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Why is Walter so bitter? (Read 24668 times)
pjb05
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #120 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 9:13am
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jan 3rd, 2011 at 8:59am:
FD has a point Pj. It all sounds pretty impressive, but is he a Robert Ballard? Could be, but many 'Scientists' out there "fluff and puff" themselves up (market themselves) to get those ($$ching-ching) Grants.
Is he the type, like many 'dux' and top 5%'ers - who follow what is set out in front of them to a tee. These people, when faced with (3)three paths to take, always choose the 'right' one ...mainly because they have a map in front of them.
Unlike others, not having a map at hand (or Uni) and are faced with no paths at all to take ...these go out and 'make' the paths and draw on the maps the missing links.
None is better than the other. One thinks highly of what is already known and the other of what there is to know.

Anyway, gonna have to catch up with these Topics.  Embarrassed


I'm not saying you should accept his arguments on faith or authority, just judge them on their merit. FD can't or won't so just attacks him personally. He has used the same pathetic and scurrilous tactic on other scientists including Professors in fisheries science and one who recieved the order of Australia for his contribution to fisheries!
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #121 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 9:45am
 
Quote:
I'm not saying you should accept his arguments on faith or authority, just judge them on their merit.


You have made plenty of appeals to his authority before. Here is an example from this thread:

pjb05 wrote on Jul 24th, 2010 at 9:43am:
Rubbish, he has published many papers in peer reviewed journals. Plus your argument is self negating FD. You don't even have any scientific qualifications or expertise and this doesn't stop you.


Quote:
FD can't or won't so just attacks him personally.


Walter makes lengthy appeals to his own authority. You have made plenty here on this forum. Adressing those claims is a perfectly valid response. You'll notice that the vast majority of my 'attacks' are merely requests for you to verify those claims.

Let's do an experiment. This is a topic from Walter that we have gone over plenty of times before, with me trying to address it on it's technical merit. You have never come up with a rational defence of his position. Let's see if you can this time, rather than just insisting he is right because he is a scientist:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294011860
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #122 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 10:26am
 
date=1294011957] Quote:
I'm not saying you should accept his arguments on faith or authority, just judge them on their merit.


You have made plenty of appeals to his authority before. Here is an example from this thread:

pjb05 wrote on Jul 24th, 2010 at 9:43am:
Rubbish, he has published many papers in peer reviewed journals. Plus your argument is self negating FD. You don't even have any scientific qualifications or expertise and this doesn't stop you.


You are going around in circles, FD. You nagged me about his credentials so I responded.  

Quote:
FD can't or won't so just attacks him personally.


Walter makes lengthy appeals to his own authority. You have made plenty here on this forum. Adressing those claims is a perfectly valid response. You'll notice that the vast majority of my 'attacks' are merely requests for you to verify those claims.

Actually he said the authority argument is largely irrelevant. Like me he was responding to attacks on his credentials.

Let's do an experiment. This is a topic from Walter that we have gone over plenty of times before, with me trying to address it on it's technical merit. You have never come up with a rational defence of his position. Let's see if you can this time, rather than just insisting he is right because he is a scientist:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294011860

Just your selective amnesia at work again FD. Does this sound rational?

- Catch per unit area is commonly used to compare fishing pressure on coral reefs.

- Your knit-picking criticisms ignore the fact that the fishing pressure on the GBR was orders of magnitude below what is regarded as sustainable for coral reefs.

- There is other abundant independant evidence that the GBR was lightly fished. Eg no statistical difference between fish no's on fished reefs vs greens zones. Assessment of coral trout no's as healthy and robust by Dr Ayling.    

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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #123 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 11:21am
 
Quote:
You nagged me about his credentials so I responded.


I asked you to verify his credentials. You should try doing that instead of just 'responding'. That way we wouldn't have ten pages of your meaningless diversions.

Quote:
Actually he said the authority argument is largely irrelevant. Like me he was responding to attacks on his credentials.


The attacks came after he and his supporters made extensive appeals to his authority. He brought it up, so it is hypocritical of him to blame his detractors for it becoming an issue. Obviously he will try to brush it all aside once he is exposed as a fraud. If he wanted the debate to focus on the technical merits, he and his supporters should have focused on that instead. I suppose he found the only way to get people to pay attention to his silly claims is to give them an undeserved air of credibility.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #124 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 12:06pm
 
[date=1294017715] Quote:
You nagged me about his credentials so I responded.


I asked you to verify his credentials. You should try doing that instead of just 'responding'. That way we wouldn't have ten pages of your meaningless diversions.

What I offered is good enough for here. Do you expect me to chase up institutions for references, qualifications etc?

Quote:
Actually he said the authority argument is largely irrelevant. Like me he was responding to attacks on his credentials.


The attacks came after he and his supporters made extensive appeals to his authority. He brought it up, so it is hypocritical of him to blame his detractors for it becoming an issue. Obviously he will try to brush it all aside once he is exposed as a fraud. If he wanted the debate to focus on the technical merits, he and his supporters should have focused on that instead. I suppose he found the only way to get people to pay attention to his silly claims is to give them an undeserved air of credibility.

Rubbish. Don't just mindlessly turn back your own shortcomings on to me.

PS: what about your little experiment?

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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #125 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 3:34pm
 
Quote:
What I offered is good enough for here
.

No it isn't. All you offered was Walter repeating the same claims about himself that you were asked to verify. I'm not sure what kind of forum you would expect to accept at face value a scientist blowing his own trumpet like that. It is absurdly naive. Science is the one field where a person's credibility is dead simple to verify, if they have any.

Quote:
Do you expect me to chase up institutions for references, qualifications etc?


Not really. I don't think you'd have much luck anyway. You should start with asking Walter for a way to independently verify his claims. I expect you will find him to be very evasive on providing any more detail to what are some unusually vague claims.

Quote:
Rubbish. Don't just mindlessly turn back your own shortcomings on to me.


They are not my shortcomings. Both you and Walter made an appeal to his authority, now you are both backpedalling.

Quote:
PS: what about your little experiment?


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294011860

You failed. You cannot back up any of your appeals to Walter's authority. Nor can you give a rational argument in support of his technical points. An undergraduate would fail for making the conclusions drawn by Walter.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #126 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 3:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2011 at 3:34pm:
[quote]What I offered is good enough for here
.

No it isn't. All you offered was Walter repeating the same claims about himself that you were asked to verify. I'm not sure what kind of forum you would expect to accept at face value a scientist blowing his own trumpet like that. It is absurdly naive. Science is the one field where a person's credibility is dead simple to verify, if they have any.

Quote:
Do you expect me to chase up institutions for references, qualifications etc?


Not really. I don't think you'd have much luck anyway. You should start with asking Walter for a way to independently verify his claims. I expect you will find him to be very evasive on providing any more detail to what are some unusually vague claims.

How else do you verify the claims if what I have told you is not good enough? How come the same standard doesn't apply to you. What about all the other scientists I have quoted. Are you saying Prof Kearney didn't really get the Order of Australia or Prof Ray Hilborn doesn't really work for Washington University?

Quote:
Rubbish. Don't just mindlessly turn back your own shortcomings on to me.


They are not my shortcomings. Both you and Walter made an appeal to his authority, now you are both backpedalling.

Parrot.

Quote:
PS: what about your little experiment?


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294011860

You failed. You cannot back up any of your appeals to Walter's authority. Nor can you give a rational argument in support of his technical points. An undergraduate would fail for making the conclusions drawn by Walter.

Why is it not rational? Simply saying so is not good enough. PS you haven't beeen even undergraduate in the field - you don't even seem to have average intelligence.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #127 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 4:03pm
 
Quote:
How else do you verify the claims if what I have told you is not good enough?


I believe I suggested a good place to start.

Quote:
Parrot.


You are more than happy to mindlessly parrot Walter's claims.

[url]Why is it not rational?[/url]

Read the thread.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294011860
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #128 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 4:10pm
 
date=1294034608] Quote:
How else do you verify the claims if what I have told you is not good enough?


I believe I suggested a good place to start.

Quote:
Parrot.


You are more than happy to mindlessly parrot Walter's claims.

How come you can't contest them?

[url]Why is it not rational?[/url]

Read the thread.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294011860 [/quote]

I have read the thread - you haven't countered the points I have point down in this thread or in the earlier thread . 
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #129 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 4:11pm
 
Who's 'Walter'?? Is he Waldo's brother???
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #130 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 4:12pm
 
Walter Starck, see the other thread.

Quote:
How come you can't contest them?


I am doing just that.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294011860

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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #131 - Jan 3rd, 2011 at 11:53pm
 
Hmmm? Walter Starck - sounds like a 'theorist' scientist  Roll Eyes
What are his 'practical' proofs?
Quote:
Are you saying Prof Kearney didn't really get the Order of Australia or Prof Ray Hilborn doesn't really work for Washington University?

I don't doubt this, but I remember "SeaSports" in Jervis Bay reigned as "Australia's Number One Dive Shop" for years ...only because it paid for it to be so.

Anyway, I think I have run out of constructive input this far.
I stand by 'the official gossip' on the water out there.
I personally can't see something 'that big' being zoned off, but I do know from situations like this where 'word of mouth' preludes the official end product, that there will be large sections of the NSW Coastline Zoned off as No Take soon.
This is all in good, especially if these No Take Zones are placed in accordance with the Aquatic areas that really matter and yeild a substantial increase without need for further intervention.
Wonder if the Scientists are out there Scuba Diving to actually see?

All in all, I still shake my head at the amount of Recreational Fisherman Fishing in restricted areas ...even in full sight of us Diving.
This is why I think, unlike in New Zealand, Australia is yet to discover the real impact of Recreational Fishers supplying Restaurants, etc. In NZ, the practice is rife. Enforcement in NSW needs to be upped.


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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #132 - Jan 4th, 2011 at 6:25am
 
/120#131 date=1294062829]Hmmm? Walter Starck - sounds like a 'theorist' scientist  Roll Eyes
What are his 'practical' proofs?

A lot of scientific papers consists of reviews of other scientists original work and good things come out of such reviews - it's not really a valid criticism.

Quote:
Are you saying Prof Kearney didn't really get the Order of Australia or Prof Ray Hilborn doesn't really work for Washington University?

I don't doubt this, but I remember "SeaSports" in Jervis Bay reigned as "Australia's Number One Dive Shop" for years ...only because it paid for it to be so.

Anyway, I think I have run out of constructive input this far.
I stand by 'the official gossip' on the water out there.
I personally can't see something 'that big' being zoned off, but I do know from situations like this where 'word of mouth' preludes the official end product, that there will be large sections of the NSW Coastline Zoned off as No Take soon.
This is all in good, especially if these No Take Zones are placed in accordance with the Aquatic areas that really matter and yeild a substantial increase without need for further intervention.
Wonder if the Scientists are out there Scuba Diving to actually see?

Don't you know that waters up to 3nm are under state control and past 3nm are commonwealth? How likely is it such a plan would be considered under two different jurastictions, and considering the stae government is facing the voters soon and is likely to lose.

All in all, I still shake my head at the amount of Recreational Fisherman Fishing in restricted areas ...even in full sight of us Diving.
This is why I think, unlike in New Zealand, Australia is yet to discover the real impact of Recreational Fishers supplying Restaurants, etc. In NZ, the practice is rife. Enforcement in NSW needs to be upped.

Perhaps they would have without the distraction and expense of uneccessary marine parks. Indeed no money seems to be spared on marine parks boats, rangers, managers officers.


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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #133 - Jan 4th, 2011 at 10:47pm
 
Quote:
Don't you know that waters up to 3nm are under state control and past 3nm are commonwealth? How likely is it such a plan would be considered under two different jurastictions, and considering the stae government is facing the voters soon and is likely to lose.


Well considering the States do more on 'our' behalf than what the Federal/Commonwealth does because they are at the beg and call of the International Community - thats right, Federal is our 'Weakest Link' of Politics (especially unlike the USA  Wink). This is probably why our country is not quite right and I don't agree with "if it ain't broke...",  - because the Federal is working 'just right' for the Union Jack, let alone the President.
Is pretty obvious the 'flip' of it all is about to occur with Liberals to take all States for want of the ALP Federal. ("yawn")
...I think Australian Waters will be going through some changes soon anyway. We'll see what happens then? Huh

Quote:
A lot of scientific papers consists of reviews of other scientists original work and good things come out of such reviews - it's not really a valid criticism.

More 'paperwork'. Roll Eyes Australian Medical Industry has 2/3rds more paperwork than any other industry too.

Quote:
Perhaps they would have without the distraction and expense of uneccessary marine parks. Indeed no money seems to be spared on marine parks boats, rangers, managers officers.

I think you live in a world where a small 'pot plant' grows in a big city.
I live in a world where a small 'processing plant' works in a big wildlife zone.
...considering yours is the more 'northern hemisphere' philosphy Wink



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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #134 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 10:14am
 
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