Australian Politics Forum - Land degradation in the Middle East

ex-member DonaldTrump

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Land degradation in the Middle East
Feb 16^th, 2009 at 5:38pm

Since our friendly neighbourhood environment moderator doesn't think land degradation in the Middle-East is a topic suitable for the 'environment' (Ie. He doesn't want anything negative said about Muslims or their cultural practices), I've decided to re-open the thread in the 'general' section.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1234614813

-Take a note environmental moderator, rather than deleting a whole thread because you disagree with its content or don't think it's a suitable topic for your particular sub-forum, simply move the thread to a a different sub-forum.

Tallowood Quote:

in 1898, German Kaiser Wilhelm II also visited Palestine. He was appalled at the condition of the country. The Ottomans had stripped the forests for lumber and firewood. The Palestinian Arabs had let an old Roman aqueduct fall into ruin. The ultimate ecological curse was the ubiquitous herds of black goats. For nearly 2,000 years after the dispersion of the Jews, Arabs had allowed their goats to graze unfenced across Palestine. They had eaten the grass down to its roots, and the topsoil had eroded and blown away. The biblical land of milk and honey had become a dust bowl.

Now, once again Tallo, can you please provide a source for this quote.

(I'm sorry to ask again, but the 'thought police' deleted it)

It does seem to explain the reason Israel is in such a bad state (Especially after every reference in the bible regards it as 'the land of milk and honey). -I've always wondered why this is. Ottoman and Arab cultural practices may explain why the land fell into such ruin.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: Land degradation in the Middle East Reply #1 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 5:42pm I think the relevant academics attribute most of it to climate change.
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ex-member DonaldTrump Gold Member Offline Oh mere mortals, open your eyes! Posts: 1995 Overseas Gender:	Re: Land degradation in the Middle East Reply #2 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 6:24pm freediver wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 5:42pm: I think the relevant academics attribute most of it to climate change. What are you basing that on?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #3 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 6:28pm

Quote:

In 1836, Charles Darwin also visited Australia. He was appalled at the condition of the country. The colonists had stripped the forests for lumber and firewood. The pastoralists were severely taxing rivers by irrigation. The ultimate ecological curse was the ubiquitous herds of sheep and cattle. After only 50 years since the expulsion of indigenous Australians from the land, the pastoralists had allowed their herds to graze the country almost into the dirt. They had eaten the grass down to its roots, and the thin and poor topsoil had eroded and blown away. His imagined land of milk and honey was soon to become a dust bowl.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47460 At my desk.	Re: Land degradation in the Middle East Reply #4 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 6:39pm ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 6:24pm: freediver wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 5:42pm: I think the relevant academics attribute most of it to climate change. What are you basing that on? Vague recollections.
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ex-member DonaldTrump

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #5 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:18pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 6:28pm:

Quote:

In 1836, Charles Darwin also visited Australia. He was appalled at the condition of the country. The colonists had stripped the forests for lumber and firewood. The pastoralists were severely taxing rivers by irrigation. The ultimate ecological curse was the ubiquitous herds of sheep and cattle. After only 50 years since the expulsion of indigenous Australians from the land, the pastoralists had allowed their herds to graze the country almost into the dirt. They had eaten the grass down to its roots, and the thin and poor topsoil had eroded and blown away. His imagined land of milk and honey was soon to become a dust bowl.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bOs88J5Nv2Vc/610x.jpg

For the uneducated posters out there who can't spot the bleeding obvious, Helian just made that quote up.

-What he's doing is trying to make a point that European culture did just as much harm to the environment as Islamic culture ever could.

While I do acknowledge that European (Christian) civilisation has been rather destructive in regards to the environment, it would be wrong to push aside the fact that Islamic culture has been just as, or more destructive.

It has been widely publicised that Europeans are the only race in the world that has caused severe enronmental problems, it is rather refreshing to hear that Middle-Easterners are largely responsible for the destruction of their own habitat.

By the way Helian, Aboriginals have often been blamed for changing the once beautiful rainforest filled Australian landscape to a desert in less than 20,000 years due to the large scale practice of bushfires. Aboriginals have also been blamed for causing the extinction of Australia's megafauna by highly respectable academics.

If these theories are somehow proven to be correct, then Aboriginals, not Europeans, were much more destructive towards the Australian environment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushfire#History
Sources:
Flannery, T. (1994) "The future eaters" Reed Books Melbourne.
Wilson, B., S. Boulter, et al. (2000). Queensland's resources. Native Vegetation Management in Queensland. S. L. Boulter, B. A. Wilson, J. Westrupet eds. Brisbane, Department of Natural Resources.
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/nature/features/article_1032385.php/Ab...

Perhaps the Aboriginals should be the ones apologizing? Grin

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ex-member DonaldTrump

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #6 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:19pm

freediver wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 6:39pm:

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 6:24pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 5:42pm:

I think the relevant academics attribute most of it to climate change.

What are you basing that on?

Vague recollections.

Are there any authors or studies you can recall off the top of your head?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #7 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:27pm

Good thing you had old Kaiser Wilhelm on your side, peering out of his royal coach at "Palestine" as it ambled past a few fields on the way to and from his royal yacht that carried him back to Germany.

All human civilisations, particularly with concentrated populations often do untold damage to the environment. Its a human thing not a religious thing.

And by the way, Darwin did comment on the limited capacity for agriculture in Australia and noted the enormous damage European civilisation was doing to the environment. He believed that most of Australian native wildlife would be wiped out within 50 years. He could see that European style farming was inappropriate and ultimately unsustainable in Australia.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #8 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:45pm

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:18pm:

By the way Helian, Aboriginals have often been blamed for changing the once beautiful rainforest filled Australian landscape to a desert in less than 20,000 years due to the large scale practice of bushfires. Aboriginals have also been blamed for causing the extinction of Australia's megafauna by highly respectable academics.

20,000 years? What took them so long? Europeans would have done it in 200.

On every continent where species of megafauna did not evolve with humans, they were quickly wiped out by the migration of humans into the area.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: Land degradation in the Middle East Reply #9 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:49pm helian, why did you lie?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #10 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:57pm

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:49pm:

helian, why did you lie?

Did I lie little Tallow?

Go and read the comments Darwin made about the effect of European civilisation on Australia. He recognised that the land would not sustain the clearing and deforestation for grazing. As he arrived in Summer he witnessed first hand what these practices exacerbated by lack of rainfall and tapping the meagre river systems would do to the land.

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tallowood

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #11 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:04pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:57pm:

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:49pm:

helian, why did you lie?

Did I lie little Tallow?

Go and read the comments Darwin made about the effect of European civilisation on Australia. He recognised that the land would not sustain the clearing and deforestation for grazing. As he arrived in Summer he witnessed first hand what these practices exacerbated by lack of rainfall and tapping the meagre river systems would do to the land.

I read it and the question remains.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #12 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:19pm

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:57pm:

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:49pm:

helian, why did you lie?

Did I lie little Tallow?

Go and read the comments Darwin made about the effect of European civilisation on Australia. He recognised that the land would not sustain the clearing and deforestation for grazing. As he arrived in Summer he witnessed first hand what these practices exacerbated by lack of rainfall and tapping the meagre river systems would do to the land.

I read it and the question remains.

What did you read, little fella?

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tallowood

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #13 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:26pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:19pm:

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:57pm:

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:49pm:

helian, why did you lie?

Did I lie little Tallow?

Go and read the comments Darwin made about the effect of European civilisation on Australia. He recognised that the land would not sustain the clearing and deforestation for grazing. As he arrived in Summer he witnessed first hand what these practices exacerbated by lack of rainfall and tapping the meagre river systems would do to the land.

I read it and the question remains.

What did you read, little fella?

I read your lie, big dickhead.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Land degradation in the Middle East
Reply #14 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:35pm

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:26pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:19pm:

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 9:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:57pm:

tallowood wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 8:49pm:

helian, why did you lie?

Did I lie little Tallow?

Go and read the comments Darwin made about the effect of European civilisation on Australia. He recognised that the land would not sustain the clearing and deforestation for grazing. As he arrived in Summer he witnessed first hand what these practices exacerbated by lack of rainfall and tapping the meagre river systems would do to the land.

I read it and the question remains.

What did you read, little fella?

I read your lie, big dickhead.

What did you think of his comments about creating canals to irrigate farms and pasture? What about his belief in the extinction of Australian fauna through European activity from hunting and destruction of habitat? What about his warning that Australia could not sustain expansion of agriculture?

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