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tallowood

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spy vs spy
Jul 14^th, 2009 at 10:17am

or is it Hu vs Hu?

Quote:

The unusual thing about the dubious detention of Rio's Stern Hu is that it has become so public.
...
The immediate very public escalation of the arrest issue makes discreet high level use of guanxi - the uniquely Chinese concept of personal relationships - extremely difficult. And now that Chinese government sources are suggesting "their" Mr Hu - President Hu Jintao - personally approved the "investigation" that led to the arrest, it's all moved several steps beyond whatever a few words in mandarin by K. Rudd might achieve...

Quote:

...The biggest immediate problem for "our" Mr Hu then is that his arrest has made headlines around the world so that any back down from Beijing's amazing initial allegations would involve considerable loss of face - not something totalitarian regimes care for or handle very well...

Quote:

...The irony in all this is that Australia plays host to plenty of real Chinese spies undertaking a wide variety of "intelligence" and less pleasant activities and we don't seem to mind.

The Chinese embassy and consulates are crawling with spooks making life unpleasant for students and Falun Gong members while nicely-connected Chinese business people develop spectacularly generous "friendships" with our politicians apparently for no other reason than they like their company, if not their taste in suits. ...

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: spy vs spy Reply #1 - Jul 14^th, 2009 at 10:22am Is presence of Chinese spies in Australia part of our multi culture?
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: spy vs spy Reply #2 - Jul 14^th, 2009 at 11:02am Here are some links to the story. I wonder if Australian opposition or Australian government can make some political capital out of it?
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locutius Gold Member Offline You can't fight in here! It's the War Room Posts: 1817 Queensland Gender:	Re: spy vs spy Reply #3 - Jul 14^th, 2009 at 11:11am Biggest intellectual thieves on the planet.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: spy vs spy Reply #4 - Jul 14^th, 2009 at 11:23am locutius wrote on Jul 14^th, 2009 at 11:11am: Biggest intellectual thieves on the planet. That they are but now they need huge amount of raw materials for their sweat factories and to build up strategic resources for the time when they are ready to openly bid for world domination.
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Calanen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2241	Re: spy vs spy Reply #5 - Jul 14^th, 2009 at 5:31pm tallowood wrote on Jul 14^th, 2009 at 10:22am: Is presence of Chinese spies in Australia part of our multi culture? It's huge here, estimates of 1000s of operatives working. And no real counter to it either. Seen as low priority compared with terror I guess.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: spy vs spy Reply #6 - Jul 14^th, 2009 at 6:07pm tallowood wrote on Jul 14^th, 2009 at 10:17am: or is it Hu vs Hu? uh-hu...
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tallowood

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #7 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 10:42am

Quote:

Yesterday Prime Minister Kevin Rudd abandoned his "softly, softly" diplomatic approach to China over detained Rio Tinto executive Stern Hu, and started talking tough.
...
Using his strongest words since Mr Hu's arrest 11 days ago, Mr Rudd warned China that its economic interests were at stake over the affair....

Let's hope that something good will come out of this and crappy Chinese commie products will disappear from Australian shops.

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skippy Ex Member	Re: spy vs spy Reply #8 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 11:08am Quote: Let's hope that something good will come out of this and crappy Chinese commie products will disappear from Australian shops. While I tend to agree with you it reminds of the 60s and 70s when everybody said Japanese products were c rap, nowadays Japanese products are considered some of the best in the world.
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tallowood

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #9 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 11:24am

Quote:

Let's hope that something good will come out of this and crappy Chinese commie products will disappear from Australian shops.

While I tend to agree with you it reminds of the 60s and 70s when everybody said Japanese products were c rap, nowadays Japanese products are considered some of the best in the world.

That is true. First Japanese colour TVs in Australia were crap like Sony Trinitron KV1540 model but within 3 years Sony started make Trinitrons better then British Decca and nearly on the par with Dutch Philips, which, BTW, was assembled in Australia. Then Philips went to Taiwan and Sony became the best. But not any more because Sony manufacturing moved to mainland China.

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locutius

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #10 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 2:59pm

Problem is though there is a completely different psychology at work I think. For the Japanese I believe that there was far more than just money at stake, but also pride. The desire to match anywhere else in the world for quality and the pursuit of that goal. Japanese tools are another example. Beatiuful tools.

The Chinese don't seem to care. They even make sh!t for their own people. About 12 months ago the Chinese shot a heap of people because they were putting cardboard in food. Dim sims for the army were supposedly up to 70% cardboard. Babies were dying etc. So if they do that crap to their own people I can only guess (with experience) the sh!t they sell us.

I have considerable skill, training and experience with certain technologies that have more and more be monopolised by Chinese manufacture. To the layman the loss in quality is neither immediately visible or measurable. But underneath it is the shaving of a mm here and adding a cheaper more toxic ingredient here. It's 20-30% cheaper, looks the same but only last 1/4 the life of the German product you trusted and loved.

The thing is my field is quite narrow but I just know that the Chinese are repeating this philosophy everywhere. And the continued drop in quality of any given product can be cronologically alligned with the dismantling of international factories that are detooling and sacking it's skill base.

Investment in China is nothing more and nothing less than financing the economic woe of future generations in the West.

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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: spy vs spy Reply #11 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 4:31pm Australia could start a tit for tat diplomatic war... Spy for spy... But Chinese belligerence is only going to increase over the next ten years... Blatant economic and political blackmail will be the Chinese MO for the rest of the century.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: spy vs spy Reply #12 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 7:47am Quote: "This is not in the interest of Australia." Was that a threat in the subtext or are they just pleased to 'help us understand'? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/16/2628263.htm
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locutius Gold Member Offline You can't fight in here! It's the War Room Posts: 1817 Queensland Gender:	Re: spy vs spy Reply #13 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 8:41am NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 7:47am: Quote: "This is not in the interest of Australia." Was that a threat in the subtext or are they just pleased to 'help us understand'? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/16/2628263.htm Smile and take the barbarian's money.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #14 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 11:18am

locutius wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 8:41am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 7:47am:

Quote:

"This is not in the interest of Australia."

Was that a threat in the subtext or are they just pleased to 'help us understand'?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/16/2628263.htm

Smile and take the barbarian's money.

The Chinese aren't asking for our obedience, they consider it a given, without which they will damage us economically. Let's hope things don't get so bad that we envy the fate of Tibet.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: spy vs spy Reply #15 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:02pm Don't think it will be damaging for us if develop our own manufacturing industries.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: spy vs spy Reply #16 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:27pm tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:02pm: Don't think it will be damaging for us if develop our own manufacturing industries. Until they demand our governments break laws.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: spy vs spy Reply #17 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:35pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:27pm: tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:02pm: Don't think it will be damaging for us if develop our own manufacturing industries. Until they demand our governments break laws. They don't need to demand that it's happening already.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #18 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 3:08pm

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:35pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:27pm:

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:02pm:

Don't think it will be damaging for us if develop our own manufacturing industries.

Until they demand our governments break laws.

They don't need to demand that it's happening already.

I have a feeling that what the Chinese will soon expect of Australian governments, their ministers and officials will make Gordon Nuttall look like a paradigm of propriety.

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tallowood

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #19 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:39pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 3:08pm:

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:35pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:27pm:

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 12:02pm:

Don't think it will be damaging for us if develop our own manufacturing industries.

Until they demand our governments break laws.

They don't need to demand that it's happening already.

I have a feeling that what the Chinese will soon expect of Australian governments, their ministers and officials will make Gordon Nuttall look like a paradigm of propriety.

China may expect many things but it does not mean they goingto get them.

Quote:

Australia and China traded warnings on Thursday over the spy case, while the United States urged Beijing to ensure transparency and fair treatment for staff of foreign companies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSSYD38659620090717

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #20 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:55pm

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:39pm:

China may expect many things but it does not mean they goingto get them.

That won't be Beijing's story. If the Chinese don't get their way, I will bet they'll take some kind of punitive economic action to pressure our government(s). The Chinese authorities are belligerent and arrogant and don't appear to accept the limitations of governmental power in democratic states.

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tallowood

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #21 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 5:19pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:55pm:

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:39pm:

China may expect many things but it does not mean they goingto get them.

That won't be Beijing's story. If the Chinese don't get their way, I will bet they'll take some kind of punitive economic action to pressure our government(s). The Chinese authorities are belligerent and arrogant and don't appear to accept the limitations of governmental power in democratic states.

Well, they can stop buying our resources and selling to us their crappy products but it will be only good for Australia.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: spy vs spy Reply #22 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 5:21pm It also will be good for the environment. Ask muso if you don't believe me.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #23 - Jul 17^th, 2009 at 5:22pm

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 5:19pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:55pm:

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:39pm:

China may expect many things but it does not mean they goingto get them.

That won't be Beijing's story. If the Chinese don't get their way, I will bet they'll take some kind of punitive economic action to pressure our government(s). The Chinese authorities are belligerent and arrogant and don't appear to accept the limitations of governmental power in democratic states.

Well, they can stop buying our resources and selling to us their crappy products but it will be only good for Australia.

Not if they actively seek to block our access to other potential markets for our resources, such as India.

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tallowood

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #24 - Jul 19^th, 2009 at 10:32am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 5:22pm:

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 5:19pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:55pm:

tallowood wrote on Jul 17^th, 2009 at 4:39pm:

China may expect many things but it does not mean they goingto get them.

That won't be Beijing's story. If the Chinese don't get their way, I will bet they'll take some kind of punitive economic action to pressure our government(s). The Chinese authorities are belligerent and arrogant and don't appear to accept the limitations of governmental power in democratic states.

Well, they can stop buying our resources and selling to us their crappy products but it will be only good for Australia.

Not if they actively seek to block our access to other potential markets for our resources, such as India.

That would be 2 birds with one stone though I don't see how Chinese can control Indians. They have some territorial dispute going on for a while and Chinese were unable to force the issue. The can't even control Taiwan.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #25 - Jul 19^th, 2009 at 10:39am

tallowood wrote on Jul 19^th, 2009 at 10:32am:

That would be 2 birds with one stone though I don't see how Chinese can control Indians. They have some territorial dispute going on for a while and Chinese were unable to force the issue. The can't even control Taiwan.

That would depend on whether their need is great. Necessity being the mother of invention (or the father of resolve).

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: spy vs spy Reply #26 - Jul 24^th, 2009 at 10:20am http://news.ninemsn.com.au/entertainment/840572/four-flicks-cut-from-melbourne-film-fest
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oznationalist Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 170 Gender:	Re: spy vs spy Reply #27 - Aug 14^th, 2009 at 11:35am Yeswith a never ever to be released date, personaly I would opt to execute them but the oposition would force me to accept a lock em up in solitary for life comprimise. As for the one the Asians have who cares he is Asian anyway let them keep him.
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Coral Sea

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #28 - Aug 15^th, 2009 at 12:18am

oznationalist wrote on Aug 14^th, 2009 at 11:35am:

As for the one the Asians have who cares he is Asian anyway let them keep him.

Regardless of the fact that Asians should probably not be naturalized as Australian citizens, that Asian is an Australian citizen and thus the Australian government has something of an obligation to him and would lose face by failing to do its duty. One can reform immigration and citizenship in favor of the Anglo-Celtic Australian nation without abrogating existing responsibilities of the state.

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oznationalist

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Re: spy vs spy
Reply #29 - Aug 19^th, 2009 at 7:33pm

Coral Sea wrote on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 12:18am:

oznationalist wrote on Aug 14^th, 2009 at 11:35am:

As for the one the Asians have who cares he is Asian anyway let them keep him.

Regardless of the fact that Asians should probably not be naturalized as Australian citizens, that Asian is an Australian citizen and thus the Australian government has something of an obligation to him and would lose face by failing to do its duty. One can reform immigration and citizenship in favor of the Anglo-Celtic Australian nation without abrogating existing responsibilities of the state.

Perhaps so but what is good for one is bad for another if we are to keep such obligations while mainting what is best for us then we must not allow non White immigrants to have better rights than us, in fact our rights should always be greater than theirs, and this is not the case. Immigrants should not have a right to vote, they should pay a few percent higher tax, and they should not be permitted to own more than 49% of any business nor should they have the privellidge of investing in second real estate properties or any other means of profiteering from our people, what is bad for them is good for us anything less is a betrayl by our leaders upon our nation and it people.

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Poll
Question: Should Australia arrest chinese spies too?
Yes 4 (80.0%) No 0 (0.0%) Too dangerous 0 (0.0%) Green tea is too good 1 (20.0%) Total votes: 5 « Created by: tallowood on: Jul 14^th, 2009 at 10:22am »