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Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy (Read 31478 times)
mozzaok
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #15 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 4:33pm
 
The 7 Billion dollar figure for diesel fuel subsidies mentioned by muso is pretty staggering.
Now he says it is for the mining industry, but I always thought it was a general exemption for "Primary" producers, which would include, loggers, farmers, and any other industry that can legitimately describe themselves as Primary producers.

If there is another extra allowance for mining companies on top of that exemption, then I would agree that it should go.

The Libs can never put forward a policy we could take seriously when their ranks are so full of ignorant denialists, as they will always be paying lip service at best, to an issue they consider either false, or unimportant.
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Soren
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #16 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 8:58pm
 
Maybe the issue is false or unimportant. Just maybe. Have a liitle doubt.

Mozz. you don't believe in the resurrection - so why start a psychic life of belief with AGW? You know what Chesterton said -people like you, who don't blieve in god, start to believe in anything. Don't be the subject of a clever quip. Why make that 'anything' such a predicatbly fashionble, passing thing? Don't be a dandy, a slave to fashion this late in life. Why be part of the herd if you have avoided it thus far - if you have avoided it.







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freediver
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #17 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 9:35pm
 
A rational approach to risk management is not a passing fad.

Why are you sounding more and more like a hippy Soren?
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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mozzaok
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #18 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 11:07am
 
I generally am a pretty skeptical person, by nature, yet I also believe that it is the height of foolishness to just ignore professional advice, when you get it.

Now even if too much hyprbole is thrown around by some journalists, and politicians, about global warming, it does not alter the fact that I consider the advice given by the IPCC, even with it's faults, is still the best professional advice available.
I acknowledge they are fallible, and they will need to continuously adjust their findings, as mistakes are corrected, and more accurate data is collected, but to dismiss the whole thrust of their findings out of hand, out of sheer bloody minded obstinance, or by perversely elevating the value of opinions of sporadic crackpots, over that of the accumulated wisdom of the bulk of the scientific community, is beyond what any fair minded person could categorise as merely being skeptical.

So I can retain a healthy skepticism, and still acknowledge that the best information we have demands we address global warming as a real, and present threat to our environment, to do any less would just seem foolhardy.
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Brendon
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #19 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 7:00pm
 
If we can't trust scientists to read a thermometer, we are in trouble. This stuff isn't rocket science, y'know.

Collate figures, take out variables, draw a graph. Extrapolate. Thats about it.
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freediver
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #20 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 7:03pm
 
I think nutting out the causative relationships is a bit more involved.
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Brendon
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #21 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 7:08pm
 
Lets accept it has been warming. Lets move away from all the cherry picking thats done such as starting from 1998 all the time. And other such diversions.

Its warming.

So, talking about causative relationships, the only reply to "its not CO2", is to come up with what it really is. In the IPCC report, all the causative effects have been removed out of the graph, except CO2. They take out the solar variation, el ninos...etc

If not CO2, what is the cause?
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« Last Edit: Feb 8th, 2010 at 10:24pm by Brendon »  
 
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Darwin
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #22 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 4:45pm
 
The cause is CO2 (and methane, nitrous oxide etc but mainly CO2.)

CO2 is not just a greenhouse gas it is dissolved into the oceans making them more acidic so threatening the basis of all marine life.
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Soren
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #23 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 6:05pm
 
But we'll have endless supplies of soda water from the desalination plants. Beauty!

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muso
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #24 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:30am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 7:03pm:
I think nutting out the causative relationships is a bit more involved.


Involved yes - but pretty well established. In a nutshell, if you add energy to a system, it's going to warm up. CO2 does that by slowing down the rate at which the earth loses heat by radiation.

Infrared (blackbody) radiation from the Earth is intercepted by CO2 molecules and re-emitted at all different angles, thus decreasing the IR radiation that was previously heading out to space. The other greenhouse gases, including water do a similar thing.

Very simplistically, it's a bit like putting on a jumper so that the heat escaping from your body is trapped.

Expressing that mathematically in terms of an atmospheric column of reducing density with altitude, is tricky to understand for the layperson. 

The changes are taking place mostly in the upper atmosphere.
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muso
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #25 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:38am
 
mozzaok wrote on Feb 7th, 2010 at 4:33pm:
The 7 Billion dollar figure for diesel fuel subsidies mentioned by muso is pretty staggering.
Now he says it is for the mining industry, but I always thought it was a general exemption for "Primary" producers, which would include, loggers, farmers, and any other industry that can legitimately describe themselves as Primary producers.


What it comes down to is this: In Australia, the government is encouraging the burning of fossil fuels by handing out incentives to do so. The figure is actually more like 8 billion dollars combined in tax concessions. A substantial chunk of that goes to some of the largest companies in Australia in the form of diesel fuel rebates for mining and transport.

Effectively, through tax incentives, the government is spending approximately three times as much on encouraging the burning of fossil fuels as all the federal environmental protection measures combined. (most of my facts are from an article by Economist Simon O'Connor in this month's "Habitat Australia" )

This is what needs to be changed. It isn't a partisan issue. This has been going on for years under numerous governments.
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Soren
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #26 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:45am
 
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:30am:
The changes are taking place mostly in the upper atmosphere.


That is the expectation. But remind me, where did we read that satellites are not detecting the predicted upper-atmopheric warming? I recall a colourful graph NOT showing the tell-tale reddish blots up there.



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muso
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #27 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:58am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:45am:
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:30am:
The changes are taking place mostly in the upper atmosphere.


That is the expectation. But remind me, where did we read that satellites are not detecting the predicted upper-atmopheric warming? I recall a colourful graph NOT showing the tell-tale reddish blots up there.



You'll have to be more specific. I don't follow the latest contrarian guff.
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Soren
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Re: Abbott's Innocuous Climate Change Policy
Reply #28 - Feb 16th, 2010 at 10:19am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2010 at 9:35pm:
A rational approach to risk management is not a passing fad.

Why are you sounding more and more like a hippy Soren?


Globalwarminsceptic easily beats the odds-on favourite.


http://www.skyracing.com.au/media/playerv2.php?vxChannel=Audio%20Replay&vxClipId...

(loads in about 10 secs)
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