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Islam denies freedom of religion (Read 2218 times)
freediver
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Islam denies freedom of religion
Feb 15th, 2009 at 9:50pm
 
Islam denies people freedom of religion. This is part of how it spreads. Muslims however are loathe to acknowledge this. For example:

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 12:03am:
Quote:
It spreads by denying people freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of dress.


Nope, it spreads by people recognising the truth of it, and embracing it.


I suspect part of the problem is that Islam contradicts itself on this issue. There is a passage in the Koran that basically says there shall be no compulsion in religion, but there is also a lot of rules in Islam about how to compel people to become Muslim. The only way out of this contradiction is for Muslims is to redefine what freedom of religion is, so they can keep a straight face while sprouting the 'no compulsion' line. That is, holding a gun to someone's head and forcing the to pray to Allah denies them freedom of religion, but anything less does not. As with any freedom, to be real it must be protected in rpactice, not just in theory. In this way Islam is a 'virulent' ideology.

These are some of the ways in which Islam denies people freedom of religion:

1) Death penalty for Apostasy. Interestingly, this is not actually in the Koran, but Islam has adopted it anyway. Presumably the death is the same slow, agonising, drawn out stoning that applies to other 'crimes' that are considered basic rights in more advanced societies. There are some additional strange aspects to Islam that could make the death penalty for apostasy apply to far broader situations than you would expect. For example, people are considered to be born Muslim. The equivalent of a 'born-again' Christian is someone who 'reverts' to Islam. I haven't been able to get a straight answer on this from resident Muslims. Nor have I been able to get a straight answer on the fact that Sunnis and Shites consider each other apostates, or how they would deal with 'progressive' Islamic movements such as the 'Koran only' types.

2) Blasphemy is a crime. I haven't been able to get the penalty from any resident Muslims. The case of Salman Ruishdie appears to idnicate that the penalty for blasphemy is also death. The response to the Muhammed cartoons also seems to imply that a lynch mob would be waiting for anyone who dares to criticise Islam. Any 'open debate' about religion in an Islamic society would risk angering the mob.

3) Denial of justice to non-Muslims. The testimony in court of non-Muslims is considered inferior by default. Thus, any rights or 'equality before the law' that is theortically given to non-Muslims are arbitraily denied because there is no access to justice in any conflict between a Muslim and a non-Muslim. Thus it is inevitable that unscrupulous Muslims (yes they do exist) would systematically take advantage of non-Mulims. Also, these 'theoretical' rights only apply to Christians and Jews. I have not been able to get a straight answer on how Islam approaches other religions, just a few specific examples where, surprise surprise, the non-Dhimmi non-Muslims were treated OK, either by magically converting on the spot and thus avoiding slaughter, or where Islam came into contact with 'stronger' religions, by granting them Dhimmi status.

4) Second class citizenship for non-Muslims. Muslims will deny this and claim that Dhimmitude is a form of protection, but even the label of protection implies second class status. A minor is protected by law. Protection is what you offer someone who lacks rights of their own. In practice, the Caliphate went far beyond the denial of justice and basic rights to non-Muslims. They created an apartheid regime that forced non-Muslims into a state of humiliation. This happened at every level of Islamic society, from dress codes to taxation to building codes to places of worship. Non-Muslims were not even allowed to speak the same way as Muslims. Dhimmis risk death or slavery for violating these requirements.

5) Islam encourages parents to beat children for not praying.
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Re: Islam denies freedom of religion
Reply #1 - Feb 15th, 2009 at 9:50pm
 
6) Islamic etiquette requires Muslims to extend to other Muslims the benefit of the doubt, to make excuses for them, and to conceal their faults. This is another 'conflict' in Islamic ideology. Islam says both that Muslims should defend other Muslims no matter what, but also says they should correct each other. I suspect that in practice this means that in any disagreement between a Muslim and a non-Muslim, a Muslim will automatically side with a Muslim. It is only when non-Muslims are not invovled that Muslims will criticise each other. That is, being a Muslim comes before being right or wrong. For example:

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 12:03am:
Osama has just been placed in a difficult time and set of circumstances that's all, even his former hunter Michael Scheuer claims him to be a great leader. I'm sure if he was born under a Caliphate, he would've been more famous than infamous.


abu_rashid wrote on Feb 10th, 2009 at 7:22pm:
mozzaok,

Quote:
even though the only commonality you share with them is your religion, you really are just reinforcing the belief in the "Us against Them", mentality


I can choose to support people based on any criteria I so choose. I choose those whom I have a strong spiritual bond with, and I consider that the best criteria. You might choose colour of skin, shared colonial history, similar socio-economic situation or any other criteria, that's up to you also.



More info:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values

What this means in practice is that Islam denies people freedom of religion by law, then goes on to create a society where extremists are set loose on non-Muslims with relative impunity, both through official and unofficial channels.

Islam spread by denying people these basic freedoms. It took over land through military conquest. Then it gave the people a choice of humiliation and suffering or claiming to be a Muslim. Then it gave them a choice of dying a horrible death or remaining a Muslim. Then it forced them to kill in the name of Islam and thus help spread the ideology.

Even though the Caliphate has been destroyed, the toxic ideology remains. Conservative Muslims are desperately trying to hold onto power in historical Muslim lands so that they can continue denying people

these basic rights. When Palestinian extremist groups warned women to wear a veil or suffer the consequences, then threw acid in the face of women who dressed 'immodestly' by not wearing one, Australian

Muslim converts here on this forum described the incident as 'just another crime' with no significance to human rights.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam denies freedom of religion
Reply #2 - Feb 15th, 2009 at 11:57pm
 
It's quite interesting that you raised this topic fd, because I was just thinking about opening a thread on this very topic, but in the opposite direction, to show that in fact it's Western/Secular/Christian society which is trying to deny freedom of religion.

Religion is based upon a set of beliefs and values that govern the way adherents to the religion conduct their life and look at the world around them. Although the Secularist/Christian society in which we live claims to offer freedom of religion, the fact is that when it comes to Islam, there are plenty of elements within this society who are working to curtail religious freedom. for instance we've had the debate about Australian values (remember values are something religion defines), and that's fine, no problem, people should respect the values  of the country they live in. But to demand everyone ADOPT them clearly contradicts the concept of freedom of religion. This means you don't have the freedom to adopt the values of your religion, if they are not the same as the values of the society.

We then have the more extreme elements, like soren, claiming that not only must Muslims adopt Australian values, they must also adopt Australian styles of clothing. Nevermind tthat we live in a society which supposedly values individualism and even setting yourself apart by the clothes you choose to wear. In soren's view of Australian society, there should be a rough "Australian uniform" and anyone (especially Muslims) not adhering to it should be deported for daring to look different to the mainstream. Sounds a little totalitarian doesn't it? Well that's where Australian society is heading, in a very totalitarian direction. Some people even suspect that Islam is merely an excuse for governments to curtail the freedoms they really don't want their citizenry having in the first place. So they want people to have the illusion of freedom, but in reality they are going to be governed by very strict totalitarian rules, which they are going to accept just need to be 'infringed upon' occasionally for the greater good of protecting them.

Now onto your wayward claims...

Quote:
so they can keep a straight face while sprouting the 'no compulsion' line


There is no compulsion to enter Islam. That's always been known to be the meaning of this verse.
And the circumstances in which the verse was revealed make it quite clear that it's forbidden to force someone to embrace Islam. At the time of the Prophet Muhammad, there lived a Muslim man by the name Hussein bin Salim bin ‘Awf. He had two daughters who were Christian. It troubled Hussein greatly that his daughters were not of the same faith as him. Time and time again, he tried his best to persuade his daughters to Islam but to no avail. One day, the father got fed up and went to Prophet Muhammad. He asked his permission to compel his daughters into converting to Islam. But to his surprise, Muhammad refused.

According to a commentary by Al-Suyuti in his work, Asbab Al-Nuzul, this is the trigger point that led to the revelation of verse 256 in Chapter 2 of the Quran:

“There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejects false deities and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”


Quote:
1) Death penalty for Apostasy. Interestingly, this is not actually in the Koran, but Islam has adopted it anyway.


As has been pointed out to you enough times, this is from hadith, and it clearly indicates it is for treason against the Islamic state.

Quote:
Nor have I been able to get a straight answer on the fact that Sunnis and Shites consider each other apostates


Shi'a lived under the mainstream Caliphate for centuries and were never classed as apostates. Can't say you've ever asked me about this before.

Quote:
2) Blasphemy is a crime. I haven't been able to get the penalty from any resident Muslims


I think I've told you, that I don't know the penalty. No doubt I'm just feigning my lack of knowledge (I am omniscient after all, according to your claims) to misdirect you from the truth..

Quote:
3) Denial of justice to non-Muslims.


See common misconceptions thread, dealt with.

Quote:
4) Second class citizenship for non-Muslims.


As above.

Quote:
5) Islam encourages parents to beat children for not praying.


It does not encourage it. Simply says it can be used to disclipine them if they are lazy in starting to pray. Btw, you didn't mention it says to give them 3 years.

Quote:
What this means in practice is that Islam denies people freedom of religion by law, then goes on to create a society where extremists are set loose on non-Muslims with relative impunity, both through official and unofficial channels.


You've made a very poor case fd, and have not proved this whatsoever. The fact that Christians and Jews were all over the Islamic world at the fall of the Caliphate, shows quite clearly that Islam permits freedom of religion. Not to mention the fact there's about 20 different religions extant in the Islamic lands. How many are in the Christian lands? Answer: 0. Christianity wiped out any trace of any other religion, and yes we know it now claims to be all friendly and lovey dovey towards non-Christians, means little after you've completely wiped them out of the pages of history. Not to mention the hundreds of different sects of Christianity
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Re: Islam denies freedom of religion
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:00am
 
Quote:
Although the Secularist/Christian society in which we live claims to offer freedom of religion, the fact is that when it comes to Islam, there are plenty of elements within this society who are working to curtail religious freedom.


Sure Abu. No freedom is absolute. It only extends so far as it impinges on other people's freedoms. The freedom to swing your fist ends at another person's nose. Simple concept. If you make overthrowing democracy and denying people basic rights part of your religion, then it will be denied to you, and rightly so.

Quote:
Well that's where Australian society is heading, in a very totalitarian direction.


No it isn't. We are heading directly away from that.

Quote:
Some people even suspect that Islam is merely an excuse for governments to curtail the freedoms they really don't want their citizenry having in the first place.


Yes. We call them conspiracy theorists.

Quote:
There is no compulsion to enter Islam. That's always been known to be the meaning of this verse.
And the circumstances in which the verse was revealed make it quite clear that it's forbidden to force someone to embrace Islam.


How does this work? By redefining 'force' and 'compulsion'?

Quote:
As has been pointed out to you enough times, this is from hadith, and it clearly indicates it is for treason against the Islamic state.


No Abu, it is for apostasy. You merely consider that to be treason. That's like having a death penalty for littering by 'considering it' a treasonous offence. It is a clear denial of freedom of religion. It is forcing people to remain Muslim. The treason excuse does not change any of this.

Quote:
See common misconceptions thread, dealt with.


I saw the common deceptions thread. It avoided it. Quit pretending that it deals with anything or answers any real questions. It is a bunch of strawman arguments designed to mislead people, nothing more.

Quote:
You've made a very poor case fd, and have not proved this whatsoever. The fact that Christians and Jews were all over the Islamic world at the fall of the Caliphate, shows quite clearly that Islam permits freedom of religion.


No it does not Abu, any more than claiming that the ability of a person to speak is evidence that their state allows freedom of speech. You just have absolutely no concept of what freedom actually means. It would be interesting to know whether Islam caused you to lose this concept of what freedom is, or whether you never understood it to begin with, which is what attracted you to Islam.
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Re: Islam denies freedom of religion
Reply #4 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:04pm
 
I left off a big one:

6) Union of church and state. Islam is fundamentally opposed to secularism.

7) Islam is fundamentally opposed to democracy.

Both of these help to safeguard against denial of freedom of religion. They are a threat to Islam in that they can facilitate peaceful co-existence that doesn't involve Islamic dominance or the institutionalisation of Islamic supremacy.

That is why so many Muslims in the middle east are fighting the new governments in Iraq and Afghanistan. That is why they are trying desperately to make it out to be a fight between Islam and Christianity. That is why Abu tries to do the same. It is really a struggle between Islam and freedom, between Islam and democracy. But if they acknowledged this, they would lose before it began. Islam does not just deny freedom to non-Muslims. It also denies freedom to Muslims themselves. You cannot deny freedom to others without denying it to yourself. They deny fellow Muslims the right to decide for themselves what Islam is. They are in a perpetual struggle to impose their particular version of Islam on others. Hence the Sunnis and Shites blowing up each other's mosques. Hence the backwardness of the religion and the militant opposition to progressive movements.
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Re: Islam denies freedom of religion
Reply #5 - Feb 17th, 2009 at 3:16pm
 
Further to 4)

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 25th, 2008 at 8:41am:
The concept of toleration is linked to a number of discriminatory obligations in the economic, religious and social fields, imposed by the shari'a on the dhimmis. The transgression by the dhimmis of some of these obligations, abolished their protection, and threaten them with death or slavery. Dhimmis suffered many legal disabilities intended to reduce them to a condition of humiliation, segregation and discrimination. These rules, established from the eight to nine centuries by the founders of the four schools of Islamic law, set the pattern of the Muslim's community's social behavior toward dhimmis.


Abu's response in that thread:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 25th, 2008 at 9:30am:
Quote:
Lestat I have a genuine interest in Islamic Law. It would be a shame if I had to go to those sites to get my information as I realise how hard it can be to find out the true nature of a doctrine from those who don't share it.


freediver your sincerity is a mirage.

You ask questions, pick and choose what you think is useful from it, fill in the gaps with propaganda, and claim Muslims deceive you anyway and then write what you want.

Cut out the middle man, and just write what you want, why bother even asking us when you know you're not going to accept it anyway.


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 25th, 2008 at 10:12am:
sprint,

There's no deflection there, there's just an outright refusal to answer. You and freediver both don't want to hear the answers, so don't ask the questions.

Gaybriel has already pointed out this fact, that you couldn't care less what the answer is, because always your final reasoning, even if you get an answer that's agreeable to you, is "Well Muslims can lie to kaffirs anyway, so I don't believe you".

Nobody would answer your questions with such an attitude.

So quit the crap about deflections, you're just simply not getting my time of day.

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