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Henry Mencken quote on religion (Read 5487 times)
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #45 - Jan 4th, 2010 at 12:47pm
 
it's always interesting when people attack the catholic church about its scientific credentials. citing earth being the centre of the solar system versus the sun and the big bang theory as examples of curch hostilities.

According to a popular notion the point, upon which beyond all others churchmen were determined to insist, was the geocentric system of astronomy. Nevertheless it was a churchman, Nicholas Copernicus, who first advanced the contrary doctrine that the sun and not the earth is the centre of our system, round which our planet revolves, rotating on its own axis. His great work, "De Revolutionibus orbium coelestium", was published at the earnest solicitation of two distinguished churchmen, Cardinal Schömberg and Tiedemann Giese, Bishop of Culm. It was dedicated by permission to Pope Paul III in order, as Copernicus explained, that it might be thus protected from the attacks which it was sure to encounter on the part of the "mathematicians" (i.e. philosophers) for its apparent contradiction of the evidence of our senses, and even of common sense. He added that he made no account of objections which might be brought by ignorant wiseacres on Scriptural grounds. Indeed, for nearly three quarters of a century no such difficulties were raised on the Catholic side, although Luther and Melanchthon condemned the work of Copernicus in unmeasured terms. Neither Paul III, nor any of the nine popes who followed him, nor the Roman Congregations raised any alarm, and, as has been seen, Galileo himself in 1597, speaking of the risks he might run by an advocacy of Copernicanism, mentioned ridicule only and said nothing of persecution. Even when he had made his famous discoveries, no change occurred in this respect. On the contrary, coming to Rome in 1611, he was received in triumph; all the world, clerical and lay, flocked to see him, and, setting up his telescope in the Quirinal Garden belonging to Cardinal Bandim, he exhibited the sunspots and other objects to an admiring throng.

Now the inquisition did erroneously brand Galileo's views as heretical later on, however this was more to do with political reasons (pissed of jesuits and a pope who felt betrayed by Galileo) that anything else and was by no means usual.

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The Big Bang theory was developped by catholic preist with support of the pope and opposed by scientific community including einstein.

In 1924, Edwin Hubble's measurement of the great distance to the nearest spiral nebulae showed that these systems were indeed other galaxies. Independently deriving Friedmann's equations in 1927, Georges Lemaître, a Belgian physicist and Roman Catholic priest, predicted that the recession of the nebulae was due to the expansion of the Universe.

In 1931 Lemaître went further and suggested that the evident expansion in forward time required that the Universe contracted backwards in time, and would continue to do so until it could contract no further, bringing all the mass of the Universe into a single point, a "primeval atom", at a point in time before which time and space did not exist. As such, at this point, the fabric of time and space had not yet come into existence.

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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #46 - Jan 4th, 2010 at 1:39pm
 
- and it took a truly great man to apologise for the church's condemnation of Galileo.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/01/world/vatican-science-panel-told-by-pope-galil...
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #47 - Jan 4th, 2010 at 2:12pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 4th, 2010 at 1:39pm:
- and it took a truly great man to apologise for the church's condemnation of Galileo.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/01/world/vatican-science-panel-told-by-pope-galil...


Yes.

To be fair though Galileo's evidence was flawed (though his theory in itself  was correct) and so when he tried to prove it at the time he failed under scrutiny.

It was also a pity he personally attacked his benefactor (the pope) in his publication of his theory at the time, Urban felt betrayed and when he read it because it made him look like an idiot for believing in geocentrism.

The personal feelings of Urban no doubt influenced the decision making of the court case.
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« Last Edit: Jan 5th, 2010 at 8:06am by Classic Liberal »  
 
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #48 - Jan 4th, 2010 at 2:20pm
 
I take it you mean geocentrism.

/pedantic mode off
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #49 - Jan 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm
 
Classic Liberal wrote on Jan 4th, 2010 at 2:12pm:
It was also a pity he personally attacked his benefactor (the pope) in his publication of his theory at the time, Urban felt betrayed and when he read it because it made him look like an idiot for believing in egosentrism.

Freudian slip? Grin

The greatest of reasons to maintain separation from religion and state...

Prevent the arbitrary of abuse of power that presumption of divine right to rule invariably engenders... As Iran's shocking example attests.
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #50 - Jan 4th, 2010 at 7:35pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 3rd, 2010 at 9:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2010 at 8:59pm:
That would be my interpretation too, and what I would expect from them. Maybe Stephen was just being a drama queen.

Funny, that's exactly what Galileo said to Marina Gamba about Urban VIII... Grin

Bitchy, bitchy there FD Grin


Seriously, from a historical perspective Galileo is pretty insignificant. There are a lot of genuinely nasty things that the church has done, but they get little air time because they don't further the goals of people like Hawking. The scientific community needs to grow up. They can't play the victim for a millenia because one man got killed. Overall the church has been very good to science. A bit of perspective would be fair, rather than trying to misrepresent the Pope and milk the death of Galileo for a cheap publicity stunt. The Pope seems to have a far better grasp of the philsophy of science than Hawking.





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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #51 - Jan 4th, 2010 at 10:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2010 at 7:35pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 3rd, 2010 at 9:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2010 at 8:59pm:
That would be my interpretation too, and what I would expect from them. Maybe Stephen was just being a drama queen.

Funny, that's exactly what Galileo said to Marina Gamba about Urban VIII... Grin

Bitchy, bitchy there FD Grin


Seriously, from a historical perspective Galileo is pretty insignificant. There are a lot of genuinely nasty things that the church has done, but they get little air time because they don't further the goals of people like Hawking. The scientific community needs to grow up. They can't play the victim for a millenia because one man got killed. Overall the church has been very good to science. A bit of perspective would be fair, rather than trying to misrepresent the Pope and milk the death of Galileo for a cheap publicity stunt. The Pope seems to have a far better grasp of the philsophy of science than Hawking.

Mostly agree with you FD...

But let's remember that it was the Church that played out the Galileo fiasco for nearly 400 years... that's 400 years... And for what? To uphold the honour of a vain dead priest.

And yes it took a truly remarkable high priest to finally do what should have been done a long time ago. A truly remarkable priest nearly 400 hundred years after the event to do what any decent human being would have done while Galileo was still alive... How's that for perspective? Grin

The Galileo affair is an eternal reminder to the world that religion has absolutely no right to its claims of temporal authority. Christian/Islamic/Hindu/xxxx theocratic rule makes jailers, liars and murderers of its agents.
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« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2010 at 10:38pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #52 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 8:07am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2010 at 7:35pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 3rd, 2010 at 9:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2010 at 8:59pm:
That would be my interpretation too, and what I would expect from them. Maybe Stephen was just being a drama queen.

Funny, that's exactly what Galileo said to Marina Gamba about Urban VIII... Grin

Bitchy, bitchy there FD Grin


Seriously, from a historical perspective Galileo is pretty insignificant. There are a lot of genuinely nasty things that the church has done, but they get little air time because they don't further the goals of people like Hawking. The scientific community needs to grow up. They can't play the victim for a millenia because one man got killed. Overall the church has been very good to science. A bit of perspective would be fair, rather than trying to misrepresent the Pope and milk the death of Galileo for a cheap publicity stunt. The Pope seems to have a far better grasp of the philsophy of science than Hawking.







Galileo was put under house arrest not killed.
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #53 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 10:46am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2010 at 7:35pm:
Seriously, from a historical perspective Galileo is pretty insignificant. There are a lot of genuinely nasty things that the church has done, but they get little air time because they don't further the goals of people like Hawking. The scientific community needs to grow up. They can't play the victim for a millenia because one man got killed.



Actually there were a few others apart from Galileo. Giordano Bruno springs to mind, and he was actually burnt at the stake.

Do you really think the scientific community is concerned about Galileo?  Hawking's off-the-cuff remark was just a bit of light hearted banter. Nothing more.
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #54 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 12:04pm
 
Quote:
further the goals of people like Hawking.

Who are "people like Hawking"?
What goals are they trying to further?
Why do you have a problem with this?
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #55 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 4:15pm
 
Quote:
But let's remember that it was the Church that played out the Galileo fiasco for nearly 400 years


How so?

Quote:
Who are "people like Hawking"?
What goals are they trying to further?
Why do you have a problem with this?


People who try to play up the conflict between religion and science, usually for publicity, sometimes just because it seems intuitive. A lot of it comes from the evolution vs creationism struglle in the US, where both sides are making false claims of scientific credibility. My main problems with it are the historical inaccuracy and the difficulty it creates for those trying to promote a philosophically rational approach to the place of evolution and creationism in the education system. It undermines the credibility of science and prevents people from thinking about what science actually is. The same issues come up in the global warming debate, the marine park debate, and many others. People constantly liken science to religion, and have trouble coming to terms with the personal, dogmatic style of scientists, the adversarial style of the debate within the scientific community, the role of consensus in science, etc.
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #56 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 5:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2010 at 4:15pm:
Quote:
But let's remember that it was the Church that played out the Galileo fiasco for nearly 400 years


How so?

The Church upheld the edict of the Inquisition against Galileo until 1992. However, I don't believe the Church has yet formally quashed his conviction of heresy.
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #57 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 6:37pm
 
I'm sure there are plenty of other nasty decisions they 'uphold' by not revisiting them. That they reversed whatever decision on Galileo would have more to do with the level that the scientific community has raised the issue to, rather than the priority of the church.
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #58 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 6:57pm
 
Touche!
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Re: Henry Mencken quote on religion
Reply #59 - Jan 5th, 2010 at 7:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2010 at 6:37pm:
I'm sure there are plenty of other nasty decisions they 'uphold' by not revisiting them. That they reversed whatever decision on Galileo would have more to do with the level that the scientific community has raised the issue to, rather than the priority of the church.

I'm sure there are... However, the Galileo affair has been a source of acute embarrassment and angst for the church over hundreds of years... Just what to do when the Vicar of Christ, with authority to bind and loose on heaven and earth, so vehemently condemns an innocent man? What would the Protestants think if the Church had admitted to an error? Would it add fuel to the fire of their claim that Luther's excommunication was unjustified or that his protestations against Rome were valid?

These are the conundrums and the tragic consequences when society cedes power to clergy.

What would zealots and clerics not do to uphold the honour of god?
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