Australian Politics Forum - Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction

Aussie Skinhead

Senior Member

Offline

Reichsfuhrer der Deutsche
Reich

Posts: 391
Queensland Australia
Gender: male

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #15 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 4:02pm

It doesn't matter whether or not communism works because communist can't be achieved. Marx and Lenin said that to achieve communism, you must go through socialism and then abolish the state. No society has ever been able to abolish the state because it is impossible to do so. You need to state to manage the daily affairs of the society. If there was no state, then there would be no government, bureaucracy or cash. Any one with a back round in economics would know that a modern economy can not function with out cash or credit. Society needs a state to make laws and to control people's behaviour. Lenin said that you must abolish the state to have total freedom. In a way, Lenin was a libertarian. Both communism and libertarianism are bad because they undermine the state and thus society. Every civilization has had a state in some form or another.

George Orwell was a Trotskyite communist and was not criticizing communism when he wrote Animal Farm or the 1984 book.

I think the Communist Party of Australia is a waste of time being involved with. The CPA is doomed to cease to exist because Peter Symon is dead. He was the main organizer for 36 years. He has been replaced as Party General Secretary by Hannah Middleton. Warren Smith is now the Central Committee Chairman. I actually thought that Warren Smith would replace him as the Party leader. Either way, the Party is largely irrelevant and only has a small amount of power in the Maritime Union and a few other unions. In fact, I would go as far to say that the Stalinist League has more power then the Communist Party.

Back to top

“Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.”&&&&Reichsfuhrer Adolf Hitler der Grosse Deutsche Reich

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47481
At my desk.

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #16 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 6:26pm

Quote:

Obama's to the left of the Labor and Liberal parties. In what way is he right-wing at all?

In the same way that most of America is. Being left of centre in the US does not make you left wing by western standards. It's like being a little bit more progressive than Hitler. I suspect you are just taking broad generalisation from the media, targetted at a US audience, and assuming it would mean the same to an Australian audience.

Quote:

What's left-wing there is left wing here. Social programs, progressive taxation, unions, social progressivism, is considered left-wing in both countries. Free-market capitalism, strong national defence, social conservatism, is considered right-wing in both countries.

Sure, but that pretty much defines left and right wing. It defines the extremes. It is the same in all western countries. It does not define where the centre is. It does not define where the major political parties are. It only defines the directions they can move in, not where they are moving from. No matter where you are on the political spectrum, you can always find someone is further to the right or to the left of you.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

deleted

Junior Member

Offline

Posts: 68

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #17 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 6:41pm

Quote:

Yep, fd is right Obama is to the right of the Liberals let alone Labor, ya see bob, Aussie pollys arn't half as redneck as the yanks, think Abortion, gun laws, extreme god botherers extreme neo cons et al.

Obama's right-wing on those issues? Where the hell do you draw the line between right and left then? Obama is for late-term abortions and for terminating victims of failed abortions. He's for very strict gun restrictions. God, well OK, I'll give you that, he's very into God. But he's a far, far, far left-winger. There's no one is Australian politics to the left of him.

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 6:26pm:

In the same way that most of America is. Being left of centre in the US does not make you left wing by western standards. It's like being a little bit more progressive than Hitler. I suspect you are just taking broad generalisation from the media, targetted at a US audience, and assuming it would mean the same to an Australian audience.

Are you saying the US is more conservative than Australia? That's debatable I think. Both Australian parties, when they get into power, try to out-do the other in terms of fiscal conservatism. It's all about balancing the budget, trying to build a bigger surplus for the next year. That's pretty much the goal for either the Liberal or Labor party when they get into power. And it's a good thing. I'm happy most of our politicians are fiscal conservatives. But we do seem to have more social programs than the US. We have a bigger public health system. So I guess in those ways we are more left. But when I look at our parliament, I see a bunch of fiscally conservative and socially conservative people. Even Rudd, at least before the economic crisis was a conservative IMO.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 15^th, 2009 at 6:53pm by deleted »

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47481
At my desk.

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #18 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 7:13pm

Code:

Where the hell do you draw the line between right and left then?

Why don't you tell us where you draw the line? You seem to be drawing the line based on whether the US papers think of him as left wing or right wing. I have made it perfectly clear that the only sensible place to draw the line is with whatever is centrist for the given sopciety, but that you obviously cannot compare between sopcieties based on that standard. It is always a subject and relative measure. There is no absolute place to draw the line. Even the most cursory look at history should convin ce you of that.

Quote:

Are you saying the US is more conservative than Australia? That's debatable I think. Both Australian parties, when they get into power, try to out-do the other in terms of fiscal conservatism.

Which has absolutely zero to do with whether they are mroe conservative than the US. It's like two communist leaders trying to compete for forign investment. It does not suddenly make them capitalists. Or the one that outdoes the other is magically a capitalist while the other remains a communist.

Quote:

But we do seem to have more social programs than the US. We have a bigger public health system. So I guess in those ways we are more left. But when I look at our parliament, I see a bunch of fiscally conservative and socially conservative people. Even Rudd, at least before the economic crisis was a conservative IMO.

So when it comes to the real, mmeaningful policies we are to the left of the US, but when it comes to meaningless labels applied to people, we are more conservative? Perhaps you have been simply fooled by the propaganda machine. Our politicians try desperately to portray themselves as fiscally conservative, because no politician would want to describe themselves as anything else. In practice they are anything but, especially when compared to the US.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

deleted

Junior Member

Offline

Posts: 68

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #19 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 7:22pm

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 7:13pm:

Our politicians try desperately to portray themselves as fiscally conservative, because no politician would want to describe themselves as anything else.

And why do you think that is? Because they want to appeal to the voters, the majority of whom are center-right in this country.

You've yet to really point out exactly how Obama is any way, shape or form right-wing.

What, he's called left-wing by American media so to look like you aren't a victim of the media machine you say he's right-wing? Is that it?

I'm just not understanding where you argument is even coming from. Are you arguing that Obama is not left-wing? I don't get what you're even arguing about.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47481
At my desk.

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #20 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 7:35pm

Quote:

And why do you think that is? Because they want to appeal to the voters, the majority of whom are center-right in this country.

No, because the alternative is to portray themselves as reckless with other people's money.

Quote:

You've yet to really point out exactly how Obama is any way, shape or form right-wing.

No need. You did that for me.

Back to top

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

IP Logged

Jim Profit Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 439 Gender:	Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction Reply #21 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 8:23pm As long as abortion is banned, I welcome our new soviet overlords!
Back to top	But I still believe there's something left for you and me. IP Logged

mantra

Gold Member

Offline

ozpolitic.com

Posts: 10750
Gender: female

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #22 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 8:53pm

deleted wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 7:22pm:

You've yet to really point out exactly how Obama is any way, shape or form right-wing.

What, he's called left-wing by American media so to look like you aren't a victim of the media machine you say he's right-wing? Is that it?

I'm just not understanding where you argument is even coming from. Are you arguing that Obama is not left-wing? I don't get what you're even arguing about.

Quote:

Obama: Trilateral Commission Endgame (Update 1)

The August Review ^ | January 30, 2009 | Patrick Wood

For anyone who doubts the Commission's continuing influence on Obama, consider that he has already appointed no less than eleven members of the Commission to top-level and key positions in his Administration.

According to official Trilateral Commission membership lists, there are only 87 members from the United States (the other 337 members are from other regions). Thus, in less than two weeks since his inauguration, Obama's appointments encompass more than 12% of Commission's entire U.S. membership.

Is this a mere coincidence or is it a continuation of dominance over the Executive Branch since 1976?

U.S. Trilateral members implement policies determined by a majority of non-Americans that most often work against the best interests of the country.

"How," you say?

Since the administration of Jimmy Carter, Trilaterals held these massively influential positions:

Six out of eight World Bank presidents, including the current appointee, Robert Zoelick
Eight out of ten U.S. Trade Representatives
President and/or Vice-President of every elected administration (except for Obama/Biden)
Seven out of twelve Secretaries of State
Nine out of twelve Secretaries of Defense

For the Trilateral crowd, the game is about over. The recent reemergence of original members Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Brent Scowcroft and Paul Volker serves to reinforce the conclusion that the New International Economic Order is near.

The Trilateral Commission and its members have engineered the global economic, trade and financial system that is currently in a state of total chaos.

The Obama presidency is a disingenuous fraud. He was elected by promising to bring change, yet from the start change was never envisioned. He was carefully groomed and financed by the Trilateral Commission and their friends.

In short, Obama is merely the continuation of disastrous, non-American policies that have brought economic ruin upon us and the rest of the world. The Obama experience rivals that of Jimmy Carter, whose campaign slogan was "I will never lie to you."

When the Democrat base finally realizes that it has been conned again (Bill Clinton and Al Gore were members), perhaps it will unleash a real political revolution that will oust Trilateral politicians, operatives and policies from the shores of our country.

If the reader is a Democrat, be aware that many Republicans and conservatives are still licking their wounds after finally realizing that George Bush and Dick Cheney worked the same con on them for a disastrous eight years of the same policies!

http://www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/trilateral_commission/obama:_trilate...

Back to top

IP Logged

Aussie Skinhead Senior Member Offline Reichsfuhrer der Deutsche Reich Posts: 391 Queensland Australia Gender:	Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction Reply #23 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 9:13pm The whole left and right thing is a total invention of the Jewish controlled intelligentsia. The left and right mind set is obsolete and out of date. Welcome to the new era of mental progressiveness.
Back to top	“Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.”&&&&Reichsfuhrer Adolf Hitler der Grosse Deutsche Reich IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #24 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 10:12pm

Aussie Skinhead wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 9:13pm:

The whole left and right thing is a total invention of the Jewish controlled intelligentsia. The left and right mind set is obsolete and out of date. Welcome to the new era of mental progressiveness.

You'll find that it is an invention of the French National Assembly after the 1789 revolution. France was a monarchy until the beheading (whoa.... don't go there!!!) of the king in 1793.

So it's more like a Frenchy plot, as usual.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction Reply #25 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 10:19pm Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy. Or even a dodgy one.
Back to top	I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT! IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction Reply #26 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 10:29pm freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 10:19pm: Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy. Or even a dodgy one. Ah.. but which conspiracy? The Jews or the French?? Gotta be the French Jews. Obvious.
Back to top	IP Logged

deleted

Junior Member

Offline

Posts: 68

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #27 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:13pm

Aussie Skinhead wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 9:13pm:

The whole left and right thing is a total invention of the Jewish controlled intelligentsia. The left and right mind set is obsolete and out of date. Welcome to the new era of mental progressiveness.

I agree with one thing, left and right politics is becoming obsolete. I said this in an earlier post in this thread. I think people's mind sets are moving away from left (liberal/progressive) and right (conservative) and people are starting to think more along the lines of authoritarian and libertarian. Simply, should the government have the power to tell you what to do with your money and your personal life or not. None of this, the government can do this but not that. It's becoming more of an ultimatum. Big government or small government. No more intervening in some areas but not others. You're either going to be for big government power or against it.

Back to top

IP Logged

easel

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 3120

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #28 - Mar 16^th, 2009 at 2:10am

Socialism can be ok except when it starts to mirror communism in the sense that the socialist politicians think they have the right to start making more and more rules because the people are too dumb to think for themselves, which invariably happens, at least in this country.

That's the problem with socialists a lot of the time, they have good ideas (from their perspective) and are going to change the world and make it a better place (from their perspective) but they fail to take in to account how real people are going to feel about the changes, and how they will affect them.

It's easy to say lets give them x it will make life easier, however, the politicians have often never come from situations where they would be able to first hand evaluate the individual reaction to change of said conditions, and are thinking collectively, with people just as a number, and not as an actual person.

That's why socialism never seems to help the poor or disadvantaged, because they are not actually helped, they are given sustainability. It just runs the country in to the ground.

Libertarian is a good idea. It gives power to the people away from the government and gives them more freedom, which is the opposite of socialism without venturing too far in the direction of capitalism.

You shouldn't be able to tell someone that they can't, for example, play a computer game, because it is too violent, considering they are a legal adult and could be used by the government in war time and actually kill real people.

Too many politicians think it is their duty to impose their own belief systems upon everyone else, not caring about how other people feel about their freedoms.

Of course there have to be rules, or anarchy takes over, and society will collapse, but some rules are common sense, whilst some are an invasion of privacy and freedom, and should be done away with.

Too many rules makes people unhappy and resentful. And when that happens, more social problems emerge, with more politicians making more idiotic rules, which only serves to make the situation worse.

Less laws, tougher punishments would work a lot better. It would depend a lot on the punishments and the laws, though.

Back to top

I am from a foreign government. This is not a joke. I am authorised to investigate state and federal bodies including ASIO.

IP Logged

locutius

Gold Member

Offline

You can't fight in here!
It's the War Room

Posts: 1817
Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Karl Marx 1867 gave this prediction
Reply #29 - Mar 16^th, 2009 at 11:03am

Marx is a complete dude!!! I would have loved to put him and Adam Smith is a room together. They would have got along quite well I think. Far better than with the grubs of industry and politics that abused their messages.

But yes I would fight communism as well, that's communism as it has been practiced in the real world anyway. Let's face it communism is even worse than capitalism. And that's pretty hard to do.

Back to top

I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

IP Logged