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Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists (Read 8056 times)
abu_rashid
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Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:13am
 
It's quite ironic that most of the supporters of Zionism here are also anti-immigration... How do the Zionist supporters feel about the way Zionists took over Palestine? As detailed below. Does it square up with how you think immigrants to a nation should treat their 'hosts'? Would you advise Muslims coming to Australia to take lessons from the Zionist methodology? Since after all you do support Zionism and therefore consider it to be a good practise to emulate right???  Smiley

-----

Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote:

    But the major cause of tension and violence throughout the period 1882-1914 was not accidents, misunderstandings or the attitudes and behaviors of either side, but objective historical conditions and the conflicting interests and goals of the two populations. The Arabs sought instinctively to retain the Arab and Muslim character of the region and to maintain their position as its rightful inhabitants; the Zionists sought radically to change the status quo, buy as much land as possible, settle on it, and eventually turn an Arab-populated country into a Jewish homeland.

    For decades the Zionists tried to camouflage their real aspirations, for fear of angering the authorities and the Arabs. They were, however, certain of their aims and of the means needed to achieve them. Internal correspondence amongst the olim from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise leaves little room for doubt.


Morris provides excerpts from three letters written in 1882 by these first arrivals:

    * Vladimir (Ze'ev) Dubnow, one of the Biluim wrote to his brother, the historian Simon Dubnow, in October 1882: "The ultimate goal ... is, in time, to take over the Land of Israel and to restore to the Jews the political independence they have been deprived of for these two thousand years .... The Jews will yet arise and, arms in hand (if need be), declare that they are the masters of their ancient homeland." (Dubnow himself shortly afterward returned to Russia.)
    * Ben-Yehuda, who settled in Jerusalem in September 1881, wrote in July 1882 to Peretz Smolenskin in Vienna: "The thing we must do now is to become as strong as we can, to conquer the country, covertly, bit by bit ... We will not set up committees so that the Arabs will know what we are after, we shall act like silent spies, we shall buy, buy, buy."
    * In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michael Pines, who had arrived in Palestine in 1878, wrote to Rashi Pin, in Vilna: "We have made it a rule not to say too much, except to those ... we trust ... the goal is to revive our nation on its land ... if only we succeed in increasing our numbers here until we are the majority [Emphasis in original] .... There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones."
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abu_rashid  
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Yadda
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #1 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:25am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:13am:
.....Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote:




abu,

Oh,

You mean that Benny Morris?

"The New Historians are a loosely-defined group of Israeli historians who have published histories of expulsions of Palestinians by Israel in 1948, expropriations of Palestinian property, and/or campaigns of ethnic cleansing by Israel in and around 1948. Much of their primary source material comes from declassified Israeli government papers. The movement includes scholars such as Benny Morris......"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians


Benny Morris has bee proven biased, inaccurate, a false witness, a falsifier of facts.....


".....I noticed a glaring contradiction between the English and Hebrew renditions of an October 1937 letter from David Ben-Gurion to his son. The English version had Ben-Gurion say: "We must expel Arabs and take their places"; the Hebrew edition represented him as saying precisely the opposite.
An examination of the original document
unequivocally settled the matter. It read: "We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their place. All our aspiration is built on the assumption proven throughout all our activity that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
To ascertain whether this was an isolated case of misrepresentation or a pervasive phenomenon, I undertook to carefully examine all the documentation used by Mr. Morris with regard to early Zionist attitudes toward the Arabs. In quick time, I was taken aback by the systematic falsification of evidence aimed at casting Zionism as "a colonizing and expansionist ideology and movement... intent on politically, or even physically, dispossessing and supplanting the Arabs." This ranged from the more "innocent" act of reading into documents what was not there, to tendentious truncation of source material in a way that distorted its original meaning, to rewriting of original texts to say what they did not mean, as he did with Ben-Gurion's aforementioned letter. ....."
http://www.think-israel.org/karsh.fightover1948.html




Try again, abu.

The TRUTH will out.




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #2 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:41am
 

Benny Morris is an Israeli historian, plenty of other Israeli historians have begun telling the truth also, some of them often get firebombed in their homes for doing that, by their fellow Jews... wait only Muslims do that, don't they??

The quote of Ben-Gurion as Morris relayed it is much more in line with Ben-Gurion's views. He was a proponent of 'transfer policy', so it's quite obvious he'd be more likely saying we must expel them, that saying there's no need to.

For example, this little gem of a speech:

The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.

1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)

Not only was he intent on taking all of Palestine for Jews, but Transjordan was on the horizon as well.
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abu_rashid  
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Yadda
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #3 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:49am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:41am:
Benny Morris is an Israeli historian, plenty of other Israeli historians have begun telling the truth also, some of them often get firebombed in their homes for doing that, by their fellow Jews... wait only Muslims do that, don't they??

The quote of Ben-Gurion as Morris relayed it is much more in line with Ben-Gurion's views. He was a proponent of 'transfer policy', so it's quite obvious he'd be more likely saying we must expel them, that saying there's no need to.

For example, this little gem of a speech:

The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.

1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)

Not only was he intent on taking all of Palestine for Jews, but Transjordan was on the horizon as well.




'Transjordan'?, 'Transjordan'?

Oh, you mean Transjordan, the land of Transjordan which is east of the river Jordan?

You mean that land east of the river Jordan, THAT WAS SET ASIDE BY WORLD POWERS AFTER WWI, FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE ?

That Transjordan?

Aka, Edom.





Idumea = = Edom = = Jordan = = 'Palestinians'

"Bible verses you like"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1214199336/75#75




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« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2009 at 11:06am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #4 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 7:12pm
 
Quote:
THAT WAS SET ASIDE BY WORLD POWERS AFTER WWI, FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE ?


Firstly, it has nothing to do with the fact Ben Gurion wanted to enact transfer policy from Transjordan as well. Which clearly shows he did NOT believe in merely living amongst the Arabs.

Secondly, The myth of Transjordan being "The Arab state" for Palestinians is just a load of Zionist garbage which has been clearly refuted and proved to be fallacy several times by me here. Unless you're a bit like Grendel and can't admit when the facts have overcome your argument?

Transjordan was merely lumped in with the Mandate of Palestine for 1 year, and only officially, it was never actually governed as part of the Mandate of Palestine, it was governed seperately. Also nowhere can you find any document, map, plan that suggests the Jews were to get all the land West of the Jordan (i.e Palestine) which the Arabs should be 'transferred' West of the Jordan into Transjordan. This was merely a Zionist desire, as has been noted in Ben Gurion's and others' writings.

All partition plans either included a small Jewish homeland contained within an Arab Palestinian state (West of the Jordan) or, two states roughly equal in size.
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #5 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:25pm
 
Quote:
It's quite ironic that most of the supporters of Zionism here are also anti-immigration...


Perhaps it's time for you to give your definition of Zionism, seeing as you throw the term around so freely. Is anyone who supports Israel's right to exist a Zionist?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #6 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 4:11am
 
Zionism is National Socialist ideology of the Jewish people. It is an extreme form of Jewish nationalism, believing the Jewish race (not religion) should have a state purely for their race. It is a racist ideology.

A Zionist supporter is anyone who supports the existence of a state based on Zionism, yes.
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Yadda
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #7 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:28am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 4:11am:
Zionism is National Socialist ideology of the Jewish people.
It is an extreme form of Jewish nationalism, believing the Jewish race (not religion) should have a state purely for their race. It is a racist ideology.


A Zionist supporter is anyone who supports the existence of a state based on Zionism, yes.




Racist, like the Japanese determining who should live in Japan, is racist?

Racist, like the Fijians determining who should live in, and govern Fiji, is racist?




And before you 'come at me' with,
"What about Aboriginal Australian's, doesn't Australia belong to them? And don't Aboriginal's have a right to determine who comes to Australia? And shouldn't you Anglo's leave?"



Yes abu, we are all 'racists', to some degree.

Only some racists, are clearly much more rabid than others.

If you would like to be exposed to some rabid racism, read this news report about how black muslims are racially abused in Saudi Arabia.....



April 21, 2007
How a British jihadi saw the light

Ed Hussain, once a proponent of radical Islam in London, tells how his time as a teacher in Saudi Arabia led him to turn against extremism
.......A non-Saudi black student I had met at the British Council accompanied me. “Last week a woman gave birth here,” he said, pointing to a ramshackle cardboard shanty. Disturbed, I now realised that the materials I had seen those women carrying were not always for sale but for shelter.
I had never expected to see such naked poverty in Saudi Arabia.
At that moment it dawned on me that Britain, my home, had given refuge to thousands of black Africans from Somalia and Sudan: I had seen them in their droves in Whitechapel. They prayed, had their own mosques, were free and were given government housing.
Many Muslims enjoyed a better lifestyle in non-Muslim Britain than they did in Muslim Saudi Arabia.
At that moment I longed to be home again.
All my talk of ummah seemed so juvenile now. It was only in the comfort of Britain that Islamists could come out with such radical utopian slogans as one government, one ever expanding country, for one Muslim nation. The racist reality of the Arab psyche would never accept black and white people as equal.
.......Racism was an integral part of Saudi society. My students often used the word “black person” to describe black people. Even dark-skinned Arabs were considered inferior to their lighter-skinned cousins. I was living in the world’s most avowedly Muslim country, yet I found it anything but. I was appalled by the imposition of Wahhabism in the public realm, something I had implicitly sought as an Islamist.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_ext...



The racism of [a minority] Australians pales into insignificance, when you discover the discriminatory, and exploitative racism which is being practised today, by Allah's finest.

Why do muslims practice such discrimination???

Because Allah tells them, that they are empowered to discriminate.

The Koran is contradictory, but empowering to the worst in the Arab psyche.




"Ye [muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.110


"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.021


"......Sad said, "Kill their (men) warriors and take their offspring as captives, "On that the Prophet said, "You have judged according to Allah's Judgment,""
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.0...


"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/001.qmt.html#001.001





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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freediver
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #8 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:33am
 
So anyone who support's Israel's right to exist is a zionist?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #9 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:03pm
 
Yadda,

That post contradicts most of your other posts. You've posted that Muslims stick together to the exclusion of others, now you've posted an article showing that Saudi Arabia doesn't subscribe and instead discriminates against Muslims based on their ethnicity. You can't have it both ways. Either Saudi Arabia follow Shari'ah law, or they don't, which is it?

freediver,

Anyone who supports the existence of the Zionist entity, would be a supporter of Zionism... Are you having trouble grasping the difference between a Zionist and a supporter of Zionism? A Zionist is actively engaged in carrying out the Zionist objectives of transferring the Arabs out of Palestine and settling it as a Jewish-only state (This includes many American Christians, not just Jews). A Zionist supporter on the other hand are people who defend and protect the Zionists and try to justify their actions to the world.
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #10 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:06pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:03pm:
Yadda,

That post contradicts most of your other posts. You've posted that Muslims stick together to the exclusion of others, now you've posted an article showing that Saudi Arabia doesn't subscribe and instead discriminates against Muslims based on their ethnicity. You can't have it both ways. Either Saudi Arabia follow Shari'ah law, or they don't, which is it?

freediver,

Anyone who supports the existence of the Zionist entity, would be a supporter of Zionism... Are you having trouble grasping the difference between a Zionist and a supporter of Zionism? A Zionist is actively engaged in carrying out the Zionist objectives of transferring the Arabs out of Palestine and settling it as a Jewish-only state (This includes many American Christians, not just Jews). A Zionist supporter on the other hand are people who defend and protect the Zionists and try to justify their actions to the world.



Well, I do support Israel's right to exist. Do your worst, bearded son of Muhhamed.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #11 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:06pm
 
Anyway Freediver, care to comment on the original post? I take it you're a supporter of Zionism, perhaps not the most active one, but still a supporter nonetheless. Would you advise Muslims in the Diaspora to emulate the methodology of Zionists in their host countries? Or do you find their methodologies to be detestable and an insult and hostile act towards the 'host country'?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #12 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:09pm
 
You're entitled to your opinion soren. However please don't falsify my lineage.

Anyway care to comment on the original post? How would you feel about Muslims in the Diaspora emulating the methodologies of Zionism? After all it was quite successful and you seem to support it and think it's a great way to achieve one's aims.. no?
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #13 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:17pm
 
Quote:
Anyone who supports the existence of the Zionist entity, would be a supporter of Zionism... Are you having trouble grasping the difference between a Zionist and a supporter of Zionism
?

No, I'm trying to figure out whether 'zionist entity' is your way of referring to Israel in a way that makes anyone who supports Israel's right to exist a zionist. That is why I keep asking you whether you think anyone who supports Israel's right to exist a zionist. I'm not sure why you can't just answer the question. Judging by your attempt to tar many members of this forum with that brush it certainly seems that way.

Quote:
Anyway Freediver, care to comment on the original post?


Sure, but I'm still trying to get past the first sentence. Hence the repeated and for some reason unanswered requests for clarification.
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Re: Muslims have a lot to learn from Zionists
Reply #14 - Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:33pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:09pm:
You're entitled to your opinion soren. However please don't falsify my lineage.

Anyway care to comment on the original post? How would you feel about Muslims in the Diaspora emulating the methodologies of Zionism? After all it was quite successful and you seem to support it and think it's a great way to achieve one's aims.. no?



Wherever mohammedans were at home 2000 years ago, I support their rightful return to all such places. Sign me up for moral and material support.




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