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muslim men allowed to rape wives (Read 35335 times)
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #45 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 2:02pm
 

hahahah, so, after the husband has "exhausted ALL other avenues", he can tap her with a toothbrush ?

That'll do what ?

hahahhahahah, would HAVE to be a muslim to do that and expect anything.
i guess, after the toothbrush warning, it is drag her off to be stoned by the mob at the local soccer park ??
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #46 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 2:06pm
 
I wonder if 'all other avenues' includes divorce?
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #47 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:57pm
 
mantra,

Quote:
Not only would it be humiliating, it would make the average western woman very angry - but a Muslim woman has to stand there and accept it.  She can't throw an object back at her husband in retaliation or lodge a complaint with the police.


Actually some Arab women are  known for being quite vicious with their pots and pans. Don't be so sure about the stereotype you seem to have adopted.

There is no doubt that in Islam the husband has control over the family, and therefore he is able to disclipine the wife. I've never come across a Muslim women who's ever  spoken against that idea. However they do oppose domestic violence, as does any normal person with half an iota of decency in them. Domestic violence is a disease which must be stamped out of all societies. But it has nothing to do with giving your wife a 'smack' when she's gotten out of control (if that ever were to happen, I can gladly say it's never been a problem for me). Likewise, I think most people would make a distinction between smacking children with a disclipinary smack, and abusing them... No?

Quote:
I know these laws are usually only strictly adhered to by certain socio economic groups in Muslim countries and it's also obvious that women from other religions are oppressed in many developing countries as well.


I think very few men would ever need to disclipine their wives. So whhat you'd probably be referring to is domestic violence, which is nothing to do  with the disclipine Islam permits. They are two completely seperate phenomena. Domestic violence exists amongst some Muslims, probably no more than in any other society, probably less actually, due  to the absence of alcohol, and all peoples should work to stamp it out from their societies and provide support for women who are escaping it.

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but if they let too much hair escape from their hijab - they have moral male police standing around the streets either giving them warnings or arresting them.


If it was an Islamic ruling, then it wouldn't permit any hair nor makeup, so it sounds a bit strange if you ask me.

Anyway, the situation in Iran is really shrouded in a lot of propaganda at the moment, as the West has been trying to paint it as a nasty 'axis of evil' type of place. Here's a few interesting facts about the roles of women in Iran:

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Iranian women today serve an active role in society. Peace activists such as Shirin Ebadi have pushed for greater rights for women, while many Iranian women exiles have set examples of excellence that have no doubt inspired many Iranian women to strive for change in the conservative society prevalent in today's Iran. Even with the current climate of religious conservativism, Iranian women still tend to take a more active role in social, religious and family affairs than their Arab or Turkish counterparts.[citation needed] Despite the barriers imposed by the Revolution, Iranian women can be seen working in a variety of areas such as politics, law enforcement, transportation industries, etc. Universities still tend to be dominated by women in Iran and one may find a large number of female legislators in the Iranian Majlis (parliament),[citation needed] even by western standards. Former Vice President Masoumeh Ebtekar, noted for her eloquence in dealing with western media, set a new standard for aspiring Iranian female politicians while serving under President Khatami. Outstanding Iranian female academics, such as Laleh Bakhtiar have forever left a mark in the fields they contribute to.

Demographics of Iran

Note: Ebtekar was Vice President of Iran before Australia was graced with the lovely Julia Gilliard.

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We are so lucky to live in a country like Australia where it is not only morally and socially unacceptable, but usually illegal for a male to oppress a female.


I don't know  if things have changed a lot since I grew up, but when I was growing up, I knew of some families plagued by it (all alcohol related) and it was fairly acceptable. Nobody ever said anything about it nor attempted to solve it, or prevent it. It was just "the way it was".

Quote:
Maybe some Muslim women in Islamic countries would feel offended at being pitied, but there are probably just as many who would give anything to live in a Western country where they could have as many rights as their male counterparts.


Most of those wishing to come to the West are males, not females, and they wish to come for the economic situation, that's about it. I've spoke about this with a lot of people in Arab countries, and all of them say the same thing. They'd hate to leave their country, their socciety etc. but they want to go because of the economic and perhaps educational (which is related to the economic future of their children) situation. I've never come across a person in a fairly decent financial situation who wants to leave their country. Even with the bad political situation (which is actually anti-Islamic more than anything), they'd still rather be there than here.
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« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2009 at 5:55am by abu_rashid »  
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #48 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:31am
 
Grendel,

Quote:
Oh dear forgot to highlight tat bit didn't you.


The second part does not detract one iota from the part I highlighted, in fact it just gives the green light for women to rape their husbands as well (don't laugh, this has happened before). It states a man has authority over his wife's body, this means he could have sex with her whenever he pleased, does it not? It means that no consent would be required in order to have sex, as he has authority, not her.

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As for NT...  yes it is...  but it is not a teaching of Christ is it.  Corinthians is a letter to people by a disciple, it responds to a letter


Can you possibly anchor those goal posts down somewhere? Christians believe in the Bible.. but if we mention the OT... no we don't believe in that, if we mention the NT... oh no we don't believe in that part of it... Please, that's just pathetic, which part of the Bible do you actually believe in? If any.

No wonder so many Christians are leaving such an illogical and inconsistent doctrine to embrace Islam in this country.

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Practice that in your relationships and there is no need for rape.


Agreed 100%. It completely dumbfounds me how any man could even consider raping anyone at all, let alone his supposed soulmate, the thought is just bizarre.

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I'm always astonished that all things return to sex with you people.  Wassup?


It does? News to me. If anything, it's your side's 'spin' on what Muslims  supposedly believe which is full of all the sexual innuendo.

Quote:
As for your map you are kidding right...  you saying the US and Canada do not recognise spousal rape?   ROTFLMAO.


Read it again, a little more slowly this time. It might get through the second time.. we hope.

I'll give you a little hint... "map of which countries
have
laws regarding  'spousal rape'" ...the word in red is key to the sentence.

But also if you read on, you'll see that the US didn't make it a crime in all states until 1993. Not that long ago you know.

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« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:45am by abu_rashid »  
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #49 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:57am
 
freediver,

Quote:
Abu, instead of trying to explain Biblical law to Christians, perhaps this would be a good time to explain what the status of a Muslim wife is in the Koran. Is she allowed to deny her husband sex?


Let's just say it's the same as the NT.

Quote:
So you're changing the definition of domestic violence so that Islam appears to fit in with western values?


Nope just telling you how it is, something you seem to dislike, especially when it doesn't conform to your preconceived notions. Just put it down to Taqiyyah if you like... that's what you'd most like do anyway.

Quote:
They make it pretty clear that "It was just a smack and she deserved it anyway, and I tried to reason with her first" simply does not cut it.


Well then I guess our definitions of smack are very different. As I said, I liken it to the smack of disclipine a child receives when they need to be brought into line. Do you also consider that abuse?

Either way, Muhammad (pbuh) never hit his wives, nor his children, even softly, and he's the best example for ALL of humankind. Let's leave it at that, it suffices for me.
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #50 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 7:36am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:57am:
freediver,

Either way, Muhammad (pbuh) never hit his wives, nor his children, even softly, and he's the best example for ALL of humankind. Let's leave it at that, it suffices for me.


Habibi, habibi, Al Taqiyya, or surely you remember the story of Aisha following Mohammed to the graveyard without his permission? They teach it to the little kiddies about how to be obedient etc....

From Sahih Muslim, Book 4

Quote:
Book 004, Number 2127:
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.


http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith...
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #51 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 8:38am
 
Quote:
The second part does not detract one iota from the part I highlighted,


No but it does balance it up doesn't it...  oh dishonest one.

Quote:
in fact it just gives the green light for women to rape their husbands as well (don't laugh, this has happened before).


Well know it doesn't.  Doesn't mention rape anywhere nor does it specify sex, but that seems to be a Muslim obsession.

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It states a man has authority over his wife's body, this means he could have sex with her whenever he pleased, does it not?


See above.

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It means that no consent would be required in order to have sex, as he has authority, not her.


See above.  BTW would you force your wife to have sex if she didn't want to/  If she wasn't in the mood?  Is that love? Is that respectful?
Quote:
Can you possibly anchor those goal posts down somewhere?


Never moved them.  Your problem is your utter ignorance of the religion.  One you ran away from because of your ignorance.

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Christians believe in the Bible.. but if we mention the OT... no we don't believe in that, if we mention the NT... oh no we don't believe in that part of it... Please, that's just pathetic, which part of the Bible do you actually believe in? If any.


I've already explained this to you.  Get an adult to explain it to you.  Not a Muslim...  they are clueless.

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No wonder so many Christians are leaving such an illogical and inconsistent doctrine to embrace Islam in this country.


Well its still the biggest Religion in the Western world.  Not that that matters.  It isn't in a competition with islam.  I don't think Islam will ever become a major religion in this country short of importing or breeding more Muslims.

Quote:
Agreed 100%. It completely dumbfounds me how any man could even consider raping anyone at all, let alone his supposed soulmate, the thought is just bizarre.


So why have you just supported such a proposition.  Oh because a Muslim said it.  That's the problem with you people.  that's why the world has a problem with Muslims.

I'm always astonished that all things return to sex with you people.  Wassup?

Quote:
It does? News to me. If anything, it's your side's 'spin' on what Muslims  supposedly believe which is full of all the sexual innuendo.


You just made statements supporting that proposition.  You need to take a good look at yourself. 

As for your map you are kidding right...  you saying the US and Canada do not recognise spousal rape?   ROTFLMAO.

Quote:
Read it again, a little more slowly this time. It might get through the second time.. we hope.


once was enough.

Quote:
I'll give you a little hint... "map of which countries have laws regarding  'spousal rape'" ...the word in red is key to the sentence.


yep got that...  made no difference.

Rape is rape spousal or NOT.  if you have laws against RAPE it don't matter who does it.

Quote:
But also if you read on, you'll see that the US didn't make it a crime in all states until 1993. Not that long ago you know.


Yet they did have rapes laws...  see above,

Not winning are you... oh deluded one.

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #52 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 10:01am
 
rape is rape....

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #53 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 10:31am
 
Quote:
No but it does balance it up doesn't it...  oh dishonest one.


Balance is irrelevant, it still quite clearly states that the husband has authority over the body of his wife. This quite clearly means he is free to have sex with her whenever he pleases, as he's in the position of authority to do so.

Unless of course you have a new definition for authority?

Quote:
Well know it doesn't.  Doesn't mention rape anywher..


Thank you, and neither do the Islamic texts. Doesn't stop you from making wild accusations though.

Quote:
BTW would you force your wife to have sex if she didn't want to/  If she wasn't in the mood?  Is that love? Is that respectful?


Of course I would not, I find the idea repulsive, as I'm sure so would Abu Hamza, that doesn't appear to have been the intent of his speech, anymore than it was the intent of Paul in the Letter to the Corinthians.

Quote:
One you ran away from because of your ignorance.


I never ran away from it, because I never even practised it. Like most Australians I couldn't have cared less about religion in my youth, I just thought it was a waste of time and load of fairytales from ancient times.

Quote:
Well its still the biggest Religion in the Western world.


Maybe by official statistics, but as far as actual practise goes, I'd dispute that. And that's why Christians in the West are worried. When churches start getting sold to Muslims to turn into Mosques, they get all up in arms... well nobody attends church, that's why they end up selling them! Whilst Muslims are attending mosques at ever increasing rates.

I don't blame you for being jealous of Islam, after all, it's actually in such a period of growth and revival, whilst Christianity is nothing but a fading memory for most, a reminder of a long gone past.

Quote:
I don't think Islam will ever become a major religion in this country short of importing or breeding more Muslims.


If Muslims keeping coming and breeding at their current rates, we wouldn't become a majority for about another 1000 years, so I wouldn't worry too much about that... oops, hate to spoil your delusions of being ;swamped' and 'outbred'.

The fact is a lot of Aussies are embracing Islam, and you know this is what concerns you about Islam... believe me, don't waste your time being concerned, find out why.

Quote:
So why have you just supported such a proposition


Care to show where I did that?

Quote:
That's the problem with you people.  that's why the world has a problem with Muslims.


You're such a bigot Grendel. You just made this statement based on the false premise I'm supposed to have supported spousal rape, which I most certainly DID NOT. this is a clear indication that your bigotry is based on nothing but irrational fears and falsehoods.

Quote:
once was enough.


Obviously it wasn't. You didn't seem to have grasped the concept that "have" means the countries marked in red HAVE spousal rape laws. Don't you feel ashamed, not for the fact of the original oversight, but for not having the basic decency to admit your oversight? Instead continuing on in your ignorance, as if nothing happened? Something you seem to do a lot, like the kid who wouldn't "go out" when playing cricket in the backyard.

Quote:
Rape is rape spousal or NOT.  if you have laws against RAPE it don't matter who does it


What it means is that in those countries (not marked red, just so you're clear on what the map means), marriage is considered consent, and a husband cannot be charged with rape.

Quote:
Yet they did have rapes laws...  see above,


Yes but standard rape laws excluded sex inside marriage, as marriage was considered consent for sex. That's why they introduced new legislation, to address this issue. They wouldn't have introduced new legislation, if the existing legislation covered it, as you appear to be claiming.

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #54 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 11:38am
 
Quote:
Balance is irrelevant


WELL THAT SAYS IT ALL DOESN'T IT.

SEEMS TO BE THE ISLAMIC WAY TO ME.
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #55 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 11:44am
 
Quote:
Balance is irrelevant, it still quite clearly states that the husband has authority over the body of his wife. This quite clearly means he is free to have sex with her whenever he pleases, as he's in the position of authority to do so.

Unless of course you have a new definition for authority?


Sex...?  It says sex where?
Could mean over what she wears?
Whether or not she gets a tattoo?
Ears pierced?
Other piercings?
Breast enlargement?
Abortion?
Medical attention?
Make-up?
Plastic surgery?

The list is endless.  However in Western society women are not chattels.
Marriage today is seen as a partnership, not ownership.

When will the Muslims enter the 20th century.


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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #56 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 11:49am
 
ah ha...  finally youre getting around to answering a question many of us asked you months ago...

Took a bit of goading to finally get it out of you..
Quote:
I never ran away from it, because I never even practised it. Like most Australians I couldn't have cared less about religion in my youth, I just thought it was a waste of time and load of fairytales from ancient times.


So you were never really a Christian and you had if anything just a rudimentary understanding of it.  Yet you condemn it.  ROTFLMAO.

made up lies (How NOT unusual) and converted to Islam...  why?

well we don't know because apparently you don't know.
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #57 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 11:55am
 
Quote:
Maybe by official statistics, but as far as actual practise goes, I'd dispute that. And that's why Christians in the West are worried. When churches start getting sold to Muslims to turn into Mosques, they get all up in arms... well nobody attends church, that's why they end up selling them! Whilst Muslims are attending mosques at ever increasing rates.


So you refute official statistics...  because it doesn't suit your belief.  that's called living in denial.

Christians, athiests and others...  see we don't just think in terms of what religion you belong to in the WEST...  are worried because our governments are importing you imbiciles into our countries, without a thought to the social consequences.

We don't care if Moslems go to mosques.  The thought never crosses my mind. 

Quote:
I don't blame you for being jealous of Islam, after all, it's actually in such a period of growth and revival, whilst Christianity is nothing but a fading memory for most, a reminder of a long gone past.


Not jealous at all.  I like being a free-thinking individual.
As for your thoughts on Christianity...  you are deluding yourselves.  Even athiests would rather live in a Christian society than an islamic one.
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #58 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 11:59am
 
As for the rest of your tripe...  you wouldn't know what you support, your arguments are so contradictory.

Your attempts to squirm and wriggle out of things so convoluted you lose track of what you said.  Your bigotry (not mine) so entrenched you fail to see the errors in your arguments.

Not to mention the lies misquotes and strawmen you are so fond of creating.
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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #59 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 8:10pm
 
Quote:
He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it.


He missed that bit too. He needs to work on his hadith.

Zing!
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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