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Afghan girl killed by British propaganda (Read 16931 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #30 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 8:43pm
 
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That is due entirely to the population growth in Islamic countries...


My presence here is a direct challenge to that bogus claim, isn't it  Grin
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Soren
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #31 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 9:03pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 5th, 2009 at 8:43pm:
Quote:
That is due entirely to the population growth in Islamic countries...


My presence here is a direct challenge to that bogus claim, isn't it  Grin



No it is not. Western converts to Islam are insignificant, both numerically and doctrinally. You only matter for propaganda purposes.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #32 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 9:23pm
 
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Western converts to Islam are insignificant, both numerically


If that makes you feel better  Grin

Btw, check out this thread you might just be surprised what % of Aussie Muslims happen to be Anglo-Aussies.

Quote:
and doctrinally.


Well all Muslims, recent converts or descendants of converts all down through the ages are doctrinally insignificant, since our doctrine is already correct, no need to be updated and revised and corrupted by the minds of men. Since ours is the actual pristine message of the Creator, not chinese whispers like yours.

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You only matter for propaganda purposes.


If my mere ethnicity can generate propaganda for Islam, I'm glad. Doesn't stop me making conscious efforts also.

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Soren
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #33 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 9:36pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 5th, 2009 at 9:23pm:
Well all Muslims, recent converts or descendants of converts all down through the ages are doctrinally insignificant, since our doctrine is already correct, no need to be updated and revised and corrupted by the minds of men. Since ours is the actual pristine message of the Creator, not chinese whispers like yours.






Hubris. It is always doomed. The 'pristine message' is maintained by the threat of death and only by that. It has zero intellectual or moral power. It worked in the camel age, with illiterates. Today, you are buggered, as far as maintaining groupthink is concerned. The caravan has not only left the osais, pal, it's been sold as petfood. The blowtorch of reason is coming your way.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #34 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 9:48pm
 
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It has zero intellectual or moral power. It worked in the camel age, with illiterates.


There's 1300 years of Islamic civilisation, and about the same of Christian 'civilisation' for us to compare. And the comparison doesn't tip in your favour. Islam was characterised by it's high literacy rates, whilst Europe only permitted itself to be ruled by Christianity as long as it remained illiterate. You know as well as I do, for most of your religion's history, it was forbidden to even translate the Bible into local languages, lest the supposed adherents actually read what it said. And since it was translated, apostasy and secularism have skyrocketed. Christians left their religion in droves once it was actually translated for them.
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #35 - Oct 5th, 2009 at 10:09pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 5th, 2009 at 9:48pm:
Quote:
It has zero intellectual or moral power. It worked in the camel age, with illiterates.


There's 1300 years of Islamic civilisation, and about the same of Christian 'civilisation' for us to compare.



Compare away.

You come out unbelievably orse in every account. As if time has stood still for Islam. Well, it has.

You can't dine out forever on a brief period 900 years ago when Islam, in a fit of absentmindedness, forgot to destroy everything pre-Islamic. And that fit of forgetfulness happened to coincide with your contact with western and Indian thought (fancy that).
Then, when you decided on the self-sufficient gratness and purity of Islam - the wheels started to fall off and now you are, collectively, at the bottom of every conceivable scale of human achievement, satisfaction, productivity. Islam's slothful ideology has suffocated you.

Islam now attrracts only the angry and the disaffected. And holds its natives in a deadly grip.  There is no future in either of these growth demographics.


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abu_rashid
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #36 - Oct 7th, 2009 at 8:43pm
 
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Compare away.


Is there even a comparison to make? Were they even on the same playing field?? Honestly soren, go back and study the history, but leave your euro-centric anti-Islamic bias at the door. Plenty of Western historians have gone back and done just that, and plenty of documentaries have now been produced in English, that can give you a fair and accurate appraisal.

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You come out unbelievably orse in every account. As if time has stood still for Islam. Well, it has


For the past few centuries, yes. But prior to that, the simple fact is Europe wasn't even on the same playing field as Islamic civilisation.

Quote:
You can't dine out forever on a brief period 900 years ago when Islam


Not trying to dine out. Just challenging your nonsensical claims that Islam is for illiterate camel herders. If you didn't make the ridiculously wild claims, then I wouldn't be bringing historical examples to smash them down. Is that as good as your argument gets? Enticing me to dig up past glories, so you can accuse me of trying to dine out on them?? Bravo...

Quote:
in a fit of absentmindedness, forgot to destroy everything pre-Islamic.


As has been mentioned, was a pretty long fit... If it lasted for one ruler or two, I might buy it... or perhaps a single dynasty... but it didn't. Please go and read the history, IF you wish to speak about history and not sound like such a sheltered ignoramus.

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nd that fit of forgetfulness happened to coincide with your contact with western and Indian thought (fancy that).


Yes Islam benefitted from previous civilisations AS DOES WESTERN CIVILISATION YOU GIT. As did every single civilisation in the history of mankind. That's part of the very essence of the story of human civilisation, is that we learn from and build upon what came before us. That's what seperates a civilisation from a tribe of cavemen who keep sharpening the same tools over and over generation after generation.

Your continual infantile attempts to proclaim Islam to be a plagiarised ciivlisation, unlike all the other authentic original valid civilisations just highlights the futility of your position.

Quote:
Islam now attrracts only the angry and the disaffected. And holds its natives in a deadly grip.  There is no future in either of these growth demographics.


Your bitter and alarmist view towards Islam betrays your true concerns about who/what Islam is attracting... And you know it.
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #37 - Oct 7th, 2009 at 8:59pm
 

hahahhaah abu - so if we went back a few centuries, islam would have been better??

guess what, we are not 200 years ago.
we are now, we have computers, cars.

paedophile praising islamic nutter
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #38 - Oct 7th, 2009 at 9:25pm
 
You have been going down the gurgler for between 400 and 900 years. Let's say 400. Four hundred years. Four hundred. For 400 years Islam has done nothing. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not one thing.

The west has outrun you precisely because it is not afraid to learn from any other culture. It promotes talent. The entire western ethos is about improvement (hint: it is tied to the preoccupation with redemption). It is about thriving for making this a better world. And the west has done immesurably more to make this a better world than all the rest put together and multiplied by a thousand. All other civilasions and cultures, Islam foremost among them, are slothful  by comparison and in fact.

Look around - what do you see that is not western? (other than ethnic food and garb)

You can use emotive language and post-colonial linguistic tics all you like. The fact remains that Islam has done bugger all for Muslims or humanity generally for 400 years. Why? Because it has never occured to Islam to do antything for anybody. It has not even conceived the idea in all its sorry 1400 year history.

It is only about perpetrating itself. Once you have submitted to Islam, there is nothing else to do but wait for Paradise. When it could no longer expand by conquest, all Islam could do was to sink into a slothful stupor. That's it. And the expansion stopped 400 years ago and so the stupor has laster for 400 years.

It is now stirring again in the hope of conquering Europe. Hence its renewed presence in our consciousness. AT the same time it remains negligible in every aspect except its desire for conquest. There is nothing else to it. Not one thing. Conquest - or nothing.

Islam has nothing to say beyond demanding submission. It paralyses everyone except for spreading the submission virus. Submit and get others to submit. That's all there is to it. It's Lord of the Flies stuff.



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« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2009 at 10:05pm by Soren »  
 
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #39 - Oct 7th, 2009 at 9:54pm
 

Soren - 10/10
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #40 - Oct 8th, 2009 at 9:54am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 5th, 2009 at 8:43pm:
Quote:
That is due entirely to the population growth in Islamic countries...


My presence here is a direct challenge to that bogus claim, isn't it  Grin



We don't hear much from people who leave Islam because of the very real threat of death against them by Musulmans. Proof, if more was needed, that Islam is only about Islam, nothing else.
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #41 - Oct 8th, 2009 at 10:12am
 
Abu Rashid, would you sign this declaration? Would all your Muslim friends and relatives sign it?


Quote:
The Muslim Pledge for Religious Freedom and Safety from Harm for Former Muslims
Whereas:

All four schools of Sunni Islamic law (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali), as well as the other main schools of Shia Islamic law (al-Ismā īliyyūn and Ithnā ashariyya), unanimously agree that a former Muslim male, also known as an apostate, must be executed. While some hold that an apostate woman should also be executed, the Encyclopedia of Islamic Law: A compendium of the Major Schools, adapted by Laleh Bakhtiar, states that she should be imprisoned or beaten five times a day until she repents or dies. These specific world renowned Islamic legal authorities join in this consensus:

Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr, Abdullah al-Mishadd , Al-Azhar University, the pre-eminent Shariah legal authority, Fatwa issued 23rd September 1978: “This man has committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be killed according to Shariah. As far as his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam and they do not repent they must be killed…”*


Mufti of Lebanon, Beirut, Fatwa issued 13 November 1989: “Now, should the apostate (male or female) persist in his apostasy, he should be given the opportunity to repent, prior to his being put to death, out of respect for his Islam. A misunderstanding on his part may have taken place, and there would thus be an opportunity to rectify it. Often apostasy takes place on account of an offer (of inducement). So Islam must be presented to the apostate, things should be clarified, and his sin made manifest. He should be imprisoned for three days, so that he may have the opportunity to reflect upon his situation. This three-day period has been deemed adequate. But if the man or the woman has not repented of his or her raddah, but has continued to persist in it, then he or she should be put to death…”*


Ibn Rushd (Averroes), The Distinguished Jurist’s Primer, “Chapter on the Hukm of the Murtadd (Apostate),” Volume II, (p. 552), Section 56.10: “An apostate, if taken captive before he declares war, is to be executed by agreement in the case of a man, because of the words of the Prophet (God’s peace and blessings be upon him), “Slay those who change their din:. They disagreed about the execution of a woman and whether she to be required to repent before execution. The majority said that a woman (apostate) is to be executed…”


Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller, translation approved by Al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy and IIIT, 1994. (p. 595): “ o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed….o8.4 There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die).”


Ismail R. Al-Faruki , the Founder of International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT), Islam, 1979, (p. 68): “That is why Islamic Law has treated people who have converted out of Islam as political traitors…[Islam] must deal with the traitors when convicted after due process of law either with banishment, life imprisonment, or capital punishment…but once their conversion is proclaimed, they must be dealt with as traitors to the state.”


Louay Safi, the former Executive Director of IIIT and the Executive Director of the Islamic Society of North America’s (ISNA) Leadership Development Council, Peace and the Limits of War, IIIT publication, 2003 (p. 25): “A quiet desertion of personal Islamic duties is not a sufficient reason for inflicting death on a person. Only when the person’s desertion of Islam is used as a political tool for instigating a state of disorder, or revolting against the law of Islam, can the individual apostate then be put to death as a just punishment for his act of treason and betrayal of the Muslim community.”

Shaikh Syed Abul A’ala Maududi, Pakistani Islamic authority, The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, translation by Syed Silas Husain, 1994: “In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. All the jurists of Islam agree with this decision. On this topic absolutely no difference exists among the experts of shari’ah.”

Therefore:

To support the civil rights of former Muslims, also known as apostates from Islam, I sign “The Muslim Pledge for Religious Freedom and Safety from Harm for Former Muslims”:

I renounce, repudiate and oppose any physical intimidation, or worldly and corporal punishment, of apostates from Islam, in whatever way that punishment may be determined or carried out by myself or any other Muslim including the family of the apostate, community, Mosque leaders, Shariah court or judge, and Muslim government or regime.



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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #42 - Oct 8th, 2009 at 10:26am
 
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Ibn Rushd (Averroes), The Distinguished Jurist’s Primer, “Chapter on the Hukm of the Murtadd (Apostate),” Volume II, (p. 552), Section 56.10: “An apostate, if taken captive before he declares war...


This is the real issue here, which your ignorant claims neglect to take into account. The Islamic texts which speak about capital punishment for the apostate make it quite clear that it's speaking about the traitor who commits treason. Islamically the two are intrinsically linked, which makes it difficult to seperate the issues today.
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #43 - Oct 8th, 2009 at 10:27am
 
Jusst out of curiousity soren, what on earth does this have to do with this topic? Is your mind just that focused on trying to smear Islam, that you aren't even aware where you post this stuff?
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Re: Afghan girl killed by British propaganda
Reply #44 - Oct 8th, 2009 at 10:30am
 
abu - liar liar liar.

"those who change their religion, kill them ....." - some murderous paedophile albeit a good general

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