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proper Islamic rape (Read 20386 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #30 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:04am
 
The problem with all this is... Religions are rarely in the business of offering choices within their respective dogma... They're usually in the business of denying choice... Or making severe the consequences of deviance from dogma.
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #31 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:18am
 
Look at the title of the thread. Someone further back posted that spousal rape is permissable in Islam.

I'm not here to defend Islam when it comes to choice, just to say it that the acknowledgment of a woman's ability to refuse (angel cursing aside) seems to suggest that a husband has no right to rape. 

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #32 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:23am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:18am:
I'm not here to defend Islam when it comes to choice, just to say it that the acknowledgment of a woman's ability to refuse (angel cursing aside) seems to suggest that a husband has no right to rape. 


I'm afraid that's dismissive of a significant consequence... Being, that a woman really has no choice at all... Or... Deny your husband and be damned...

Yes, I'm sure there are those with enough grasp of Islamic rhetoric to sugar-coat that bitter pill, but, in the end, its bitterness still gets into your gut.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #33 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:30am
 
Making the distinction is important, particularly when animals like Karzai make spousal rape legal because it is supposedly Islamic. I'm sure there are plenty of women in Afghanistan that would prefer cursing angels to brutalising husbands with the law on their side.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #34 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:33am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:31am:
It states a man has authority over his wife's body, this means he could have sex with her whenever he pleased, does it not? It means that no consent would be required in order to have sex, as he has authority, not her.


abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:57am:
freediver,

Quote:
Abu, instead of trying to explain Biblical law to Christians, perhaps this would be a good time to explain what the status of a Muslim wife is in the Koran. Is she allowed to deny her husband sex?


Let's just say it's the same as the NT.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #35 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:33am
 
Quote:
  When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

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However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Quote:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

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Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Quote:
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

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They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.   (Judges 5:30 NAB)
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #36 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:38am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:30am:
Making the distinction is important, particularly when animals like Karzai make spousal rape legal because it is supposedly Islamic. I'm sure there are plenty of women in Afghanistan that would prefer cursing angels to brutalising husbands with the law on their side.

I'd suspect that the crucial point would be that women are not likely even to believe in cursing angels in the first place (at least not more than the very real fact of brutalising husbands)...

Husbands made more brutal, no doubt, by their conviction that brutality is permissible against those whom angels curse.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #37 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:01am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:38am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:30am:
Making the distinction is important, particularly when animals like Karzai make spousal rape legal because it is supposedly Islamic. I'm sure there are plenty of women in Afghanistan that would prefer cursing angels to brutalising husbands with the law on their side.

I'd suspect that the crucial point would be that women are not likely even to believe in cursing angels in the first place (at least not more than the very real fact of brutalising husbands)...



Okay, yes.

Quote:
Husbands made more brutal, no doubt, by their conviction that brutality is permissible against those whom angels curse.



Where does it say brutality for refusing sex was permissable at all?

If a man wants to brutalise a woman, he will find any excuse to do so. I read that hadith as directing men to leave their wives be if they deny them.

Anyway, I have said I don't believe the hadith is legitimately Islamic until I see something to support it in the Quran so I don't know why I'm arguing in defence of it.

My point was and is that rape in Islam is not permitted.


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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #38 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:13am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:01am:
Where does it say brutality for refusing sex was permissable at all?

If a man wants to brutalise a woman, he will find any excuse to do so. I read that hadith as directing men to leave their wives be if they deny them.

Well yes, of course you would... You're a woman.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:01am:
My point was and is that rape in Islam is not permitted.

I would argue that, like a lot of religious dogma (Islamic or otherwise), there's often a covert approval of brutality in the name of orthodoxy... After all, what are they worth to demented zealots, the ones god and angels curse? What would those demented by religious zeal make of an opportunity to brutalise (or, 'do what needs to be done', if you prefer a euphemism) in the name of a deity?

Unfortunately neither god nor an angel is available for comment or clarification... Only 'High Priests' are on hand for that... Who, of course, have a vested interest in the 'orthodox' outcome.

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #39 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:12am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:13am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:01am:
Where does it say brutality for refusing sex was permissable at all?

If a man wants to brutalise a woman, he will find any excuse to do so. I read that hadith as directing men to leave their wives be if they deny them.

Well yes, of course you would... You're a woman.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:01am:
My point was and is that rape in Islam is not permitted.

I would argue that, like a lot of religious dogma (Islamic or otherwise), there's often a covert approval of brutality in the name of orthodoxy... After all, what are they worth to demented zealots, the ones god and angels curse? What would those demented by religious zeal make of an opportunity to brutalise (or, 'do what needs to be done', if you prefer a euphemism) in the name of a deity?

Unfortunately neither god nor an angel is available for comment or clarification... Only 'High Priests' are on hand for that... Who, of course, have a vested interest in the 'orthodox' outcome.




Are all believers in organised religion demented or just zealots?

A zealot is irrational. Are all believers? Zealots can and do find a way to interpret anything to suit them.

And there's the problem.


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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #40 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:17am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:12am:
Are all believers in organised religion demented or just zealots?

No, just the demented ones.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:12am:
A zealot is irrational. Are all believers? Zealots can and do find a way to interpret anything to suit them.

Yes they do... And there's nothing that lends itself so well both to cynical interpretation and immutability than religious dogma.

And that's the core problem... the union of cynical interpretation and immutability... Religious dogma rarely, if ever, changes... (Although the Catholic Church has gone some way to rectifying that by making the pope infallible).
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #41 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:56am
 
Quote:
And that's the core problem... the union of cynical interpretation and immutability


Yes.

There are plenty of people challenging traditional interpretations of Islam and Islamic texts - especially those referring to women.

The problem is perhaps in the hadith. They are used by men all over the Islamic world to deny women the rights given to them in the Quran.

I'm anticipating your reply that says "no, the problem is all religion itself."
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #42 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:00pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:56am:
I'm anticipating your reply that says "no, the problem is all religion itself."

Well... Its a bit like the argument "guns don't kill people... People kill people" So lets have guns in every house.

Having said that... Religion is in-eradicable... Like guns.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #43 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:16pm
 
Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam. But that does not mean it is encouraged.

In Australia, forced sex in marriage was not a punishable offence until very recently. Does this mean that our grandparents promoted forced sex in marriage simply because Australian law did not ounish it?

How Does Islam Tell Men To Treat Women?


The Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “Woman was created from a rib, and if you try to straighten a rib you will break it, so
deal with her gently
.”
(Reported by Ahmad, 5/8; Ibn Hibbaan, 1308; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2/163).

“O you who believe!...you should not treat them with harshness...And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and God brings through it a great deal of good
[al-Nisaa’ v.19]

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: “The Apostle of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘Be kind to women.’
(Bukhaari, 3153; Muslim, 1468).

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best in attitude, and
the best of you are those who are best to their womenfolk.”
(Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1/217; Ahmad, 2/250; Al-Silsilat al-Saheehah, 284).


Not harming one’s wife is one of the basic principles of Islam. Because harming others is forbidden in the case of strangers, it is even more so in the case of harming one’s wife.

It was narrated from Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit that the Apostle of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) ruled, “There should be no harming nor reciprocating harm.”
(Ibn Maajah, 2340 - graded as "authentic" by Imam Ahmad, al-Haakim, Ibn al-Salaah and others)

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #44 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 2:46pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:56am:
Quote:
And that's the core problem... the union of cynical interpretation and immutability


Yes.

There are plenty of people challenging traditional interpretations of Islam and Islamic texts - especially those referring to women.

The problem is perhaps in the hadith. They are used by men all over the Islamic world to deny women the rights given to them in the Quran.

I'm anticipating your reply that says "no, the problem is all religion itself."


Perhaps there is scope for progressive movement within Islam, but from what I have seen this only happens when Islam is abandoned. So much of Islam is about the rules governing every aspect of state and person, that once you strip them away there is not much left.

Quote:
Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam. But that does not mean it is encouraged.


Falah, can you explain the difference between legalising something and encouraging it? It is like marijuana, where if you legalise it then maybe all the cool kids will stop doing it?

BTW, thanks for a straight answer (finally). It was good of you to stop with your silly demands that I find the passage in the Koran for you that says rape is OK.
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