Australian Politics Forum - proper Islamic rape

Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: proper Islamic rape Reply #15 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 10:54am Men are not permitted to rape their wives if they don't feel like having sex in Islam.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: proper Islamic rape Reply #16 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 11:41am Annie, can you explain all the passages that compel wives/slaves to have sex whenever their husbands/owners demand it, and the absence of any requirement for consent? Isn't their a set of conditions (none of which is 'I don't feel like it') when a wife is allowed to deny her husband sex?
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falah

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #17 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 12:49pm

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 11:41am:

Annie, can you explain all the passages that compel wives/slaves to have sex whenever their husbands/owners demand it, and the absence of any requirement for consent?

Isn't their a set of conditions (none of which is 'I don't feel like it') when a wife is allowed to deny her husband sex?

Just show us the one that says rape is allowed.

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Soren

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #18 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 2:08pm

Muhammad said: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460).

He also said: "By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel's saddle" (Ibn Majah 1854).

"When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven."

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a kafir (non-Muslim), whether he is Jewish, Christian or an atheist because the man has authority over his wife, and it is not permissible for a kafir to have authority over a Muslim woman. There are decisive texts from the Qur?an which refer to the prohibition of such marriage. For example, Allah Almighty says, ?And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al Mushrikun (atheists) till they believe (in Allah Alone)? (Al-Baqarah: 221)

And so on.

SO there is no rape in islam only in so far as there is no refusal of sex by a wife if the husband wants it.

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freediver

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #19 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 2:21pm

falah wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 12:49pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 11:41am:

Annie, can you explain all the passages that compel wives/slaves to have sex whenever their husbands/owners demand it, and the absence of any requirement for consent?

Isn't their a set of conditions (none of which is 'I don't feel like it') when a wife is allowed to deny her husband sex?

Just show us the one that says rape is allowed.

Falah, I am agreeing with you - Islam defines the rape out of existence, so the koran would hardly describe it as rape if it is permissible.

Does a husband need consent from his wife to have sex with her (other than the past agreement to marry him)?

Does a man need consent from a concubine to have sex with her?

What may Islamic troops do with a female soldier caught in battle?

What more evidence do I need than your goofy attempts at obfuscation in the face of these simple questions?

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17513 Gender:	Re: proper Islamic rape Reply #20 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 6:01pm At 1min 08- The wife must consent to her husbands wishes and obey him The wife in the west is not obliged to do so Moreover ,a wife can be raped by her husband there They claim that if he has sex with her against her will this is rape! They consider this rape They claim she must be willing
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Annie Anthrax

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #21 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 6:50pm

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 11:41am:

Annie, can you explain all the passages that compel wives/slaves to have sex whenever their husbands/owners demand it, and the absence of any requirement for consent?

I have read the hadith by Bukhari that Soren posted above about the angels cursing women who refuse to have sex with their husbands. I haven't read anything similar in the Quran - I can't say for sure it's not there, I just haven't seen it.

Still, that hadith implies that the woman has the choice and that her refusal means her husband goes to bed unsatisfied. It doesn't say he gets to force her.

Quote:

Isn't their a set of conditions (none of which is 'I don't feel like it') when a wife is allowed to deny her husband sex?

Do you have a link? I've certainly never heard of such a list. I doubt it's in the Quran and it would be if it was true.

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Soren

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #22 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 7:07pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 6:50pm:

Still, that hadith implies that the woman has the choice and that her refusal means her husband goes to bed unsatisfied. It doesn't say he gets to force her.

Yeah, under Islam woman has a choice... Sure. What else?

She is under the man's authority and as long as he is OK with it, she can do whetever she likes. As long as she does what he tells her, she is free to do anything. Brilliant.
I don't see why you left Islam. Your mind still works like a Muslim's.

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: proper Islamic rape Reply #23 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 7:15pm That's what you understood from what I wrote? Are you really that stupid?
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: proper Islamic rape Reply #24 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 7:17pm Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 7:15pm: That's what you understood from what I wrote? Are you really that stupid? You couldn't make sense if you tried. I am guessing as you never actually try. You blabber and duck and hint because you have no clue. The only plain speaking you are capable of is slagging people off.
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: proper Islamic rape Reply #25 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 7:25pm Go to bed, Enid. I'm sure having every thread that you and I happen to both post in deteriorate into a sh1t slinging match is irritating for everyone else.
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falah

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #26 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 10:03pm

Soren wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 2:08pm:

Muhammad said: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460).

He also said: "By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel's saddle" (Ibn Majah 1854).

"When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven."...

...SO there is no rape in islam only in so far as there is no refusal of sex by a wife if the husband wants it.

You have not given us any verse from the Quran or hadeeth that mentions rape or forced sex. What you have shown is advice that islam gives to women. All you have shown us that Islam advises women that they have a duty to satisfy the sexual needs of their husbands. There is no mention of rape or forced sex.

Soren wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 2:08pm:

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a kafir (non-Muslim), whether he is Jewish, Christian or an atheist because the man has authority over his wife, and it is not permissible for a kafir to have authority over a Muslim woman. There are decisive texts from the Qur?an which refer to the prohibition of such marriage. For example, Allah Almighty says, ?And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al Mushrikun (atheists) till they believe (in Allah Alone)? (Al-Baqarah: 221)

It seems that you are deliberatley misleading people by giving fake Quran quotes here.

The verse actually says something along the lines of:

Quote:

And do not marry idolatresses until they believe (in God Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) idolatress, even if she (an idolatress) pleases you (with her beauty etc.). And do not marry (Muslim women) to idolaters until they believe (in God Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) idolater, even though he pleases you (with his wealth etc.). Those (polytheists) invite you to the Fire (of Hell), but God invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His revelations clear to mankind that they may remember.

So Muslim men are not allowed to marry polytheistic women, just as Muslim women are not allowed to marry polytheistic men.

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« Last Edit: Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 10:24pm by falah »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #27 - Mar 4^th, 2012 at 8:38am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 6:50pm:

Still, that hadith implies that the woman has the choice and that her refusal means her husband goes to bed unsatisfied. It doesn't say he gets to force her.

Annie, I'd have to say that a woman's freedom of choice, according to your understanding, is as dismal a choice as Sartre's idea of the same (being... you're always free to choose, in that you can always choose death if you will not choose an alternative option... or in your understanding... Sure the woman is free to choose, so long as she accepts the contempt - and possible retribution - her choice will bring upon her, from a supernatural entity).

Is... "Accept option A or die/be cursed" really a choice at all?

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: proper Islamic rape Reply #28 - Mar 4^th, 2012 at 8:54am I don't accept that the hadith is legitimate unless it is supported in the Quran. I think you'll find it's not. Abu or Falah are more qualified to say if that is so. Even if it's not ideal, isn't some semblance of choice preferrable to the suggestion that is it permissable for a man to rape his wife if she's not in the mood?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #29 - Mar 4^th, 2012 at 8:57am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 8:54am:

I don't accept that the hadith is legitimate unless it is supported in the Quran. I think you'll find it's not. Abu or Falah are more qualified to say if that is so.

Even if it's not ideal, isn't some semblance of choice preferrable to the suggestion that is it permissable for a man to rape his wife if she's not in the mood?

You'll have to amplify "some semblance of choice". As it stands, it's still dismal (and deflective - or maybe dismissive) and, really, no choice at all.

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