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Interpretation-That's what it's all about. (Read 13514 times)
mozzaok
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Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Feb 6th, 2009 at 10:43am
 
We see the majority of non-muslims expressing concern about Islam having a negative impact on our world, with some even believing that a violent confrontation, or even full scale war, between Islam, and the western world, as being inevitable.

These doomsayers use the behaviour of Islamist extremists to illustrate how Islamic teachings are forcing muslims down this path toward confrontation, by citing phrases about Jihad, and Dhimmitude, for non-muslims.

They also speak of Taqiyya, the practise of dissimulation, or deceit of non-muslims by muslims, to illustrate the unreliability of muslim claims of being a peaceful religion, or for more fully understanding much of the Islamic teachings that non-muslims interpret as being aggressive and war like, and even about the claimed goal of total world domination by Islam.

In reply to these accusations, we invariably hear muslims protest that the non-muslims have misinterpreted the religious texts, or taken them out of context, or that they are mistranslations, so who do we believe, and is there any way to get definitive answers to these questions from Islamic scholars?

This is the great sticking point, for even amongst Islamic scholars, there is disagreement in regard to interpreting just what any particular Islamic text actually says, and ultimately means.

We see muslims referring to bible passages to illustrate the hypocrisy of christian critics of Islam, by highlighting distasteful ideals, that are found in the Koran, that are also mirrored in the bible.

The great distinction that Islamic teachers refuse to accept is that very few christians treat the bible as a literal instruction manual, that must be followed word for word, but they expect muslims to follow the koran in just such a way.

Now if the muslims are supposed to follow the koran literally, then we have the problem of interpretation, again rear it's ugly head, because the exact same text that an Islamist will read to mean that cutting off the head of an infidel, and posting it on al-jazeera, is a blessed act, condoned by god, will be interpreted by another muslim to mean something completely different.

In fact the contradictory nature of some texts, where in one part it seems to promote, or condone one thing, but in another section, that same action is denounced, leads to this unreliability about just how to correctly interpret Islamic teachings, if any one can work out just how to do that, then we may be able to finally see a more positive version of Islam, come to light.
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Soren
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #1 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:33pm
 
We may have a problem of interpretation, they don't. Well, they are fighting it.
But the textual and comparative analysis of the koran and the hadiths have started, notably by non-muslim arabists, philologists and linguists as well as non arab muslims - see Prof. Muhammad Kalisch (trust the germans, with due respect - they destroyed the Roman empire, the Catholic Church, the British Empire and now Islam, by the looks of it.)

Once interpretation takes root, islam will collapse and will survive only in an unrecognisable form, if at all. After insisting for 1400 years that it is the unalterable word of good and that the koran actually exists in heaven, you don't have any wiggle room.

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« Last Edit: Feb 6th, 2009 at 7:45pm by Soren »  
 
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mozzaok
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #2 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:54pm
 
Yes, I know you are right Soren, but I have seen how easily Christians pick and mix whatever they want to believe about the bible, and I am hoping that muslims can do the same.
After all, it is all make believe anyway, so what difference does it really make?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #3 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 7:21pm
 
Quote:
They also speak of Taqiyya, the practise of dissimulation, or deceit of non-muslims by muslims, to illustrate the unreliability of muslim claims of being a peaceful religion, or for more fully understanding much of the Islamic teachings that non-muslims interpret as being aggressive and war like, and even about the claimed goal of total world domination by Islam.


My stance would be that Islam is somewhere in between these two claims.

Islam is neither absolutely peaceful, nor is it warmongering. It prefers peace, and calls all nations to be peaceful, but it leaves open the capacity to defend and use force when necessary. It is a well balanced attitude to war and peace, which is only logical that all human beings would need. People prefer to live in peace and strive to, but on the same token, they can't lay down like doormats and let people walk all over them and oppress and attack them as they please.

Until the West come to terms with this reality, and recognise the legitimate right of Muslims to defend themselves, then they will just continue to misunderstand Islam and promote extremist views one way or the other.

The stupidity of the 'warmongering' claims can be understood by examining their absolutist ultimatums that Islam either be all peaceful or all warmongering. They then go on to claim the peaceful verses are abrogated, and only the warmongering ones remain etc. It's all nonsense, Islam, like pretty much every other ideology on earth, strives for peace amongst humanity, but will not lay down and accept being a punching bag for anyone.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #4 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 7:30pm
 
Quote:
Islam is neither absolutely peaceful, nor is it warmongering. It prefers peace, and calls all nations to be peaceful, but it leaves open the capacity to defend and use force when necessary. It is a well balanced attitude to war and peace


Like when they had to defend themselves from the Spaniards?
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Soren
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #5 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 8:10pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:54pm:
Yes, I know you are right Soren, but I have seen how easily Christians pick and mix whatever they want to believe about the bible, and I am hoping that muslims can do the same.
After all, it is all make believe anyway, so what difference does it really make?



I don't think that it is all make believe in the sense that there is no difference between, say, Bonhoffer and a woodoo or aztec priest. There is, and a very important difference it is.

I think that people organise their societies along the lines of how they imagine the nature of the world and themselves in it as an ethical question of the first order (god and man, if you like, to speak the language of an earlier age.)

There is all the difference between religions, beliefs, doctrines as regards the nature of the relationship between human beings. This matters enormously and it is NOT true that one is as good as the next or that they are all make belief.

We must act and interact, so how we grasp the I-thou relationship is of utmost significance. Some are productive, heartening; others destructive, stifling. The difference matters.





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« Last Edit: Feb 6th, 2009 at 11:36pm by Soren »  
 
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #6 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 9:37pm
 
I must admit I could never get my head around the Islamic duality of fate and personal responsibility, especially when it comes to people under stress. It seems inevitable that some people considering doing the wrong thing would resign themselves to their fate, and that this psuchological resignation would be a barrier to them coming to their senses, or making the psycholigcally tougher choice to take the moral high ground. It makes personal responsiblity a technical, abstract concept that appears and disappears depending on how you look at it. Once people have decided on the moral low ground, it puts them in a position where they see the moral high ground as going against their fate and against God's will.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #7 - Feb 6th, 2009 at 11:17pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:54pm:
Yes, I know you are right Soren, but I have seen how easily Christians pick and mix whatever they want to believe about the bible, and I am hoping that muslims can do the same.
After all, it is all make believe anyway, so what difference does it really make?


Because in Islam, unlike Christianity, all the beliefs were settled as doctrine a long time ago. They are considered, beyond dispute. So there is no possibility of reformation. Certain Islamic scholars are preferred, and there is no room for debate.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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mozzaok
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #8 - Feb 7th, 2009 at 10:36am
 
Well galileo didn't find much room for debate, the christian ideas of the time were pretty fixed, but as humans evolved, they rejected some of the insanities of their religion, just because doing so improved their lives.

Why should we think muslims cannot do the same?

Sure as it stands now, it is as appealing as the spanish inquisition, but let's help them get past that, not box them into it for all time.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #9 - Feb 7th, 2009 at 11:21am
 
Calanen wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 11:17pm:
mozzaok wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:54pm:
Yes, I know you are right Soren, but I have seen how easily Christians pick and mix whatever they want to believe about the bible, and I am hoping that muslims can do the same.
After all, it is all make believe anyway, so what difference does it really make?


Because in Islam, unlike Christianity, all the beliefs were settled as doctrine a long time ago. They are considered, beyond dispute. So there is no possibility of reformation. Certain Islamic scholars are preferred, and there is no room for debate.

Now all you have to do is concoct an explanation for the historical actions and attitude of the Church towards perpetrators of the crime of heresy manifesting, for example, as the Inquisition and the doctrine of excommunication for heretical beliefs.
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Calanen
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #10 - Feb 7th, 2009 at 12:10pm
 
Quote:
Now all you have to do is concoct an explanation for the historical actions and attitude of the Church towards perpetrators of the crime of heresy manifesting, for example, as the Inquisition and the doctrine of excommunication for heretical beliefs.


We moved on. Islam doesn't.

More people died in the one day of the WTC attacks, than the entirety of the Spanish Inquisition.

Something to think about.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #11 - Feb 7th, 2009 at 3:01pm
 
Quote:
Sure as it stands now, it is as appealing as the spanish inquisition, but let's help them get past that, not box them into it for all time.


Mozz no-one else is boxing them in. They are doing it to themselves.

Quote:
and the doctrine of excommunication for heretical beliefs


Why is it that you chose that particular issue to make your point?
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #12 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 10:29am
 
Quote:
More people died in the one day of the WTC attacks, than the entirety of the Spanish Inquisition.


I think it'd be more reasonable to compare the WTC attacks with the crusades, not with the inquisition.

Let's do some comparisons shall we?

The Crusades began in the late 11th. century. On the way to the first Crusade, before even leaving Germany, German crusaders killed 2-3 times as many Jews as people were killed in WTC.

How many people in the WTC were eaten by those big bad nasty evil Muslims? Answer: None. Crusaders however, after besieging the town of Ma'arra and slaughtering about 20,000 odd civilians (what's that?? about 6 or 7 WTC's??) went on to eat the bodies of the dead. Some chroniclers reported out of hunger, others reported out of a desire to strike fear and terror into the hearts of the 'saracens'.

In 1098, the city of Antakya was taken by the Crusaders, over 100,000 Muslims perished. That's about 30 odd WTC's??

After arriving in al-Quds the Crusaders slaughtered over 70,000 Muslims, and on top of that all the Jews and most of their fellow Christians of the city. There's a good 25 WTC's for you.

Richard the Mouseheart, whom you seem to admire and respect massacred over 3,000 Muslim POW's, there's another WTC for you.

Now let's look at the 'internal' crusades, ie. Christians crusading against their fellow Christians...

The Albigensian Crusade resulted in the deaths of up to 1,000,000 Christians by many accounts. In one city alone, Beziers, up to 100,000 Cathars were massacred by their fellow Christians. So about 30 WTC's in just one city. And all up about 300 WTC's for that entire Crusade... not bad for an internal crusade I must say.

Btw, the Albigensian Crusade was the precursor to the Inquisition, the Crusade against the Cathars ended by forming the Inquisition, so you could pretty much count those 1,000,000 Cathars murdered in the initial 'military' aspect of the Inquisition (ie. the Albigensian Crusade) as being part of the Inquisition. Also some historians cite figures as high as 300,000 just for the Inquisition, the Catholic Church though does claim only 2000.

And the Protestants weren't much better. The witchhunts were the Protestant equivalent of the Internal Crusades/Inquisitions, in which some historians report up to 500,000 people were burned alive after being accused of witchery. In Europe as a total, some historians report up to 10,000,000. So all up close to about 3,000 WTC's.

After taking al-Andalus from the Muslims, the Christians bringing their englightened civilised ways to the Iberian peninsula set about causing a few 'WTCs' worth of damage to the Jews, Muslims and non-Catholic Christians. In Lisbon for instance in 1506, 3,000 Jews massacred, nice little WTC right there.

The list goes on and on, and the few isolated and desperate revenge attacks of a few scattered Muslims here and there cannot even hope to be compared to the massive scale of death and wanton destruction that Christians have caused all throughout their history. If anyone deserves your sarcastic "religion of peace" label it is Christianity. The religion that claims "turn the other cheek" but which in reality has killed millions upon millions of people down through the ages, and forced millions more to convert at the threat of death. Yet all we hear about is the last 5 minutes of the story,, of a few Muslims, who after years of colonialism, oppression, pillaging of their land and resources, constant and enduring political interference in their countries, finally say "enough is enough" and begin resisting, and you instantly claim it's the most evil brutal ideology on earth. Please put it into context, look at the history, and look at the quite obvious motives involved here.

Nothing can justify the deaths of innocent civilians, and Islam most certainly doesn't, it is striclty HARAAM (forbidden), but in reality, when you look at how many Muslim civilians the Christian world has killed, from the Crusades till now, the meagre Islamic response is really nothing. Neither side really has justification for doing it, but if anyone is really in need of justification, it would have to be the Christian West, since they've been the most brutal killers of Muslims civilians for close to a millenium now.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #13 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 10:32am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 7th, 2009 at 3:01pm:
Why is it that you chose that particular issue to make your point?

Because Christianity has not moved on. All the texts are exactly as they were at least 1500 years ago. Adherence to them waxes and wanes over centuries depending on the attitudes of the faithful. The current Pope (and his predecessor) is proceeding towards a conservative (and perhaps ultra-conservative) Church. If the détente sought with Orthodox and Protestant denominations results in their return to the Holy See and if the rate of lapse seen over the last few decades reverses, the world will see a Church once more passing censorious judgments on unsanctioned individual liberties and heterodoxy.

Most significantly, a revitalised and strong Church would see it standing as a formidable force against Islam.

And one that Islam instinctively respects and comprehends.
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Re: Interpretation-That's what it's all about.
Reply #14 - Feb 8th, 2009 at 12:18pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 7:21pm:
......Islam is neither absolutely peaceful, nor is it warmongering. It prefers peace, and calls all nations to be peaceful, but it leaves open the capacity to defend and use force when necessary. It is a well balanced attitude to war and peace, which is only logical that all human beings would need. People prefer to live in peace and strive to, but on the same token, they can't lay down like doormats and let people walk all over them and oppress and attack them as they please.






".......[ISLAM] calls [on] all nations to be 'peaceful',"



You should 1st understand, how ISLAM defines 'Peace'.

ISLAM defines 'Peace', as submission to Allah / ISLAM.

To all devout muslims, so long a 'unbelief' remains in the world, there can be no 'Peace' with 'unbelievers'.




The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia
, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh is the ISLAMIC equivalent of 'The Archbishop of Canterbury' in Saudi Arabia,
.....here he explains how all mankind can achieve peace with ISLAM.....

All 'unbelieving' nations must surrender to ISLAM!

"ISLAM IS INDOCTRINATED SUPREMACISM"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226363739/0#0








FURTHER......

N.B. ....FROM AN ISLAMIC SITE,

A renowned ISLAMIC 'philosopher' here explains how muslims are to conduct themselves in their co-existance with non-muslim societies.....


"THE RIGHT TO JUDGE"
"It is not the function of Islam to compromise with the concepts of Jahiliyya which are current in the world or to co-exist in the same land together with a jahili system........"
by SAYYID QUTB
http://www.islamworld.net/justice.html

Sayyid Qutb, was a renowned ISLAMIC 'philosopher', who was executed in Egypt [1966] for encouraging an ISLAMIC revolt against the Egyptian govt.

Jahiliyya = = an un-ISLAMIC lifestyle.


"....Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyya#Jahiliyya_in_contemporary_society





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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