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Why is Walter so bitter? (Read 24660 times)
pjb05
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #90 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 7:25pm
 
2200] Quote:
It's an observation, not an assumption.


Actually, what he observed was vastly different actual productivities. What he assumed was that this was down to absurdly misapplied management policies.

So aren't you saying the GBR is vastly less productive than other coral reefs, and this is on the basis of catch?

Quote:
Plus you ignore the fact that the scientists quoted do in fact compare fishing pressure by such a comparison.


Can you explain what you mean by this? Are you talking about Walter's article?

Duh the paper on the status of coral reef fisheries. By the way they found little difference between catch per unit effort between lightly fished and heavily fished reefs:

"Catch rates: Comparisons of Pacific Island coral reef fishery catch rates (catch per unit of effort) from survey areas where fishing pressure is definitely low, such as parts of Papua New Guinea, against catch rates where effort is significantly higher (such as Polynesia) show no discernible trends or correlations. This is apparent over all gear types (Dalzell et al, in press). If sustainability were exceeded in certain areas a significant reduction in catch per unit of effort with increased fishing effort should be illustrated, even by the meagre and heterogeneous data available on the subject."



Quote:
How can you be taken seriously if you think catches alone are a guide to abundance and shy away from explaining how?


You can't. I don't think anyone here said that. [/quote]

That contadicts your statement at the top of the page and your other quotes such as:

freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2010, 3:20pm:
You provided the stats PJ. You just don't know how to interpret them sensibly.

Are you deliberately trying to be evasive?
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #91 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:17pm
 
I did not ignore the fact that those other scientists made a comparison. I responded to it.

I don't see any contradiction in those two statements.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #92 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:17pm:
I did not ignore the fact that those other scientists made a comparison. I responded to it.

I don't see any contradiction in those two statements.


You have said that Walter's data of low catch per unit area indicates low productivity of the GBR haven't you?
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #93 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:46pm
 
freediver wrote on May 17th, 2010 at 7:59pm:
[quote]PJ, you made an appeal to his authority. I would be happy to withdraw my request that you back up this claim if you withdraw the claim. You started this goose chase. Only you can end it. Your goose is cooked, so don't be a goose, there is no golden egg, errr triangle.... Lips Sealed


You might find this interesting. Hopfully it will put an end to this moronic line of argument of yours:

Re:
From: Walter Starck
Clarification of more Moore misstatements
Date: 2 November 2009

Recently I had begun to consider if I had perhaps been too harsh on Minister Moore and what I had thought to be poor judgement might be more a matter of poor advice. I must now thank Mr. Moore for relieving any such doubt and generously providing another opportunity to address some of his misstatements.

Who is a “Scientist” and Does it Matter?
At the WAFIC AGM of 23 October the Minister made some remarks implying doubt regarding my qualifications as a “scientist” (with the quotation marks his addition). This deserves some comment as it seems the Minister may not understand that matters of science are determined by reason and evidence, not by consensus or pissing contests over credentials. In fact, some of the most important advances in science have come when relative unknowns challenged prevailing expert opinion with an explanation which proved to be a better one. In scientific disagreements, attacks on personal qualifications are an implicit admission of defeat. They are invariably only resorted to when there are no credible answers to a better argument.

Although largely irrelevant, as the Minister apparently thinks my qualifications important enough to concern himself with, I will fill in a bit on my background. If nothing else, this might provide some small reduction in the ignorance under which he is so obviously labouring in this respect.

I grew up on an island in the Florida Keys in a family of fishermen and began catching and selling fish off the family dock at age 5. At age 6 I got my first boat and a castnet. During high school I dived for crayfish to earn pocket money and would regularly catch between 50 to 200 pounds in a day’s diving. I attended university at the University of Miami and on completing my BSc scored in the top one percentile in the national Graduate Record Examination. I went on to graduate school at the Institute of Marine Science under a National Science Foundation Fellowship, one of the highest academic scholarships in the U.S. The IMS (now Rosensteil School of Marine and Atmospheric Sciences) was and is among the top marine science research institutions in the world. I completed my PhD studies in record time and was awarded the degree in early 1964.

Since then I have worked independently. This has included research grants and contracts from the National Science Foundation, Office of Naval Research, National Geographic Society and various private foundations. For twenty years I owned and operated my own 104 ton research vessel exploring widely from the Caribbean to the S.W. Pacific including 10 years on the Great Barrier Reef and in the Coral Sea. I have often worked in cooperation with various research organizations. In such capacity I have been a Research Associate of the Institute of Marine Science, The Bernice P. Bishop Museum in Honolulu, The Australian Museum in Sydney and the Western Australia Museum.

My research experience has included studies in over two dozen countries and resulted in numerous articles, books, scientific reports in peer reviewed journals and documentary films which have been(broadcast in over 50 countries. It has also resulted in the discovery of over 100 species of fishes that were new to science, numerous new invertebrates and over 100,000 specimens now in the reference collections of major museums. One, a rare slit shell, became a gift of state from the U.S. Government to the Emperor of Japan on the occasion of his visit to the U.S.

In addition to basic research, I have worked extensively in development of marine technology and hold two patents in this area. This design and development experience includes several boats, an amphibious aircraft, various underwater photographic and lighting equipment and the
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #94 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:48pm
 
successful closed circuit mixed gas electronically regulated breathing apparatus. The photographic equipment included original development of the optical dome port now used universally for wide angle underwater photography. The electronic rebreather was manufactured and sold to NASA, the U.S. Navy, the Israeli Army, some nameless government agencies and the Edwin Link Foundation among others. In Australia it was regularly used by one of the leading commercial dive companies involved in the early development of the Bass Strait oil field. Over the years I have frequently been a professional consultant on various matters relating to marine research and technology.

I could go on, but suffice it to say I probably have enough qualifications to be deemed a scientist without the need for quotation marks. Like most gratuitous comments on other people, Mr. Moore’s remarks in this regard reveals more of their source than of their subject.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #95 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:52pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:22pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:17pm:
I did not ignore the fact that those other scientists made a comparison. I responded to it.

I don't see any contradiction in those two statements.


You have said that Walter's data of low catch per unit area indicates low productivity of the GBR haven't you?


That sounds a lot closer to what I actually said.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #96 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 9:01pm
 
Quote: PJB05
How can you be taken seriously if you think catches alone are a guide to abundance and shy away from explaining how?

FD:
You can't. I don't think anyone here said that.



And have you forgotten this exchange from a few posts back? Your all over the place FD.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #97 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 9:07pm
 
Why all the stupid questions?
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #98 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 9:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 9:07pm:
Why all the stupid questions?


Your really clueless aren't you. You can't present a coherent line of reasoning. I'm trying to tease one out of you and all your statements are illogical or contradictionary.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #99 - Aug 1st, 2010 at 7:32am
 
You keep accusing me of saying things I don't actually say. I grow tired of pointing this out. That's all. I'm not trying to avoid anything except monotony.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #100 - Aug 1st, 2010 at 10:14am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2010 at 7:32am:
You keep accusing me of saying things I don't actually say. I grow tired of pointing this out. That's all. I'm not trying to avoid anything except monotony.


There simple and conflicting statements and in your words. Your happy to spin off topic after topic of red herrings yet you won't elaborate on these statements. Maybe you just realise what a hole you have dug for yourself.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #101 - Aug 1st, 2010 at 11:45am
 
Quote:
There simple and conflicting statements and in your words.


No. They are in your strawmen. If you think I have made two statements that contradict each other, quote both. Don't just quote one and your misrepresentation of the other. I am not going to explain the difference to you if you can't even be bothered doing this.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #102 - Aug 1st, 2010 at 12:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2010 at 11:45am:
Quote:
There simple and conflicting statements and in your words.


No. They are in your strawmen. If you think I have made two statements that contradict each other, quote both. Don't just quote one and your misrepresentation of the other. I am not going to explain the difference to you if you can't even be bothered doing this.


I have quoted both, you can't even get that right. Once again, plus a few others:

"Actually, what he observed was vastly different actual productivities. What he assumed was that this was down to absurdly misapplied management policies."

If the GBR were to be dramatically less productive then this will show up in other measures, but they don't. All evidence points to very light fishing pressure, eg underwater surveys, no significant difference between fish no in green zones and fished reefs etc.

"Walter's stats indicate that it is less productive."

Now Walter's stats were of catch per unit area. That sound like saying catches are a guide to productivity. Then you go on to say:

"You cant. I don't think anyone here said that".


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« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2010 at 12:19pm by pjb05 »  
 
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #103 - Aug 1st, 2010 at 12:40pm
 
Yes it is pretty subtle isn't it? There is nothing there that I feel the need to retract.
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Re: Why is Walter so bitter?
Reply #104 - Aug 1st, 2010 at 12:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2010 at 12:40pm:
Yes it is pretty subtle isn't it? There is nothing there that I feel the need to retract.


Not really. If you think it's subtle then why don't your clarify? Ie:

What were you refering to by "Walter's stats"?

What was he observing to see "vastly different actual productivities".

Why is there no other coroborating evidence pointing to lack of productivity?
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« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2010 at 2:54pm by pjb05 »  
 
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