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Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail (Read 11783 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #15 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 1:27pm
 
soren,

Quote:
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/4571795.Sadistic_pair_jailed_for_horr...


Sounds to me like a Muslim who'd abandoned Islam and instead adopted the "Western values and lifestyle"

Quote:
The drink and drug-fuelled pair took turns to rape the woman after horrifically killing the child’s pet in front of him...


Also only one of them is from Muslim background...

Quote:
Stefan Reed, 17, of Lister Avenue, West Bowling, Bradford, was sent to detention for nine years...


Sounds like a very Christian name to me. So one of them was Christian and one Muslim, and they were quite clearly engaging in the Western culture of drinking and drug taking (not to mention treating women like pieces of meat)... yet you want to somehow shove this into Islam's lap? What a joke.

And as for the one of Muslim background, his family disowned him:

Quote:
Abdul Iqbal, Shah’s barrister, said his family had disowned him.

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« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2009 at 1:32pm by abu_rashid »  
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #16 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 1:29pm
 
Yadda,

Quote:
The offender is not a moslem, .....just a crazed sex offender!


I've never promoted the idea a Muslim can't be a sex offender. It can happen, as it can amongst any nation/people/religion. On the contrary it's the non-Muslims who always play down the Christian background of the vast majority of sex offenders, and just love to highlight the occasional Muslim sex offender who occurs.
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #17 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 8:18pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 31st, 2009 at 1:29pm:
Yadda,

Quote:
The offender is not a moslem, .....just a crazed sex offender!


I've never promoted the idea a Muslim can't be a sex offender. It can happen, as it can amongst any nation/people/religion. On the contrary it's the non-Muslims who always play down the Christian background of the vast majority of sex offenders, and just love to highlight the occasional Muslim sex offender who occurs.


Islam is an identity, as we never stop hearing it. The Khan brothers, the Skaf gang, these pathetic rapists all over the western world, half of whom are called Mohammed something or other and who always try come up with some stupid cultural excuse, are identifying themselves with Islam as a defence.
Citizens of western secular societies do not identify themselves as Christian as a reason for committing a crime or as an excuse for not realising that it is a crime.

This is not a subtle, elusive diffrence. Let see if you can grasp it.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #18 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 9:31pm
 
soren, interesting that you chose to ignore my 4 point post addressed specifically to you, and instead focus on the 1 point post addressed to Yadda Smiley
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #19 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 10:07pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 31st, 2009 at 9:31pm:
soren, interesting that you chose to ignore my 4 point post addressed specifically to you, and instead focus on the 1 point post addressed to Yadda Smiley


I addressed your main point, the rest is padding - a muslim doing evil in the west must be somebody seduced or corrupted by western decadence, by your reckoning.
But not by his own or mine. These guys have never abandoned their muslim identity, no matter how much they drank or how many drugs they took. They remained, in their own minds and own words, Muslims. Read the court transcripts.

I am not saying that you are responsible for their crimes. You are only responsible for evading the connection between their acts and their identities, a connection that they themselves do not hide, judges recognise, the general public realise. You cannot excuse every Mohammed with 'oh, he strayed from Islam' because that very excuse includes Islam's responsibility for the man. Your very excuse frames the act in terms of Islam - the muslim has strayed. Your very formulation itself recognises and uphold the fact that the man was and remains a Muslim.
You do not even recognise that even the way you defend or excuse or fudge their identity perpetuates the very charge - that they act as Muslims.


And you cannot mount a symmetrical counter-argument because in a secular western society even those who are Christian by confession do not frame their civil or criminal actions as Christian act. The burglar does not break in because he has some sort  of Christian justification and the rapist does not threaten the victim with 'smacking her Vatican-style', (like the Skaf gand boasted to their victims about 'Leb-style'.)

Islam is a total system. They may be black sheep but they are Muslim black sheep. You own them, you fix them.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #20 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 10:37pm
 
Quote:
I addressed your main point


You clearly have a different understanding of the term "addressed" than I do.

Quote:
They remained, in their own minds and own words, Muslims


And here is the major flaw in your argument. Nowhere have I claimed they're not Muslims. A Muslim doesn't cease being a Muslim because he commits a crime. Actions do not take one outside of the fold of Islam. But it's quite clear their behaviour doesn't emanate from the Islamic viewpoint of life, which is that drinking and illicit sexual acts are crimes. Whilst in Western culture, these things are not crimes. So the only crime they commit in the West, is not having consent to do it.

So according to Islam, they've committed a capital offense, whilst according to the West, they're just a coupla rowdy lads, but since they're Muslims, we'll throw away the key. If the Skaf brothers were Aussies,  it's quite clear they wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the sentence they did. In fact I think only the Anita Cobby gang rapist murderers got a similar kind of sentence... Remember those good little Christian boys who mutilated and tortured that poor girl to death, whilst repeatedly raping her (3 brothers, along with others, one of whose name was John, and another Michael, ie. Biblical names, and a name of an Apostle no less!!).

Quote:
that they act as Muslims.


As I've clearly pointed out to you, their acts are more Western style activities, than Islamic style activities. Their actions are completely alien to Islam, and as with the case from England you mentioned, his family disowned him, because of the despicable unIslamic character of his actions.

Yet whilst the extent (and lack of consent) of their actions are outlawed in the West, the underlying actions of drinking and illicit sex are not.

Quote:
like the Skaf gand boasted to their victims about 'Leb-style'


Leb != Muslim.

Leb can be Muslim, Christian, Druze, Jew, Communist, Secularist, Atheist whatever you like. So I think comparing "Leb style" to "Vatican style" just highlights the desperation in your argument.
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #21 - Aug 31st, 2009 at 11:37pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 31st, 2009 at 10:37pm:
Quote:
I addressed your main point


You clearly have a different understanding of the term "addressed" than I do.

Quote:
They remained, in their own minds and own words, Muslims


And here is the major flaw in your argument. Nowhere have I claimed they're not Muslims. A Muslim doesn't cease being a Muslim because he commits a crime. Actions do not take one outside of the fold of Islam. But it's quite clear their behaviour doesn't emanate from the Islamic viewpoint of life, which is that drinking and illicit sexual acts are crimes. Whilst in Western culture, these things are not crimes. So the only crime they commit in the West, is not having consent to do it.

So according to Islam, they've committed a capital offense, whilst according to the West, they're just a coupla rowdy lads, but since they're Muslims, we'll throw away the key. If the Skaf brothers were Aussies,  it's quite clear they wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the sentence they did. In fact I think only the Anita Cobby gang rapist murderers got a similar kind of sentence... Remember those good little Christian boys who mutilated and tortured that poor girl to death, whilst repeatedly raping her (3 brothers, along with others, one of whose name was John, and another Michael, ie. Biblical names, and a name of an Apostle no less!!).

Quote:
that they act as Muslims.


As I've clearly pointed out to you, their acts are more Western style activities, than Islamic style activities. Their actions are completely alien to Islam, and as with the case from England you mentioned, his family disowned him, because of the despicable unIslamic character of his actions.

Yet whilst the extent (and lack of consent) of their actions are outlawed in the West, the underlying actions of drinking and illicit sex are not.

Quote:
like the Skaf gand boasted to their victims about 'Leb-style'


Leb != Muslim.

Leb can be Muslim, Christian, Druze, Jew, Communist, Secularist, Atheist whatever you like. So I think comparing "Leb style" to "Vatican style" just highlights the desperation in your argument.



These guys have not given up their Muslim identities. Some of them vocalised it while committing the crime, others brought it up as an excuse during their trials. Whatever the orthodox view of these crimes is (and I do not for a moment argue that rape is permitted within Muslim communities) these criminals identify themselves as muslims. Some use Islam as their excuse or as their justification. Not a few, like the Khan brothers, insist on blaming thei non-muslim victims for not ccnforming to their Mulism perception of correct behavior. Scandinavia, England, France, Germany are full of Mulsim rapists who routinely attack their victims in court as being tempters and excuse their own behaviour as if they were the injured, wronged party. And they draw these ideas from Islamic teachings which excuse the Muslim cats and blame the uncovered infidel meat.

Now, in so far as they are Muslims in their own heards, you are responsible for them. You are not responsible for their acts. But you, as a Muslim, share the blame for their ideas which excuse them as Muslims, justify them as Muslims, and on occasion send them forth as Muslims.
You ccould do much worse than putting your jihadi effiorts into civilising these straying Muslims. I will put my efforts into civilising straying secular citizens.

Leb style -  are you saying that Mohammed and Bilal all of a sudden had a multicultuiral, western nationalistic view of themselves where Christian, Druze. Jew and Communist are all fused into one, non-specific, non-muslim rainbow identity of 'Leb'? I mean, what motivates you for trying on such patent nonsense. You know it, I know it that they did and do identify as Muslims. Not Druze, not Jew, not Wacko Jacko rainbow.


What they think of as thei identity is not a flaw in my argument but the jist of it. And as your example of the horrific Cobby case illustrates, in a western court the cultural or religiouss backgrounds of the perpetrators ccounts for nothing. And get this - nobody is making slippery excuses for Jamison and the Murphy brothers, or whatever their names are. Yet you drag it all into the argument.


If the Muslims stray, it is your respnsibility. If they do good, I will credit you as well.






 


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abu_rashid
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #22 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 12:16am
 
Quote:
Some of them vocalised it while committing the crime


Unless you've got another example, then all you're talking about is someone vocalising a nationalistic identity, which as I told you, has nothing to do with Islam sorry, in fact it's the very antithesis of Islam. I am not a "Leb" and neither are 99.9999% of Muslims. In fact the word  Lebanon is a Hebrew word, from your own holy book, and the identity of "Lebness" stems from a Christian division of Muslim lands (according to Biblical naming schemes). In my view, anyone who calls to "lebness" is astray and is clinging onto nationalism, another evil condemned and rejected by Islam.

Quote:
and I do not for a moment argue that rape is permitted within Muslim communities


You quite clearly do.

Quote:
Not a few, like the Khan brothers, insist on blaming thei non-muslim victims for not ccnforming to their Mulism perception of correct behavior.


Even if they do, so what? It's about as relevant as a Christian claiming his beliefs drove him to shoot an abortionist. The wild claims of criminals only hold weight in the minds of simple minded people who want to see something bad.

Quote:
And they draw these ideas from Islamic teachings which excuse the Muslim cats and blame the uncovered infidel meat.


Sorry, there's no Islamic teaching about cats and meat.

Quote:
Now, in so far as they are Muslims in their own heards, you are responsible for them. You are not responsible for their acts. But you, as a Muslim, share the blame for their ideas which excuse them as Muslims,


Just as you share the blame for the ideas that Christians use to justify their attacks on abortion clinics... right?

Quote:
Leb style -  are you saying that Mohammed and Bilal all of a sudden had a multicultuiral, western nationalistic view of themselves where Christian, Druze. Jew and Communist are all fused into one, non-specific, non-muslim rainbow identity of 'Leb'?


No, what I'm saying is that the identity of "Leb" is a nationalistic identity. End of story, Islam doesn't even enter the discussion on that point. Australia is largely Anglican, so anyone using a term like "Aussie Style" would have to be Anglican and be referring specifically to their Anglican faith? A Catholic, Muslim, Atheist or Buddhist Australian couldn't use that term?

Quote:
If the Muslims stray, it is your respnsibility.


Do you take responsibility for stray Christians?

Quote:
If they do good, I will credit you as well.


I very much doubt you'd ever credit a Muslim, no matter how great he acted.
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Soren
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #23 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 12:30am
 
Your difficulty in this argument is that you cannot equate Islamic identity with secular identity.
Most Christians and Jews and in the west are secular. So when it comes to judging their civil or criminal behaviour, you cannot sheet ot home to their religion, which they may or may not have.

With Mulsim, on the other hand, Islam being a 'whole way of life and a complete identity' there is no sepaeration of civil, criminal or religious identity. They cannot give it up or separate it unless they want to be branded as apostates by you. So in the heads of the various Mohammeds who commit crimes, they do it as Muslims. Or are you calling them apostates?


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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #24 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 8:15am
 
by my reading mohammad does give "justification" of murder in the koran.

Quote:
The apostle said, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." Thereupon Muhayyisa bin Mas’ud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him.
Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, "You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?"
Muhayyisa answered, "Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off."
He said that this was the beginning of Huwayyisa’s acceptance of Islam.
The other replied, "By God, if Muhammad had ordered you to kill me would you have killed me?" He said, "Yes, by God, had he ordered me to cut off your head I would have done so." He exclaimed, "By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvelous!" And he became a Muslim.[2]



and
Quote:
When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?"
Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her.
In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!"
When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won’t butt their heads about her," so Umayr went back to his people. . . . The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam.
( or because they feared being murdered as well)

Ibid., p. 676

so any muslim can readily use the hadiths, koran and mohammad for justificatiion for about anything
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abu_rashid
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #25 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 9:21am
 
soren,

Quote:
Your difficulty in this argument is that...


In other words... you've resigned to the fact that your arguments are baseless, and if applied to you, you'd not accept them. So now you're going to veer off on some tangent about Islam being subject to criticism only, since Jews & Christians are secularists, and therefore should be above all reproach in these issues.

Thank you.

sprint,

Quote:
by my reading mohammad does give "justification" of murder in the koran.


By my reading of the Bible, the Judaeo-Christian prophets give "justification" to committing murder and far worse. Luckily you don't live by my reading.. right?

Quote:
so any muslim can readily use the hadiths, koran and mohammad for justificatiion for about anything


Likewise any Jew or Christian could use the Bible, Talmud and Moses for justification for about anything.
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #26 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 10:38am
 

abu - so youoaccept those quotes from the hadiths ?

i'm not a jew. I don't live by the OT.
I'm a xian, so I live by what jesus says.
I also live within the laws of the land I am in.

i have no idea what jews do, i dont care.
jews dont want to rule my life with an iron fist by force and ideiological dictators mired in the ancient past.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #27 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 10:50am
 
Quote:
abu - so youoaccept those quotes from the hadiths ?


Did you see me write as such?

Quote:
i'm not a jew. I don't live by the OT.


But a Christian could very well use the Bible (the OT specifically) to justify his actions, and throughout history, Christians _HAVE_ used the OT to justify their actions, sometimes quite horiffic actions.

And this is your point. Because it exists in the text, it could be used.

Quote:
I also live within the laws of the land I am in.


As do I, and as do the vast majority of Muslims, and Christians.
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Yadda
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #28 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 10:53am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 1st, 2009 at 12:16am:
Quote:
Some of them vocalised it while committing the crime


Unless you've got another example, then all you're talking about is someone vocalising a nationalistic identity, which as I told you, has nothing to do with Islam sorry
, in fact it's the very antithesis of Islam.




What utter rubbish, lies.



abu,

As a good moslem should, you are defending the violence which is inspired by ISLAM, against ALL non-moslems,
.....INCLUDING THE RAPE OF NON-MOSLEM WOMEN, AS A TACTIC OF 'JUSTIFIED' VIOLENCE, AGAINST NON-MOSLEM COMMUNITIES.


Quote:
"....attacks on girls as young as 13.... they had no right to say “no.” They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf, and therefore, the rapist proclaimed: “I’m not doing anything wrong.” "



http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/readarticle.asp?ID=20535&p=1




"The brothers, Muslims from Pakistan, targeted mostly Anglo-Saxon Australian girls whom they would later call "sluts" as they attacked them."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/27/1069825922999.html




Google,
"They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf" sydney muslim rape
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22They+were+not+covering+their+face+or+...







++++++++






Special Report - No. 10
September 26, 2002     No.10
    Friday Sermons in Saudi Mosques: Review and Analysis

    * Part I - 'The Christians and the Jews are "Infidels," "Enemies of Allah"'

    * Part II - 'Jews - The Descendants of Pigs and Apes'

    * Part III - 'It is Impossible to Make Peace With the Jews'

    * Part IV - 'Muslims Must Educate Their Children to Jihad… and to Hatred of Jews and Christians'

    * Part V - 'The Palestinian Struggle Must be An Islamic Jihad'

    * Part VI - 'Muslim Women's Rights are a Western Ploy to Destroy Islam'

    * APPENDIX - About Al-Minbar

Friday sermons delivered in the main mosques of Saudi Arabia are available on the Saudi-based website www.alminbar.net.[1] The following is a review and analysis of the major themes featured in these sermons....

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sr&ID=SR01002




Cleric preaches that violence is part of Islam
By Duncan Gardham
01/05/2007
In documents seen by The Daily Telegraph, al-Muhajiroun claimed: "Terrorism is a part of Islam" and "Allah made it obligatory to prepare and to terrify the enemy of Allah".
The article advised: "The kuffar of USA and UK are without doubt our enemy.There is no such thing as an innocent kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims. Not only is it obligatory to fight them, it is haram [forbidden] to feel sorry for them."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/01/nplot901.xmli
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« Last Edit: Sep 1st, 2009 at 11:00am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
Reply #29 - Sep 1st, 2009 at 10:57am
 

abu - you did not deny those quotes.
you did not accept them.
you do not condemn islamic terrorists
you do not accept their actions (openly)

so, tacit approval says, you accpet those quotes and agree with islamic terrorists.

quite probably christians have used the OT quotes to justify their evil actions.
this christian (and many others) condemn such actions and readily point to where they are wrong. legally, morally and spirtually.

point in case - the "christians" who bombed abortion clinincs were dobbed in by other christians . i would do that at the drop of a hat.

muslims do not dob in other muslim terrorists. in the same way you do not condemn them.

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