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Reefgate! (Read 13680 times)
pjb05
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #75 - Apr 26th, 2010 at 10:43am
 
] Quote:
And money is still a motivation in marine research - probably more so. How many employers are their for marine biologists outside the government agencies? Not many and so there is a big incentive to tow their line.  


There is the universities,

They are government institutions

and the various aquaculture startups.

Not many of them will have the resources to employ a marine biologist full time.


If you want to make big money their is plenty if you can get into biochem and genetics.

They are different specialties. A marine biologists can't just pass himself off as a biochemist or geneticist.

Plus, research careers are built on reputation. No researcher is going to deliberately hitch their career to a sinking ship.

Yes and the gravy train at the moment is marine parks and their bureaucratic empire building.

And who would want to be a lowly paid government researcher like you used to be if you also had to mislead people? If they are so poorly paid, what makes you think money is their motivation?

I didn't work for the government. It was your point that private sector researchers lose their jobs or become fithly rich depending on the failure or success of a project. It's just not true. They usually work in a R&D department for a wage. Also my point is that money is a motivation if the choice is between a living wage and no job - and in the field of marine reseach there aren't many employers outside the government.

If you wanted to make a name for yourself as a marine researcher, you don't tow the line. You do what Walter is trying to do and prove everyone wrong. Except you make sure you are right before opening your mouth.

Well you don't want to even try to prove him wrong so you inference is rather underhanded. Yes the greatest scientists in history are the one which didn't tow the line - pity there is not much of that going on with government funded research.

Every researcher has some motivation to give themselves and their organisation a plug. This is more than adequately acknowledged by listing your institution on the front page. It is certainly nothing like the conflict of interest you get with drug companies. Most people who work for institutions have some level of resentment towards it.

It's very similar to the case of drug companies. your no job/ filthy rich scenario is ficticious. Listing the institution on the front page does not reveal the extent of your affiliation to the institution. This could range from a one off assignment by an independant consultant to being a full time employee. And it doesn't reveal other affiliations such as in this case, ie three of the authors being Pew fellows.  

The Pew thing on the other hand is interesting, which is why I started a new thread on it. It seems to be a recurring theme. Can you back it up?

I have put up an article before regarding Pew fellowships and the promotion of no take marine parks. Have you forgotten about this?
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« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2010 at 3:46pm by pjb05 »  
 
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #76 - Apr 26th, 2010 at 8:39pm
 
Quote:
They are government institutions


So this is now an all-of-government conspiracy?

Quote:
They are different specialties. A marine biologists can't just pass himself off as a biochemist or geneticist.


All the marine biologists I know did a lot of genetics work.

Quote:
Yes and the gravy train at the moment is marine parks and their bureaucratic empire building.


You keep swapping between crying poor and crying rich. You can;t have it both ways.

Quote:
It was your point that private sector researchers lose their jobs or become fithly rich depending on the failure or success of a project. It's just not true.


It is for drug companies - and it was you who tried to liken this situation to that of drug companies.

Quote:
Listing the institution on the front page does not reveal the extent of your affiliation to the institution.


So there is working for the institution, and there is 'working' for the institution?

Quote:
And it doesn't reveal other affiliations such as in this case, ie three of the authors being Pew fellows.


Are scientists now obligued to list every organisation they have recieved funding from?
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #77 - Apr 27th, 2010 at 1:04pm
 
[] Quote:
They are government institutions


So this is now an all-of-government conspiracy?

Strawman - you put Universities in the non government sector and I corrected you.

Quote:
They are different specialties. A marine biologists can't just pass himself off as a biochemist or geneticist.


All the marine biologists I know did a lot of genetics work.

Yes in first or second year. How many have worked as genticists?

Quote:
Yes and the gravy train at the moment is marine parks and their bureaucratic empire building.


You keep swapping between crying poor and crying rich. You can;t have it both ways.

Strawman. Gravy train is a figure of speech which you are trying to turn into an argument. And I haven't been swapping between poor and rich. You misquoted me a while back and this is now stuck in your head.

Quote:
It was your point that private sector researchers lose their jobs or become fithly rich depending on the failure or success of a project. It's just not true.


It is for drug companies - and it was you who tried to liken this situation to that of drug companies.

Just one example of private sector R&D that occured to me at the time. Anyway you are just nit-picking now. The evidence for conflict of interest, by it's very nature is circumstantial. The main point and clincher is the paper itself and how biased and misleading it is. You still don't want to talk about this.

Quote:
Listing the institution on the front page does not reveal the extent of your affiliation to the institution.


So there is working for the institution, and there is 'working' for the institution?

I explained the difference - what's your problem?

Quote:
And it doesn't reveal other affiliations such as in this case, ie three of the authors being Pew fellows.


Are scientists now obligued to list every organisation they have recieved funding from?

Depend on how serious you are about conflict of interes doesn't it? How is listing your recent and major funders unreasonable?
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #78 - Apr 27th, 2010 at 9:18pm
 
Quote:
Strawman - you put Universities in the non government sector and I corrected you.


My point still  stands. Is now an all-of-government conspiracy?

Quote:
Yes in first or second year. How many have worked as genticists?


I meant in their PhDs and jobs. Real genetics research. It's where the money is. They want to do for marine organisms in a short period what thousands of years of selective breeding has done to land based crops and animals.

Quote:
The evidence for conflict of interest, by it's very nature is circumstantial.


The conflict itself is very obvious, when it exists. It's the evidence of bias that is circumstantial.

Quote:
I explained the difference


I must have missed that. Can you clarify please?

Quote:
Depend on how serious you are about conflict of interes doesn't it? How is listing your recent and major funders unreasonable?


Many academics recieve funding from several bodies for unrelated areas of research. I see the disclosure mainly as a way of giving back to the organisation that funded the research - ie acknowledging their contribution. eg "This project was funded by ...". It would be silly to list the funding you recieved for other projects.
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #79 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 9:15am
 
] Quote:
Strawman - you put Universities in the non government sector and I corrected you.


My point still  stands. Is now an all-of-government conspiracy?

Still a strawman. I said there is a conflict of interest not a conspiracy - they are not the same thing.

Quote:
Yes in first or second year. How many have worked as genticists?


I meant in their PhDs and jobs. Real genetics research. It's where the money is. They want to do for marine organisms in a short period what thousands of years of selective breeding has done to land based crops and animals.

Then they sound like they are more geneticists than marine biologists.

Quote:
The evidence for conflict of interest, by it's very nature is circumstantial.


The conflict itself is very obvious, when it exists. It's the evidence of bias that is circumstantial.

I would have though bias was just as easy to prove and less circumstantial than conflict of interest. Anyway you have just spent pages arguing against conflict of interest in this case (mainly through numerous strawmen and red herrings). Tell me what would be your definition of conflict of interest, or better yet give me an example of very obvious conflict of interest and tell me how this differs from 'reefgate'?

Quote:
I explained the difference


I must have missed that. Can you clarify please?

As I said this could range from being a full time employee to just a one off asignment by an independant consultant.

Quote:
Depend on how serious you are about conflict of interes doesn't it? How is listing your recent and major funders unreasonable?


Many academics recieve funding from several bodies for unrelated areas of research. I see the disclosure mainly as a way of giving back to the organisation that funded the research - ie acknowledging their contribution. eg "This project was funded by ...". It would be silly to list the funding you recieved for other projects.

So the disclosure is not meant to reveal conflict of interest! And if the other research is related?
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #80 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 12:01pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Apr 28th, 2010 at 9:15am:
] Quote:
Strawman - you put Universities in the non government sector and I corrected you.


My point still  stands. Is now an all-of-government conspiracy?



As I said an all of government conspiracy is not what I would call it. An 'iron triangle' would be a better explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_triangle

Iron triangle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iron Triangle diagramIn United States politics, the iron triangle is a term used by political scientists to describe the policy-making relationship among the congressional committees, the bureaucracy (executive) (sometimes called "government agencies"), and interest groups.

For example, within the federal government the three sides often consist of: various congressional committees, which are responsible for funding government programs and operations and then providing oversight of them; the federal agencies (often Independent agencies), which are responsible for the regulation of those affected industries; and last, the industries themselves, as well as their trade associations and lobbying groups, which benefit, or seek benefit, from these operations and programs.

Probably the earliest concept of the "iron triangle" was on January 17, 1919 by Ralph Pulitzer. It was the post World War I era when Pulitzer wrote a statement referring to the Paris Peace Conference between the allied Governments. He stated, “Three forces are laboring for such a sinister peace: (1,) the bourbonism of politicians…; (2,) the materialism of industrial…; (3,) the militarism of professional soldiers…” and “If the Peace Conference is allowed to remain between governments instead of between peoples it is apt to degenerate…”

An often-used example of the term is with reference to the military-industrial complex, with Congress (and the House and Senate Committees on Armed Services), defense contractors, and the U.S. Department of Defense forming the iron triangle. The term iron triangle has been widely used by political scientists outside the United States and is today an accepted term in the field.


Central Assumption
Central to the concept of an iron triangle is the assumption that bureaucratic agencies, as political entities, seek to create and consolidate their own power base. In this view an agency's power is determined by its constituency, not by its consumers. (For these purposes, politically active members sharing a common interest or goal; consumers are the expected recipients of goods or services provided by a government bureaucracy and are often identified in an agency's written goals or mission statement.)

Much of what some see as bureaucratic dysfunction may be attributable to the alliances formed between the agency and its constituency. The official goals of an agency may appear to be thwarted or ignored altogether at the expense of the citizenry it is designed to serve.

[edit] Cultivation of a constituency
The need of a bureaucracy for a constituency sometimes leads to an agency's cultivation of a particular clientele. An agency may seek out those groups (within its policy jurisdiction) that will make the best allies and give it the most clout within the political arena.

Often, especially in a low-level bureaucracy, the consumers (the supposed beneficiaries of an agency's services) do not qualify as power brokers and thus make poor constituents. Large segments of the public have diffuse interests, seldom vote, may be rarely or poorly organized and difficult to mobilize, and are often lacking in resources or financial muscle. Less-educated and poorer citizens, for example, typically make the worst constituents from an agency's perspective.

Private or special interest groups, on the other hand, possess considerable power as they tend to be well-organized, have plenty of resources, are easily mobilized, and are extremely active in political affairs, through voting, campaign contributions, and lobbying, as well as proposing legislation themselves.

Thus it may be in an agency's best interest to switch its focus from its officially-designated consumers to a carefully-selected clientele of constituents that will aid the agency in its quest for greater political influence.

[edit] Dynamics of an iron triangle
In the United States, bureaucratic power is exercised in the Congress, and particularly in congressional committees and subcommittees. By aligning itself with selected constituencies, an agency may be able to affect policy outcomes directly in these committees and subcommittees. This is where an iron triangle may manifest itself. The picture above displays the concept.

At one corner of the triangle are interest groups (constituencies). These are the powerful interests groups that influence Congressional votes in their favor and can sufficiently influence the re-election of a member of Congress in return for supporting their programs. At another corner sit members of Congress who also seek to align  themselves with a constituency for political and electoral support. These congressional members support legislation that advances the interest group's agenda. Occupying the third corner of the triangle are bureaucrats, who are often pressured by the same powerful interest groups their agency is designated to regulate.
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #81 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 12:02pm
 
Consumers are often left out in the cold by this arrangement. An iron triangle can result in the passing of very narrow, pork-barrel policies that benefit a small segment of the population. The interests of the agency's constituency (the interest groups) are met, while the needs of consumers (which may be the general public) are passed over. That public administration may result in benefiting a small segment of the public in this way may be viewed as problematic for the popular concept of democracy if the general welfare of all citizens is sacrificed for very specific interests. This is especially so if the legislation passed neglects or reverses the original purpose for which the agency was established. Some maintain that such arrangements are consonant with (and are natural outgrowths of) the democratic process, since they frequently involve a majority block of voters implementing their will through their representatives in government.

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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #82 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 7:54pm
 
Quote:
I said there is a conflict of interest not a conspiracy - they are not the same thing.


But for there to be that conflict then all the public owned institutions would have to have an interest that is in conflict with the public interest. That is, a conspiracy.

Quote:
Then they sound like they are more geneticists than marine biologists.


I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Quote:
or better yet give me an example of very obvious conflict of interest and tell me how this differs from 'reefgate'?


My example from before will do. Actually it is an example you gave (the only one?) but it supports my argument better - a drug company doing safety tests on it's own drug to get it approved. The conflict of interest is obvious - the company is motivated by profit to take risks with public safety. The motivation is absent with the GBRMPA, because it is not a profit driven venture. It is not a corporation.
Quote:
So the disclosure is not meant to reveal conflict of interest!


It does that to, and it is necessary to do so, but it does far more.
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #83 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 10:10pm
 
[] Quote:
I said there is a conflict of interest not a conspiracy - they are not the same thing.


But for there to be that conflict then all the public owned institutions would have to have an interest that is in conflict with the public interest. That is, a conspiracy.

It's not the same as a conspiracy - it's rather more subtle and less pre-meditated.

Quote:
Then they sound like they are more geneticists than marine biologists.


I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Biologist tend to specialise in one field, due to complexity of the subject.

Quote:
or better yet give me an example of very obvious conflict of interest and tell me how this differs from 'reefgate'?


My example from before will do. Actually it is an example you gave (the only one?) but it supports my argument better - a drug company doing safety tests on it's own drug to get it approved. The conflict of interest is obvious - the company is motivated by profit to take risks with public safety. The motivation is absent with the GBRMPA, because it is not a profit driven venture. It is not a corporation.

It's not my only one, I mentioned the tobacco industry didn't I? I could mention others, eg the food industry. The fact that the GBRMPA is not profit driven does not make your case. Do you deny it is interested in perpetuating itself? Have a look at the article on iron triangles in the post above. Also it has possibly more oportunity to go against the public interest and serve itself. The drug industry is highly regulated (TGA) whereas the GBRMPA is almost a law unto itself.   
Quote:
So the disclosure is not meant to reveal conflict of interest!


It does that to, and it is necessary to do so, but it does far more. [/quote]

But too bad if the are also Pew fellows?
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #84 - Apr 29th, 2010 at 9:40pm
 
Quote:
It's not the same as a conspiracy - it's rather more subtle and less pre-meditated.


So all the public owned institutions have accidentally acquired an interest that is in conflict with the public interest that prevents honest scientists from being able to speak the truth?
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #85 - Apr 30th, 2010 at 8:22am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 29th, 2010 at 9:40pm:
Quote:
It's not the same as a conspiracy - it's rather more subtle and less pre-meditated.


So all the public owned institutions have accidentally acquired an interest that is in conflict with the public interest that prevents honest scientists from being able to speak the truth?


You can't help yourself FD. One strawman after another.  Have a look at the article on iron triangles, this explains what is happening rather well.
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #86 - Apr 30th, 2010 at 9:11pm
 
Yet you can't bring yourself to actually say it yourself? Does it sound to silly when you put it in your own words?
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #87 - May 1st, 2010 at 7:58am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2010 at 9:11pm:
Yet you can't bring yourself to actually say it yourself? Does it sound to silly when you put it in your own words?


Duh, I have just spent pages putting it in my own words. Ie explaining the conflict of interest. The  term 'iron triangle' has been coined by political scientists to descibe how conflict of interest has become so prevalent and systematic in a variety of government  activities. 
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #88 - May 1st, 2010 at 8:24am
 
And you are now claiming this to be government wide - across all relevant government institutions?
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Re: Reefgate!
Reply #89 - May 1st, 2010 at 12:17pm
 
freediver wrote on May 1st, 2010 at 8:24am:
And you are now claiming this to be government wide - across all relevant government institutions?


I'm saying it's occuring with marine parks, related government bureaucracy's, green groups and government politicians and their preference partners. Other government initiatives/ policies are outside this debate, but as the link shows iron triangles have been observed in other areas of government in the United States.
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