for the sake of vilifying a significant minority group of 5,000,000) was worth the escalation of domestic social unrest and international tensions, then!?

Bigoted fools!




I always remember an ammonia tanker incident in Dakar, Senegal. The French army decided to intervene. "We blow it up." they decided.

The result ? 129 dead and about 1100 injured.

Similar ammonia tanker incident in Murarrie, a suburb of Brisbane. They decided to allow it to gas off over several days. The result? No fatalities and no injuries.

That's just one example. What is it about the French and common sense ?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #369 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 9:48am
 
muso wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 9:33am:
Equitist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:30am:
Only about 2,000 out of around 5,000,000 Muslims out of a population of approx. 65,000,000, eh!?

Hmmnnn....clearly, in the context of the greatest global financial turmoil of our lifetimes, the massive investment of lawmaking time and resources into the discriminatory banning of the head-dress of 2,000 women (for the sake of vilifying a significant minority group of 5,000,000) was worth the escalation of domestic social unrest and international tensions, then!?

Bigoted fools!




I always remember an ammonia tanker incident in Dakar, Senegal. The French army decided to intervene. "We blow it up." they decided.

The result ? 129 dead and about 1100 injured.

Similar ammonia tanker incident in Murarrie, a suburb of Brisbane. They decided to allow it to gas off over several days. The result? No fatalities and no injuries.

That's just one example. What is it about the French and common sense ?  



There's no Gloire in common sense, you English types. Boil your bottoms. And no, there isn't someone else you can talk to...


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #370 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:12am
 
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:36pm:
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 10:34pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
[quote]I mean the particular, actual person and hi/her rights when confronted by a masked woman in a shop or office?


I am not aware of anything that might happen to their rights. Unless the burqa wearer punches them, or forcibly removes their hat.

Quote:
What about the dignity of that person?


What about it? You are not forced to lose your dignity by embarassing yourself over the issue. That is your choice.


Quote:
I am not the only one who would be offended if I were adressed by a person who chooses to be covered when talking to me.


It is your right to get wound up over any triviality you choose. Let's hope no-one tries to take that right from you.




Jack Straw said he wasn't comfortable when fully veiled women came to his electoral office. Look what happened:

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/photos/women-stoning/images/Muslim%20Women.jpg




This merely shows they have the right to be stupid as well.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #371 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:19am
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:30am:
Only about 2,000 out of around 5,000,000 Muslims out of a population of approx. 65,000,000, eh!?

Hmmnnn....clearly, in the context of the greatest global financial turmoil of our lifetimes, the massive investment of lawmaking time and resources into the discriminatory banning of the head-dress of 2,000 women (for the sake of vilifying a significant minority group of 5,000,000) was worth the escalation of domestic social unrest and international tensions, then!?

Bigoted fools!



Bigoted fools!


That is a major concern to me, that so many who raise the issue of the the burqa are actual, bigoted fools.

I may feel uncomfortable finding myself in such company, and believe me when I say that just seeing some of the people who I agree with on this issue makes me wish I felt differently about it, because I despise them as ignorant, racist, boors, but at the end of the day, the questions remain, should we allow people to wear masks in public because they claim it as a personal, cultural, or religious imperative?

I always come to the same answer, no, it is not reasonable for these people to go about masked in public for such petty reasons.

The issue of wearing apparel as an outward display of your religious convictions is altogether a separate question, and one I have mixed feelings about.
I do see a potential for problems in regard to cultural sensitivities, but I have no issue with adults choosing whatever dress they feel is appropriate, within the bounds of common decency.

So while I may not be the bigot you had in mind, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of average people and the small minority of bigots, happen to agree that wearing masks in public is not what we want in our society.

So who is telling us we do not have the right to think that way?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #372 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:47am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:19am:
That is a major concern to me, that so many who raise the issue of the the burqa are actual, bigoted fools.

I may feel uncomfortable finding myself in such company, and believe me when I say that just seeing some of the people who I agree with on this issue makes me wish I felt differently about it, because I despise them as ignorant, racist, boors, but at the end of the day, the questions remain, should we allow people to wear masks in public because they claim it as a personal, cultural, or religious imperative?



Search your soul Mozzaok  Grin and tell me that you don't have a fair dinkum bigoted prejuduce against religions.  Grin Grin

Today I've decided to be a Sufi.  Shocked
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #373 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:53am
 
Does a venomous, searing hatred count as bigoted? Grin
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #374 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 11:06am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:53am:
Does a venomous, searing hatred count as bigoted? Grin


That's the devil in you talkin' bo'.  Wink
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #375 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 11:36am
 
I find their unwillingness, lack of want to assimilate more troubling than the act of them wearing a burqa itself, and as much as I would like to think they themselves would take the initiative to want to assimilate into western society of their own accord, it's clear to me the real tragedy here is that some Muslims don't really want to, rather want to attract attention to their religion this and use media sensationalism like this to spool their agenda.
Banning the burqa will only result in more Muslim victim speak,  animosity, hostility, outrage which in turn only stands to advantage them, as the do-gooder left pander to their minority needs, this and continue bending over backwards to demonstrate how WE ARE NOT A RACIST NATION, by means of letting more and more into our country.

See, the more we condemn them, the more likely they are to play the reverse racism card,...as we desperately grapple about trying to prove to the world we are not racist, by means of overcompensating  in other areas, ie, immigration.

STOP-IT!

Ultimately the onus is on ourselves in terms of who we process/allow into our country and so long as we continue indiscriminately immigrating and positively reinforcing their reverse racism process/agenda in the name of "political correctness", who other than ourselves do we have to blame?

Gillards sustainable population minister needs to get serious about our existing immigration policies, our intelligence needs an overhaul, (we still haven't caught up with Europe, this and are far too laid back/easy going and ignorant for our own good.

The "Banning of the Burqa"  hype is once again being spooled by those with an agenda who wanted to allude to Australians as being a fundamentally racist and intolerant nation....it's reverse racism at it's best.
And who was it that suggested that their burqa be banned to begin with?

 Cool
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #376 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 12:22pm
 

france leads the way in secular democracies defending themselves.
other "liberal tolerant" countries of europe are agreeing wiht the stance france has taken.
islam and muslims have no place in a secular nation.
go back to your own islamic backward repressed countries



Quote:
BURQAS are officially banned in France after the French National Assembly passed the bill with only a single vote against it.

If approved by the Senate and Constitutional Council the law would impose a 150 euro (AUD$216) fine or a lesson in citizenship on any woman wearing the Islamic all-body veil in public.

Men caught forcing a woman to wear it, could face a one year jail sentence and pay a 30, 000 euro (AUD$43,200) fine.   

Although France has the largest Muslim community in Europe, there are believed to only be 2000 women who wear the burqa.




http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/burqas-officially-banned-in-france/stor...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #377 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 12:31pm
 
Quote:
france leads the way in secular democracies defending themselves.


Not even close. If it did, it wouldn't have five million Muslims in it.

It's the little European countries like Austria, Hungary and Belgium (or should I say, Flanders) that are undergoing major changes. France is well behind.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #378 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 1:39pm
 
Is this the McCarthyism version II thread?

Muslims under the bed.

Substitute Australia for America,  and Islam for Communism and let's just go hunting.  Don't worry about evidence. The inherent hate in Australian society will get us there.

When all the Muslims are gone, who will be next?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #379 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 1:56pm
 
Had France nipped the decline of their existing culture and put a stop to irresponsible immigration when they had the chance, they wouldn't have been faced with churning out controversial-excessive laws like this to begin with in order to tackle their Muslim problem.

Desperate times called for desperate measures, and it wasn't until their own culture began to disappear (not at all a good look for French tourism)...when in a state of panic did they resort to drastic measures such as banning the burqa to bring about change and civil rest, given their people were outraged by their former governments in discriminant immigration policies.
Sound familiar?

Too late!  The damage is done... French- Muslims are there to stay, with or without their (eye-rape armour) aka burqas, this and will continue to breed like rabbits in warrens spreading the word of Allah throughout disadvantaged generations of French youth to come who are outraged by the overall rape of their nation so turn to a faith that promises retribution and justice. This is why Islam is so appealing to down-trods and outcasts. Why do you suppose Muslim Sheiks/muftis lurk about in prisons, recruiting indigenous Australians?
They know they are already angry with white Australians this and p8ssed off with our western-laws, so converting them is a piece of cake.
Shutting the gate after the horse has bolted is a rather punitive measure, compared to what should have been done to retain/protect their existing culture when they first realised things were getting out of hand on the immigration front over in France.
But like so many western nations, they thought they could immigrate their way through a global recession/downturn, this and possibly even thwart it with some degree of optimism...(what a joke)...  This only prolongs the inevitable, something we Australians have yet to realise.
We need to learn from others mistakes,(Particularly France and Britain).. and think to a degree, we are learning, slowly, hence some nations accuse us of being overly protectionist, and in some cases racist.
I think we are more protectionist than racist, and for good reason if  France is any indication of what irresponsible immigration and the  Islamification of a western nation can amount to.

If it's going to be done, then it has to be done now,(Stop immigrating known to be problematic groups which conflict with our existing western culture)... lets not wait until the situation gets so out of control that like France, we have to regress to passing controversial archaic laws to contend with the mess.

We need to stop being so 'correct'...'polite'...  and just accept our past mistakes for what they are so we can work towards creating meaningful policies to sustain and preserve future generations of EXISTING-Australians to come, this opposed to burdening our offspring with illegal immigrants. Angry
Better they (Illegal immigrants) cry now, than we later....
because  we will be doing just that if we continue allowing them to play the reverse racism victim card.

Someone has to make the hard decisions, and not everyone will be happy with them...but it has to be done!

Does Gillard have the balls?
Does Abbot have the balls?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #380 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:02pm
 
Quote:
When all the Muslims are gone, who will be next?

Redheads
Men with moustaches

Take your pick, what you say is 100% true, these xenophobes would be the offspring of Protestants who hated Catholics and Catholics who hated people who were lefthanded, all tards.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #381 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:10pm
 
I firmly believe Julia Gillard knew East Timor would reject her offer re- detaining refugees off-shore, just hoped they would have declined after the next election, not before.

She needs to get serious about our border security, A predominantly Christian/Catholic Timor–Leste  (East Timor) doesn't want to detain  illegal predominantly Muslim immigrants this and if they did agree to do so, would be wanting to be generously reimbursed for their trouble.

My solution.....

The minute they arrive, put them on planes and send them straight back to where they came from.

Where  are all these “refugees” coming from?

From what country are  they considered to be “refugees?”

How can they be Islamic  “refugees” from an Islamic country?

Why are they all  selecting Australia as their destination? Why not some other Islamic  country? Hmmmmm!

This is a thinly camouflaged sell-out of our country.

It really is now or never,  future generations of Australians depend so much on the smart choices we make for them today.

Lets not become another France, lets be more pragmatic, socially responsible with respects to the cohesiveness of our young western country.

Presuming you still want to call it home in another 10 years or so this is.

Roll Eyes





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #382 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:16pm
 
Yep the reds under the bed are alive and well in loopy rightard land.
What concerns me the most are these people no matter how much it is explained to them choose to believe propaganda over fact, and we let these tards vote. Angry
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #383 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:33pm
 
Don't hurtle towards a big Australia says PM.

Julia Gillard has urged against a "Big Australia" saying people need to Stop, take a breath and develop policies for a sustainable nation.
Source: Sun Herald,27 June 2010.

And this is why she claims to have appointed a Minister for Sustainable Population to develop policies for a sustainable Australia.

Now, what policies has this new minister brought to the table since having been appointed?

Kevin Rudd announced on 3 April 2010 that the inaugural Minister for Population would be Tony Burke. After the leadership change, Julia Gillard renamed the portfolio, yet the Minister remains the same.

All talk and no action... so where are these policies Gillard herself insisted needed to be developed?

No more campaign leaflets thanks Julia, I prefer a PM to put their money where their mouth is, not in my letterbox in the form of campaign propaganda.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #384 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:41pm
 
And Skippy, (cough), can you tell us why Muslim refugees embark on non-Muslim western nations?

Is it that they want to be saved from themselves?

Why not embark on some other Muslim country, does this not sound odd to you?

Smiley....

Tony Burke is Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, and now a sustainable population also.

It sounds to me as though the title "Minister for sustainable population" is nothing short of a white elephant, a mere title to satisfy the Australian public's immigration/population concerns in order to create the illusion that their current government are indeed serious about appointing someone (who already has his hands quite full ) to a half-azzed position only secondary to his more "primary" responsibilities of which is Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry.

But the appointment of a Minister for Responsible population sounds good doesn't it, especially in the lead-up to the next federal election.

You may see what our new population Minister has been getting up to on Twitter as of late.

Not much by the looks of it...not on the population front anyway.

Another Labor white elephant!



http://twitter.com/tony_burke

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #385 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 3:34pm
 

i see few christians imose themselves upon islam countries pleading "refuge" and claiming free accommodation, food, net access, medical ....................

personally, they can bugger off
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #386 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 4:38pm
 

mozzaok wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:19am:
Equitist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:30am:
Only about 2,000 out of around 5,000,000 Muslims out of a population of approx. 65,000,000, eh!?

Hmmnnn....clearly, in the context of the greatest global financial turmoil of our lifetimes, the massive investment of lawmaking time and resources into the discriminatory banning of the head-dress of 2,000 women (for the sake of vilifying a significant minority group of 5,000,000) was worth the escalation of domestic social unrest and international tensions, then!?

Bigoted fools!



Bigoted fools!


That is a major concern to me, that so many who raise the issue of the the burqa are actual, bigoted fools.

I may feel uncomfortable finding myself in such company, and believe me when I say that just seeing some of the people who I agree with on this issue makes me wish I felt differently about it, because I despise them as ignorant, racist, boors, but at the end of the day, the questions remain, should we allow people to wear masks in public because they claim it as a personal, cultural, or religious imperative?

I always come to the same answer, no, it is not reasonable for these people to go about masked in public for such petty reasons.

The issue of wearing apparel as an outward display of your religious convictions is altogether a separate question, and one I have mixed feelings about.
I do see a potential for problems in regard to cultural sensitivities, but I have no issue with adults choosing whatever dress they feel is appropriate, within the bounds of common decency.

So while I may not be the bigot you had in mind, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of average people and the small minority of bigots, happen to agree that wearing masks in public is not what we want in our society.

So who is telling us we do not have the right to think that way?


I hear you Moz - and I share most of your sentiments...

Whether or not I personally support the wearing of the Burqa (which BTW I don't), I am extremely disturbed by the nature and extent of the efforts being made to ban it...

'We Westerners' need to address not only the domestic racist undercurrents but also take a long, hard and honest look at the toxic symptoms that 'we' have created around the world, in 'our' reckless promotion of 'globalisation' - and then take an appropriate degree of responsibility for remedying the damage...

Yer, I know: far more easily said than done...but do something positive 'we' must - and pronto!



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #387 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 4:46pm
 

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 3:34pm:
i see few christians imose themselves upon islam countries pleading "refuge" and claiming free accommodation, food, net access, medical ....................

personally, they can bugger off


The sooner that 'we Westerners' acknowledge international refugee issues as mere symptoms of more serious global socio-economic ills - and start to take positive preventative steps to address same at the source/s - the sooner that there will be fewer unwanted arrivals to stress over...


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #388 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 6:25pm
 
And as soon as our free-loaders start being tugged back out to sea well away from our Australian boarders, you will realise that charity truly does  begin at home, this and you should work towards building your own nations/empires, this opposed to sapping off and dismantling other peoples.

Smiley...   Go have a cry Dorothy, toto misses you.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #389 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 6:34pm
 
Quote:
The sooner that 'we Westerners' acknowledge international refugee issues as mere symptoms of more serious global socio-economic ills - and start to take positive preventative steps to address same at the source/s - the sooner that there will be fewer unwanted arrivals to stress over


Yes. And it'd be nice if we hurried. More than 7 million people may face starvation over the next couple of months in Niger. There's something seriously wrong with the world when some of its citizens have a surplus of bullsh1t while the rest don't have even the most basic of necessities.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #390 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 6:36pm
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 4:46pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 3:34pm:
i see few christians imose themselves upon islam countries pleading "refuge" and claiming free accommodation, food, net access, medical ....................

personally, they can bugger off


The sooner that 'we Westerners' acknowledge international refugee issues as mere symptoms of more serious global socio-economic ills - and start to take positive preventative steps to address same at the source/s - the sooner that there will be fewer unwanted arrivals to stress over...





This is meaningless drivel, cliche upon cliche. You would not have one half-feasible idea even if your life depended on it. Mere sloganeering makes you warm and righteous. Sad.

Attack it at source? How? Send them a pencil set for the kiddies' school and and a goat for the village? How would you tackle barbarity and violence, corruption, sloth, graft and the massive chip on their shouldres?



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #391 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 7:58pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
Quote:
In our society face has meaning and the covering of the face has different meanings, none of the ones you listed.


I asked you before what the particular meaning of a face and an arse is. You still haven't come up with it. I have given you a few genuine meanings. The best you have got is that you lose your dignity.


A baby face
A face in the crowd
A face like a bulldog chewing a wasp
A face like a fiddle
A face like an unmade bed
A face like the back of a bus
A face like thunder
A face that could stop a clock
A face that only a mother could love
A long face
A poker face
About face
Arse about face
As plain as the nose on your face
At face value
Blue in the face
Cut off your nose to spite your face
Don't get a face on
Egg on your face
Face facts
Face the music
Face up to
Fly in the face of the evidence
In your face
It's written all over your face
Keep a straight face
Kick sand in his face
Laugh in your face
Laugh on the wrong side of your face
Let's face it
Let's face the music and dance
Lose face
Not just a pretty face
Off your face
On the face of it
Plain as the nose on your face
Put a brave face on
Save face
Set your face against something
Shut your face
Slap in the face
The face that launched a thousand ships
The unacceptable face of capitalism



Arse about face
Arse over tit
As busy as a one legged arse kicker
As cold as a well digger's arse
Arse in a sling
Pain in the arse
Can't be arsed
Half arsed attempt


I thought you said a face had a specific meaning. That looks like lots of meanings to me.

BTW you left 'a veiled face' off your list.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #392 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 7:59pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:57pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
I have never met an impolite person in a burqa.


http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_02/muslimwomPA0601_468x349.jpg


That is the peace sign Soren.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #393 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:07pm
 
The peace sign, lol, seems you have your sign language back the front, as well as your attitude towards masking up in public, and seriously, "the veil", talk about a euphemism, more like a freakin canvas tent.

So up yours,(both), or is that the peace symbol? Grin

(I know you were just taking the piss out of Soren, so I thought I would respond in kind. I know you would not really mix up the peace sign, with the up yours sign.)
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #394 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 8:15pm
 
In many cultures it is also the victory sign.

But you are probably right. She was just ordering a kebab and one for her friend.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #395 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 9:16pm
 


'Re: Ban the Burqa'


Seriously, it is debates like this that provide good arguments for banning the bunkum of all bloody religions!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #396 - Jul 14th, 2010 at 10:34pm
 
The French Govt is very keen to push through its legislation banning the burqa. A diverse lot in France these days, a wee trip out of the Paris CBD shows up a lot of folks from all over the world.

There some pretty hairy race riots a year or two ago?

Assimilation into the community is what this is all about. The parallels with western culture being ignored and banned in the gulf states and banning the burqa mean in theory if they can we should.   Also learning English S,R & W, being able to communicate with your neighbour, the local shops your local MHR... if you are so inclined.

Leave you with this thought. A good friend of mine is an Occupational Therapist she said during the late 80's and 90's a lot of folks from Greece, Italy etc had serious heart attacks and strokes. Dependent on the area of the brain affected, they lost the ability to communicate in English, they only communicated in their native langauge until they passed away.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #397 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 8:07am
 
mellie wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:10pm:
I firmly believe Julia Gillard knew East Timor would reject her offer re- detaining refugees off-shore, just hoped they would have declined after the next election, not before.

She needs to get serious about our border security, A predominantly Christian/Catholic Timor–Leste  (East Timor) doesn't want to detain  illegal predominantly Muslim immigrants this and if they did agree to do so, would be wanting to be generously reimbursed for their trouble.

My solution.....

The minute they arrive, put them on planes and send them straight back to where they came from.

Where  are all these “refugees” coming from?

From what country are  they considered to be “refugees?”

How can they be Islamic  “refugees” from an Islamic country?

Why are they all  selecting Australia as their destination? Why not some other Islamic  country? Hmmmmm!

This is a thinly camouflaged sell-out of our country.

It really is now or never,  future generations of Australians depend so much on the smart choices we make for them today.

Lets not become another France, lets be more pragmatic, socially responsible with respects to the cohesiveness of our young western country.

Presuming you still want to call it home in another 10 years or so this is.

Roll Eyes




You make a lot of assumptions. Currently there are about equal numbers of Sri Lankans (Tamils and Sinhalese) and Afghans (mostly Hazara - a persecuted minority)

The Sinhalese are mostly jumping on the bandwagon, and most of them have been sent home already. The Tamils are mostly Hindu and the Sinhalese refugees, a mixture of mainly Buddhist and a few Christian.

You blandly make the assumption that a Muslim is a Muslim and that they all belong together. This is a gross simplification of what is a very complicated matter. (After all, Iraq did invade Kuwait - another Muslim country, and then there was Iran and Iraq who speak different languages but have the same religion)  

Religion is not the only reason for persecution. Nationality or even language can fuel suspicion and hatred too. For example most of the Kurds are Sunni Muslims, but they are persecuted by other Sunni Muslims and Shia alike. They speak Kurdish.  Bigots are not restricted to being religious bigots. (Well I probably don't need to explain that - you'd know)

Incidentally a few Iraqi refugees (we don't see many these days) are actually Christians. There are also Mandeans, Iraqi Jews, Yazidis, Yarsan, Shabak and Bahá'ís. All of these minorities are having a very difficult time staying alive under the current Iraqi regime.

Information is from a friend who used to work for immigration.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #398 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 9:47am
 
Soren wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 6:36pm:
Equitist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 4:46pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 3:34pm:
i see few christians imose themselves upon islam countries pleading "refuge" and claiming free accommodation, food, net access, medical ....................

personally, they can bugger off


The sooner that 'we Westerners' acknowledge international refugee issues as mere symptoms of more serious global socio-economic ills - and start to take positive preventative steps to address same at the source/s - the sooner that there will be fewer unwanted arrivals to stress over...





This is meaningless drivel, cliche upon cliche. You would not have one half-feasible idea even if your life depended on it. Mere sloganeering makes you warm and righteous. Sad.

Attack it at source? How? Send them a pencil set for the kiddies' school and and a goat for the village? How would you tackle barbarity and violence, corruption, sloth, graft and the massive chip on their shouldres?





Show them something better. Show them better behaviour.

The West should understand that quality of life does not revolve around just owning things...other cultures value community and family, for the moment at least.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #399 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 11:44am
 
locutius wrote on Jul 15th, 2010 at 9:47am:
Soren wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 6:36pm:
Equitist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 4:46pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 3:34pm:
i see few christians imose themselves upon islam countries pleading "refuge" and claiming free accommodation, food, net access, medical ....................

personally, they can bugger off


The sooner that 'we Westerners' acknowledge international refugee issues as mere symptoms of more serious global socio-economic ills - and start to take positive preventative steps to address same at the source/s - the sooner that there will be fewer unwanted arrivals to stress over...





This is meaningless drivel, cliche upon cliche. You would not have one half-feasible idea even if your life depended on it. Mere sloganeering makes you warm and righteous. Sad.

Attack it at source? How? Send them a pencil set for the kiddies' school and and a goat for the village? How would you tackle barbarity and violence, corruption, sloth, graft and the massive chip on their shouldres?





Show them something better. Show them better behaviour.




That's predictably - and unselfconsciously - patronising. You think of them as children, or at any rate, as less able to self-determine than westerners.  They need modelling and scaffolding and conditioning and rewards to do the right thing. You imply that they are too stupid - look they are only copying the bad things from the west when it's all left to them to decide what to copy.

I think it is entirely their responsibility to decide what and how they copy and don't copy and then live with the consequences. I take them to be just as able to take responsibility for themselves as the west is. You deny them that ability, largely in order to beat yourself (the West) with the stick of their adolescence.






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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #400 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 12:06pm
 
Great to see that the banning of the burqua is gathering momentum.
Viva Le' France.

Our style of freedom has always been used as a foothold for muslims to deny freedoms in every which way, shape and form. They will not be using their own breach of freedom to encroach upon ours.

This is a good win for western freedom.
Rack off muzzies, you really have no place here.





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #401 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 12:30pm
 

[/quote]

You make a lot of assumptions. Currently there are about equal numbers of Sri Lankans (Tamils and Sinhalese) and Afghans (mostly Hazara - a persecuted minority)

The Sinhalese are mostly jumping on the bandwagon, and most of them have been sent home already. The Tamils are mostly Hindu and the Sinhalese refugees, a mixture of mainly Buddhist and a few Christian.

You blandly make the assumption that a Muslim is a Muslim and that they all belong together. This is a gross simplification of what is a very complicated matter. (After all, Iraq did invade Kuwait - another Muslim country, and then there was Iran and Iraq who speak different languages but have the same religion)  

Religion is not the only reason for persecution. Nationality or even language can fuel suspicion and hatred too. For example most of the Kurds are Sunni Muslims, but they are persecuted by other Sunni Muslims and Shia alike. They speak Kurdish.  Bigots are not restricted to being religious bigots. (Well I probably don't need to explain that - you'd know)

Incidentally a few Iraqi refugees (we don't see many these days) are actually Christians. There are also Mandeans, Iraqi Jews, Yazidis, Yarsan, Shabak and Bahá'ís. All of these minorities are having a very difficult time staying alive under the current Iraqi regime.

Information is from a friend who used to work for immigration. [/quote]

Hi Muso

I too know of a former Immi staffer who told of similar issues with new arrivals as in legit not by boat. The levels of religious intolerance is very high in some countries. Sadams lot the b'ath persecuted the marsh Arabs and those in the north??  Similairly the hazarahs (sp) were in a rock and a hard place with their beliefs.

Only observations here folks that all is not what it seems.  I suppose what galls a few is, why after running for you and your families lives do their ID documents get destroyed?? One speculation is that the people smugglers don;t like to leave a paper trail as it will eventually lead to back to them. Intel is intel.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #402 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 2:11pm
 
jcheeverloophole wrote on Jul 15th, 2010 at 12:30pm:
Hi Muso

I too know of a former Immi staffer who told of similar issues with new arrivals as in legit not by boat. The levels of religious intolerance is very high in some countries. Sadams lot the b'ath persecuted the marsh Arabs and those in the north??  Similairly the hazarahs (sp) were in a rock and a hard place with their beliefs.

Only observations here folks that all is not what it seems.  I suppose what galls a few is, why after running for you and your families lives do their ID documents get destroyed?? One speculation is that the people smugglers don;t like to leave a paper trail as it will eventually lead to back to them. Intel is intel.    


There are all kinds of reasons. Maybe they had to leave in a hurry. Maybe they didn't have documentation, maybe they destroyed the documentation because people smugglers told them to.

Either way, Australia is signatory to the Geneva Convention on refugees. If we started sending people home just because they don't have any paperwork, we would be in breach of that convention.

Does Australia accept more than our fair share of refugees?

Do some research -

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1294102/At-a-glance-Who-takes-the-most-refuge...

Quote:
Australia was 68th on a per capita basis and 91st relative to national wealth.



It's amazing how a few facts and figures can blow away misconceptions.

Quote:
Asylum applications in 2009

South Africa received the highest number of asylum applications in 2009: 222,324.

Other leading countries for asylum applications were the Republic of Congo (95,945), Kenya (87,879), Ethiopia (45,763), France (42,118), Malaysia (40,063), Uganda (36,878), Ecuador (35,514), Yemen (34,471) and Canada (33,970).

The industrialised countries with the largest number of asylum applications in 2009 were the
United States (49,020), France (41,980), Canada (33,250), United Kingdom (29,840),
Germany (27,650) and Sweden (24,190).

Australia was ranked 33rd for total asylum applications with 6206 new applications in 2009.

It was 41st on a per capita basis and 71st relative to national Gross Domestic Product (GDP).


Also see the Amnesty International site:

http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/23271/
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #403 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 2:46pm
 
mellie wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:10pm:
I firmly believe Julia Gillard knew East Timor would reject her offer re- detaining refugees off-shore, just hoped they would have declined after the next election, not before.

She needs to get serious about our border security, A predominantly Christian/Catholic Timor–Leste  (East Timor) doesn't want to detain  illegal predominantly Muslim immigrants this and if they did agree to do so, would be wanting to be generously reimbursed for their trouble.

My solution.....

The minute they arrive, put them on planes and send them straight back to where they came from.



Nice try. As signatories to the 1951 Convention on Refugees, we can't send refugees back on by plane, boat, car, or on foot. We have agreed to process their claims for refugee status and grant assylum where necessary.

This is why the Howard government sent them offshore: so that they wouldn't have their claims processed here.

It was a political solution, of course, not a "pragmatic" one. 90% of claimants on Nauru were found to be genuine refugees and ended up in Australia anyway.

This is why the Labor government wants the "processing centre" to be in a country that is a signatory to the Convention on Refugees - they can be processed and sent to a number of countries that are also signatories.

The Convention, by the way, was formed post WWII after 8 million-odd Jews were killed for being Jews. There was no "process" during the war to resettle them, and as a result, they were murdered en masse. If they had managed to escape, should we really have sent them back?

Today, there are approximately 10 million refugees around the world living in transitory refugee camps (these are UN estimates of people who have made a claim). There is little "process" to resettle them. The "queue," for the majority of people, does not exist. Many are born and will die of old age in refugee camps.

This is why a small proportion of them (those who can get the money) flee to countries like Australia, which has signed the refugee convention. It is perfectly legal to seek assylum in a country that is signatory to the convention.

A family will often decide on the most suitable member to resettle, and pool their money to help them escape. Often, these are young, unmarried males. There are few places to go legally if you live in a developing country. In Sri Lanka, I was told that the only place Sri Lankans can get visas is Singapore and Bahrain (but I don't know if they meant tourist or work visas). Therefore, your options are limited to your borders. Afghanis will go by road to Pakistan and Iran, and I think they can get tourist visas to Indonesia.

I'm unsure why Sri Lankan Tamils would come all the way to Australia when they can just go to Tamil Naidu in India. This remains a mystery to me, and seems to bring the economic dimensions of seeking assylum into the fore.

There are millions of Afghans in Pakistan and Iran, many of them "unofficial". There are many more Afghani assylum seekers than Tamils, who make up a small proportion of Sri Lanka's 20-odd million people. The UNHCR still holds concerns for Tamils in Sri Lanka.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #404 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 7:23pm
 
Quote:
Religion is not the only reason for persecution. Nationality or even language can fuel suspicion and hatred too.


Even something as simple as dressing to a different standard gets some people all wound up.

Quote:
Our style of freedom has always been used as a foothold for muslims to deny freedoms in every which way, shape and form.


Can you give any examples? I am only aware of them doing it by the sword. Maybe you think they might trick us into giving away our own freedom by banning the burqa?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #405 - Jul 15th, 2010 at 8:53pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 15th, 2010 at 2:46pm:
mellie wrote on Jul 14th, 2010 at 2:10pm:
I firmly believe Julia Gillard knew East Timor would reject her offer re- detaining refugees off-shore, just hoped they would have declined after the next election, not before.

She needs to get serious about our border security, A predominantly Christian/Catholic Timor–Leste  (East Timor) doesn't want to detain  illegal predominantly Muslim immigrants this and if they did agree to do so, would be wanting to be generously reimbursed for their trouble.

My solution.....

The minute they arrive, put them on planes and send them straight back to where they came from.



Nice try. As signatories to the 1951 Convention on Refugees, we can't send refugees back on by plane, boat, car, or on foot. We have agreed to process their claims for refugee status and grant assylum where necessary.

This is why the Howard government sent them offshore: so that they wouldn't have their claims processed here.

It was a political solution, of course, not a "pragmatic" one. 90% of claimants on Nauru were found to be genuine refugees and ended up in Australia anyway.

This is why the Labor government wants the "processing centre" to be in a country that is a signatory to the Convention on Refugees - they can be processed and sent to a number of countries that are also signatories.

The Convention, by the way, was formed post WWII after 8 million-odd Jews were killed for being Jews. There was no "process" during the war to resettle them, and as a result, they were murdered en masse. If they had managed to escape, should we really have sent them back?

Today, there are approximately 10 million refugees around the world living in transitory refugee camps (these are UN estimates of people who have made a claim). There is little "process" to resettle them. The "queue," for the majority of people, does not exist. Many are born and will die of old age in refugee camps.

This is why a small proportion of them (those who can get the money) flee to countries like Australia, which has signed the refugee convention. It is perfectly legal to seek assylum in a country that is signatory to the convention.

A family will often decide on the most suitable member to resettle, and pool their money to help them escape. Often, these are young, unmarried males. There are few places to go legally if you live in a developing country. In Sri Lanka, I was told that the only place Sri Lankans can get visas is Singapore and Bahrain (but I don't know if they meant tourist or work visas). Therefore, your options are limited to your borders. Afghanis will go by road to Pakistan and Iran, and I think they can get tourist visas to Indonesia.

I'm unsure why Sri Lankan Tamils would come all the way to Australia when they can just go to Tamil Naidu in India. This remains a mystery to me, and seems to bring the economic dimensions of seeking assylum into the fore.

There are millions of Afghans in Pakistan and Iran, many of them "unofficial". There are many more Afghani assylum seekers than Tamils, who make up a small proportion of Sri Lanka's 20-odd million people. The UNHCR still holds concerns for Tamils in Sri Lanka.



To all of which Chris Evans, the Labor Minister of Immigrations says:

IMMIGRATION Minister Chris Evans has conceded Labor's asylum-seeker policy has failed and that community anger is "killing the government."

Unfortunately for the compleceniks, in a functional parliamentary democracy, what matters is what the people think.



"I'm unsure why Sri Lankan Tamils would come all the way to Australia when they can just go to Tamil Naidu in India. This remains a mystery to me, and seems to bring the economic dimensions of seeking assylum into the fore.
"


Being a complete kook has seldom been put better, Donkey. You do have your claim to fame. Have another whatever it is that grows your ears.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #406 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 11:30am
 
Not sure what you mean, old boy. Your posts are becoming increasingly inscrutable. Compleceniks?

Complecing (sic) what or whom?

Chris Evans is no limp-wristed softy. All Labor are trying to do is stick to the terms of the Convention, and even Labor, the party of the light on the hill, are dusting off the dog whistle.

You're right. In a democracy, you have to answer to the will of the people. If we held a vote, we'd get the death penalty and the stocks back. If you held a vote in Pakistan, you'd probably get ritual stoning for adulterers legally sanctioned.

The problem in democracy is when the people are systematically misinformed. This now occurs through the mainstream media, a media which must use hyperbole and hype to get ratings. Kyle and Jackie O eat your hearts out. It's your favourite parrot, dear, who is responsible for much of the misinformation, and not just him.

Policy, statistics, facts and figures are often boring. Hysteria is much more fun. I enjoy a bit of hysteria myself, and I know you do, old boy. In a truly functional democracy, however, people must be informed, and the fourth estate has a crucial role to play.

The adversarial, poll-driven, personality politics our system has evolved into is a parody of democracy. Let's not pretend it's anything else.

If we don't understand what we're talking about, we should refrain from arguing. Talkback radio serves a valuable democratic function: to give people the airtime to voice their ignorance - mediated by someone who's sole purpose is to keep people listening to sell the sponsors' products.

Democracy.

You don't get a real debate about immigration/assylum in the mainstream media. Saturday's Herald came close last week with actual numbers of arrivals. My question about Tamils and India has an answer, I'm just not sure what it is. In a functioning democracy, wouldn't you think we'd get answers to questions like this?

However, the answers are not always simple. If they can't be summed up in sound bites, we often don't get them.

As an intelligent, sensitive and thinking person, old boy, I'm sure you'll agree.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #407 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 12:02pm
 
Many words (too many words), little sense, Donkey. If what you say about misinformation were true, then every political office holder in Australia has been elected by a mob of ignoramuses and as a rule, every decision made by the Australian people at all level of public, political life is just mob reaction to mass media brainwashing.

You are a great and valued kook, up there with the dizziest of them. Have another sugar cube, you have earned it. Love the ears.


BTW, this is the bird I listen to in the morning: http://www.abc.net.au/classic/breakfast/

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #408 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:15pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 12:02pm:
Many words (too many words), little sense, Donkey. If what you say about misinformation were true, then every political office holder in Australia has been elected by a mob of ignoramuses and as a rule, every decision made by the Australian people at all level of public, political life is just mob reaction to mass media brainwashing.


You've got it in one.

We are informed about very little in terms of policy making, and its effectiveness. It's the same with NGOs, although they at least have to provide an annual report once a year - a glossy record of their "achievements," usually.

It's not brainwashing, it's more complicated than that. Australians are not educated about government at school, or in the media. To be a fully-engaged citizen, you need to know how government works, and very few do. Instead, we consume soundbites, and this leads the political process of running a nation like Australia.

We are actively discouraged from engaging in politics beyond the futile left/right knee-jerk. To discuss an issue like assylum seeks in terms of "toughness" versus "fairness" is incredibly superficial, but this is what it comes down to - the sound of the whistle.

Too many words, I guess.

Like an oyster, you'd prefer to respond to the tides. This is why you automatically dismiss writers you've heard are "left", "post-modern" or uncategorizable to your particular way of thinking. It's a way of shutting down curiousity for knowledge or independant thinking - because you instinctively know all the answers already.

And it's not just a problem for you, old boy, it's a problem for us all.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #409 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:57pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:15pm:
Soren wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 12:02pm:
Many words (too many words), little sense, Donkey. If what you say about misinformation were true, then every political office holder in Australia has been elected by a mob of ignoramuses and as a rule, every decision made by the Australian people at all level of public, political life is just mob reaction to mass media brainwashing.


You've got it in one.

We are informed about very little in terms of policy making, and its effectiveness. It's the same with NGOs, although they at least have to provide an annual report once a year - a glossy record of their "achievements," usually.

It's not brainwashing, it's more complicated than that. Australians are not educated about government at school, or in the media. To be a fully-engaged citizen, you need to know how government works, and very few do. Instead, we consume soundbites, and this leads the political process of running a nation like Australia.

We are actively discouraged from engaging in politics beyond the futile left/right knee-jerk. To discuss an issue like assylum seeks in terms of "toughness" versus "fairness" is incredibly superficial, but this is what it comes down to - the sound of the whistle.

Too many words, I guess.

Like an oyster, you'd prefer to respond to the tides. This is why you automatically dismiss writers you've heard are "left", "post-modern" or uncategorizable to your particular way of thinking. It's a way of shutting down curiousity for knowledge or independant thinking - because you instinctively know all the answers already.

And it's not just a problem for you, old boy, it's a problem for us all.


Yeah, I know, we have the worst system except for all the others.
Terrible.





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #410 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:57pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:15pm:
Like an oyster, you'd prefer to respond to the tides. This is why you automatically dismiss writers you've heard are "left", "post-modern" or uncategorizable to your particular way of thinking. It's a way of shutting down curiousity for knowledge or independant thinking - because you instinctively know all the answers already.

And it's not just a problem for you, old boy, it's a problem for us all.


That is so sad, but true.  The population is encouraged to think in black and white terms. I guess it makes it easier for the government to control them, or the lobbyists underwriting the government at least. Political campaigns have all the subtlety of rabble rousing in the school yard.

"Who wants free chocolate icecream?" All the hands go up.
(Yaaaay!)
"Well don't vote for him because he's going to ban icecream." (boooo!)

Well, it's usually about more emotive subjects which are not really high risk, but just emotive type issues. Of course we have to be subtle (or cunning) with the Muslims under the bed type issues, and we mustn't talk about nassty nuclear power at election time or anything else that will upset the 'plebs'.

"Our policy is to be firm against boat people."

(Translated - We don't want wogs coming in here, marrying lots of women and getting social security for all the kids they produce, especially darker coloured and Muslim wogs, because they are all terrorist sympathisers, and it's ok to be concerned about that.............and saying that doesn't make me a racist.)

Yeah. Just take it to the lowest possible denominator. Appeal to the beer gut instinct, appeal to xenophobia and greed. That will get the votes.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #411 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 3:08pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:57pm:
Yeah. Just take it to the lowest possible denominator. Appeal to the beer gut instinct, appeal to xenophobia and greed. That will get the votes.


That's right. That's what got Rudd into The Lodge.

Muso, I knew you had some fruity ideas but I didn't realise you were nutty as well.

Cheesy


...


Cheesy
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #412 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 3:26pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 3:08pm:
muso wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:57pm:
Yeah. Just take it to the lowest possible denominator. Appeal to the beer gut instinct, appeal to xenophobia and greed. That will get the votes.


That's right. That's what got Rudd into The Lodge.

Muso, I knew you had some fruity ideas but I didn't realise you were nutty as well.

Cheesy


I was being facetious, but every politician has to pander to the lowest common denominator, but remain deliberately obscure on key issues.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #413 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 3:26pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:57pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:15pm:
Like an oyster, you'd prefer to respond to the tides. This is why you automatically dismiss writers you've heard are "left", "post-modern" or uncategorizable to your particular way of thinking. It's a way of shutting down curiousity for knowledge or independant thinking - because you instinctively know all the answers already.

And it's not just a problem for you, old boy, it's a problem for us all.


That is so sad, but true.  The population is encouraged to think in black and white terms. I guess it makes it easier for the government to control them, or the lobbyists underwriting the government at least. Political campaigns have all the subtlety of rabble rousing in the school yard.

"Who wants free chocolate icecream?" All the hands go up.
(Yaaaay!)
"Well don't vote for him because he's going to ban icecream." (boooo!)

Well, it's usually about more emotive subjects which are not really high risk, but just emotive type issues. Of course we have to be subtle (or cunning) with the Muslims under the bed type issues, and we mustn't talk about nassty nuclear power at election time or anything else that will upset the 'plebs'.

"Our policy is to be firm against boat people."

(Translated - We don't want wogs coming in here, marrying lots of women and getting social security for all the kids they produce, especially darker coloured and Muslim wogs, because they are all terrorist sympathisers, and it's ok to be concerned about that.............and saying that doesn't make me a racist.)

Yeah. Just take it to the lowest possible denominator. Appeal to the beer gut instinct, appeal to xenophobia and greed. That will get the votes.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #414 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 3:57pm
 
I don't see how banning the burqa will achieve much in the long run in light of a politically correct era of comy leftist idealism and subservience, if anything, I think doing so will result in their being able to use our anti-discrimination laws against us to their own victimous advantage, so if anything our banning the burqa out-right will reinforce their extremist agenda, of which is to exploit a multicultural nation to it's full advantage.

Ideally, I'd like to see them making the effort to assimilate themselves voluntarily, baring in mind, not all Muslims wear a burqa, at home, or out in public.

Perhaps being more selective with respects to which Muslims we immigrate, when clearly, those arriving from hostile and deprived areas where our allied forces are currently engaged in military operation's is some what of a concern, eg Afghanistan, ...and those arriving from known problematic areas prone to extremist views/camps in Pakistan also?

Eg, Egyptian Muslims are quite different to those in some other volatile areas of the world, those which are often opposed to western values before they get off the plane/boat.

Who raised the concept of banning the burqa here in Australia to begin with, anybody?

These are topics our media shy from, though they are indeed worthwhile topics which need to be discussed.

The day any Australian feels their right to raise an issue like this discomforting, discriminatory, politically incorrect,  this or is condemned by others for having done so is the day those who oppose free speech and democracy have won.

Let the little people speak, it's their voices which count for much in terms of electing any given  government to represent them and it's a governments duty to uphold the democratic values of our western society, this and respond to it's peoples concerns accordingly.

Cool

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #415 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 4:09pm
 

mellie, have a google of copts and egyptian muslims..

,
Quote:
..............Eg, Egyptian Muslims are quite different to those in some other volatile areas of the world, those which are often opposed to western values before they get off the plane/boat...............


Quote:
...AINA) -- An Egyptian court in the southern city of Assuit acquitted this week four Muslims accused of killing 61-year-old Farouk Attallah on October 19, 2009. In broad daylight and in full view of witnesses, the killers fired 31 bullets to his head before beheading him, in the busy village market place of Attaleen, near Dairout, 313 kilometers south of Cairo. The dead body was then dragged in the street, accompanied by shouts of victory. Free Copts website published a video of the disfigured body (warning, violent graphic content: video).

The judge presiding over the court on February 22, said that he was not satisfied that the testimony of the witnesses established that the imprisoned men were the killers. After the acquittal of Mohamad, Ashraf, Osama and Ahmad Hassouna, there was jubilation in the court room, with shouts of 'Allah is Great' and congratulations from all Muslims, including members of the state security forces who were present.

Christians were enraged over the acquittal, since similar cases would result in life imprisonment or execution for a Copt if the victim was a Muslim.

The verdict came as another wake-up call to many Copts, according to Peter Sarwat, the plaintiff's attorney. "It sends a clear message that Coptic blood is extremely cheap." he told Mariam Ragy of Katiba Tibia Coptic site. "This acquittal will make permanent the present culture of impunity enjoyed by Muslim aggressors against Copts.".k...............


http://www.aina.org/news/20100303215642.htm
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #416 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 4:42pm
 
I am not referring to the Muslim extremist minority over in Egypt, rather am referring to their Muslim people on the whole, which is clearly more relaxed,liberated and educated  'westernised' than some other parts of the Muslim world.

Likewise with Christians, for you get extremist off-shoots among all faiths, but should we be plucking them from known  problematic parts of the world making a rod for our own back, increasing our chances of having to contend with the disruption their unwillingness to assimilate  causes here in Australia?

I think we need to be more selective, this and pay closer attention to refugees arriving in our country without documentation, those who have travelled by plane for part of their journey, of which would have required them to produce documentation to start their journey to begin with.

Funny, how when our authorities request these documents, they have mysteriously disappeared in so many cases.

Where do we draw the line?

The current come one come all unless your a self confessed terrorist policy just isn't working,  it's the same old Cold war...Churchill had the right idea, when he pegged Jews and Muslims in one.

Lets foster more socially responsible and sustainable immigration/refugee policies, as I think in the long run, this will be more effective than banning the burqa.

While we are all busy debating about whether or not the burqa should be banned, no less than 10 boats a month have arrived since last December.

many of which have been detained at the expense of the Australian tax payer , awaiting to be processed, only for some  to be deported for having known connections with terrorist organisations.

All this costs Australians dearly, which is why we Australians have began to ask ourselves if being so hospitable has been worth our while... when it's clear, we have become the worlds number one destination for queue-jumping illegals simply because it's too politically incorrect to discuss, this or turn them away.

It's far time we talked about this...and far time our government stopped avoiding the subject of irresponsible mass-immigration and the negative effects it's had on our country in recent years under a Labor government.

Smiley Harden the burqa up Australia... it's now or never.

Never trust a PM with a weak chin!i




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #417 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 4:58pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:57pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 1:15pm:
Soren wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 12:02pm:
Many words (too many words), little sense, Donkey. If what you say about misinformation were true, then every political office holder in Australia has been elected by a mob of ignoramuses and as a rule, every decision made by the Australian people at all level of public, political life is just mob reaction to mass media brainwashing.


You've got it in one.

We are informed about very little in terms of policy making, and its effectiveness. It's the same with NGOs, although they at least have to provide an annual report once a year - a glossy record of their "achievements," usually.

It's not brainwashing, it's more complicated than that. Australians are not educated about government at school, or in the media. To be a fully-engaged citizen, you need to know how government works, and very few do. Instead, we consume soundbites, and this leads the political process of running a nation like Australia.

We are actively discouraged from engaging in politics beyond the futile left/right knee-jerk. To discuss an issue like assylum seeks in terms of "toughness" versus "fairness" is incredibly superficial, but this is what it comes down to - the sound of the whistle.

Too many words, I guess.

Like an oyster, you'd prefer to respond to the tides. This is why you automatically dismiss writers you've heard are "left", "post-modern" or uncategorizable to your particular way of thinking. It's a way of shutting down curiousity for knowledge or independant thinking - because you instinctively know all the answers already.

And it's not just a problem for you, old boy, it's a problem for us all.


Yeah, I know, we have the worst system except for all the others.
Terrible.


Terrible! It's liberal democracy versus the Islamic caliphate.

Doesn't matter. Gott mit uns, old dear.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #418 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 5:16pm
 
"Terrible! It's liberal democracy versus the Islamic caliphate.

Doesn't matter. Gott mit uns, old dear."

Exactly.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #419 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 5:38pm
 
The current whimsical come one come all unless your a self confessed terrorist with an explosive devise strapped to your back policy just isn't working,  it's the same old Cold war...Churchill had the right idea, when he pegged Jews and Muslims in one.

It's not that I have anything against either of these religious groups, it's just I oppose anything that has the potential to interfere with our civil liberties, our democratic way of life.

It's them or us, the battle for freedom is far from over, we have achieved victories, though not victory as such.

We must continue standing for what we believe in, our right to free speech and debate, without fear of being condemned racists, or dissidents.

This isn't about race creed or kind, it's about self-preservation.

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning. Sir Winston Churchill







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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #420 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 6:36pm
 
A terrorist group is highly unlikely to use the route taken by asylum seekers to get into western countries. Why would a terrorist sit for months or years in a refugee camp and then risk life and limb on a leaky boat and after that sit in a detention camp for months or years before maybe landing in Australia on a refugee visa.
They are more likely to use all the money and resources terrorist groups have and simply fly in, in less than a day on forged documents and a false passport.
Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #421 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 6:58pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 4:58pm:
Yeah, I know, we have the worst system except for all the others.
Terrible.


Terrible! It's liberal democracy versus the Islamic caliphate.

Doesn't matter. Gott mit uns, old dear. [/quote]

ANd you ask what complacenik means? Donkey, it is you: "Hey, it's all the same except when sh!t happens, and then it's our fault". Easy.
And then "Gott mit uns"? "Old dear"? Is that all you have to show for your HECS debt?

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #422 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 7:33pm
 
adelcrow wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 6:36pm:
A terrorist group is highly unlikely to use the route taken by asylum seekers to get into western countries. Why would a terrorist sit for months or years in a refugee camp and then risk life and limb on a leaky boat and after that sit in a detention camp for months or years before maybe landing in Australia on a refugee visa.
They are more likely to use all the money and resources terrorist groups have and simply fly in, in less than a day on forged documents and a false passport.
Smiley


You are wrong, as no less than 70 have already been deported this year, of which have been linked to terrorist organisations,(Some have even escaped from our detention centres whilst awaiting deportation due to their crimes back home)...but we don't want to discuss these victims, do we.

Many of which are believed to have conveniently lost their documentation upon arrival,  how uncanny, despite them having it with them to board planes for best part of their journey to Australia.

If you think all refugees are poor needy wretches, think again.
How do you suppose they managed to scrape up the funds to queue-jump  to begin with, this and decided to take the illegal rout when they could have chosen a more affordable 'legal' avenue?

I'm not suggesting all are criminals, though many who come here via illegal avenues, do so because they fear their applications might be rejected, and rather than risk this, they choose an alternative rout, this and conveniently lose their papers along the way.

No, we aren't supposed to talk about these refugees in our media, these are the refugees we aren't supposed to know, much less talk about...the poor needy wretches.


Wink
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #423 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 8:26pm
 
Neither of our leading political parties (and or main stream media) want to discus this issue, due to our being this close to a federal election, so it's being put on the back-burner.

Should Labor get back in again, then I suspect it will be a non-discussion for another 3 years until finally Australians will wake up and smell the camel pood.

But by then, the damage will have been done, and we will be too controlled, (media wise) to do or say much about it.

The last Rudd election was our nations first ever social media election, and if they can control this, (which has been the case for the last 3 years)...then hey, they have us by the balls again this time, and they know this.

Cool So....don't forget to roll a gold coin into our "Keep silent and support illegal immigration" tin on your way past the ballot box this election....did you know over 90% of illegal immigrants enter our country 1st class via plane?

And why, because they can, it's easy!

The ones who arrive by boat choose to do so because providing documentation at theirs or our airports might comprise their chances in terms of being granted refugee status.

There's the matter of photo identification to contend with you see.

Really, there is no need to cheat the system these days, they can arrive via plane, much more affordably, comfortably  than they ever could by boat, this and receive silver service upon arrival being taxied back to our state of the art tax-funded immigration resorts. Cool







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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #424 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 9:17pm
 
Very close but not quite right.
You come by plane - we know who you are and will assess you. If you are rejected, like the Iranian cleric recently, you are out.
You come by boat, with no ID documents - you went to another country first, so you have no claim here. Go back to the country you travelled to with ID documents and make your asylum claim there.

Just like with the burqa - we want to know who the bugger you are. That's gotta be fair enough in any language. If not fair enough - bugger orf.
Your colour, creed or the hole you take it up doesn't matter.

We are entitled to know who the bugger you are. If that grates, bugger orf.



(NB. I am providing this information in the pidgin English vernacular, published by the Department of Immigration and Citizenship. The information is also available in other community languages)





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #425 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 4:56pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 16th, 2010 at 9:17pm:
Just like with the burqa - we want to know who the bugger you are. That's gotta be fair enough in any language. If not fair enough - bugger orf.
Your colour, creed or the hole you take it up doesn't matter.

We are entitled to know who the bugger you are. If that grates, bugger orf.


You're recommending that the Department of Immigration check the identity of people who come to Australia.

Gee. They should give you a job in policy.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #426 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:00am
 
Look how insensitive this guy is! He says that if you can see his face, he should be able to see your face. The islamophobic, freedom-trampling, intolerant cheek of him!!!

Conservative MP Philip Hollobone refuse to meet with constituents wearing a veil

A Conservative MP has declared that he will not having meetings with constituents who refuse to remove their Islamic face veil.
By Laura Roberts
17 Jul 2010

MP Philip Hollobone says he will not hold meetings with constituents who refuse to remove their veil Photo: JOHN ROBERTSON Philip Hollobone, MP for Kettering, was accused by Muslim groups of "failing in his duty" as MP.
Mr Hollobone is trying to bring in a Private Member's Bill to ban women wearing the burka or niqab in public.
He argued that he would not be able to satisfy himself of the identity of a person without being able to do so. Mr Hollobone said that he would "invite" anyone who did not wish to remove their veil to communicate with him in a "different way", such as by letter, rather than face to face. He said that the burka or niqab was not a religious requirement and that the majority of Muslim women dressed in a way in which their face was visible.
Following France's recent decision to ban the burka in public Mr Hollobone said he hoped that other European nations would "sit up and take notice". However, Shaista Gohir, executive director of the Muslim Women's Network UK, said his comments would simply exacerbate intolerance.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7895995/Conservative-MP-Phil...


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #427 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:11am
 

Soren wrote on Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:00am:
Look how insensitive this guy is! He says that if you can see his face, he should be able to see your face. The islamophobic, freedom-trampling, intolerant cheek of him!!!

Conservative MP Philip Hollobone refuse to meet with constituents wearing a veil

A Conservative MP has declared that he will not having meetings with constituents who refuse to remove their Islamic face veil.
By Laura Roberts
17 Jul 2010

MP Philip Hollobone says he will not hold meetings with constituents who refuse to remove their veil Photo: JOHN ROBERTSON Philip Hollobone, MP for Kettering, was accused by Muslim groups of "failing in his duty" as MP.
Mr Hollobone is trying to bring in a Private Member's Bill to ban women wearing the burka or niqab in public.
He argued that he would not be able to satisfy himself of the identity of a person without being able to do so. Mr Hollobone said that he would "invite" anyone who did not wish to remove their veil to communicate with him in a "different way", such as by letter, rather than face to face. He said that the burka or niqab was not a religious requirement and that the majority of Muslim women dressed in a way in which their face was visible.
Following France's recent decision to ban the burka in public Mr Hollobone said he hoped that other European nations would "sit up and take notice". However, Shaista Gohir, executive director of the Muslim Women's Network UK, said his comments would simply exacerbate intolerance.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7895995/Conservative-MP-Phil...


Good on him, for being so foolish as to effectively-invite Muslim protestors to picket him at every opportunity...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #428 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:19am
 
... and thereby showing them up for the fanatical pinheads that they are.

A cunning plan, my lord.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #429 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 4:35am
 
If its in the Constitution. Its in the document

Commonwealth Of Australia Constitution Act
Chapter V. The States.

116. The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/chapter5.htm  Cheesy
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #430 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 4:37am
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:11am:
Soren wrote on Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:00am:
Look how insensitive this guy is! He says that if you can see his face, he should be able to see your face. The islamophobic, freedom-trampling, intolerant cheek of him!!!

Conservative MP Philip Hollobone refuse to meet with constituents wearing a veil

A Conservative MP has declared that he will not having meetings with constituents who refuse to remove their Islamic face veil.
By Laura Roberts
17 Jul 2010

MP Philip Hollobone says he will not hold meetings with constituents who refuse to remove their veil Photo: JOHN ROBERTSON Philip Hollobone, MP for Kettering, was accused by Muslim groups of "failing in his duty" as MP.
Mr Hollobone is trying to bring in a Private Member's Bill to ban women wearing the burka or niqab in public.
He argued that he would not be able to satisfy himself of the identity of a person without being able to do so. Mr Hollobone said that he would "invite" anyone who did not wish to remove their veil to communicate with him in a "different way", such as by letter, rather than face to face. He said that the burka or niqab was not a religious requirement and that the majority of Muslim women dressed in a way in which their face was visible.
Following France's recent decision to ban the burka in public Mr Hollobone said he hoped that other European nations would "sit up and take notice". However, Shaista Gohir, executive director of the Muslim Women's Network UK, said his comments would simply exacerbate intolerance.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7895995/Conservative-MP-Phil...


Good on him, for being so foolish as to effectively-invite Muslim protestors to picket him at every opportunity...


Under earth we were all created equal, we were all human. What he should of done was used a mediator/proxy and worked via remote to come to an agreement to meet the veiled party to discuss his political views held within his sanction. If he feels that the said citizen of the Commonwealth cannot be met on private grounds he must talk to this person on public grounds.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #431 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 12:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2010 at 7:23pm:
Quote:
Religion is not the only reason for persecution. Nationality or even language can fuel suspicion and hatred too.


Even something as simple as dressing to a different standard gets some people all wound up.




It's every freeborn man's right to say if something p!sses him orf.  The Spectator nails it :

That’s the thing that everybody seems to forget. I might have the right to wear pants on my head as much as I like. But I don’t have the right to not be told by people who see me that I look like an idiot. I don’t have the right not to be asked if I wouldn’t perhaps mind growing the hell up, and taking them off.
...
When did the world suddenly decide that the right to do something necessarily entailed the right not to be politely asked to stop doing it? It’s a dangerous nonsense. None of this is about ‘rights’ at all. It’s about manners. Security concerns aside, of course, women should have the right to wear the burka, anywhere they like. But that doesn’t mean it’s not an inherently repellent garment, the wearing of which, in Britain, is basically just rude. So stop it.





Just so.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #432 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 12:31pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 12:24pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2010 at 7:23pm:
Quote:
Religion is not the only reason for persecution. Nationality or even language can fuel suspicion and hatred too.


Even something as simple as dressing to a different standard gets some people all wound up.




It's every freeborn man's right to say if something p!sses him orf.  The Spectator nails it :

That’s the thing that everybody seems to forget. I might have the right to wear pants on my head as much as I like.


My dear, dear fellow, of course you do. But kindly take them off if you enter a house.

It's only manners.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #433 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 12:39pm
 
Unbelievable!! You actually understood something!

Yes, it was a simple idea, but still, give yourself a pat on the head. Well done.


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #434 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 1:20pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 12:39pm:
Unbelievable!! You actually understood something!

Yes, it was a simple idea, but still, give yourself a pat on the head. Well done.




No no, dear boy. The pleasure is all mine.

Such a smart fellow!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #435 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 2:13pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 12:24pm:
It's every freeborn man's right to say if something p!sses him orf.  The Spectator nails it :

That’s the thing that everybody seems to forget. I might have the right to wear pants on my head as much as I like. But I don’t have the right to not be told by people who see me that I look like an idiot. I don’t have the right not to be asked if I wouldn’t perhaps mind growing the hell up, and taking them off.
...
When did the world suddenly decide that the right to do something necessarily entailed the right not to be politely asked to stop doing it? It’s a dangerous nonsense. None of this is about ‘rights’ at all. It’s about manners. Security concerns aside, of course, women should have the right to wear the burka, anywhere they like. But that doesn’t mean it’s not an inherently repellent garment, the wearing of which, in Britain, is basically just rude. So stop it.




No argument there whatsoever. I like to have the right to wear my bright purple and yellow clan tartan kilt, but I recognise that people will tell me that it looks revolting and that it makes them feel physically sick. It stands to reason, and I'll probably stop wearing it because of the ridicule.

However if a lawmaker decides to ban me from wearing it - just  watch me. I reserve the right to peaceful protest against stupid laws that limit what I can wear. Not only that, but I'll get a group of friends together and we'll invade the mall in our dazzling attire and give conservative Danes dreadful headaches.  
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #436 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 6:11pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 2:13pm:
Soren wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 12:24pm:
It's every freeborn man's right to say if something p!sses him orf.  The Spectator nails it :

That’s the thing that everybody seems to forget. I might have the right to wear pants on my head as much as I like. But I don’t have the right to not be told by people who see me that I look like an idiot. I don’t have the right not to be asked if I wouldn’t perhaps mind growing the hell up, and taking them off.
...
When did the world suddenly decide that the right to do something necessarily entailed the right not to be politely asked to stop doing it? It’s a dangerous nonsense. None of this is about ‘rights’ at all. It’s about manners. Security concerns aside, of course, women should have the right to wear the burka, anywhere they like. But that doesn’t mean it’s not an inherently repellent garment, the wearing of which, in Britain, is basically just rude. So stop it.




No argument there whatsoever. I like to have the right to wear my bright purple and yellow clan tartan kilt


As long as you are in the clan, old boy.

Unless it's a girl's private school tunic, of course, then you're in the clear.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #437 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 9:38pm
 
There's no problem in wearing whatever you want to wear, but when it becomes a security issue, then it becomes a problem.

It's also very offensive not to show your face
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #438 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 9:50pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 6:11pm:
As long as you are in the clan, old boy.

Unless it's a girl's private school tunic, of course, then you're in the clear.


I'll pass and leave that last one with you Karnal Smiley - but I thought that something in a bright shade of fuchsia or coral-blush, resplendent with glittering sequins would be more your style.  Grin
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #439 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 10:09pm
 
Worth hearing it again.




If we were a more honest (less PC) society, there would be no need to debate whether to ban the  burqa/niqab or not - it would have been ridiculed out of existence a long time ago.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #440 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 10:26pm
 
Quote:
There's no problem in wearing whatever you want to wear, but when it becomes a security issue, then it becomes a problem.

It's also very offensive not to show your face


So I assume you have the same opposition to Santa Claus and Blinky Bill as well? Both of which cover as much or more as a Niqab (burka is not really a word used by many Muslims).
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #441 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 10:37pm
 
no, blinky bill is a pommy-aussie commie labor voter. What, are you into discrimination or something?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #442 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 11:03pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 10:26pm:
Quote:
There's no problem in wearing whatever you want to wear, but when it becomes a security issue, then it becomes a problem.

It's also very offensive not to show your face


So I assume you have the same opposition to Santa Claus


Oh! So they are covering up the beards?! I didn't realise! Now I get it, thanks.

...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #443 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 11:08pm
 
when will islamic people realise who they are dealing with? for God's sake, wake up and read the history books!  don't equate christianity with the west these days. christian culture recognises the reasoning for things like the burqa, traditionally, even up to very recent decades in Australia, and still in Europe, similar religious traditions are observed in catholic religious orders...it is a tradition...carried through from the original jewish tradition - but it has been largely let go, just as you will let it go. Islam is the most recent of "book" religions, and it is yet to modernise. The burqa and like practices are biblical, that is all. Islam in some of its orders, still recognises this. Many christians don't have a problem with it.  
Just as Islam has different sects, so does Christianity. Do you understand that? Do you know who you are dealing with? Do you know where the American "Western" dominant culture comes from? It is from a particular sector of christianity sometimes, and sometimes other "sects". These are tough people, guys.

You talk about the people of the book. Think about it, and think about who you have most in common with. Then be very careful who you want to fight with, because it might not be who you think it is.

every culture that has taken on this bloc militarily and politically and religiously has lost for the last many hundreds if not thousands of years. That is why they are now dominant.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #444 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 11:19pm
 
They wish you to submit to Allan and Mohammed. That's all.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #445 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 11:26pm
 
Yes, *you* wouldn't; and it is not I who is doing the struggling to understand, my friend, it is you. Judaism is very ancient, it is not the most ancient religion, of course, but it is the forerunner of Christianity and Islam. These religions are all related, quite closely. The burqa is a concept that has been common to all of them. It has been a sign of modesty believe it or not...and I am coming from a Christian background here...it is just the "look" of it in Islam that other people are uncomfortable with. I have met Islamic women who wear the burqa or the head dress, and they seem like very decent women to me, a lot more respectable than some of looks that abound in secular culture these days. It is not a matter of feministicism or not, it is a religious practice. That religion will evolve and feminism will see that the burqa is let go, especially in places like Australia. If Islam has a problem with countries that do that, and take them on, then they will find out who they deal with.  Islam needs to read their history books before getting on high horses.

If they want people to submit to Allah, who are they asking? people of the "book" will respond that they have already done that, and long before Islam did. That is the point - Islam makes demands of the wrong people, to its cost.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #446 - Jul 27th, 2010 at 11:53pm
 
I am strill struggling to make sense of your last couple of posts. You seem to be able to present contradictory ideas effortlessly, even within the same sentence. Would you mind giving us the edited version, the dot points, as it were?




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #447 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 12:02am
 
now you are not struggling, my friend, you are understanding or at least listening.
I have not read all of this tedious thread, I have observed it's progress, but finally I have weighed in. You confuse simple religious practice with politics. Judaism is the father, Christianity is the brother, Islam is your second son. Do you understand? All of these religions demanded females to wear covering clothing at some stage. So?
Islam makes the mistake of not understanding that the "west" is not "christianity". If they wish to take on "christianity" that is one thing - and they have not won that fight historically either, and they will not - if they think they are taking on christianity by taking on "the west" that is entirely another. America is driven by a particularly virulent kind of christianity, a bit like Cromwellian England, with other strong influences in there, historically, as well - freemasonry and judaism. In other words, Islam would take on the entire history of the non-Islamic western world, not "Christianity". Good luck with that. Everyone who has tried that so far has crashed and burned.
Clear enough? Let them sort out the burqa themselves. It is their problem, and they will have to deal with their own women about it eventually, and it is coming.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #448 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 12:08am
 
shampain socialist wrote on Jul 27th, 2010 at 11:26pm:
Yes, *you* wouldn't; and it is not I who is doing the struggling to understand, my friend, it is you. Judaism is very ancient, it is not the most ancient religion, of course, but it is the forerunner of Christianity and Islam. These religions are all related, quite closely. The burqa is a concept that has been common to all of them. It has been a sign of modesty believe it or not...and I am coming from a Christian background here...it is just the "look" of it in Islam that other people are uncomfortable with. I have met Islamic women who wear the burqa or the head dress, and they seem like very decent women to me, a lot more respectable than some of looks that abound in secular culture these days. It is not a matter of feministicism or not, it is a religious practice. That religion will evolve and feminism will see that the burqa is let go, especially in places like Australia. If Islam has a problem with countries that do that, and take them on, then they will find out who they deal with.  Islam needs to read their history books before getting on high horses.



Islam is a parody of both judaism and christianity and the burqa is not a religious requirement, nor was the veil in the west at any time.

The point of wearing th burqa, among other things, is precisely to prevent 'evolution'. Have you noticed that the most insufferable Muslim zealots among us in the west, the ones calling for the worldwide caliphate, are the local born muslims and the converts.  Never mind the evolution, the Islamic political project is to facilitate moving backwards (note to Julia). Secular modernity is the enemy. And the Jews, of course. If the Muslims laid down their arms, there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel laid down its arms, there would be a bloodbath. That's the difference.

Quote:
If they want people to submit to Allah, who are they asking? people of the "book" will respond that they have already done that, and long before Islam did. That is the point - Islam makes demands of the wrong people, to its cost.
Do not take on the might of the secular west, from here on in history, even if these people are in an inferior military position, they will always have the power to destroy their enemies, even if they themselves are destroyed. Know who you are taking on.


This sems to be addreessed to the sons of Allah. Correct?





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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #449 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 12:54am
 
the 'veil' was never a requirement in the west?! Oh, really! Take a look, my friend... They still exist in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_habit

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/imgs/Nun%27s%2520habit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/2009/06/banning-burqas-frances-secular.html&usg=__4e2j1eWYmeixIlFln7wtaZgu5N0=&h=488&w=303&sz=24&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=id-Vf5SZ4jxrBM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnun%2527s%2Bhabit%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D585%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1


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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #450 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 1:08am
 
..
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Re: Ban the Bearka
Reply #451 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 10:36am
 
http://www.couriermail.com.au/entertainment/tv/children-watch-as-humphrey-b-bear...

We don't need those foul-mouthed people who cover up their faces telling us what to do.  Cheesy
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #452 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 10:55am
 
shampain socialist wrote on Jul 28th, 2010 at 12:54am:
the 'veil' was never a requirement in the west?! Oh, really! Take a look, my friend... I was educated by people who dressed like this, in not so long ago decades, and in Australia. They still exist in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_habit

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/imgs/Nun%27s%2520habit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/2009/06/banning-burqas-frances-secular.html&usg=__4e2j1eWYmeixIlFln7wtaZgu5N0=&h=488&w=303&sz=24&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=id-Vf5SZ4jxrBM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnun%2527s%2Bhabit%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D585%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1





DOn't tell me that even after 30 pages of this thread you still haven't grapsed the pertinent point, Pat: we are talking about covering the face and in the case of the burqa, even the eyes.




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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #453 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 11:20am
 
So I assume you have the same opposition to Santa Claus and Blinky Bill as well? Both of which cover as much or more as a Niqab (burka is not really a word used by many Muslims).
................................................................................
.................

That has to be one of the most stupid comments of all time.

The burqa is an insult to woman to make them subservient. It's an insult to those to whom they speak.

Children whose mothers wear the "mobile tarpaulin' have a huge problem with bonding.

I read a story recently on how cruel this is to children.
There was a very distressed child and two woman in their tents were teasing the child as to which one his mother was. They thought it hilarious whilst the child was crying uncontrollably. This was witness in a supermarket. The husband of one of the woman was also making very light of it.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #454 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 9:03pm
 
Quote:
The burqa is an insult to woman to make them subservient. It's an insult to those to whom they speak.


It's clothing, just like any other, get over it. It's no more insulting to Westerners than covering breasts is to Papuans.

Quote:
Children whose mothers wear the "mobile tarpaulin' have a huge problem with bonding.


Here's your clear error. Burqa/Niqab/Hijab is only worn outside the home, not inside it. There's no problem with bonding at all. Do you think Papuan women bond better with their kids because they don't wear blouses or pants?

My guess is you have absolutely zero real experience with a niqabi (woman who covers her face outside the home). And therefore have zero authority on which to speak on the matter.

Quote:
There was a very distressed child and two woman in their tents were teasing the child as to which one his mother was.


I read a story a few days ago where a Western woman made her 6yo. kid suck her breasts... Therefore I think it should be compulsory all women cover themselves because of this incident.

Your attempt to claim the nasty actions of two individuals as some all-important reason why a certain article of clothing must be banned is just ludicrous. Honestly stick with the security argument, at least it has some semblance of rationality to it.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #455 - Jul 28th, 2010 at 9:08pm
 
Quote:
The burqa is an insult to woman to make them subservient.


No. That is the role of muslim men. Ask Abu why women should be beaten with a soggy miswak.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #456 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:06am
 
You like to project your deficiencies onto others don't you fd? I think you know full well that domestic violence is rife in our society, fuelled by alcohol and the general sense of disrespect Western societies promote about women.

You have no such information about Muslim society other than whispers and propaganda.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #457 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:14am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:06am:
You like to project your deficiencies onto others don't you fd? I think you know full well that domestic violence is rife in our society, fuelled by alcohol and the general sense of disrespect Western societies promote about women.

You have no such information about Muslim society other than whispers and propaganda.

You're still a heap of hypocritical garbage, there Abu.

Maybe you should read what Dr Sakena Yacoobi has to say about the perverted stench of the Taliban's Islam in Afghanistan... A group that you support.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #458 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:20am
 
Quote:
You're still a heap of hypocritical garbage, there Abu.


Still got little up your sleeve other than ad hominems there I see?

Quote:
Maybe you should read what Dr Sakena Yacoobi has to say about the perverted stench of the Taliban's Islam in Afghanistan... A group that you support.


Its becoming clearer day by day that the U.S propaganda machine has done nothing but lie about the Talibaan, so we'll leave that one aside until more is revealed.

Maybe you should read what Yvonne Ridley has written about them? A Western journalist who was actually captured by them and has first hand knowledge of them. Certainly a more authentic source than a 3rd. world propagandist who'd say anything to get a little Western funding...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #459 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:26am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:20am:
Certainly a more authentic source than a 3rd. world propagandist who'd say anything to get a little Western funding...

A 3rd. world propagandist? You mean an ethnic Afghani woman who forsook an easy life in the west and returned to the land of her birth to advance the cause of women's physical, mental and psychological health at great risk to herself... Somewhat more worthy of honour and respect than a disaffected misfit such as yourself.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #460 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 2:46pm
 
I think that Muslim women having to wear the burqa has very little to do with their religion, and everything to do with some mens need to maintain control over their women.
They see them as property and nothing more which is disappointing for a number of reasons.
The bible too had nothing in it about English Catholics having to burn witches at the stake either, or the Spanish inquisition having to torture heretics.
If they really expect western people to readily accept these female Muslim slaves wearing the burqa in public terrifying our children and bank tellers, then they need to put alot more effort into the marketing aspect of this particular product.
They have not marketed this product at all which is just silly.
I mean, having them only come in one size, and three basic fresh 11th century medaeval colours of black, blacker, and blackest doesn't work for us 21st century westeners.
But I tell you using football team colours would.
Now I would be more than happy if they came in for example,
St George colours of white with a large crusaders V on the front with sponsors logos on them.  Absolutely outstanding.
And forget Target or Katies.
These could be sold through the individual football clubs, and assist them to get through the current global financial crisis, sold at around $99.99 each, which is cheaper then the last dress I bought my wife.
Hell, I would be so happy I would even buy my wife one if it came in St George Illawarra Dragons colours.
The Canterbury Bulldogs would make an absolute killing out of the sales if they did this.
No, the Muslim community need to do more to sell this idea I'm afraid.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #461 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 4:09pm
 
Quote:
I think that Muslim women having to wear the burqa has very little to do with their religion...


Have you ever even spoken to a wearer? Or is this all just gleaned off Fred Niles' whinge sessions?

The only cases I've ever come across of force regarding the niqab is family members trying to PREVENT someone wearing niqab. The claim anyone is forced TO wear it is at present pure speculation. Never come across a single case of it sorry. And even if a single case of it did exist, it'd still be irrelevant, just as a few Christian families forcing their daughters to wear skirts below the knees would not in any way justify banning knee length (or longer) skirts.

Quote:
I mean, having them only come in one size, and three basic fresh 11th century medaeval colours of black, blacker, and blackest doesn't work for us 21st century westeners.


Want to police people's choice in colours now too? And Muslims are supposed to be the totalitarian ones??? LOL
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #462 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 4:17pm
 
I would definitely be for allowing businesses and private property owners to ban the burqa on their premises. But we can't ban the burqa in public. That's ridiculously unfair and anti-freedom. People can wear whatever the hell they want. But when you enter private property, you have to respect the rules on the owner. A restaurant, hotel, store or bank can ban the burqa on their premises if they're concerned about security.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #463 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 4:47pm
 
BobH wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 4:17pm:
I would definitely be for allowing businesses and private property owners to ban the burqa on their premises. But we can't ban the burqa in public. That's ridiculously unfair and anti-freedom. People can wear whatever the hell they want. But when you enter private property, you have to respect the rules on the owner. A restaurant, hotel, store or bank can ban the burqa on their premises if they're concerned about security.




Exactly right bob.
Motorcycle riders don't kick up a fuss, it's just something they have to live with that they are required to remove their helmets as a condition of entry to shops, servos, banks etc.   
Now a shopkeeper has good reason to request this of people...it doesn't matter to them WHY the face is covered, only that it IS covered.  I wouldn't want to start down the road of legislating what we can and can't wear...but if there's good reason why the face shouldn't be covered in certain places, then we need to make sure people won't use anti-discrimination laws to get special treatment.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #464 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:36pm
 
We should be banning Muslims, not just their dark ages practices.  Islam is obviously incompatible with Western Society, the half smart attitude of Muslims isn`t needed here, we need cohesion, not conflict.
When we welcome migrants to our shores, we need people who will work WITH us, not people who seek to undermine the fabric of our society by causing internal division and conflict.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #465 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:22pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:06am:
You like to project your deficiencies onto others don't you fd? I think you know full well that domestic violence is rife in our society, fuelled by alcohol and the general sense of disrespect Western societies promote about women.

You have no such information about Muslim society other than whispers and propaganda.


So tell us about the soggy miswak Abu. What is it's purpose?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #466 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:29pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:06am:
You like to project your deficiencies onto others don't you fd? I think you know full well that domestic violence is rife in our society, fuelled by alcohol and the general sense of disrespect Western societies promote about women.

You have no such information about Muslim society other than whispers and propaganda.



OK, it's booze and yobs that fuel domestic violence in this society. What fuels it in Muslim-majority societies?

Or are you saying that there is no domestic violece by Muslims? Or are you saying that you guys call it reasonable chastisement with the cattle prod FD mention above?

If a Westerner does it - it's domestic violence. If a Muslim does it - it's following Allah's orders.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #467 - Jul 30th, 2010 at 9:00am
 
I'm sure it exists in all societies, however I think it's much much lower in Muslim societies, due to the lack of alcohol, which seems to be a primary factor in domestic violence.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #468 - Jul 30th, 2010 at 9:15am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 30th, 2010 at 9:00am:
I'm sure it exists in all societies, however I think it's much much lower in Muslim societies, due to the lack of alcohol, which seems to be a primary factor in domestic violence.

Muslim poverty and ignorance... Two gifts that the medieval morality of the Islamic perversion offers in abundance to those it has enslaved... That and a cause for the embittered misfit with which to deflect blame for his neuroses and flawed psychology onto society.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #469 - Jul 30th, 2010 at 1:46pm
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 13th, 2010 at 8:56pm:
One thing's absolutely certain: we should ban the burqa and/or risk facing the thinly-veiled wrath,
of the rampaging and glass-ceilling-smashing Muslim dominatrix - en masse!




A teacher says no to burqa in a West Bengal Muslim university, isn’t allowed to teach

For the past three months, 24-year-old Sirin Middya has not been able to hold her classes at West Bengal’s first Muslim university. While the guidelines at Aliah University in Kolkata don’t stipulate the same, the students’ union has demanded that Middya can teach but only in burqa.
Middya was appointed a guest lecturer at the university in March this year and got the union “diktat” in the second week of April. “I was told that I would not be allowed to attend college if I did not agree to come in a burqa. The University Grants Commission does not prescribe any such dress code and even the university does not have a dress code. But the most unfortunate part is that students are forcing us to wear burqa,” Middya told The Indian Express.

According to her, she has no issues with wearing a burqa — but if she dons one, it would be of her own free will.

Siamat Ali, secretary of West Bengal Madrasah Students’ Union, says he doesn’t understand Middya’s problem.
“There are eight women teachers at the university. It was decided through consulation that the women will observe purdah, and most teachers agreed. Only this lady has a problem,” Ali said, adding that they were ready to welcome Middya back as long as she adhered to the “decent” dress code.


The university has chosen to play safe, putting the issue on the backburner and hoping it dies down.
“This is a stray incident... we tried to nip the problem in the bud. There is no dress code in our university. Since there was a problem, we asked the teacher to report to the Salt Lake campus,” said Vice-Chancellor Syed Shamshul Alam.
The university was set up in 2008 by upgrading the famous Calcutta Madrasah which was started in 1781 by Warren Hastings, Governor General of Bengal. One of the oldest centres of higher learning and culture in the country, the institution has had many eminent scholars in its ranks. Aliah University was expected to harmonise tradition and modernity, and while its Islamic cources are run in the Calcutta Madrasah building, the other academic activities are conducted on different campuses at Salt Lake.
Middya joined Aliah University after an M.A. in Bengali from Jadavpur University. Having refused to kow-tow to the union, she has been unable to go to Aliah’s Calcutta Madrasah campus, and reports to the university’s library at Salt Lake. “Without taking any classes, I am given the full prescribed salary by the university,” said Middya.

“Most of the teachers do not like the diktat of the students to wear burqa. But they have no option but to accept it. This is Talibanisation of educational premises and there is no one to our rescue,” she said.

On June 4, nearly two months after she was virtually barred from the campus, Middya wrote to West Bengal’s Minister for Minority Development Abdus Sattar. She said she was yet to get a response.
Prior to this episode, Aliah University had faced another row when the students’ union held protests demanding that the word “madrasah” be added to its name.
With the university itself silent on the Middya issue, other teachers’ unions such as the All Bengal University Teachers Association (ABUTA) have decided to launch a movement.

“The university and the government should have protected this teacher and other teachers so that their fundamental rights were not infringed upon. Whereas in other parts of the world, even in Muslim countries, wearing a burqa is not mandatory, here the Left Front government has failed to protect the rights of the teacher,” said Tarun Naskar, general secretary of ABUTA.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-teacher-says-no-to-burqa-in-a-west-bengal-mu...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #470 - Jul 30th, 2010 at 11:31pm
 
Quote:
When we welcome migrants to our shores..


What an ignoramus you are!

Many of us Muslims have not been welcomed to these shores, we've been here our whole lives. Some of us as second generation migrants, others such as myself as 6th or 7th generation Aussies.

You'd better wake up and see the reality around you, your fellow Aussies are converting to Islam en masse, and if you told me you'd welcomed me to 'your' shores, I'd set you right back in your grotty little place where you belong quicker than you could say jihad jack.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #471 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 12:04am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 4:09pm:
Quote:
I think that Muslim women having to wear the burqa has very little to do with their religion...


Have you ever even spoken to a wearer? Or is this all just gleaned off Fred Niles' whinge sessions?

Who's Fred Niles?

The only cases I've ever come across of force regarding the niqab is family members trying to PREVENT someone wearing niqab. The claim anyone is forced TO wear it is at present pure speculation. Never come across a single case of it sorry. And even if a single case of it did exist, it'd still be irrelevant, just as a few Christian families forcing their daughters to wear skirts below the knees would not in any way justify banning knee length (or longer) skirts.

And if they were all walking around with boxes over their heads, that would be choice too?

Quote:
I mean, having them only come in one size, and three basic fresh 11th century medaeval colours of black, blacker, and blackest doesn't work for us 21st century westeners.


Want to police people's choice in colours now too? And Muslims are supposed to be the totalitarian ones??? LOL


One colour is a choice now?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #472 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 12:14am
 
Quote:
Who's Fred Niles?


If you don't know, then you need to become more informed.

Quote:
And if they were all walking around with boxes over their heads, that would be choice too?


If they wanted to do it, then yes. As I said, I've only ever come across cases of females being prevented from trying to wear niqab, never a single case of being forced to wear it. Again I ask, do you base any of these assertions of yours on actual first hand experience of niqab wearers? Or is it just based on mindless regurgitation of propaganda?

In fact, most of the niqab wearers I know of in Australia are Aussie ladies, who've converted to Islam. I hardly think anyone in their family is "forcing" them to wear it. You really need to re-evaluate this stuff you're saying, because it just doesn't mesh with the reality out there amongst the niqab-wearing sector of Australian society.

Quote:
One colour is a choice now?


Firstly I've seen niqab in other colours anyway,s but even if it were only black, that's their choice. The women who run the shops where niqabs are sold choose that colour, most likely based on the requests of their customers. It is market driven (In Australia at least), not driven by the decree of some "mullah" in a cave in Afghanistan, as you seem to think.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #473 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 12:25am
 
what's an "aussie" lady?
Aussies are converting to Islam en masse! LOL.
Even if they were, give it time, they'll convert right back again.

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #474 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 12:35am
 
socialist - abus a deciever.
he bans anyone who disagrees with him and proves what a murdering paedophile mohammad was .

basically, he is a good muslim.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #475 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 12:43am
 
he doesn't seem to like answering hard questions either.
I always get the feeling that when someone is using "aussie" in the context which he is, there is a connotation of racism implicit in that sort of descriptor.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #476 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 12:54am
 
sham, they are anglo-aussies who've embraced Islam.

I don't think it's that hard to work it out... although going by the standard of intellect here, I guess maybe it's not that simple.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #477 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 1:12am
 
you didn't mention "anglo" before, so I guess you're clarifying that you meant a classification by race then. Yes, that's what I thought. What about other "aussies"?

Of course there are people who will swap their beliefs in any multi culture where they have freedom of choice. It isn't a new phenomenon, it has been going for hundreds of years, especially in democratic countries.

Many people, especially younger people experiment with other cultures, religions and costumes and the different attention they might get. A lot of people become buddhists, hindu, rastafarians, etc, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean they will stay that way for the rest of their lives. In my observation, people who convert are moreso unhappy with some aspect of their previous background, especially a background that may have been what they regard as too strict, and they are trying something else. For a while.
A good lesson there for Islam I would have thought.

If you think that people in Australia who "convert" to Islam, or whatever, is a significant win for that particular sect or cult or whatever, you do not understand what is going in Australia especially since the 1960s.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #478 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 1:17am
 
socialist - well picked up. abu does not answer many questions.

ask any muslim about aisha, or how many wives mohammad had.
they avoid it like the plague
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #479 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 1:21am
 
not only that, he seems to retreat very quickly when asked questions, and has this not unusual phenomenon in Australia from some quarters of giving the impression that the "intellect" of a forum is somehow beneath them or not up to standard. Then they retreat. The irony is that he has so many posts wracked up, he must feel at home here with the "intellect".
He's pretty typical, I'd say.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #480 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 1:24am
 

true, questioning islam is an offense !!!!!!!!!!!

hhhahahahahaha,
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #481 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 1:29am
 
it's not in Australia. Is it?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #482 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 1:51am
 


nah, we give everyone poo .

Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #483 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 2:09am
 
and so, abu, do you like living in Australia, then?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #484 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 2:27am
 

i can see you'll get banned from his "islam" forum !

daring to force him into an answer indeed !!!
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #485 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 7:15pm
 
Quote:
I'm sure it exists in all societies, however I think it's much much lower in Muslim societies, due to the lack of alcohol, which seems to be a primary factor in domestic violence.


Abu, you are confusing correlation with causation. There are all sorts of situations that encourage or allow the mistreatment of women. The west has dealt with most of these. Alcoholism is just one of the few that remain. You are right to make the link in western societies, but wrong to equate the absence of alcohol (or the banning of it) with the absence of domestic violence. All of those other causes that the west has dealt with and are now labelled medievil, Islam is clinging to. Like the soggy miswak. Which is why you cannot bring yourself to explain to people here what its purpose is. Can you?

Quote:
The University Grants Commission does not prescribe any such dress code and even the university does not have a dress code. But the most unfortunate part is that students are forcing us to wear burqa,” Middya told The Indian Express.


Tip of the iceberg. At least she hasn't had acid thrown in her face. Yet.

Quote:
not only that, he seems to retreat very quickly when asked questions


Like what the purpose of the soggy miswak is.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #486 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 12:25pm
 
I went into Hungry Jacks the other day and, as I was ordering, two Muslim women walked in.





I saw they had the most colourful garments from head-to-toe and I immediately thought to myself........







"The burqas are better at Hungry Jacks".

Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #487 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 2:31pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 31st, 2010 at 12:14am:
Quote:
Who's Fred Niles?


If you don't know, then you need to become more informed.

Quote:
And if they were all walking around with boxes over their heads, that would be choice too?


If they wanted to do it, then yes. As I said, I've only ever come across cases of females being prevented from trying to wear niqab, never a single case of being forced to wear it. Again I ask, do you base any of these assertions of yours on actual first hand experience of niqab wearers? Or is it just based on mindless regurgitation of propaganda?

In fact, most of the niqab wearers I know of in Australia are Aussie ladies, who've converted to Islam. I hardly think anyone in their family is "forcing" them to wear it. You really need to re-evaluate this stuff you're saying, because it just doesn't mesh with the reality out there amongst the niqab-wearing sector of Australian society.

Quote:
One colour is a choice now?


Firstly I've seen niqab in other colours anyway,s but even if it were only black, that's their choice. The women who run the shops where niqabs are sold choose that colour, most likely based on the requests of their customers. It is market driven (In Australia at least), not driven by the decree of some "mullah" in a cave in Afghanistan, as you seem to think.



Even the formulation of this whole issue - banning the burqa - is back to front, as so many issues around muslims and modernity,  muslims and the west.

The burqa is the issue only incidentally. Even Islam is only incidental. The heart of the matter is not a ban but its very opposite, a requirement. The requirement, an expectation to show your face, your identity, in public.



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #488 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 2:42pm
 
John S wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 12:25pm:
I went into Hungry Jacks the other day and, as I was ordering, two Muslim women walked in.


I saw they had the most colourful garments from head-to-toe and I immediately thought to myself........


"The burqas are better at Hungry Jacks".

Grin Grin Grin Grin


Good one.  Grin

Now that I think of it, Burqa's could come in handy for some purposes.

Julia Gillard springs to mind.
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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:10pm by muso »  

...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #489 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 4:45pm
 
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 2:42pm:
Julia Gillard springs to mind.



The ALP branch deputy-secretary says...
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #490 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 5:06pm
 
Yeah - it's hilarious. Obviously a spoof.  I already posted that on another thread Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #491 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 5:19pm
 
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 5:06pm:
Yeah - it's hilarious. Obviously a spoof.  I already posted that on another thread Smiley


Me too...   Smiley
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #492 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 9:10pm
 

Apparently, the Lib and Nat 'leaders' are in disagreement on this...

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/truss-and-abbott-at-odds-on-bur...

Quote:
Truss and Abbott at odds on burqa ban

KARLIS SALNA

August 4, 2010 - 6:04PM

Nationals leader Warren Truss says women should be allowed to wear the burqa, disagreeing with coalition colleagues including Opposition Leader Tony Abbott.

Mr Abbott on Wednesday appeared to back calls for a ban on the burqa, labelling the veil worn by Muslim women a "particularly confronting" piece of clothing.

The comments come ahead of an expected ruling by a Perth judge about whether a Muslim woman can wear a full burqa while giving evidence before a jury in a fraud case.

WA District Court Judge Shauna Deane is due to hear submissions on Thursday from lawyers for the prosecution and defence regarding the witness who wishes to wear the burqa.

The woman is a strict Muslim who does not want to show her face to men.

Mr Abbott on Wednesday joined the debate, saying the burqa should not be worn in Australia.

"I find the burqa a particularly confronting form of attire, and I would very much wish that fewer Australians would choose it," Mr Abbott told reporters when asked about the Perth case.

But Mr Truss, speaking at the National Press Club in Canberra, disagreed with his coalition leader, saying people should be able to wear whatever they like.

"Generally speaking, as a matter of principle, I believe people should be able to wear what they choose, so long as that does not in any way disadvantage the rights and privileges of other Australians," he said.

Earlier this month, Liberal senator Cory Bernardi called for Australia to follow the lead of France and ban the burqa, linking it to the "expansion of fundamentalist Islam".

"This is a system where women are considered as second-class citizens and homosexuals can be hanged," Senator Bernardi said.

"We need to stop the expansion of fundamentalist Islam in Australia lest we lose the foundation, the essence, the very culture of our great nation."

France's lower house voted overwhelmingly to ban the wearing of face-covering veils in public.

Similar laws are pending in Belgium, Spain and some Italian municipalities.

© 2010 AAP



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #493 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 9:18pm
 

Hmmnnn....

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 2:14pm:
Quote:
TONY Abbott says he would like to see fewer women in Australia wearing burqas.

Mr Abbott was responding to questions about a case in Perth where a Muslim woman wants to wear a burqa in a court witness box.

Mr Abbott, who is campaigning in Queensland in the marginal seat of Dickson, on Brisbane's northside, said he would not interfere in the court decision on whether the woman should be banned from wearing the veil in court.

But he said he wished fewer people wore burqas in general.

"I don't want to interfere in the operations of our legal system but I have said it before and let me say it again, I find the Burqa a particularly confronting form of attire," Mr Abbott said.

"I would very much wish that fewer Australians would choose it."



http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2010/07/02/1225887/203919-burqa.jpg

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/burqas-are-confronting-and-i-wish-fe...

wadda winnah

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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #494 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 9:23pm
 
equit - you have highlighted a very good point of the libs there.

In the libs, it's ok to disagree.
it's expected that not everyone will have the same idea, they are expected to differ.
And they are invited to state their differences openly.

about the burquas, I hate them and think they should be banned. Abbott is a bit soft so far, but he does not like them.
truss is a softcock.
what do you think ?
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #495 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 9:27pm
 
John S wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 12:25pm:


"The burqas are better at Hungry Jacks".

Grin Grin Grin Grin



I went to Papa Dino's:



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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #496 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 12:39am
 
Yeah ban it I say.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #497 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 12:54am
 
What about that Muslim woman who wants to wear her Burqa in court?
As if I could wear a balaclava in court & get away with it.
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Re: Ban the Burqa
Reply #498 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 12:58am
 
Yeah what a joke.

Reading this stuff in our society today
makes me shake my head at so called intelligent
people running around wearing this stuff.
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