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proper Islamic rape (Read 32384 times)
freediver
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proper Islamic rape
Jan 25th, 2010 at 8:47am
 
Moved from the Isam board:

Abu, you said before that islam only permits the rape of female soldiers caught in battle, because they were assisting the men. However, this site seems to claim that traditional rape and pillage has divine support. That is, you kill the men then capture the women. It is not limited to female soldiers or co-combatants.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-rape.htm

It is against Islam to rape Muslim women, but Muhammad actually encouraged the rape of women captured in battle. This hadith provides the context for the Qur’anic verse (4:24):

   The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain.  They met their enemy and fought with them.  They defeated them and took them captives.

   Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.  So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150)

Actually, as the hadith indicates, it wasn't Muhammad, but "Allah the Exalted" who told the men to rape the women in front of their husbands, which is all the more reason not to think of Islam as being the same as other religion.

There are several hadith in which Muhammad is asked for his opinion on how women should be raped following their capture.  This pertains to an episode in which his men were reluctant to devalue their new slaves for later resale by getting them pregnant.  Muhammad was asked about coitus interruptus in particular:

   "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?"  The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

As indicated, the prophet of Islam did not mind his men raping the women, provided they ejaculated within the bodies of their victims.

As one might imagine, Muhammad's obvious approval of raping women captured in battle, and his own personal participation as recorded in many places, is of intense inconvenience to the Muslim apologists of our time.  For this reason, some of them attempt to explain away these many episodes and Qur'anic references to sex with captives by pretending that these are cases in which women have fled bad marriages and sought refuge with the Muslims.  Some apologists even refer to them as "wives," even though the Qur'an makes a clear distinction between "those whom thy right hand possesses" and true wives (see Sura 33:50).

Beyond the desperation of the 21st century apologist however, there is absolutely nothing in the historical text that supports this rosy revision of Muslim history.  The women of the Banu Mustaliq were sold into slavery following their rape:

   "We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

In fact, female slaves were traded like any other simple commodity by Muhammad and his Muslims:

   "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq 693)

Is it Muslim to sell one's wife for horses?  Clearly these were not wives!

More importantly, by definition a "captured" woman is not one who is fleeing her husband.  She is fleeing her captor (ie. the Muslim slave raider).  This hadith describes a typical raid, in which the women and children are captured as they are attempting to flee the attacking Muslims:

   “…and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought.  Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners.  I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children [escaping in the distance].  I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain.  When they saw the arrow, they stopped.  So I brought them, driving them along” (Sahin Muslim 4345)

The Muslim narrator (who happens to be Muhammad's adopted son) sees the women trying to escape (following the massacre of their men) and cuts off their route by shooting an arrow into their path.  These aren't women trying to seek refuge with the Muslims.  They are trying to avoid capture by the Muslim.
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« Last Edit: Jan 25th, 2010 at 6:02pm by freediver »  

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freediver
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Re: Rape
Reply #1 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 8:48am
 
The same hadith goes on to recount that Muhammad personally demanded one of the captured women for his own use:

    I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize.  So we arrived in Medina.  I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

The prophet of Islam and his companions used war to collect women for personal sexual use and for trading.  Unless she was arbitrarily declared as someone's wife, the woman became a sex slave.  In no case was her fate tied to anything that she had personally done, nor was she given a choice about her future.
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« Last Edit: Jan 25th, 2010 at 6:01pm by freediver »  

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Calanen
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #2 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 10:45pm
 
Earth to freediver, how long have I been saying that for. I posted a thread somewhere saying how Mohammed had killed the Jewish men and taken one of the Jewish women for his 'wife'. Abu then went on to say 'You cant prove there was any rape counsellor' or some such.

Yeah after hacking her husband's head off with a scimitar, and killing all her people - I am sure she *willingly* went with Moe the bad head (which is why he wouldnt let anyone paint him, he had a disease that made him ugly).

The women of the infidels are the 'war booty' that the jihadi get. That your right hand possess - remember that cryptic phrase in the Koran - that's your slave women that you get to bonk, and u get slaves by taking the women off the infidels in a jihad. All infidel marriages are automatically annulled in a jihad victory. So the Muslims can take their pick of the women to rape with a clear conscience.

Also, as to rape in marriage, a woman cannot refuse sex in a marriage from her husband - only for medical reasons and then she can only make him wait up to 3 days.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #3 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 12:50pm
 
From Abu's thread of misconceptions:

Quote:
In modern warfare, women and children no longer accompany the army to increase its numbers and encourage its men to fight, so there does not remain even one situation in which enslaving occurs. Therefore, Islam has abolished slavery


Abu, isn't war more likely these days rather than less likely to occur in urban areas where women and children are present? For example, in the 100 years or so that you insist that the west has been at war with the Islamic world, on how many occasions did a Muslim army meet their enemy on the battlefield (like Muhammed did in his rape and pillage days) rather than trying to hide their rocket launchers under the full body covering that they force their wives to wear?

Also, how is it logical to conclude that Islam has abolished slavery while also claiming that it is a result of the nature of war changing?
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #4 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 1:50pm
 
There is no such a thing as "proper" rape, not even if the woman was a soldier caught in battle, fighting alongside or assisting the men.

Anyone who suggests there is such a thing as "proper" rape, is not a man but an animal.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #5 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:25pm
 
Another good point. These days, women often take part as soldiers, rather than merely travelling with the soldiers to 'encourage' them. Does Islam permit the rape of these women too?

Why would an Islamic scholar insist that Islam had outlawed these acts because the nature of war had changed to prevent the situation arising?
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #6 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:27pm
 
That sounds a bit better than the bibles position on rape
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #7 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:29pm
 
How many people do you know who want to turn the biblical position on rape into statutory law?

As far as I know, every Muslim on this forum wants to get shariah law adopted.
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #8 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:29pm:
How many people do you know who want to turn the biblical position on rape into statutory law?

As far as I know, every Muslim on this forum wants to get shariah law adopted.

Probably a lot of priests
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #9 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:37pm
 
Freediver, through all your insinuation, you have yet to show any proof that Islam condones rape.

In the Islamic tradition, concubines are treated like wives in Islam, and there are lot of rules regarding the good treatment of slaves captured in war. Prophets like Abraham and Solomon lived with their concubines in this manner.

A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a "sariyyah" (concubine) from the word "sirr", which means marriage in Arabic.

Prophet Muhammed could have taken Saffiyah, the Jewish princess, as a slavegirl - and there is much Biblical precedence for this; Prophets Abraham and Solomon had concubines. People urged Prophet Muhammed to take Saffiyah as his own personal slave, as it was seen as only the leader of the Muslims should take possession of the daughter of the leader of the Jews. However, Prophet Muhammed honoured Saffiyah, by freeing and marrying her. Safiyah converted to Islam of her own free choice.

Safiyah, herself, narrated how the Prophet treated her kindly and was concerned for emotional wellbeing.

Safiyah became a commited Muslim even performing a pilgimage to Mecca with Prophet Muhammed.

In fact, Safiyah became a scholar of Islam, and Muslims would come to her asking for advice on Islam after the Prophet had passed away.

People noticed that the prophet was particularly kind to Safiyah. For example, the Prophet would normally seclude himself in the mosque for the last few days of the month of Ramadan, usually not leaving unless for very important matters.  However, when Safiyah called him, he left the mosque and accompanied her home:

‘Ali ibn al-Husayn reported that Safiyyah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) told him that she once came to the Apostle of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) to visit him whilst he was in seclusion in the mosque, during the last ten days of Ramadan. She spoke with him for a while, then she wanted to go back to her house, so the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) got up and took her back…
(al-Bukhari, 1894)
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #10 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 8:07pm
 
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:30pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:29pm:
How many people do you know who want to turn the biblical position on rape into statutory law?

As far as I know, every Muslim on this forum wants to get shariah law adopted.

Probably a lot of priests


Have you ever asked one?

Quote:
Freediver, through all your insinuation, you have yet to show any proof that Islam condones rape.


Does a husband need consent from his wife to have sex with her (other than the past agreement to marry him)?

Does a man need consent from a concubine to have sex with her?

What may Islamic troops do with a female soldier caught in battle?

What more evidence do I need than your goofy attempts at obfuscation in the face of these simple questions?

Quote:
In the Islamic tradition, concubines are treated like wives in Islam, and there are lot of rules regarding the good treatment of slaves captured in war.


Do any of these rules include the need for consent before having sex with your wife/slave?
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #11 - Mar 2nd, 2012 at 8:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 8:07pm:
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:30pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:29pm:
How many people do you know who want to turn the biblical position on rape into statutory law?

As far as I know, every Muslim on this forum wants to get shariah law adopted.

Probably a lot of priests


Have you ever asked one?


I Just assumed on the account of how many rape little children
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #12 - Mar 3rd, 2012 at 8:25am
 
falah wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:37pm:
Freediver, through all your insinuation, you have yet to show any proof that Islam condones rape.

Prophet Muhammed could have taken Saffiyah, the Jewish princess, as a slavegirl - and there is much Biblical precedence for this; Prophets Abraham and Solomon had concubines. People urged Prophet Muhammed to take Saffiyah as his own personal slave, as it was seen as only the leader of the Muslims should take possession of the daughter of the leader of the Jews. However, Prophet Muhammed honoured Saffiyah, by freeing and marrying her.



We could take your word for this Falah or we could ask someone who knows about what is preached in Islam.
Quote:
Is it permissable for a man to force (Rape?) his wife or slave to have intercourse if she refuses?

The woman does not have the right to refuse her husband,rather she must respond to his request every time he calls her.

Similarlly slave woman does not have the right to refuse her masters requests
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/33597

That preacher says the woman has no right to refuse sex and you claim Islam does not condone rape?

Safiyya was married when Mohammad and his band of thugs attacked her tribe.
Her husband Kinana al Rabi was tortured and killed on Mohammads orders.
From Ibn Hisham-
"The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found,When he asked about the rest he refused to produce it so the apostle gave orders to al Zubayr al Awwam, Torture him until you extract what he has,So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead,then chopped his head off"

Right so Mohammad attacked her tribe ,stole all their wealth,killed all the men and somehow Safiyya consented to marry the guy who ordered her husband be tortured and killed.
Mohammad married Safiyya on the same day he tortured and killed her husband,muslims say he was a kind man who married widows.
Do you think a rational person will believe your cock and bull stories falah?
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #13 - Mar 3rd, 2012 at 9:39am
 
Quote:
the apostle gave orders to al Zubayr al Awwam, Torture him until you extract what he has,So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead,then chopped his head off


Is that true Falah?
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Re: proper Islamic rape
Reply #14 - Mar 3rd, 2012 at 10:21am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 8:07pm:
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:30pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:29pm:
How many people do you know who want to turn the biblical position on rape into statutory law?

As far as I know, every Muslim on this forum wants to get shariah law adopted.

Probably a lot of priests


Have you ever asked one?

Quote:
Freediver, through all your insinuation, you have yet to show any proof that Islam condones rape.


Does a husband need consent from his wife to have sex with her (other than the past agreement to marry him)?

Does a man need consent from a concubine to have sex with her?

What may Islamic troops do with a female soldier caught in battle?

What more evidence do I need than your goofy attempts at obfuscation in the face of these simple questions?

Quote:
In the Islamic tradition, concubines are treated like wives in Islam, and there are lot of rules regarding the good treatment of slaves captured in war.


Do any of these rules include the need for consent before having sex with your wife/slave?


Freediver you keep lying that Islam promotes rape. Yet you haven't shown me the where the word "rape" or "force" appears in the Quran.

Islam orders good treatment of captives. A man who hit his female slave was ordered by Prophet Muhammed to free her as expiation.

Muawiyah bin Al-Hakam As-Salmi said: "I had a slave-girl who used to herd sheep for me. One day I discovered that a wolf had killed one of her sheep, and I'm a man from the children of Adam, I get upset like they get upset, and I slapped her in the face. Then I went to the Prophet who impressed upon me the seriousness of my act. I said, 'O Apostle of God, should I not set her free?'...He said: 'Free her...'
(Recorded by Abu Dawud, and also recorded with 'authentic hadeeth' status by Muslim)
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