Australian Politics Forum - Churches oppose Islamic school

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #90 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:25pm

Calanen wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:21pm:

All over muslim village, they are praising Tablighi Jamaat for bringing this school to camden - are the muslims their liars? Islamophobes? Rumour mongers? Or maybe they just know more than we do.

Well, if you're to be believed, counsellor, they're liars and rumour mongers... You're going with their word for it this time?

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40955 Gender:	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #91 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:57pm helian - feel free to have a look at muslim village. I remember when muslims there were offering up prayers for the wannebe terrorists in melbourne.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #92 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 4:03pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:

helian - feel free to have a look at muslim village.
I remember when muslims there were offering up prayers for the wannebe terrorists in melbourne.

How is that shocking? Given the redneck shyte I've read on nearly every politics forum I've been to including ozpolitic.

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locutius

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #93 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 4:24pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 4:03pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:

helian - feel free to have a look at muslim village.
I remember when muslims there were offering up prayers for the wannebe terrorists in melbourne.

How is that shocking? Given the redneck shyte I've read on nearly every politics forum I've been to including ozpolitic.

Well done Sprint, I got sucked into replying here, then I realized this had turned into something from the Islam Board. A place I have probably only frequented twice in the last 4 months or so.

Even though I disagreed with much that Abu said and I don't share the depth of Mantra's view of Abu's sincerity or loss, it was much more interesting (a) with Abu around and (b) before people forgot the difference between passionate debate and just stupid aggression that hijacked every discussion.

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Calanen

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #94 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 6:08pm

locutius wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 4:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 4:03pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:

helian - feel free to have a look at muslim village.
I remember when muslims there were offering up prayers for the wannebe terrorists in melbourne.

How is that shocking? Given the redneck shyte I've read on nearly every politics forum I've been to including ozpolitic.

Well done Sprint, I got sucked into replying here, then I realized this had turned into something from the Islam Board. A place I have probably only frequented twice in the last 4 months or so.

Even though I disagreed with much that Abu said and I don't share the depth of Mantra's view of Abu's sincerity or loss, it was much more interesting (a) with Abu around and (b) before people forgot the difference between passionate debate and just stupid aggression that hijacked every discussion.

It's odd that this board is not more popular. People are always wanting to mouth off on the reply boards on newspaper sites.

I think its the poo brown colour scheme that turns people off. Needs to be blue and white. Flick the switch maestro.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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tallowood

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #95 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 8:16pm

locutius wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 4:24pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 4:03pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:

helian - feel free to have a look at muslim village.
I remember when muslims there were offering up prayers for the wannebe terrorists in melbourne.

How is that shocking? Given the redneck shyte I've read on nearly every politics forum I've been to including ozpolitic.

Well done Sprint, I got sucked into replying here, then I realized this had turned into something from the Islam Board. A place I have probably only frequented twice in the last 4 months or so.

Even though I disagreed with much that Abu said and I don't share the depth of Mantra's view of Abu's sincerity or loss, it was much more interesting (a) with Abu around and (b) before people forgot the difference between passionate debate and just stupid aggression that hijacked every discussion.

abu made bad mistake using unfair and unjust moderation on his board biasing towards his muslim brothers forgetting that here is not muslim country.

Anyway let's get back to topic and compaire how opposing is done here in Australia "Churches oppose Islamic school" and there in muslim country
Quote:

Last Wednesday’s anti-Christian violence in Karachi left 15 people wounded and resulted in the houses of 15 Christian families being set on fire, putting Christians on alert as the Taliban increases its influence in Pakistan.
...
Fr. Mario Rodriguez, the Karachi-based Director of the Pontifical Mission Societies of Pakistan, told Fides news agency that several Taliban members were caught spraying offensive and intimidating messages on the walls of a church. The vandals were stopped by a group of Christians, but they returned with over 40 armed soldiers who began firing on the gathered Christians. Fifteen were wounded, one man seriously.

The mob then began to sack the nearby houses of 15 Christian families, later setting them on fire.

Talibanization

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ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים

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locutius Gold Member Offline You can't fight in here! It's the War Room Posts: 1817 Queensland Gender:	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #96 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 10:01am Of course there is no denying, it's a good thing that the Christian churches have modifidied their behaviour over the past few centuries. Unfortunately not before passing on their inspirational conversion via flame technique to many many cultures. Well Done!!
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mantra

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #97 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 10:08am

Quote:

It's odd that this board is not more popular. People are always wanting to mouth off on the reply boards on newspaper sites.

I think its the poo brown colour scheme that turns people off. Needs to be blue and white. Flick the switch maestro.

A colour change was suggested a while back. FD likes this colour - it grows on you I suppose, but a different colour could attract more people.

Quote:

Even though I disagreed with much that Abu said and I don't share the depth of Mantra's view of Abu's sincerity or loss, it was much more interesting (a) with Abu around and (b) before people forgot the difference between passionate debate and just stupid aggression that hijacked every discussion

Yes Locutius - Abu did attract a lot of people and I agree with you - aggression did hijack every discussion. I found Abu reasonable and articulate and he had every right to defend his beliefs without being denigrated to the extent he was.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #98 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 10:26am

mantra wrote on Apr 29^th, 2009 at 10:08am:

Quote:

It's odd that this board is not more popular. People are always wanting to mouth off on the reply boards on newspaper sites.

I think its the poo brown colour scheme that turns people off. Needs to be blue and white. Flick the switch maestro.

A colour change was suggested a while back. FD likes this colour - it grows on you I suppose, but a different colour could attract more people.

You can change the colour scheme once a member, it that helps. Doesn't help the guests, of course. Maybe we could have a vote on it?

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freediver

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #99 - Apr 30^th, 2009 at 9:39pm

Quote:

A skill sine qua non shared by every politician.

So what's you're point Helian? You seem to appreciate the political nature of the threat of Islam, yet you seem to insist that we refrain from going after it the same way we do politicians. No-one would suggest we refrain from criticising Pauline Hanson because she means well, or in case her followers turn to someone even more extreme. Why do you suggest this for Islam?

Quote:

It's easy to propose what should be done in general terms, but the problem of defining the logistics of implementation paraphrases the fable of The Mice in Council and their plan to bell the cat of which the moral of the fable is - It is easy to propose impossible remedies.

What is it about my remedy that is impossible? Are you suggesting that we simply not try to keep people out of Australia who are dedicated to destroying it, merely because it's a bit difficult? You are the one with the impossible remedy, not me.

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It can currently take years to process an application for immigration. During that time I imagine exhaustive background checks are being completed.

I am not merely suggesting we do background checks.

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How would you implement your proposal such that it would be a more effective defence against 'political undesirables'?

I would add an interrogation or two on this issue to the interview process, or make it a fundamental part of it. I'm not sure why you think this would be so difficult.

Quote:

Would you really trust bureaucrats not to screw up an interrogation of that kind?

I don't trust bureaucrats to do anything. They need to be kept on a short leash. That is not the same as giving up and not even trying. Am I correct that this is your standard response to everything - ooh that sounds tough or complicated, therefor it is impossible?

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Do you imagine that immigrants can't be versed in answering correctly prior to travel to Australia?

Anything is possible. The process of doing that would make them feel less welcome. The more Islam demands it's followers to openly lie in its name, the more it undermines it's moral authority.

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What about the vernacular language barrier?

Now you are really clutching at straws. Do you really believe that a language barrier would prevent this?

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How long would it be before stats proved that Muslims were being targetted and with that opposition to it in Parliament being raised?

It would happen immediately, because Muslims would be targetted, because they would fail the test. That's the whole point Helian. Don't you get it? If it weeded out a few non-Muslims loonies in the process, all the better.

Quote:

I am unapologetically anti-Islam for the political reasons that FD summarised earlier. But come on, the Christian church opposes a Muslim school. That's just the pot calling the kettle black.

No it's not. Like it or not, our nation was founded on Christian values. Whatever you ascribe modern Australian values to, they are fundamentally at odds with Islam. I feel no threat to them from other faiths.

Quote:

I think its the poo brown colour scheme that turns people off. Needs to be blue and white. Flick the switch maestro.

I think you can change it in your personal options.

Quote:

You can change the colour scheme once a member, it that helps. Doesn't help the guests, of course. Maybe we could have a vote on it?

Go ahead and vote on it. Or better yet, choose two colours and come up with an alternative scheme first.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #100 - Apr 30^th, 2009 at 10:30pm

Quote:

It would happen immediately, because Muslims would be targetted, because they would fail the test.

What would the test determine? You are/are not a Muslim?

Quote:

Whatever you ascribe modern Australian values to, they are fundamentally at odds with Islam.

The points system, background checks, interrogations, long delays (which have the added benefit of observing current behaviour) are all done now. Nothing that you suggest is not done now. There are immigrants in Australia who will tell you of their long wait (in years) to immigrate, their multiple interviews (asking any number of questions) and requirements for more and more documentation, the rejections and reapplications.

So far you've waffled on about 'more interviews.. we need more interviews' (although what you'd ask that is not already asked, you won't say). I believe there's currently no limit to the number of interviews that can be requested. Have you actually ever spoken to anyone who's gone through the immigration mill at its most stringent?

The solution I believe you’re after would be one that excludes the immigration of Muslims because they are Muslims. That I believe is utterly naïve, raises the spectre of the White Australia policy and would be impossible to implement without the kind of condemnation that Australia (the nation that played a leading role in the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) would not endure.

The fear is yours.

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« Last Edit: May 1^st, 2009 at 5:47am by NorthOfNorth »

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freediver

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #101 - May 1^st, 2009 at 10:03pm

Quote:

What would the test determine? You are/are not a Muslim?

No Helian, it would determine whether you oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc. Sort of like what Howard was suggesting, only not about meat pies.

Quote:

The points system, background checks, interrogations, long delays (which have the added benefit of observing current behaviour) are all done now. Nothing that you suggest is not done now.

Are you claiming that current immigration rules exclude people based on political ideology?

Quote:

So far you've waffled on about 'more interviews.. we need more interviews' (although what you'd ask that is not already asked, you won't say).

But I have said Helian. In fact, I brought up the interviews in direct response to you asking me how I would find out the information I wanted. I started by suggesting very specific views that should exclude people from immigrating. I have repeated those views in just about every response to you. I'm not sure how you missed that. It's not like I came striaght out and said we need more bureaucracy.

Quote:

The solution I believe you’re after would be one that excludes the immigration of Muslims because they are Muslims.

No Helian. It would exclude the immigration of Muslims because they oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc. In fact, there would probably be plenty of self identified Muslims who would not be excluded by this, given the variability in personal ideology that comes under the various religious lables.

Helian, you appear to be suggesting that it is OK for immigrants to hold ideologies that are dedicated to destroying our society, so long as they can attach a religious label to them, as if it would be OK for Nazis to immigrate so long as they thought Hitler was the prophet. Is this what you really believe? You seem to understand that our objections are based on political ideology, yet you keep repeating 'but... but it's a religion' as if that makes it all OK.

Quote:

That I believe is utterly naïve, raises the spectre of the White Australia policy

So now you have gone from pretending that objecting to specific political ideologies is purely religious discrimination, to pretending that it is racism. Do you have any arguments that address the points we have actually raised, or is your entire argument based on a series of strawmen?

Quote:

and would be impossible to implement without the kind of condemnation that Australia (the nation that played a leading role in the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) would not endure

Let me get this striaght, on the one hand you argue that "Nothing that you suggest is not done now". On the other hand you argue that my suggestion would be impossible to implement. On the third hand, you argue that I won't say what my suggestion is. I am having trouble figuring out which of your arguments is the real one and which are the ones you slipped in as a little joke, to see if anyone still reads your posts. Would you care to tell me?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #102 - May 1^st, 2009 at 10:45pm

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2009 at 10:03pm:

No Helian, it would determine whether you oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc.

Refusal of entry based on those criteria is already the case and has been for a long time. Suspected political and active association with the Chinese Communist Party is one instance I directly know of where multiple interviews, screeds of documentation, long delays, rejections, and reapplications were required before final approval to immigrate was granted and that took 5 years.

Quote:

Are you claiming that current immigration rules exclude people based on political ideology?

Yes, apparently, as above.

Quote:

No Helian. It would exclude the immigration of Muslims because they oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc. In fact, there would probably be plenty of self identified Muslims who would not be excluded by this, given the variability in personal ideology that comes under the various religious lables.

I know that currently if Immigration determine that you oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc you can be refused entry now.

Quote:

Helian, you appear to be suggesting that it is OK for immigrants to hold ideologies that are dedicated to destroying our society, so long as they can attach a religious label to them, as if it would be OK for Nazis to immigrate so long as they thought Hitler was the prophet. Is this what you really believe? You seem to understand that our objections are based on political ideology, yet you keep repeating 'but... but it's a religion' as if that makes it all OK.

If Immigration determine that you oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc you can be refused entry now.

Quote:

Let me get this striaght, on the one hand you argue that "Nothing that you suggest is not done now". On the other hand you argue that my suggestion would be impossible to implement. On the third hand, you argue that I won't say what my suggestion is.

If Immigration determine that you oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc you can be refused entry now.

What does not currently happen, it seems, is that a prospective immigrant is refused entry solely on the basis that he/she is a Muslim…. Which is what, I believe, you’re really driving at.

Quote:

I am having trouble figuring out which of your arguments is the real one and which are the ones you slipped in as a little joke, to see if anyone still reads your posts. Would you care to tell me?

Don’t worry, FDD… I’m sure someone still reads your gardening section.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40955 Gender:	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #103 - May 1^st, 2009 at 11:06pm helian - that's interesting. Quote: If Immigration determine that you oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc you can be refused entry now. I might put together a case to present to the immigration dept concerning muslims. Anyone want to contribute ?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #104 - May 1^st, 2009 at 11:12pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 1^st, 2009 at 11:06pm:

helian - that's interesting.

Quote:

If Immigration determine that you oppose democracy, human rights, freedom of religion etc you can be refused entry now.

I might put together a case to present to the immigration dept concerning muslims.
Anyone want to contribute ?

Refusal of entry based on your belief in Islam would exclude the likes of Salman Rushdie and Muhammed Ali. It'd be pure entertainment watching an immigration minister trying to talk us around as to why the great Ali is not good enough to come here because he's a Muslim.

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