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Why is Walter so bitter? (Read 24610 times)
pjb05
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #15 - May 11th, 2010 at 8:06pm
 
1676] Quote:
It looks like you coined the phrase FD - why are you asking me?


I am just asking whether you can explain an apparent contradiction between his bio and what you said about him.

I can't see any condradiction.

Quote:
His research has been carried out under grants and contracts from the National Science Foundation, the Office of Naval Research, the National Geographic Society, the Engelhard Foundation, the Marine Research Foundation and his own personal funding.


What did they pay him to do? Did he publish his results anywhere?

How would I know? And I'm am not going to chase it up so you can then drop the subject and go off on another tangent.
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freediver
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #16 - May 11th, 2010 at 9:13pm
 
It just seems oddly vague to me, for a bio. It could make him anything from the manager of a large research institution with a huge budget and resources, or a successful businessman, or a decky and backyard mechanic who likes to travel and likes to talk up his connections with the big players and big inventions. 

Don't worry if you can't answer. You don't need to respond to everything that is brought up.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #17 - May 15th, 2010 at 7:07pm
 
pjb05 wrote on May 15th, 2010 at 6:47pm:
Walter Starck has more experience than most of the authors as well as a being just as well qualified. Doesn't that make him a peer?


Perhaps you know more about him than you are letting on PJ. From his bio I see no evidence of real experience. Just vague claims of grandeur. Can you back this claim up?
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #18 - May 16th, 2010 at 9:50am
 
freediver wrote on May 15th, 2010 at 7:07pm:
pjb05 wrote on May 15th, 2010 at 6:47pm:
Walter Starck has more experience than most of the authors as well as a being just as well qualified. Doesn't that make him a peer?


Perhaps you know more about him than you are letting on PJ. From his bio I see no evidence of real experience. Just vague claims of grandeur. Can you back this claim up?



Must be your comprehension problem again. Your already raised a couple of points which show you not having comprehended the bio at all. Perhaps you should read it over again - I don't know what more I can do.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #19 - May 16th, 2010 at 12:44pm
 
Quote:
Perhaps you should read it over again - I don't know what more I can do.


I am looking for something a bit more substantial than claiming "I am one of the pioneers in the scientific investigation of coral reefs" without backing it up. There are very simple ways to demonstrate and verify genuine experience in scientific research, without simply asking people to take your word for it that you are an expert. Anyone who wanted to be taken seriously for their contribution to scientific research would provide this evidence. It is something that simply goes without saying for genuine researchers.

When you said he had more experience, were you simply taking his self promotion at face value, or do you actually know what experience he has?
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #20 - May 16th, 2010 at 1:45pm
 
freediver wrote on May 16th, 2010 at 12:44pm:
Quote:
Perhaps you should read it over again - I don't know what more I can do.


I am looking for something a bit more substantial than claiming "I am one of the pioneers in the scientific investigation of coral reefs" without backing it up. There are very simple ways to demonstrate and verify genuine experience in scientific research, without simply asking people to take your word for it that you are an expert. Anyone who wanted to be taken seriously for their contribution to scientific research would provide this evidence. It is something that simply goes without saying for genuine researchers.

When you said he had more experience, were you simply taking his self promotion at face value, or do you actually know what experience he has?


You really do have some sort of learning deficit FD. I have already posted this quote from his bio:

His research has been carried out under grants and contracts from the National Science Foundation, the Office of Naval Research, the National Geographic Society, the Engelhard Foundation, the Marine Research Foundation and his own personal funding.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #21 - May 16th, 2010 at 4:00pm
 
That could just as easily mean he was a deckie PJ. It could mean anything. He could have made it up entirely. Anyone who has actually contributed to scientific research has a very simple way of demonstrating it, and no it is not by name dropping large organisations.

Tell me PJ, can you think of any way of finding out whether he is a fraud or the real deal, other than relying on the vague claims on his bio? You must have some awareness of how the scientific community works by now.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #22 - May 16th, 2010 at 4:48pm
 
]That could just as easily mean he was a deckie PJ. It could mean anything. He could have made it up entirely. Anyone who has actually contributed to scientific research has a very simple way of demonstrating it, and no it is not by name dropping large organisations.

How many deckies get research grants or have Phd's for that matter? By definition to be a Phd you must have published some research. It's understandable he doesn't give a list demonstrating each paper or project - it just wouldn't read well. His bio mentions other achievement, do you really want me to post them all here bit by bit?

Tell me PJ, can you think of any way of finding out whether he is a fraud or the real deal, other than relying on the vague claims on his bio? You must have some awareness of how the scientific community works by now. [/quote]


If he was a fraud he would have been found out by now. If you want to back up your snide inuendo why don't you email him and ask what he has published and where then check with all the journals?
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #23 - May 16th, 2010 at 5:17pm
 
Quote:
How many deckies get research grants


Did Walter say he got a research grant? His bio seems deliberately vague on whether he got it or whether someone else did and it just funded his salary for a while.

Quote:
or have Phd's for that matter?


Would that be the PhD in interpretive dance? I've met a taxi driver with a PhD. He thought he was an expert on everything. Come to think of it, his name was Walter. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

Quote:
By definition to be a Phd you must have published some research.


Not true, except that you have to 'publish' your PhD thesis, which can easily seat in the library of your univerity, never to be opened again. By the way, do you know which university (if any) awarded his PhD? It is obviously seen as a good thing if you published along the way, but it is hardly necessary.

Quote:
It's understandable he doesn't give a list demonstrating each paper or project - it just wouldn't read well.


All other scientists do. It doesn't have to read well. He wouldn't have to put in in the middle of that absurd piece of self promotion. Just a link would suffice, if he wanted people to take him seriously.

Quote:
His bio mentions other achievement, do you really want me to post them all here bit by bit?


No thanks. I am really only interested in his scientific work. Though if that turns out to be a fraud, it would be interesting to chase up the other claims also. But let's stick to the relevant bits for the moment.

Quote:
If he was a fraud he would have been found out by now.


Don't be so naive PJ. The internet is full of frauds like that. It is also full of people who want to believe so desperately that they will ignore the obvious gaps, and will tell you it is genuine even though they wouldn't know the difference. There are no 'fraud police' who go round taking their sites down. It is up to people like you to think for yourself before putting them on a pedestal. That's just how it works.

Quote:
If you want to back up your snide inuendo why don't you email him and ask what he has published and where then check with all the journals?


I have emailed him before and asked him to back up his claims. I got no response - not even a form letter. Any genuine scientist would make the effort to give people the info necessary to chase it up themselves rather than emailing the author. And besides, you are the one who claimed he had more experience than the genuine scientists he is criticising. Doesn't that put the obligation on you to back it up? Or is this one of those games where you rattle off claim after claim and it is up to everyone else to prove you wrong?
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #24 - May 16th, 2010 at 5:51pm
 
Looks like I will have to put it up bit by bit. The answers to your specific questions are in bold:

Walter Starck is one of the pioneers in the scientific investigation of coral reefs. He grew up in the Florida Keys and received a PhD in marine science from the University of Miami in 1964.  He has over 40 years worldwide experience in reef studies and his work has encompassed the discovery of much of the basic nature of reef biology. In this process over 100 species of fishes, which were new to science, were found as well as numerous, corals, shells, crustaceans and other new discoveries. 

In 1958, while still an undergraduate student Dr. Starck began what was to become a 10-year investigation of the fish fauna of Alligator reef in the Florida Keys.  As this was one of the first extensive uses of scuba diving for marine biological research it resulted in many new discoveries regarding reef biology.  Over 20,000 scientific specimens were collected. This work recorded what is still the greatest number of fishes known from any single locale in the New World.  The total was five hundred seventeen species, sixty of these had never before been found in U.S. waters and 19 were previously unknown to science.

In the early 1960’s he began the first extensive exploration of coral reefs at night. His photo story on this work in the January 1964 issue of National Geographic Magazine sparked the beginning of recreational night diving on reefs.  In conjunction with this work he was among the first to adapt and use SLR cameras and electronic flash underwater.  This in turn enabled the first underwater macro photography.

In 1968 he took delivery on El Torito, a purpose built 150 ton research vessel he designed and equipped specifically for coral reef research, exploration, and film work.  Its facilities included a lab, library, machine shop, diving chambers, an amphibious ATV, a 2 person enclosed Diver Transport Vehicle, and an amphibious ultralight aircraft of advanced design which he built himself . With this vessel he conducted extensive reef work for the next 20 years ranging from the Caribbean to the South Pacific.

Dr. Starck has participated in numerous other marine biological expeditions around the world including the Bahamas, the Caribbean, the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean and the Eastern and Western tropical Pacific. Since 1978 his home has been in the far north of Queensland in Australia. From here he carried out ten years of work on the Great Barrier Reef.

In addition to his extensive coral reef investigations Dr. Starck has also conducted long term studies on the biology of the lemon shark and on the worldwide distribution of the billfishes (i.e. the marlin, sailfish and spearfish family). His research has been carried out under grants and contracts from the National Science Foundation, the Office of Naval Research, the National Geographic Society, the Engelhard Foundation, the Marine Research Foundation and his own personal funding.





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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #25 - May 16th, 2010 at 6:06pm
 
[] Quote:
How many deckies get research grants


Did Walter say he got a research grant? His bio seems deliberately vague on whether he got it or whether someone else did and it just funded his salary for a while.

See above.

Quote:
or have PhD's for that matter?


Would that be the PhD in interpretive dance? I've met a taxi driver with a PhD.

See above.

Quote:
By definition to be a Phd you must have published some research.


Not true, except that you have to 'publish' your PhD thesis, which can easily seat in the library of your univerity, never to be opened again.

Yes but still has to be research, ie new work and has passed the review of your examiners.

By the way, do you know which university (if any) awarded his PhD? It is obviously seen as a good thing if you published along the way, but it is hardly necessary.

Miami. PS: I suggest you watch your mouth, your getting close to defamation.

Quote:
It's understandable he doesn't give a list demonstrating each paper or project - it just wouldn't read well.


All other scientists do. It doesn't have to read well. He wouldn't have to put in in the middle of that absurd piece of self promotion. Just a link would suffice, if he wanted people to take him seriously.

Really, how many scientists have their own websites. Is there now some sort of rule on how they write their bio on their websites?

Quote:
His bio mentions other achievement, do you really want me to post them all here bit by bit?


No thanks. I am really only interested in his scientific work. Though if that turns out to be a fraud, it would be interesting to chase up the other claims also. But let's stick to the relevant bits for the moment.

The relevant bit is the validity of his critique of the paper - but you prefer to be off with the fairies.

Quote:
If he was a fraud he would have been found out by now.


Don't be so naive PJ. The internet is full of frauds like that. It is also full of people who want to believe so desperately that they will ignore the obvious gaps, and will tell you it is genuine even though they wouldn't know the difference. There are no 'fraud police' who go round taking their sites down. It is up to people like you to think for yourself before putting them on a pedestal. That's just how it works.

I'd watch your mouth again. Also note Walter Starck has been on ABC TV documentaries, quoted as an authority in newsprint, done radio interviews and been a member of various thinktanks. Do you think these people don't check their sources? Who is being naive?

Quote:
If you want to back up your snide inuendo why don't you email him and ask what he has published and where then check with all the journals?


I have emailed him before and asked him to back up his claims. I got no response - not even a form letter.

He travels quite a bit. Sometimes I haven't got a reply from him for that reason. He's just one guy - not a government department.

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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #26 - May 16th, 2010 at 6:46pm
 
Quote:
From here he carried out ten years of work on the Great Barrier Reef.


As a deckie? Doing interpretive dance?

PJ, you don't seem to have realised what I am asking. I am not asking for you to regurgitate Walter's claims. I am asking you to verify your claim about his experience. Quoting him saying he has lots of experience hardly cuts it, especially in a field where having experience would be so easy to demonstrate, if it were true.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #27 - May 16th, 2010 at 7:06pm
 
[] Quote:
From here he carried out ten years of work on the Great Barrier Reef.


As a deckie? Doing interpretive dance?

Put it back into the paragraph FD, then the meaning will become apparent.

PJ, you don't seem to have realised what I am asking. I am not asking for you to regurgitate Walter's claims. I am asking you to verify your claim about his experience. Quoting him saying he has lots of experience hardly cuts it, especially in a field where having experience would be so easy to demonstrate, if it were true. [/quote]

You know very well I don't have more details at my fingertips.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #28 - May 16th, 2010 at 7:14pm
 
Quote:
Put it back into the paragraph FD, then the meaning will become apparent.


It is obvious what he wants people to think. It is not obvious he did any actual research himself.

Quote:
You know very well I don't have more details at my fingertips.


I have no idea what you know PJ. I certainly would not claim that a person has more experience than practicing scientists without first checking that there are some facts behind the self promotion. This is after all why they have peer review, because people can say anything at all if you don't bother to check.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #29 - May 16th, 2010 at 7:29pm
 
] Quote:
I certainly would not claim that a person has more experience than practicing scientists without first checking that there are some facts behind the self promotion. This is after all why they have peer review, because people can say anything at all if you don't bother to check.


I thought the first place to check would be his actual arguments. But not you - you would have me on a wild goose chase checking on all his activities of the last 50 years. As to your cop out of peer review - don't you recall peer review scientist Prof Ray Hilborn's paper Faith Based Fisheries where he points to a complete breakdown on proper peer review regarding marine parks? Or is he some sort of internet loony too, whith made up qualifications and experience.    

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