Australian Politics Forum - Islam and the Veil

abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #45 - Sep 23^rd, 2009 at 11:37pm

Quote:

The first Koran dates to about 20 years after the death of Mohammed.

The first complete compiled manuscript, yes.

There's a few major differences though.

1) We know the entire family histories of every single person involved in the compilation process, you don't even know for sure who the authors of the NT are...

2) The Qur'an was compiled in the presence of hundreds of individuals who had committed it's entire contents to memory.

3) Those who compiled it were actual relatives/companions of Muhammad (pbuh), those who compiled/authored the NT never met Jesus (pbuh) and some supposed authors were in fact bitter enemies of his movement even many years after his time..

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Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #46 - Sep 24^th, 2009 at 12:32am

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2009 at 11:37pm:

Quote:

The first Koran dates to about 20 years after the death of Mohammed.

The first complete compiled manuscript, yes.

There's a few major differences though.

1) We know the entire family histories of every single person involved in the compilation process, you don't even know for sure who the authors of the NT are...

2) The Qur'an was compiled in the presence of hundreds of individuals who had committed it's entire contents to memory.

3) Those who compiled it were actual relatives/companions of Muhammad (pbuh), those who compiled/authored the NT never met Jesus (pbuh) and some supposed authors were in fact bitter enemies of his movement even many years after his time..

...according to Muslim tradition.

And we know what happens to those who question muslim tradition.

Uthman, A'isha, and Ibn Ka'b (among others) all insisted that much of the Koran had been lost.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #47 - Sep 24^th, 2009 at 10:19am

Soren wrote on Sep 24^th, 2009 at 12:32am:

And we know what happens to those [moslems] who question muslim tradition.

Uthman, A'isha, and Ibn Ka'b (among others) all insisted that much of the Koran had been lost.

Those persons, moslem, [who question established moslem tradition] are declared to be 'takir', apostates, 'the enemies of Allah', for their 'insult' to ISLAM/Allah, and are murdered,
....err,,, 'justly' killed, by good moslems for their heinous crime.
/sarc off

'Takfir' = = declaring former 'moslems' guilty of apostasy [and then they are deemed to be people who's blood can be 'lawfully' spilled].

Takfir - -
"....takfir or takfeer is the practice of declaring unbeliever or kafir (pl. kuffār), an individual or a group previously considered Muslim.
.....Takfir has also been used on Shias, whose beliefs are questioned by many mainstream Sunni Muslims. This has sometimes been used to legitimize physical attacks on such groups[3]. In the case of groups such as the GIA (as mentioned above), it has been used to legitimize attacks on any Muslim who is not actively fighting against their governments."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #48 - Sep 24^th, 2009 at 11:43am

soren,

Quote:

Uthman, A'isha, and Ibn Ka'b (among others) all insisted that much of the Koran had been lost.

Nonsense.

Nice attempt to divert away from the fact though that you don't even know for sure who the authors of your various books are. How on earth you could entrust your eternal salvation or damnation to such vagueness is beyond me.

Yadda,

Quote:

are declared to be 'tak[f]ir'

That doesn't make a lot of sense. As you noted.. 'Takfir' = = declaring former 'moslems' guilty of apostasy.. so effectively your attempt to use the word 'takfir' translates as: "are declared to be declaring 'moslems' guilty of apostasy". I don't think that's what you meant Grin

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Yadda

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #49 - Sep 24^th, 2009 at 1:04pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 24^th, 2009 at 11:43am:

Yadda,

Quote:

are declared to be 'tak[f]ir'

That doesn't make a lot of sense. As you noted.. 'Takfir' = = declaring former 'moslems' guilty of apostasy.. so effectively your attempt to use the word 'takfir' translates as: "are declared to be declaring 'moslems' guilty of apostasy". I don't think that's what you meant
Grin

abu,

No?

But the term, an ISLAMIC term, indeed, does confirm, that all good moslems are religious bigots.

I'll just repeat that truth again, for clarity shall i? Shocked

All good moslems, are religious bigots.

The murder of moslems who wanted to reform ISLAM, has been consistent, throughout ISLAM's history.

Undeniable. - - but, i know you will abu. Grin

The view of good moslems is of course, that ISLAM requires no reform, because ISLAM is already Allah's perfect 'way'.

The only decent 'moslems', from the perspective of non-moslems, such as myself, is a moslem apostate, who recognises ISLAM faults, and wishes to expose them.

Where can we find a source of TRUTHFUL information about ISLAM [its aims and methods]?

I would suggest one source could be EX-moslems.

EX-moslems are people who know ISLAM intimately.

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Whereas, all good moslems, are religious bigots,

Google,

muslim reformers killed

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslim+reformers+killed&btnG=Search&meta...
15,300,000 hits

Google,

imam reformers threatened

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=imam+reformers+threatened&btnG=Search&me...
21,500,000 hits

I'll just have to say it once more abu. Tongue

All good moslems, are religious bigots.

ISLAMIC bigotry, and intolerance???

Just open a Koran, and start reading!...

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;........."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/...

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« Last Edit: Sep 24^th, 2009 at 1:53pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #50 - Sep 24^th, 2009 at 2:53pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 24^th, 2009 at 11:43am:

soren,

[quote]Uthman, A'isha, and Ibn Ka'b (among others) all insisted that much of the Koran had been lost.

Nonsense. [/quote

It is not nonsense at all. That the Koran has been with god from all eyternity is a myth of the kind only illiterates could come up with.
It is in reality an odd collection of scraps of oral tradition of utterances made over years, then gathered decades after Mohammed's death because of fear of their complete loss.

Quote:

Nice attempt to divert away from the fact though that you don't even know for sure who the authors of your various books are. How on earth you could entrust your eternal salvation or damnation to such vagueness is beyond me.

A great degree of internal coherence counts for a lot more and the Bible has that.
Coherence is always better than declaring a collection of disjointed platitudes that is the Koran to be the unchanged word of god (in Arabic) from eternity. Threatening death to all who question this does not make it any more coherent or believable. If anything, it is a clear signal of its human origins.

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« Last Edit: Sep 24^th, 2009 at 4:45pm by Soren »

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Yadda

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #51 - Sep 24^th, 2009 at 3:31pm

Soren wrote on Sep 24^th, 2009 at 2:53pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 24^th, 2009 at 11:43am:

soren,

[quote]Nice attempt to divert away from the fact though that you don't even know for sure who the authors of your various books are. How on earth you could entrust your eternal salvation or damnation to such vagueness is beyond me.

A great degree of internal coherence counts for a lot more and the Bible has that.

Coherence is always better than declaring the collection of disjointed platitudes the unchanged word of god (in Arabic) from eternity. Threatening death to all who question this does not make it any more coherent or believable. If anything, it is a clear signal of its human origins.

Dictionary,
coherent = = (of an argument or theory) logical and consistent. able to speak clearly and logically.

Q.
What is the underlying, consistent and coherent message expressed throughout the OT Bible,
....and which is expressed in many different books of the bible?

A.
That mankind is a lost soul in the world, destined to wander the world, until he is redeemed by his creator, God.

Within the Bible, God's people, Israel, are the archetype, for man's 'situation' in the world.
...initially cast off by God, but ultimately to be redeemed, by God.

Isaiah 54:5
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Bible verses declaring the scattering, and then God's eventual, and certain, redemption of 'Israel', his people,

Jeremiah 23:5-8
Jeremiah 32:37-42
Ezekiel 11:14-17
Deuteronomy 30:1-7

Those Bible verses cited here,

The one thing worse than denying the Gaza report

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1253240308/6#6

What is the consistent and coherent message expressed throughout the Koran?

'Worship Allah, become a moslem, or we [good moslems] will kill, or enslave you.'

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #52 - Oct 26^th, 2009 at 9:02pm

The lastest in the line of hijabis wanting to be funky hairdressers and muslims wanting to be cocktail waitresses. Now a burkha-wearing pinhead wants to be able to go to a secular coeducational college in her burkha. Upset when told 'no'.

Muslim student, 18, banned from college because she refuses to remove her burkha
By Liz Hull
24th October 2009

'It is my choice to wear the veil': Shawana Bilqes refused to remove her cover-all Islamic robes at college

A Muslim student has been banned from enrolling at a college because she refused to remove her burkha.
Shawana Bilqes, 18, wanted to wear the garment - which covers her body and face, leaving only her eyes visible - during lessons.
But staff at Burnley College refused to enrol her, claiming the burkha was a barrier to 'safety and communication'.
In a strongly worded statement, the college said 'unimpeded' face to face contact between teachers and students was vital.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222511/Muslim-student-18-banned-college-refuses-remove-burka.html#ixzz0V2Rq8kOB

Don't forget the comments (480 of them!!!)

Interestingly, there is no reflex backing down by the college.

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Shawana_Bilqes.jpg (27 KB | 65 )

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #53 - Oct 27^th, 2009 at 10:09am

That's fair enough, any institution should be allowed to implement the regulations it thinks it requires to maintain the safety of it's environs. The communication bit is just garbage though. Most Niqabis are very adept communicators, in fact it seems to give them an extra capacity to communicate, from what I'm told from those who actually have real life explains with Niqabis, rather than just from the media.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41730 Gender:	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #54 - Oct 27^th, 2009 at 10:34am wearing a black tent makes you a better communicatior same as following a dead paedophile's arbitrary rules gives you 77 virgins. you're getting more idiotic by the week abu
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Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #55 - Oct 28^th, 2009 at 7:19pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 27^th, 2009 at 10:09am:

That's fair enough, any institution should be allowed to implement the regulations it thinks it requires to maintain the safety of it's environs. The communication bit is just garbage though. Most Niqabis are very adept communicators, in fact it seems to give them an extra capacity to communicate, from what I'm told from those who actually have real life explains with Niqabis, rather than just from the media.

I see what you mean about the extra capacity to communicate and so forth.

http://adsoftheworld.com/media/tv/liaison_dangereuse_sexiness_for_everyone

Mark Steyn is a lot less understanding, the islamophobe:

Fatima's Secret [Mark Steyn]

This German lingerie ad (warning: contains soft-focus footage of the female form in all its pulchritude — don't stampede all at once) has a cool superficial smartness with what is intended to be an O. Henry switcheroo at the tail.

I think it's more like wishful thinking. For one thing, if the actress were truly a believer as opposed to a jobbing actress, taking this underdressed gig would earn her an honor killing. Enjoy the multiculti sophisticated jests while you can, lads.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #56 - Oct 30^th, 2009 at 1:27pm

repressive sexist islam rears its revolting totalitarian head

Quote:

RIYADH: A Saudi court has sentenced a journalist to 60 lashes after she was charged with involvement in a TV show in which a Saudi man talked about sex.

Rozanna al-Yami, 22, is believed to be the first Saudi female journalist to be given such a punishment, but there were conflicting accounts yesterday about how the court issued its verdict.

Yami, who worked as a co-ordinator for the program but has denied working on the sex-show episode, said it was her understanding that the judge at the court in the western city of Jeddah dropped the charges against her on Saturday. They included involvement in the preparation of the show and advertising the segment on the internet. But she said he still handed down the lashing sentence "as a deterrence".

"I am too frustrated and upset to appeal the sentence," she said.

Yami refused to provide contact details for her lawyer to ask about the legal proceedings, including the basis in Islamic law for the punishment and whether the charges were really dropped.

Sulaiman al-Jumeii, the lawyer for the man who appeared in the show, said such "physical punishment is not an indication of innocence or a drop of charges".

"If the judge had dropped the charges, then why did he give her the 60 lashes?" he added.

Abdul-Rahman al-Hazza, spokesman of the Ministry of Culture and Information, said he had no details of the sentencing and could not comment on it.

In the program, which aired in July on the Lebanese LBC satellite channel, the man, Mazen Abdul-Jawad, appears to describe an active sex life and shows sex toys that were blurred by the station. The same court sentenced Abdul-Jawad this month to five years in jail and 1000 lashes.

Mr Jumeii maintains his client was duped by the TV station and was unaware in many cases he was being recorded.

On Saturday, he said that not trying Yami before a court specialised in media matters at the Ministry of Culture and Information was a violation of Saudi law. "It is a precedent to try a journalist before a summary court for an issue that concerns the nature of his job," he said.

The case has scandalised this ultra-conservative country, where public talk about sex is taboo and the sexes are strictly segregated. The government moved swiftly in the wake of the case, shutting down LBC's two offices in the kingdom and arresting Abdul-Jawad, who works for the national airline.

Three other men who appeared on the show, Bold Red Line, were convicted of discussing sex publicly and sentenced to two years' imprisonment and 300 lashes each.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26258171-15084,00.html

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Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #57 - Nov 6^th, 2009 at 2:12pm

TV presenter covered from head to toe
Fatima Sidiya | Arab News

JEDDAH: A new TV show that discusses issues concerning teenage girls and female university students was recently broadcast with Saudi presenters dressed in black from head to toe.

The show — named Asrar Al-Banat (The Secrets of Girls) — is broadcast on Awtan TV, a Saudi religious channel that was first aired in August 2008 and has women broadcasters who are covered in the all-enveloping abaya and niqab.

They must have faces suitable only for radio. Wink

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #58 - Nov 6^th, 2009 at 4:08pm Did you see the niqabi in the video in the Islamic forum soren? Doesn't look like she had too much problem communicating....
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #59 - Nov 6^th, 2009 at 7:35pm abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2009 at 4:08pm: Did you see the niqabi in the video in the Islamic forum soren? Doesn't look like she had too much problem communicating.... She was asking for a duck and some money, wasn't she? I am not posting on the Islam forum - I asked you to bar me, remember?
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