Australian Politics Forum - Islam and the Veil

Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #15 - Sep 19^th, 2009 at 10:52am

And now this....

Quote:

Jedi ejected from Tesco for wearing hood
The founder of the Star Wars-inspired Jedi faith has accused Tesco of religious discrimination after he was banned from wearing a hood in one of its stores.
Daniel Jones, 23, who created the International Church of Jediism, claims he was “victimised over his beliefs” by staff at the supermarket in Bangor, North Wales.
Mr Jones, also known by his Jedi name Morda Hehol, told The Sun: "I told them it was a requirement of my religion but they just sniggered and ordered me to leave. I walked past a Muslim lady in a veil. Surely the same rules should apply to everyone."

Allow exceptionalism for one "community" and the same stupid argument will be used by other "communities". Putting it the other way around - the Jedi guy has as much claim to his "faith based" exceptionalism in a Tesco as the Musulmans. The former should return to Planet Zorg, the latter to Planet Mo. If that is not possible, then accept the rules and customs of where they are now. But such imple inclusivness is the most challenging thing, the real tumbling block for those whose only raison d'etre IS apartness.

Which one is more laughable? I can't decide.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #16 - Sep 19^th, 2009 at 6:24pm Quote: the Jedi guy has as much claim to his "faith based" exceptionalism in a Tesco as the Musulmans Or as much right as a Christian woman to her "faith based" exceptionalism of wearing a bra in PNG...
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Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #17 - Sep 19^th, 2009 at 11:26pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 19^th, 2009 at 6:24pm:

Quote:

the Jedi guy has as much claim to his "faith based" exceptionalism in a Tesco as the Musulmans

Or as much right as a Christian woman to her "faith based" exceptionalism of wearing a bra in PNG...

So a bra is now an expression of Christian faith? You'd better check your wife and make sure she doesn't secretly wear such covert expressions of polytheism.

DO they teach you this in Muslim argument school, how to always come up with a completely wacky and spurious angle, or are you just a talented autodidact? You remind me of Martini from One flew over the cocoo's nest: you are passing the ball to people only you can see.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #18 - Sep 19^th, 2009 at 11:59pm

Quote:

So a bra is now an expression of Christian faith?

As much an expression of Christian faith as hair covering is for Muslim women.

Quote:

DO they teach you this in Muslim argument school

No it's just simple logic. Hair covering is nothing more than the level of public decency that Islam requires. Just like I'm sure breast covering is part of public decency in Christianity (well it used to be anyway, today who knows...). The only reason you consider it anything special is because it's not the norm here, just like a Christian going to live in PNG, covvering her breasts would stand out and not be the norm. Does that mean she would be doing it out of some kind of religious symbolism?? Or would she just be dressing how she feels comfortable dressing?? exposing only that which she considers appropriate? It's not that hard to comprehend, even for someone as daft and disingenous as yourself soren.

What is ridiculous is the nonsensical claim that women covering their hair is some kind of "religious symbolism" or "faith based exceptionalism", as if a women covers her body just to identify with being an Islamic fundamentalist. Such arguments are simple minded at best.

There is no concept whatsoever of religious symbolism in Islam at all. That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #19 - Sep 20^th, 2009 at 11:01am

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 19^th, 2009 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

So a bra is now an expression of Christian faith?

As much an expression of Christian faith as hair covering is for Muslim women.

Quote:

DO they teach you this in Muslim argument school

No it's just simple logic. Hair covering is nothing more than the level of public decency that Islam requires
. Just like I'm sure breast covering is part of public decency in Christianity (well it used to be anyway, today who knows...). The only reason you consider it anything special is because it's not the norm here, just like a Christian going to live in PNG, covvering her breasts would stand out and not be the norm. Does that mean she would be doing it out of some kind of religious symbolism?? Or would she just be dressing how she feels comfortable dressing?? exposing only that which she considers appropriate? It's not that hard to comprehend, even for someone as daft and disingenous as yourself soren.

What is ridiculous is the nonsensical claim that women covering their hair is some kind of "religious symbolism" or "faith based exceptionalism", as if a women covers her body just to identify with being an Islamic fundamentalist. Such arguments are simple minded at best.

With ISLAM, its 'laws' and religion are essentially one and the same paradigm.

ISLAM is, a system of laws, and with their own corresponding punishments.

ISLAM is, a political system, of laws [witness, the recent events in Iran, over the stolen election result].

We don't need ISLAM's laws here abu [apartheid laws which make moslems 'special', with 'special' rights], we already have our own laws.

Quote:

".....an approach to law which simply said there's one law for everybody......I think that's a bit of a danger."

7 February 2008
Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
The Archbishop of Canterbury says.....Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".
.....Dr Williams said an approach to law which simply said "there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that's a bit of a danger".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019843.php

Personally, i believe that Dr Williams should do the moral thing, renounce his Christian faith, and convert to ISLAM.

abu,

I would argue, that when Christians are treated equally [in law] with moslems, in moslem jurisdictions, and, when Christians [and those of other faiths] can express their faith, openly, in countries such as Saudi Arabia, then moslems in countries like Australia would have the right to bi tch about 'persecution', and 'insults' against ISLAM.

But you abu, and all moslems, are merely RAGING HYPOCRITES
, who's complaints we should dismiss with contempt!

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

i Quote:

There is no concept whatsoever of religious symbolism in Islam at all.
That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons.

LOL!

abu,

And you accuse soren, of being disingenuous !!!

The Koran [itself], the call to prayer [from the mosque], the clothing laws, the bismillah, Sharia, THE BLACK STONE, are all icons of religious symbolism, within ISLAM.

http://www.sfjamaat.org/sf/images/bismillah24.gif
"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful"

http://www.sunna.info/souwar/data/media/2/mecca-27.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone2.jpg

This moslem is kissing [venerating], the Black Stone.

ISLAM, the Koran, and 666
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1249974580/0#0

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« Last Edit: Sep 20^th, 2009 at 11:36am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #20 - Sep 20^th, 2009 at 7:00pm abu_rashid wrote on Sep 19^th, 2009 at 11:59pm: There is no concept whatsoever of religious symbolism in Islam at all. That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons. Really??!?
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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #21 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 1:16am

Quote:

The Koran [itself], the call to prayer [from the mosque], the clothing laws, the bismillah, Sharia, THE BLACK STONE, are all icons of religious symbolism, within ISLAM.

Come on Yadda you've gotta be kidding.

You post a picture of the words "bismillah ir-rahman ir-raheem and because it's written in Arabic and looks a little fancy it means it's a "religious symbol"?

Call to prayer is "religious symbolism" also?? How about ringing church bells?

Clothing laws are not religious symbolism, as I stated, anymore than Christian women covering what they cover is religious symbolism. It's just plain and simple public decency. Islam requires more than Christianity, agreed... but that doesn't make it religious symbolism at all. For instance a Muslim woman may cover her hair in any fashion she so chose, as long as it covered the required areas. There's no requirement for it to adhere to any fashion etc. It is the exact same as her covering her arms, legs, stomach, back etc. The only difference is women in the West NO LONGER cover their hair, so you think it's an Islamic symbolism. It's just ridiculous really. The whole issue indicates you are just detached from any logical thought process whatsoever..

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Yadda

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #22 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 9:36am

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 21^st, 2009 at 1:16am:

Quote:

The Koran [itself], the call to prayer [from the mosque], the clothing laws, the bismillah, Sharia, THE BLACK STONE, are all icons of religious symbolism, within ISLAM.

Come on Yadda you've gotta be kidding.

You post a picture of the words "bismillah ir-rahman ir-raheem and because it's written in Arabic and looks a little fancy it means it's a "religious symbol"?

Call to prayer is "religious symbolism" also?? How about ringing church bells?

Church bells, "religious symbolism"?

Yes.

And you Christians and non-moslems should be told, that moslems regard the ringing of bells, as coming from a SATANIC influence.

Google,
muslims ringing bells satanic
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslims+ringing+bells+satanic&btnG=Searc...i

abu,

Isn't the spirit of the moslems god, Allah, being invoked on these headbands [below]???

And to what end, does this religious symbolism play?

"In the name of Allah, peace on earth, and goodwill to all men." ???

/sarc off

All of these headbands declare allegiance to Allah
, or to Allah's
way, or to Allah's
cause.

http://www.caerdroia.org/blog/archives/rpglady.jpg
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/images_4/palestine/young_woman.jpe
http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/images_4/palestine/young_woman.jpe
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

http://semiskimmed.net/pix/jihad-nursery3.jpg
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/12/29/sanaa_29dec08.jpg
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

https://www.thejerusalemgiftshop.com/israelnews/images/stories/conflict/hamas/hamas-suicide-terrorists-kid.jpg
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

http://tharwacommunity.typepad.com/tharwa_commentary/images/hamas_suicide_bombers.jpg
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/hamas%20suicide%20bombers%20march.jpg
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0704/a_hamas_war0402.jpg
"...That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons."

abu said,
Quote:

There is no concept whatsoever of religious symbolism in Islam at all. That's why Islam is rather devoid of any kind of symbols or icons.

iFor more on ISLAM and religious symbolism, particularly of the religious symbolism present upon armbands and headbands, see also.....

YOUTUBE
Walid Shoebat - Mark of the Beast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtquNNEO7Fw

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41728 Gender:	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #23 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 10:28am
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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #24 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 10:39am

Yadda you've gone completely off track here. The topic was about Muslim women wearing clothes, and this being misconstrued as religious symbolism, merely because the level of public decency differs between Muslim and Christian societies.

Again I will ask, would a Christian woman living in PNG, who covers her breasts (which I assume most practising Christian women would feel it's compuslory to do) be displaying some kind of religious symbolism??? This is the _exact_ same situation, just relating to a different area of the body.

Quote:

All of these headbands declare allegiance to Allah , or to Allah's way, or to Allah's cause.

They do, but I still don't see their relationship to a woman covering parts of her anatomy deemed to be nakedness. Please stick with the issue, instead of diverging off on your usual hair brained tangents.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #25 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 10:44am

sprint, as discussed when that symbol (crescent star) was first chosen for the Islamic forum (i think you were involved in the discussion actually). That symbol, although it's come to be associated with Islam really does not have it's basis in Islam at all, and is mostly used today by Westerners to symbolise Islam. It was an ancient Turkish symbol that predates Islam. It appears on the flags of some Muslim countries today, mostly those which were former Ottoman provinces, or those who felt an affinity with the Ottoman Caliphate.

And as stated to Yadda that's not even the topic here. The topic is mere clothing being wrongly claimed to be a "religious symbol".

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41728 Gender:	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #26 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 10:49am is that the same symbol that you use in your avatar???
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #27 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 11:56am Quote: is that the same symbol that you use in your avatar??? Yes, but still what does it have to do with a woman's covering her nakedness?? I know you often like to mix in unrelated topics to divert from the issue, but that's getting a little ridiculous.
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Soren

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Re: Islam and the Veil
Reply #28 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 9:46pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 21^st, 2009 at 10:39am:

Yadda you've gone completely off track here. The topic was about Muslim women wearing clothes, and this being misconstrued as religious symbolism, merely because the level of public decency differs between Muslim and Christian societies.

Again I will ask, would a Christian woman living in PNG, who covers her breasts (which I assume most practising Christian women would feel it's compuslory to do) be displaying some kind of religious symbolism??? This is the _exact_ same situation, just relating to a different area of the body.

Quote:

All of these headbands declare allegiance to Allah , or to Allah's way, or to Allah's cause.

They do, but I still don't see their relationship to a woman covering parts of her anatomy deemed to be nakedness. Please stick with the issue, instead of diverging off on your usual hair brained tangents.

Whatever you call the garment that covers your womens faces - that is an exclusively Islamic garment. It is an inhuman and stupid garment, whether it is worn in Araby or Australia. It has no place anywhere outside fancy dress parties. Wearing it non-ironically is barbaric. And only muslim wear it non-irionically. Whoever makes his women wear it is a barbarous, contemptible prick. Any woman who wears it voluntarily (and not out of fear) is also a contemptible bint. The prick and the bint are motivated exclusivly by Islam. Nothing else. That makes that garment, whatever you call it, an Islamic garment.

I hope this clarifies the issue for you.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41728 Gender:	Re: Islam and the Veil Reply #29 - Sep 21^st, 2009 at 10:21pm soren - what, you mean that black tent? wonder what blind retard invented that one?
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