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British culture and modern wealth (Read 8752 times)
Soren
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #15 - Sep 3rd, 2009 at 11:19pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 3rd, 2009 at 11:16pm:
Sadly yes. Muslims have become very naive in political issues unfortunately.



What made so many so naive?
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abu_rashid
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #16 - Sep 3rd, 2009 at 11:26pm
 
Hard to say, especially when it occurred several centuries ago.

Most likely a lack of focus on education and perhaps also the excessive asceticism of the sufis, which led to people being generally apathetic about 'worldly matters'.
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #17 - Sep 3rd, 2009 at 11:28pm
 
Are you saying that they have been naive for centuries and still are?
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #18 - Sep 3rd, 2009 at 11:43pm
 
Don't act so surprised soren.
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #19 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 8:23am
 
Soren wrote on Sep 3rd, 2009 at 11:07pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 3rd, 2009 at 11:05pm:
Very few of them claim to be Islamic. And those that do, quite obviously only do to appease their populations, who are largely sincere Muslims, and would reject them outright if they did not.

Those that do are about as Islamic as the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is Democratic. ie. in name only.



You mean to say that tens if not hundreds of millions of Mulism are duped by such a simple thing?





But Soren, how can hundreds of millions of 'rightly guided' moslems be duped by false moslems???
/sarc off

It beggars belief, if you'll pardon the pun.


abu,

All 'rightly guided' moslems who know their religion, and study the Koran, and Hadith, would know that fake moslems were misleading them, and all of those 'rightly guided' moslems would rise up and Jihad against the ['moslem'] infidels - SURELY!!?

As all 'rightly guided' moslems are obligated to do, by ISLAM.
/sarc off



So abu, why have the immense 'populations', of these 'moslem' countries,
'who are largely sincere Muslims'
, not already fulfilled their obligation to ISLAM and Allah, to remove these infidels who rule over them?

Your argument just doesn't make sense.

The reason for being [on the planet], the religious obligation for each moslem, is to establish Sharia [Allah's just law] WHERE THEY LIVE, so why are all of these moslems, these moslems
'who are largely sincere Muslims'
, these moslems who are 'rightly guided' moslems, why have they not
ALREADY
established the proper ummah, under proper, 'just' Sharia, where they live?







Answer:

Because ISLAM,
at its heart
, is a failed culture, based on violence, fear, lies, and falsehood, and the repression of the human spirit.

ISLAM is a parasitic culture, which always needs something stronger, and external to itself, to feed off.

ISLAM has proved, historically, that wherever it prevails [with its inherent violence], it always then, fosters repressive, violent, unjust regimes, which suppress all human creativity, and produce no cultural wealth in, and of, themselves.

ISLAM is a parasitic death cult, which seeks to dupe, and then to destroy, all of its more meritorious neighbours.







MY ARGUMENT BEING; if ISLAM is indeed, such an inherently meritorious philosophy, there would ALREADY be in existence, in many places around the world, regimes predicated upon ISLAM which were shining EXAMPLES to the rest of mankind.
And much of mankind, would have ALREADY recognised ISLAM's meritorious nature, and have ALREADY adopted ISLAM as a system of law.

.....BUT INSTEAD, all we have, in ISLAM's very homelands, is a series of failed states, which produce nothing, except violence, and poverty, and we have people like you abu,   ....moslems, explaining how ALL of ISLAM's failings, are a conspiracy, against moslems, and how all of moslems/ISLAM's failings are the fault of 'others', the fault of non-moslems.



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« Last Edit: Sep 4th, 2009 at 9:19am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Soren
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #20 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 9:07am
 
I can't find the flaw in your reasoning Yadda, but this can't be true!!

It has to be somehow the fault of Christians and Jews. Shurely shome misshtake.

Abu?
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #21 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 10:50am
 

true, if islam WAS better than sliced bread, it'ld be successful.
the west goes with what is best.

but islam is in it's death throws

by hte proof, you have to say islam is well past its "use by" date
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #22 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 11:34am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 4th, 2009 at 10:50am:
but islam is in it's death throws

by hte proof, you have to say islam is well past its "use by" date


If this is the case then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world?

As far as Australia goes - apparently Buddhism is Australia's fastest growing non-Christian religion and Hinduism in Victoria. Interesting - so we shouldn't feel threatened by a minority of Muslims here - they are only 1.7% of the population. We are still predominantly Christian although declining.
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #23 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 11:58am
 

mantra - that's not true.
One of the top islamics from iran was bemoaning the fact islalm is losing numbers rapidly.

add to that muslims are generally poor and have LOTS of kids, noone can leave it, many live in villages where reliable figures are rubbery .........

people are leaving it by the shipload as soon as they can without being murdered.

there are a lot of conflicting ideas we hear from muslims.
the "growth" of it is only one.


Websites of former muslims who converted to Christianity
Zak Gariba - Former Muslim Imam
Walid Shoebat - A Former PLO Islamic Terrorist
Jeremiah Fard Muhammad - Former Muslim minister
Nonie Darwish - Freelance writer and public speaker
Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner - Turkish Ex-Muslim(Dean of Liberty Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, Va)
Reverend Donald Fareed - Iranian Ex-Muslim, Persian Ministries
Dr. Abraham Sarker - Bangladeshi Ex-Muslim, "Gospel for Muslims" Ministries . Also: http://www.understandmymuslimpeople.com
Hussain Andaryas - Afgani Ex-Muslim
Afgan Converts WebSite
David Naseer
Emir Caner - Dean of The College at Southwestern
Dr. Nasir K. Siddiki - Muslim businessman, Now Christian Preacher
WL Cati- Zennah Ministries
Ajeenah El-Amin
Abdul Hakeem - Nur Ul alam Ministry
An Ex-Muslim Christian Website run by Iraqi ex-Muslims
Pastor Hormoz Shariat Ph.D, Scientist, Iranian Ex-Muslim, Now Tele-Evangelist
Rev. Majed El Shafie
Simin - Iranian ExMuslim
Mohammed Altaf(Now Simon Altaf) - Pakistani ex-Muslim
One Anonymous muslim
Jerry Rassamni - Ex-Militant, Now Christian, popular speaker on apologetics
Paul Ciniraj Mohamed - SALEM VOICE MINISTRIES
Ellie Davidian - former devout Shiite Muslim

Former Muslim Preachers, Mullahs, Imams, Scholars and Dawah missionaries who left Islam and converted to Christianity
Dr Mustafa( Now Mark Gabriel)Former Muslim Imam, Ex-Professor in Al Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt(Most prestigious Islamic school of theology )
Dr. Muhammed Rahoumy(now Dr. Samuel Paul) - former Dean in Al Azhar Islamic University in Cairo Egypt.
El-Faqi, an ex-Imam and lawyer
Hajji Husman Mohamed - a former ethiopian Muslim Imam
Hamran Ambrie - Indonesian Ex-Muslim Priest
Mohammed Amin - Former Ethiopian Islamic Cleric
El-Akkad - Former Muslim Preacher, Egypt
Ak-Beket - former Imam, Kazakhstan
Mullah Assad Ullah - Former mullah, Afganistan
Indonesian Imam Left Islam, He also led 3000 Moslems to Christ
Fahmir - A Mullah started to preach Gospel in Afghanistan
Mullah's supernatural conversion - becomes church planter
Sudan: Moslem Imam converts to Christianity
Kosovo - Converted Muslim leads Mullah to Christ
Imam decides to follow Christ after seeing Jesus film
Former Mosque Teacher Launches Christian Radio Ministry
Rev. Mawlawi Dr. Imad ud-Din Lahiz - Prolific Islamic Writer, Preacher, Quranic Translator
Khalif Majid Hassan - Former Islamic Preacher, Minister in the Nation of Islam
Jeremiah Fard Muhammad - Muslim minister, now Christian evangelist
Saleh Hussaini - Former Nigerian Muslim Cleric
Sam Solomon - a former Muslim scholar
Yusuf Roni - Former Islamic Dawah Missionary, Islamic Youth Organization Chairman, Indonesia - Now Christian Preacher
Jamal Zarka - Former Muslim Imam, Now Evangelist
Sheikh Mohamed Mansour - Prominent Egyptian Muslim Sheikh and Islamic Scholar
Hamza - former Islamic scholar
Timothy Abraham - Former Muslim preacher, Fundamentalist. Now Christian Preacher
Daniel Shayestah- Former koranic teacher, scholar
Ahmed Abdullahi - former muslim cleric
Emmanuel (formerly Mohammed) - Former Muslim Scholar
Zak Gariba - former Muslim Imam
Mr. Moro S. Franci - Former Imam
Mario Joseph (Moulvi Sulaiman) - former Muslim cleric - india
[edit] Other Prominent Converts to Christianity from Islam
Mosab Hassan, former member of Hamas
Nozad-Renowned Iranian Muslim Scholar
Rev. Hamid Pourmand - Former Iranian army colonel
Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner - Turkish ex-Muslim, Now Dean of Liberty Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, Va
Zachariah Anani - Lebanese Islamic Ex-Militant
Mohammed Altaf ( Now Simon Altaf) - Pakistani ex-Muslim - Abrahamic Faith Ministries
Reverend Donald Fareed - Iranian Ex-Muslim
Ibrahim Abdullah - former PLO Terrorist
Bilquis Sheikh - former wife of a Minister of the Interior, in Pakistan
Salah - Ex-Muslim Palestinian, Now Gospel Musician
Dr. Abraham Sarker - Former Muslim, Bangladesh - Now christian Evengelist, Founder of "Gospel for Muslims" Ministries.
Pastor Hormoz Shariat Ph.D(in Computers) - Iranian Ex-Muslim, Former Research Scientist in Artificial Intelligence, Now Tele-Evangelist, Bringing the Gospel to Iran.
Emir Caner - Turkish Ex-Muslim. (Brother of Dr.Ergun Mehmet) Dean of The College at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Bishop John Subhan - Former Sufi Muslim
Abdul Saleeb - Former Sufi Muslim from Middle East, Now Christian Missionary to Muslims.
A Kurdish leader, writer, historian finds God through Bible translation
Gulshan Esther - Pakistan Ex-Muslim, Smitten with typhoid - then crippled by polio as a teenager , Healed by Lord Jesus Miraculously, Became Christian Preacher
Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo - a former Muslim, Now leads the largest and Fastest growing church in England.

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Muslims_who_left_Islam
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #24 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:05pm
 
Quote:
Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa?s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed ?..



translated from arabic from aljazerra, now appears here -  http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972

the other great offensive lie I get told is "We like having lots of your white women converting to islam......."
as though they will trick guys there by pretending there is a surplus of women there.
how like mohammad
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #25 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:31pm
 
mantra wrote on Sep 4th, 2009 at 11:34am:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 4th, 2009 at 10:50am:
but islam is in it's death throws

by hte proof, you have to say islam is well past its "use by" date


If this is the case then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world?

As far as Australia goes - apparently Buddhism is Australia's fastest growing non-Christian religion and Hinduism in Victoria. Interesting -
so we shouldn't feel threatened by a minority of Muslims here - they are only 1.7% of the population
. We are still predominantly Christian although declining.




mantra,

Your logic doesn't gel with me.

Extending your logic,.....

For the sake of an analogy, if all moslems were dogs, and say, there were 1.7% rabid dogs, among that population of dogs, would you be behaving in paranoid way, to be fearful of EVERY SINGLE DOG which approached you in the street!???

I don't believe so.

i.e. On first look, how could you determine if the dog you extended your hand to in the street, was rabid??




mantra,

To myself, many devout, many good moslems,
do behave like rabid dogs
, towards non-moslems and their non-moslem host communities.


...
"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"





mantra,

I do feel threatened by such unruly displays,
by rabid moslems
, threatening murder an mayhem, against me, and mine.

IMO, ALL of the people in the image above should have done to themselves,
....EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE THREATENING TO DO TO OTHERS.





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« Last Edit: Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:52pm by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #26 - Sep 4th, 2009 at 1:18pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:31pm:
IMO, ALL of the people in the image above should have done to themselves,
....EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE THREATENING TO DO TO OTHERS.







I might point out that such a punishment, applied to those moslems, would be justice indeed.

As such a punishment [execution], is exactly what ISLAM itself mandates, for such crimes.





"Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:
They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
(Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/...
v. 60-62

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #27 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 8:08pm
 
Quote:
It would be stupid to change the spelling to make it 'easy' or modern or to get rid of the 'baggage' of the Greek and Latin and French origins of words.


That doesn't make any sense. How could you get rid of the origins of words?

Quote:
I think these things illustrate what kind of thing culture is.


They don't explain how you think it benefitted the British of other European and Asian groups in dominating the world. Also, you seem to jump effortlessly between culture being a bunch of values that are almost universally recognised to culture being the useless baggage we inherited from our ancestors. It is hardly illuminating. Are you pushing the theory that British culture played a significant role in British dominance, or are you just trying to highlight the difficulty in defining culture?

Quote:
FD,

Was there a comparable 'Magna Carta' [which emerged from a revolt against a sovereigns apparent abuse of his absolute power] before Runnymede?


Good point Yadda. This sort of thing makes a lot more sense than saying our culture was better because of the nice English gardens. And yes, there are plenty of examples, from both before and after.

Quote:
Although Magna Carta was a compact, sharing 'sovereign' power among [and yes, exclusively! among] a group of powerful barons AND a king, Magna Carta was a compact seeking government through a crude form of equality, rather than the use of brute force of pre-eminent 'king' to enforce his sole will, upon others.


It still sounds like brute force to me - just with more brutes. I'm sure the various criminal mafias around the world had an equally galant power sharing agreement. Otherwise there would be chaos and before you know it, regular people would be demanding a say in how they are governed.

Quote:
And didn't the British law which we have today, largely evolve from the principles first established in the Magna Carta compact?


Nothing happens in a vaccuum Yadda.

Quote:
Hard to say, especially when it occurred several centuries ago.


I would say that it is down to not knowing anything but religious dictatorship for so many centuries, and believing as part of their religion that a return to the past is the only way forward.
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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #28 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 10:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 8:08pm:
Quote:
It would be stupid to change the spelling to make it 'easy' or modern or to get rid of the 'baggage' of the Greek and Latin and French origins of words.


That doesn't make any sense. How could you get rid of the origins of words? [/quote

What don't you understand (yet again)?
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

Quote:
I think these things illustrate what kind of thing culture is.


They don't explain how you think it benefitted the British of other European and Asian groups in dominating the world. Also, you seem to jump effortlessly between culture being a bunch of values that are almost universally recognised to culture being the useless baggage we inherited from our ancestors. It is hardly illuminating. Are you pushing the theory that British culture played a significant role in British dominance, or are you just trying to highlight the difficulty in defining culture?




You are the onl;y one who has set the question in terms of such sumplistic straw-man terms: bunch of values and useless baggage.

Culture did play a significant role in British dominance. There is no Spanish Commonwealth or Chinese Commonwealth. Phrasing the idea as 'pushing the theory' pre-empts any intelligent exchange of ideas. Hence my earlier diagnosis of you: here's another man in a fit of resentment. You are grasping after anything as long as it is in the negative: you even formulate the issue in a pre-emptively negative manner.

And I cannot decide whether you are deaf and blind to it or think yourself cunning.



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Re: British culture and modern wealth
Reply #29 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 10:26pm
 
Quote:
I would say that it is down to not knowing anything but religious dictatorship for so many centuries


FD we've been over this so many times before. For the first 500-600 years of Islam's existence, the entire Islamic world was the most adherent to Shari'ah (which you term "religious dictatorship") and yet none of the decline you keep trying to associate with that, occurred. In fact it was quite the opposite, they just kept growing, expanding, advancing century after century after century.

Add to this the fact Islamic Shari'ah DEMANDS that Muslims remain highly educated, that Muslims seek excellence in knowledge, not just about religion, but about the world, universe, humanity, sciences etc. (all of this is mentioned quite specifically in Qur'an and Hadith).

On the flip side, we have the last 500 years of Islamic history, in which Muslims began to move away from implementing Shari'ah, and instead began implementing unIslamic laws and ideologies, and in tandem we've seen nothing but decline.

Now the facts just simply don't support what you consistently claim. If these events weren't so removed from one another by centuries, you might have some kind of a case (even then it'd be slim), but the fact they are so far removed from one another makes your case completely ridiculous.
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