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Iran launches its first satellite (Read 7361 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #15 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 2:06am
 

mozzaok,

Your post seemed to insinuate Muslims don't believe in a Caliphate, we do.

I'm saying it quite clearly and frankly for you.

However taking over the world is a bit of a different issue. Of course Islam is a proselytising religion, so we do seek to expand, no doubt. But that's a little different from world domination.

If you look seriously at which civilisation/nation/country is vying for world domination today, you'll find it across the other side of the Pacific, not north west in the Middle East.

It seems the debate is about which civilisation you suspect of holding some dream of world domination, and which civilisation is actually carrying it out...
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #16 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 11:30am
 
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A Caliphate is merely a state ruled by Islam


It is a bit more than that, as the last empire showed. You also tried to make out that crossing the mediterranean to conquer Spain was a defensive move.

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the fact Muslims desire to live under it says nothing about conspiracy theories that Muslims are trying to take over the world


Yes it does. It's like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, except that it is real.

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Of course Islam is a proselytising religion, so we do seek to expand, no doubt. But that's a little different from world domination.


It was not Islamic doctrine that stopped the last Caliphate from taking over the world. It was merely their practical inability to do so. It is not the fact that Islam is a prselytising religion that is the problem. It is the fact that Islam is an expansionist military empire. It spreads by denying people freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of dress.

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If you look seriously at which civilisation/nation/country is vying for world domination today, you'll find it across the other side of the Pacific, not north west in the Middle East.


Crap. They are the ones that are currently in a position to be able to do so. But they aren't, are they? It is democracy that is spreading to Iraq and Afghanistan, not America. The US army is going to pull out. It has no interest in expanding in the way the Caliphate did. It is a good thing the last Caliphate was crushed. I'd much rather have the US in a position of power than than Osama.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #17 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 12:03am
 
Quote:
It is a bit more than that, as the last empire showed


Well that was the 'age of empires', any state that didn't behave as an empire simply didn't exist... Are Muslims to be blamed for holding their own in the times in which they lived?

Like most of your arguments against Islam, bollocks.

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You also tried to make out that crossing the mediterranean to conquer Spain was a defensive move.


I did? I think your recollection is a little tainted.

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Yes it does. It's like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, except that it is real


Like with those who harp on about the protocols, you are an irrational Islamophobic conspiracy theorist, when it comes to Muslims.

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It was not Islamic doctrine that stopped the last Caliphate from taking over the world. It was merely their practical inability to do so.


Or perhaps the possibility that Islam isn't out to dominate the world?

One could also say the reason the Austro-Hungarian empire or the Napoleonic empire or the Prussian etc. etc. empires didn't take over the world, was not because they didn't want to, but because of their practical inability to do so... and the point of that would be?

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It is not the fact that Islam is a prselytising religion that is the problem


No, it *is* the problem and you know it. The number of Aussies converting to Islam each year is of far more concern to you and most other islamophobes than al-Qaeda or JI are. And you know it.

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It is the fact that Islam is an expansionist military empire


Again, you constantly refer to historical implementations of Islam, and then claim that you're not comparing Islam of old to today. You *must* come to the realisation that in those days, inter-state relations dictated the way in which states structured themselves, as it does today. Today is not the 'age of empires', and so the future implementation of a Caliphate would not resemble an empire. The most likely structure would be a union of member states, something like the EU. Not that it's relevant to this conversation anyway, as you're speaking about hysterical fantasy, not reality.

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It spreads by denying people freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of dress.


Nope, it spreads by people recognising the truth of it, and embracing it.

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They are the ones that are currently in a position to be able to do so. But they aren't, are they?


Sure coulda fooled me.

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It is democracy that is spreading to Iraq and Afghanistan, not America.


As states are not organised into empires today, neither is colonialism carried out through direct rule (not permanently anyway). It's you who needs to get with the times fd, not Islam. Modernise your view of the way the world works.

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It has no interest in expanding in the way the Caliphate did


When will you cease comparing the West of today with Islam of old?

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It is a good thing the last Caliphate was crushed.


I'm well aware of your hostility to Islamic civilisation, no need to so bluntly express it.

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I'd much rather have the US in a position of power than than Osama.


Since you share their ideology, that's not surprising.

Osama has just been placed in a difficult time and set of circumstances that's all, even his former hunter Michael Scheuer claims him to be a great leader. I'm sure if he was born under a Caliphate, he would've been more famous than infamous.
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #18 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 2:39pm
 
Quote:
Well that was the 'age of empires', any state that didn't behave as an empire simply didn't exist... Are Muslims to be blamed for holding their own in the times in which they lived?


They are to blame to trying to bring the same barabaric standards into the 21st century. Democracy was not unheard of back then. Yet Islam saw fit to forbid it in favour of dictatorship.

Why is it that you are so afraid to explain islamic concepts on spoils of war?

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Like with those who harp on about the protocols, you are an irrational Islamophobic conspiracy theorist, when it comes to Muslims.


what is irrational about my opposition to Islamism? Surely if it was irrational, you would be able to explain Islamic law, rather than creating as many barriers as possible to the truth about Islam.

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Or perhaps the possibility that Islam isn't out to dominate the world?


All proselytising religions are out to dominate the world. It's the methods of Islam that make it unconscionable.

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One could also say the reason the Austro-Hungarian empire or the Napoleonic empire or the Prussian etc. etc. empires didn't take over the world, was not because they didn't want to, but because of their practical inability to do so... and the point of that would be?


The point would be that turning these empires into a religion and trying to apply their standards today would be absurd. Yes they were all nasty empires that went round slaughtering people. But Islam is the only one you try to make excuses for and try to misrepresent.

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No, it *is* the problem and you know it.


No it isn't. I don't have a problem with other proselytising religions. I don't even ahve a problem with non-proselytising ones like Judaism. It's the methods Islam uses that makes it barbaric.

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Again, you constantly refer to historical implementations of Islam, and then claim that you're not comparing Islam of old to today.


Abu, perhaps if you didn't try so hard to conceal the truth about Islamic concepts on spoils of war etc then I could take you seriously, but I would be naive to simply take your word that an Islamic dictatorship would be all lovey dovey today, or next century. Islam as an empire would not adapt, it would drag the world back to the age of empires.

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Nope, it spreads by people recognising the truth of it, and embracing it.


Crap Abu. If what you say is true, Islam would not call for the death of Apostates, it would not call for military conquest and the imposition of second class citizenship on captured non-Muslims. It would not deny people freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of choice. It would allow freedom. Instead it puts up with freedom when it has no choice, then takes freedom away and imposes Islam by force as soon as it is capable. Islam claims to support freedom of religion, but it has no concept of what freedom is, other than freedom to die.

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Sure coulda fooled me.


The US is not going to make Iraq and Afghanistan part of it's empire. To claim so i simply a denial of reality. They are giving the local people democracy and self determination. This is nothing at all like what the barbaric Islamic empire of the past did.

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It's you who needs to get with the times fd, not Islam. Modernise your view of the way the world works.


It is the way Islam works that cocnerns me. It is your attempts to conceal the truth about it that cocnerns me. If you want me to 'adapt' my view of Islam, try giving straight answers to simple questions. Otherwise I can only conclude that you ahve something to hide and a good reason for hiding it. If Islam won't drop stoning women to death, killing apostates, denying free speech, what chance does it have of dropping militant expansionism? By your own words and the actions of Muslims around the world we have seen how Islam would twist reality and respond inappropriately so as to make military conflict inevitable. A new Caliphate would either be crushed or expand.

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Osama has just been placed in a difficult time and set of circumstances that's all


Grin poor old Osama. Is this supposed to make me less concerned about your beloved Islamic dictatorship?

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even his former hunter Michael Scheuer claims him to be a great leader. I'm sure if he was born under a Caliphate, he would've been more famous than infamous.


People call Hitler a great leader. Newsflash Abu, it does not mean 'good'. Though I can understand how Islam would fail to make that distinction.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #19 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:05pm
 
Quote:
They are to blame to trying to bring the same barabaric standards into the 21st century.


The Islamic empire was not the last empire to be dismantled...

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Democracy was not unheard of back then. Yet Islam saw fit to forbid it in favour of dictatorship.


Islam was unfortunately caught up in a hereditary system of government. However, it was for most of it's history a more advanced one than it's European counterparts. It was more like the monarchies of today, where the monarch was an official head of state, but the government was mostly run by a cabinet of ministers (wazirs). Unfortunately it didn't play catch up in the end, we can agree on that. The difference between democracy and dictatorship is a false dichotomy. Islam is neither of those systems.

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Why is it that you are so afraid to explain islamic concepts on spoils of war?


I'm not afraid of explaining anything fd. I've explained it already, and have posted a very lengthy scholarly article about it in the common misconceptions thread, just because it doesn't particularly take your fancy doesn't mean the information hasn't been presented.

Besides Islam is more than honest about it's texts, you can find them across thousands of sites (Islamic sites, not jihadwatch), translated into English.

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All proselytising religions are out to dominate the world. It's the methods of Islam that make it unconscionable.


Both Islam and Christianity did it in the past by forming empires.. yet you only believe Islam is like that... Ok.

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Yes they were all nasty empires that went round slaughtering people


I disagree, I don't think they were necessarily nasty, just a product of their times. That's just the way things were back then.

Have you seen the PBS documentary called "Empire of Faith"? If not, I'd advise watching it. They capture this quite well when they say "In a time when even prophets bore arms", or something along those lines.

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No it isn't. I don't have a problem with other proselytising religions.


That would be because you're a bigot.

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It's the methods Islam uses that makes it barbaric.


*used* in a time when the rest of the world was far more barbaric.

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Islam as an empire would not adapt, it would drag the world back to the age of empires.


It wouldn't be able to. It simply wouldn't even be able to eventuate back into the old paradigm. By necessity it must adapt to the new geo-political climate.

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Nope, it spreads by people recognising the truth of it, and embracing it.
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Crap Abu. If what you say is true, Islam would not call for the death of Apostates


That's the equivalent of saying American freedom isn't embraced by the people themselves, otherwise they wouldn't need the death penalty for treason... Someone's peddling crap here, but it ain't me.

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The US is not going to make Iraq and Afghanistan part of it's empire


As we discussed the 'age of empires' has indeed passed. That doesn't mean colonialism doesn't still exist in another form. As I said, it's no longer carried out by direct rule, not permanently anyway.

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They are giving the local people democracy and self determination.


Yeh the U.S is purely there for altruistic and benevolent reasons...

Dreamer.

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This is nothing at all like what the barbaric Islamic empire of the past did.


The Islamic empire was not imperialistic in the sense all European powers were. Lands that came under Islam were given the exact same status as any other land. The citizens given the same status as all other citizens. They weren't just slaves of the monarch as they were in European empires, with no ability to benefit from the empire's resources and systems. The only way an Indian for instance had any hope of travelling around the empire they were supposedly part of, was by being convicted of a petty crime, then being transported as a convict.

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It is your attempts to conceal the truth about it that cocnerns me.


As has been repeatedly stated, I've not concealed anything from you. *ALL* aspects of Islam are openly available all over the place. Unlike some other religions, namely Judaism, the teachings of Islam are open and welcome for all to peruse. The fact I was unable to answer some more detailed or loaded questions about Islam, doesn't mean I've concealed anything. Just means I recognise I'm not qualified to answer them.

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Otherwise I can only conclude that you ahve something to hide and a good reason for hiding it


Conclude as you like, most of your current views on Islam are based on your wayward conclusions anyway. Even when you find the answers you want, you're still going to draw your own conclusions from them anyway..

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If Islam won't drop stoning women to death, killing apostates, denying free speech, what chance does it have of dropping militant expansionism?


Capital punishment is prescribed in the Islamic texts, militant expansionism is not, that's why.

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A new Caliphate would either be crushed or expand.


With fanatical attitudes from non-Muslims like this, perhaps.
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #20 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:34pm
 
Abu, you have done and are doing more damage to the cause of islam than everyone else here, combined.

And you are blind to this.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are a numbnut or Mossad.

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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #21 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:51pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:34pm:
Abu, you have done and are doing more damage to the cause of islam than everyone else here, combined.

And you are blind to this.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are a numbnut or Mossad.



Actually, he's doing us proud, and making you lot look foolish at the same time.

Though making you look foolish really isn't that hard to do. Smiley
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #22 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 10:00pm
 
Lestat wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:51pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:34pm:
Abu, you have done and are doing more damage to the cause of islam than everyone else here, combined.

And you are blind to this.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are a numbnut or Mossad.



Actually, he's doing us proud, and making you lot look foolish at the same time.

Though making you look foolish really isn't that hard to do. Smiley



Numbnut, then. With you Lizzie in his corner, no question.

Unless you are Mossad too.  Very cunning. This is why you guys are winning everywhere. The intellect.




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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #23 - Feb 12th, 2009 at 10:21pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 10:00pm:
Lestat wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:51pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 8:34pm:
Abu, you have done and are doing more damage to the cause of islam than everyone else here, combined.

And you are blind to this.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are a numbnut or Mossad.



Actually, he's doing us proud, and making you lot look foolish at the same time.

Though making you look foolish really isn't that hard to do. Smiley



Numbnut, then. With you Lizzie in his corner, no question.

Unless you are Mossad too.  Very cunning. This is why you guys are winning everywhere. The intellect.


lol...Lizzie. Is this the best you can come up. Reflects actually on how stupid you are.

And the sad thing you actually think its clever.

BWAHAHAHAHA

No, we're winning because we have morons like you to contend with. Small play really, we just let you continously shoot yourself in the foot.

Cheesy


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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #24 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 8:26am
 
Quote:
Abu, you have done and are doing more damage to the cause of islam than everyone else here, combined


soren, coming from you, a dedicated Islamophobe from the first time we ever interacted, that doesn't really mean much to me.

If however it came from an objective observer, who could've been swayed either way, then I might take it a little more seriously. Still, it wouldn't cause me to sway from the truth anyway. The truth is the truth, those who are turned away from it, are those who are hardened against the truth.
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #25 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:07pm
 
Quote:
The Islamic empire was not the last empire to be dismantled...


So what?

Quote:
Islam was unfortunately caught up in a hereditary system of government. However, it was for most of it's history a more advanced one than it's European counterparts.


So Islam is backwards now?

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Unfortunately it didn't play catch up in the end, we can agree on that.


Why do you expect it to play catch-up in the future?

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The difference between democracy and dictatorship is a false dichotomy. Islam is neither of those systems.


It is not a democracy. Just because the clerics try to pull the strings from behind the scenes does not mean it isn't a dictatorship.

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I'm not afraid of explaining anything fd. I've explained it already


No you didn't. If you had, I wouldn't have such basic questions going unanswered. The value of an explanation is whether it answers the audience's questions. You seem to have a completely different standard - stuff the audience, they will hear what I want them to hear and nothing more.

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and have posted a very lengthy scholarly article about it in the common misconceptions thread


You mean a link? Or did you manage to copy and paste a 'lengthy article'?

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just because it doesn't particularly take your fancy doesn't mean the information hasn't been presented


I want straight answers to simple questions Abu, that is all. Not lengthy answers to convenient made up questions that avoid the issue.

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Besides Islam is more than honest about it's texts, you can find them across thousands of sites (Islamic sites, not jihadwatch), translated into English.


Like on Answering Islam? Islam is not a person. Muslims seem far from honest about the texts. I don't want to spend ten years studying Islam to get some basic facts. I am trying to bridge the gap between what Muslims want people to know about Islam and what critics fear about Islam. I cannot do that if Muslims won't give honest answers. Is it any wonder that so many wild accusations about Islam get taken seriously when Muslims themselves fear to broach certain topics?

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Both Islam and Christianity did it in the past by forming empires.. yet you only believe Islam is like that... Ok.


I believe that only Islam makes a doctrine out of building an expansionist military empire. This is not just a comparison with Christianity. It is a comparison with all religions. Islam is unique in commanding its spread by the sword. That is not the same as saying only Muslims actually did that, but it is true that Islam is the only religion that creates a doctrinal barrier to the end of such barbarity. It is the only religion intent on dragging that barbarity into the modern world.

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I disagree, I don't think they were necessarily nasty, just a product of their times. That's just the way things were back then.


The fact that they were a product of their times does not mean it wasn't nasty.

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They capture this quite well when they say "In a time when even prophets bore arms", or something along those lines.


Did Jesus go round killing people? Did Moses? Did Budda?

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Quote:
No it isn't. I don't have a problem with other proselytising religions.


That would be because you're a bigot.


I am a bigot because I don't have a rpoblem with proselytising religions? Can you explain that please?

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*used* in a time when the rest of the world was far more barbaric


Abu, you yourself say you support stoning women to death. Our world is not that barbaric. So quit this stupid cop-out about Islam only being barbaric because of it's time. Remember, that argument only makes sense if you want to leave Islam in its barbaric past, not inflict it upon the modern world.

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It wouldn't be able to. It simply wouldn't even be able to eventuate back into the old paradigm.


Why not? Are you saying another 'evil empire' could never arise again? It's been less than a century since the Nazis tried to take over the world. That's a bit naive don't you think?

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That's the equivalent of saying American freedom isn't embraced by the people themselves, otherwise they wouldn't need the death penalty for treason... Someone's peddling crap here, but it ain't me.


Crap Abu. The US does not call for the death penalty of those who think freedom and democracy is a bad idea. Islam does call for the death penalty of those who reject Islam. It is not the same thing. Only Islam turns apostasy into a crime and punishes it with death. Like I said, Apostasy is not treason. The fact that Islam refuses to recognise the difference does not mean that Islam's death penalty for apostasy can be equated with America's penalty for treasoin.

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The Islamic empire was not imperialistic in the sense all European powers were.


Yes it was.

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Lands that came under Islam were given the exact same status as any other land. The citizens given the same status as all other citizens.


EXcept it never actually happened that way in practice did it? And Dhimmis are given second class status, not the 'exact same' status. Islam creates an Apartheid regime.
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #26 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:08pm
 
Quote:
The fact I was unable to answer some more detailed or loaded questions about Islam


They were not loaded questions Abu. I ahve pointed out to you before what the term loaded question actually means. It does not mean controversial. It does not mean a question whose answer you don't want to give. They are very simple questions. You even said you'd answer one if I played your silly game with you, but you never kept your word.

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Capital punishment is prescribed in the Islamic texts, militant expansionism is not, that's why
.

So the 'liberation' of Spain was not military expansionism? Or is this just another example of you changing the English language to make Islam seem more politically correct? Why did you keep bringing up Spain as an example of how 'nicely' Islam slaughtered people?
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #27 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 4:21pm
 
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No, it *is* the problem and you know it. The number of Aussies converting to Islam each year is of far more concern to you and most other islamophobes than al-Qaeda or JI are. And you know it.


That's not a concern to me at all. If the proverbial hits the fan, I'll have no trouble rounding up and dealing appropriately with you traitor Islamic fanboys.

What is of greater concern to me are the Islamic nations of Malaysia and Indonesia on our doorsteps, who could get fundie governments at some stage and decide that they need to bring the great aloha snackbar jihad down here.

If that happens, we can count on all of the muslims living in our community to be loyal to the Malaysian and Indonesian troops invading, meaning that they will need to be interned, and those who actually have helped - be shot.

Will happen one day. Just a question of when.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #28 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 4:25pm
 
The US only has the death penalty lawfully for the following crimes:

- certain crimes in the Uniform Code of Military Justice, applicable to the military;

- crimes involving death (various, murder, terrorism etc);

- espionage involving nuclear secrets and treason.

- penalty of death for rape in Louisiana recently ruled unconstitutional. Pity.

None of the above is remotely comparable in terms of moral culpability to killing someone for 'blasphemy the prophet' or changing your religion.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Re: Iran launches its first satellite
Reply #29 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 4:43pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13th, 2009 at 8:26am:
Quote:
Abu, you have done and are doing more damage to the cause of islam than everyone else here, combined


soren, coming from you, a dedicated Islamophobe from the first time we ever interacted



As I said then and sadly need to repeat it now:

Soren wrote on Aug 14th, 2008 at 10:10pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 13th, 2008 at 10:04am:
to incite hatred towards Islam


The next guy who says this is a rotten egg.

No-one does more to stoke this particular sentiment then muslims.  Enough of this empty, shop-soiled, double-talk cliche.

With the greatest respect.




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