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Like it or leave? (Read 3772 times)
tallowood
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #15 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:30pm
 
Talking about morality .. Jesus was not an atheist but stalin was.  Wink

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #16 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:50pm
 
Yadda wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:17pm:
locutius wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:54am:
Didn't someone say "Forgive them for they know not what they do." ?





Yes, Jesus said that.

Jesus also said,

Luke 17:3
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

What you seem to be implying here, but don't quite have the guts to say it, is that your holy book commands if the trespasser doesn't repent then you can take to him, say, with an axe and hack him to death. It's only if he repents that he is worthy of forgiveness.
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Grendel
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #17 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:55pm
 
I hardly think rebuking involves an axe do you?Jesus said Turn the other cheek, He also said to forgive 7 times 70 etc, etc, etc..  I don't think he meant after the 490th time whack someone with an axe.

Now can we leave the religion and get back to secular topical debate.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #18 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 1:08pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:55pm:
I hardly think rebuking involves an axe do you?Jesus said Turn the other cheek, He also said to forgive 7 times 70 etc, etc, etc..  I don't think he meant after the 490th time whack someone with an axe.

Have to ask a theist about that. Seems we're regaled with all these little metaphors about offending trees being cut down with an axe and deadwood being gathered up and thrown into fires...
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Yadda
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #19 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 1:41pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 12:50pm:
What you seem to be implying here, but don't quite have the guts to say it, is that your holy book commands if the trespasser doesn't repent then you can take to him, say, with an axe and hack him to death
. It's only if he repents that he is worthy of forgiveness.




No.

And i'm quite happy to let the angels be the 'reapers'.



Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.






"....It's only if he repents that he is worthy of forgiveness."


helian,

If a criminal keeps re-offending, should we [society] keep forgiving him?

Scenario.....

A murderer [who society has forgiven, his crime of murder].

Perchance, you have three daughters, and now, this same criminal murders one of your daughters.

Could you find it in your un-Christian heart, to forgive him?

And should you?

And if you [and society] did forgive him, and then on his release, he murdered your two remaining daughters?

Do you again find the 'tolerance', to again forgive him, of his 'sin'?

How many times did Jesus say, we must forgive those who sin against us???






Q.
But what about the victims?

Don't the INNOCENT have the right to be protected from such violence?

And if "Yes", how would that be best achieved - BEFORE THE FACT [of criminal violence]?





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #20 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:21pm
 
Yadda wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 1:41pm:
No.

And i'm quite happy to let the angels be the 'reapers'.

Yes, Christians like us to believe that retribution is not for them... Until they gain power.

Yadda wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 1:41pm:
"....It's only if he repents that he is worthy of forgiveness."


helian,

If a criminal keeps re-offending, should we [society] keep forgiving him?

Scenario.....

A murderer [who society has forgiven, his crime of murder].

Perchance, you have three daughters, and now, this same criminal murders one of your daughters.

Could you find it in your un-Christian heart, to forgive him?

And should you?

And if you [and society] did forgive him, and then on his release, he murdered your two remaining daughters?

Do you again find the 'tolerance', to again forgive him, of his 'sin'?

How many times did Jesus say, we must forgive those who sin against us???

Q.
But what about the victims?

Don't the INNOCENT have the right to be protected from such violence?

And if "Yes", how would that be best achieved - BEFORE THE FACT [of criminal violence]?

Those questions for even a non-Christian (let alone a non-theist) are easy to answer. No sympathy for them. But I'm not the one who is constrained by the command to love his enemies. You are.

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tallowood
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #21 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:38pm
 
Atheists like us to believe that they are creatures of reason but somehow I don't believe that mass murderers such as Stalin were reasonable.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #22 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:52pm
 
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:38pm:
Atheists like us to believe that they are creatures of reason but somehow I don't believe that mass murderers such as Stalin were reasonable.


Which explains why you are keen to legitimise the term 'atheist'.
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Yadda
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #23 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:56pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:21pm:
Those questions for even a non-Christian (let alone a non-theist) are easy to answer. No sympathy for them.
But I'm not the one who is constrained by the command to love his enemies. You are.





Would i suffer criminal violence, ...meekly?

Probably not.

Will my God forgive me, if i spilled blood?

I would guess, with some confidence, that that, would depend upon my motives, for doing so.






Romans 12:17
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18  If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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tallowood
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #24 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 3:30pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:52pm:
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:38pm:
Atheists like us to believe that they are creatures of reason but somehow I don't believe that mass murderers such as Stalin were reasonable.


Which explains why you are keen to legitimise the term 'atheist'.


I didn't realise that atheists are illegitimate bastards on top of being murderers. Thank you  for your insider insight, hellian.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #25 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 3:43pm
 
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 3:30pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:52pm:
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:38pm:
Atheists like us to believe that they are creatures of reason but somehow I don't believe that mass murderers such as Stalin were reasonable.


Which explains why you are keen to legitimise the term 'atheist'.


I didn't realise that atheists are illegitimate bastards on top of being murderers.

Right on cue...
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tallowood
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #26 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 3:48pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 3:43pm:
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 3:30pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:52pm:
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:38pm:
Atheists like us to believe that they are creatures of reason but somehow I don't believe that mass murderers such as Stalin were reasonable.


Which explains why you are keen to legitimise the term 'atheist'.


I didn't realise that atheists are illegitimate bastards on top of being murderers.

Right on cue...



Yes, you are well trained. Smiley

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Reason
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #27 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:12pm
 
The interesting thing for me here is that whilst on the face of it, Facebook's action have stymied the free speech of the members of the group, are they entitled to?  It's their site after all. 

If these same people all rallied on the street and held an anti-Islam demonstration, no one would have the right to shut them up.  But using someone's propietary software to do the same thing is, I suspect a different matter.

I guess I'm saying, in principle I don't agree with Facebook's actions here but can't complain, it's their site.  I wonder what other "hate group" sites have been axed?  Anti-homosexuals?  Anti-religion?  Anti-Matt Johns?  Does anyone have any other examples?
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Calanen
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #28 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:28pm
 
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 2:38pm:
Atheists like us to believe that they are creatures of reason but somehow I don't believe that mass murderers such as Stalin were reasonable.



That's some fallacious reasoning there.

I saw a tiger when I was drunk, therefore, drinking conjures tigers.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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mozzaok
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Re: Like it or leave?
Reply #29 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:36pm
 
We have tried to explain the concept to Tallo before Calanen, but he is so impressed with his brilliant deuctive reasoning, that he doesn't care that it is fallacious.

The fact that Stalin's Atheism was not a determining factor in his megalomanic actions, somehow fails to penetrate Tallo's consciousness.

The examples given him of theists, performing acts of brutality, whilst openly stating they do so for the glory of their god, to show the difference, did not register with his grey matter either.

He refuses to get it, although how someone can be so determinedly obtuse, is beyond me.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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