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Interpretation-That's what it's all about. (Read 9061 times)
Grendel
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #15 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 12:55pm
 
ROTFLMAO

back to the Crusades again...  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #16 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 1:04pm
 
Quote:
Yet all we hear about is the last 5 minutes of the story,, of a few Muslims, who after years of colonialism, oppression, pillaging of their land and resources, constant and enduring political interference in their countries, finally say "enough is enough" and begin resisting


Like the spoilt little white boys who blew up the London busses after converting to Islam? Oh that's right, they didn't suffer at all, they just wanted to be part of the action. Is 'resisting' your new euphemism for people who have no part in the conflict blowing up busses to try to spread the conflict?

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and you instantly claim it's the most evil brutal ideology on earth


No-one is saying that. most people will concede that Islam is better than Nazism for example. You make a reasonable case that it is better than burning witches at the stake and all the other crazy poo people used to do. What I don't get is why you bother to make these arguments when you know that if the same comaprison is made to modern society, Islam comes up short. You are not putting it into context, you are taking it out of context. You are trying to justify Islam's refusal to modernise by comparing it with every evil thing done in the past. The west used the evil things done in the past to avoid repeating the mistakes in the future. Islam seems to use them as a reason to repeat the mistakes of the past. It uses one ancient mistake to justify another.

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Because Christianity has not moved on. All the texts are exactly as they were at least 1500 years ago. Adherence to them waxes and wanes over centuries depending on the attitudes of the faithful. The current Pope (and his predecessor) is proceeding towards a conservative (and perhaps ultra-conservative) Church. If the détente sought with Orthodox and Protestant denominations results in their return to the Holy See and if the rate of lapse seen over the last few decades reverses, the world will see a Church once more passing censorious judgments on unsanctioned individual liberties and heterodoxy.


What does that have to do with excommunication?
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #17 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 4:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 8th, 2009 at 1:04pm:
What does that have to do with excommunication?

Because with Christianity, like Islam, the doctrine has been settled long ago and the penalty for dissent against orthodoxy remains excommunication. If Christianity ever regains its socio-political status, you can expect that clerics will once again pronounce harsh judgement on dissenters using the same doctrine as was used 1000 years ago.


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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #18 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 4:13pm
 
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Because with Christianity, like Islam, the doctrine has been settled long ago and the penalty for dissent against orthodoxy remains excommunication.


Who cares? Just start your own church if you think you ahve a better interpretation.

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If Christianity ever regains its socio-political status, you can expect that clerics will once again pronounce harsh judgement on dissenters using the same doctrine as was used 1000 years ago.


That is a problem with the fusion of church and state. The solution to that is separation of church and state, not interference in what are the legitimate interests of the church. You sound like you are using fear of the re-fusion of church and state to justify the state meddling in church affairs.

Excommunication is not a harsh doctrine. It is perhaps the most appropriate punishment a church can use. It's like not feeding trolls.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #19 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 6:03pm
 

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHGOl-jfUK0

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #20 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 8:41pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2009 at 6:03pm:
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Oh, but we do....

Oh Yes...

We do.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #21 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 9:22pm
 
Mr Rotflmao,

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back to the Crusades again...


I take it that since Calanen was the one who tried to compare past Christian atrocities to alleged Islamic ones that this comment is directed at him.

Freediver,


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Like the spoilt little white boys who blew up the London busses after converting to Islam?


Which spoilt little white boys exactly?? Can you give some more information on this..

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No-one is saying that. most people will concede that Islam is better than Nazism for example.


Firstly quite a few people here have claimed that Islam is the same as Nazism.

Secondly, the fact you consider it 'better' than Nazism, presumably by a narrow margin is still quite troubling.

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What I don't get is why you bother to make these arguments when you know that if the same comaprison is made to modern society, Islam comes up short


The thing is I didn't use them as arguments for anything. I merely used them to show that Calanen's feeble comparison to the Inquisition is a little historically dishonest.

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You are not putting it into context, you are taking it out of context. You are trying to justify Islam's refusal to modernise by comparing it with every evil thing done in the past.


What exactly do you mean by modernising? Do you think Muslims prefer to travel by camel than cars or something? If you mean adopting immoral social practises etc. then that's right, Islam is refusing to 'modernise' and will continue to do so.

I personally consider Islam to be the moderate 'middle road'. It was neither excessively restrictive in the past when Christianity was. Neither is it extremely liberal today when Christianity has become so. It has been a consistent and moderate path in between the two which need not change, because it doesn't exist at either extreme. The Christian world however went from one extreme to the other. So in the past Christians attacked Islam for being too liberal, and today they attack it for being too conservative. This is in fact vindication of Islam's moderate nature and middle path status for me. Christian European culture is in fact the extremist culture.

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Islam seems to use them as a reason to repeat the mistakes of the past. It uses one ancient mistake to justify another.


But you're forgetting something. Islam didn't make those mistakes, Christian Europe did. There's no lesson for us to learn, because we weren't the ones burning witches alive by the millions, you guys were. And neither does Islam do anything even remotely comparable to that today. There's simply some Muslims involved in independance/resistance struggles (against the Christian/European extremists), as people have been involved in independance/resistace struggles at many times throughout history. The only difference is, you've somehow been deluded into believing those resistance actions are somehow even remotely comparable to the vast sea of evil atrocities Christian Europe committed throughout her history... They don't compare, and they're not even remotely related phenomena.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #22 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 9:43pm
 
Quote:
Firstly quite a few people here have claimed that Islam is the same as Nazism.


Well I think it is slightly better than Nazism, hence this thread:

Islam: not as bad as Nazism

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227073485

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Secondly, the fact you consider it 'better' than Nazism, presumably by a narrow margin is still quite troubling.


The fact that you persistently compare it to burning witches at the stake etc, as if that is supposed to make it look good, is troubling.

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What exactly do you mean by modernising? Do you think Muslims prefer to travel by camel than cars or something? If you mean adopting immoral social practises etc. then that's right, Islam is refusing to 'modernise' and will continue to do so.


Modernising: not stoning women to death, not overthrowing democratically elected governments to install an Islamic dictatorship, not killing apostates etc. Take your pick.

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The Christian world however went from one extreme to the other.


No it didn't. It ceased being a 'Christian' world.

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So in the past Christians attacked Islam for being too liberal


So invading Spain was a liberal idea?

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But you're forgetting something. Islam didn't make those mistakes, Christian Europe did.


Islam is still making the mistakes today that Christian Europe has consigned to history.

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The only difference is, you've somehow been deluded into believing those resistance actions are somehow even remotely comparable to the vast sea of evil atrocities Christian Europe committed throughout her history...


Duh. Of course they are remote. They are in the pages of history. Bali, 9/11, the London bombings, Benbrika etc, these are not remote. These are unfolding today. These are problems we still have. Trust me, if Christians were still burning witches at the stake I would get on your pedestal with you to decry them. But they aren't, and you just use the past acts that are not supported today to justify the barbarism that you do support.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #23 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 9:57pm
 
Quote:
Neither side really has justification for doing it, but if anyone is really in need of justification, it would have to be the Christian West, since they've been the most brutal killers of Muslims civilians for close to a millenium now.


Not brutal enough.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #24 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 10:07pm
 
Quote:
I take it that since Calanen was the one who tried to compare past Christian atrocities to alleged Islamic ones that this comment is directed at him.


Helian brought up the Inquisition.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #25 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 11:04pm
 
Quote:
Well I think it is slightly better than Nazism
(emphasis added)

Precisely. You put it in much the same category, even though it's never exhibited anything like the extreme inhumanity of Nazism, albeit on a slightly different rung of the same ladder.

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The fact that you persistently compare it to burning witches at the stake etc, as if that is supposed to make it look good, is troubling.


As already stated, I did not.

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Modernising: not stoning women to death


Islam no more stones *women* to death than it stones tall people or people with skin disorders to death. who just happen to be adulterers. Anyway this is an issue of death penalty, many countries you probably consider 'modern' today have the death penalty. If you opposed it on those grounds, I could perhaps see your point, but just saying "we think that crimes not worth the death penalty whilst these crimes are" is just hypocrisy.

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not overthrowing democratically elected governments to install a friendly* dictatorship
(*irrelevant term replaced)

Your 'modern' countries are the largest perpetrator of this kind of activity in the history of mankind, what a laugh... you'd be a funny fellow fd if your ideas weren't bordering on xenophobic hysteria.

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not killing apostates etc


As has been mentioned above, death penalty is the issue you should be discussing. Also treason (which is what apostasy is according to Islam) *IS* a capital offence in many 'modern' states.

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No it didn't. It ceased being a 'Christian' world


It's still the Christian world, they're just not as good Christians anymore.

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So invading Spain was a liberal idea?


Confusing foreign policy with liberalism is pretty disingenious.

Is the U.S.A not a liberal society, because it's invaded a whole swath of countries over the past century and continues to occupy quite a few of them?

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Islam is still making the mistakes today that Christian Europe has consigned to history


Islam never made those mistakes, and is certainly not making them today. and you well know it.

You've just been duped into thinking the WTC attacks were the most evil horrific events ever to occur in the history of mankind.

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Duh. Of course they are remote. They are in the pages of history. Bali, 9/11, the London bombings, Benbrika etc, these are not remote. These are unfolding today.


But they're nothing like the Inquisition, Crusades, Witchhunts etc. whatsoever.

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But they aren't, and you just use the past acts that are not supported today to justify the barbarism that you do support.


I do no such thing. I don't think it's possible to compare the two, as they are so dissimilar, both in proportion, motive, outcome etc. that comparing them would be a joke.

I do however think it's a good idea for you to sit down and rationally and objectively compare the historical behaviour of Islam to the historical behaviour of the Christian-West, and then compare them today, you'll find in both cases, Islam to be far less extreme, violent and aggressive than the Christian-West. If you're incapable of doing it solo, then we can go through it together and compare them.

What you continually do is compare historical Islam with modern day Christianity (this has gotta be the most disproportional and out of context comparison I've ever seen made) by claiming Islam is a violent doctrine based on it's historical implementation (conjecturing that any future implementation would have to be the same, when it's obvious fact a lot of it was due to the historical aggressiveness of Christianity and other civilisations), and then comparing it to Christianity which is so peaceful, benevolent or even downright impotent in the present age. Whilst making such blatant errors in your analysis of Islam, you will not be able to make clear and honest judgements about it.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #26 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 9:33am
 
Quote:
Precisely. You put it in much the same category, even though it's never exhibited anything like the extreme inhumanity of Nazism, albeit on a slightly different rung of the same ladder.


You frequently compare Islam to Nazism, burning witches etc. You put this idea in my head with your constant comparisons.

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Islam no more stones *women* to death than it stones tall people or people with skin disorders to death. who just happen to be adulterers. Anyway this is an issue of death penalty, many countries you probably consider 'modern' today have the death penalty.


I think there is a significant difference between stoning women to death and the death penalty. For example, it would be uncopnstitutional in the US as a 'cruel and unusual' punishment. Yes I do oppose the death penalty, but this is far more barbaric. Islam calls for members of the public to join in with the stoning. It demands that the death be slow and brutal to maximise the suffering. Also, I'm not a big fan of 'an eye for an eye' but this goes beyond that. Death for adultery is just absurd.

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If you opposed it on those grounds, I could perhaps see your point, but just saying "we think that crimes not worth the death penalty whilst these crimes are" is just hypocrisy.


It is not just the poor match between the punishment and the crime, it is they way Islam draws out the death to make it as cruel as possible.

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Your 'modern' countries are the largest perpetrator of this kind of activity


Is that supposed to make it OK to make a religion out of destroying democracy? I see these things as mistakes. You see them as God's will.

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As has been mentioned above, death penalty is the issue you should be discussing.


It is not for you to decide what I should discuss. Any punishment for apostasy is wrong. The fact that Islam calls for death just adds to the barbarity. I believe in freedom of religion. To me this is a more important issue than whether a country has the death penalty. So don't try to box me in and tell me what grounds I can criticise Islam on.

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Also treason (which is what apostasy is according to Islam) *IS* a capital offence in many 'modern' states.


Thanks, I had been wondering about that distinction. I see there is none.

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You've just been duped into thinking the WTC attacks were the most evil horrific events ever to occur in the history of mankind.


No I haven't.

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I do however think it's a good idea for you to sit down and rationally and objectively compare the historical behaviour of Islam to the historical behaviour of the Christian-West


Why? How would knowing all the details of our sordid history make me more accepting of someone who wants to treturn us to the dark ages? You seem to keep missing the point completely. I do not criticise Islam because of what happened 1000 years ago. I criticise Islam because of the ideology that you espouse today.

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and then compare them today, you'll find in both cases, Islam to be far less extreme, violent and aggressive than the Christian-West


I honestly do not understand why you think it benefits Islam to compare it with burning witches etc. I do not face a choice between Islam and the dark ages. I face a choice between Islam and the modern world. So do you. You are the one choosing barbarity, not me. The fact that islam might have been slightly less barbaric than neighbouring countries 1400 years ago is irrelevant to that choice. It would only make sense to consider it in its historical context if you were willling to leave it in its historical context. This is not about which past empire was the greatest. This is about the choices we make to day and the ideologies we adopt today. I choose democracy, freedom etc. You choose stoning people to death.

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What you continually do is compare historical Islam with modern day Christianity


I do no such thing. That is why I constantly ask you what Islamic ideology actually is. You just decided to refuse to answer, that's all. You deflect to history when I ask about the timeless aspects of Islam. Nor do I compare it with Christianity. It is the political aspects of Islam that concern me, so I compare timeless Islam to modern political movements, because that's the choice we have. I couldn't give a stuff how many times a day each religion expects you to pray. I try pretty hard to get you to discuss Islam in a modern context. You take every opportunity to deflect to history or anything else.

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by claiming Islam is a violent doctrine based on it's historical implementation


No Abu, I claim it is a violent doctrine because you think it is a good idea to stone women to death.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #27 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 9:38am
 
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It is the political aspects of Islam that concern me, so I compare timeless Islam to modern political movements, because that's the choice we have.


The best way to think of Islam is as a political party that spans borders, and committed to gaining power through destruction, with all of the members of the political party being geared up from birth through indoctrination in madrassas and Islamic schools to think of one thing and one thing only:

your destruction, infidel.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #28 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 10:05am
 

Btw fd I'm still interested in these "spoilt white kids" who supposedly blew up buses in London after converting to Islam, got any more information on them? did you overlook this request for clarification?
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #29 - Feb 9th, 2009 at 10:26am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Feb 9th, 2009 at 10:05am:
Btw fd I'm still interested in these "spoilt white kids" who supposedly blew up buses in London after converting to Islam, got any more information on them? did you overlook this request for clarification?


None of the people convicted or involved were whiteys from recollection. There were I believe converts involved in other plots, but not the London tube bombing or the London Bus Bombing attempt.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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