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Taking Jews and Christians as friends (Read 20134 times)
Yadda
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #30 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 9:32am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:58am:
Yadda,

Quote:
because of Christian religious doctrine of active pacifism [i.e. love your enemies]


Aren't you a Christian Yadda? You don't seem to love your enemies. In fact you speak quite harshly about and act  quite hostile towards your enemies. I can't see you handing me your cloak nor giving me your other cheek....

Perhaps you need to go back and read more of your Bible, instead of wasting all your time on dhimmiwatch?






abu,

I wish the best outcome for my 'enemies'.

But that in no way, means that i endorse the wickedness of ISLAM.

I do not endorse the lies, deceit, the violence, of ISLAM.

I sincerely wish all men will seek the TRUTH, and find peace.

It is not my Christian duty to be silent in the face of evil.




And i know that i will answer to God for all of my words, my actions, and, for what is in my heart.





++++++++++++



Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



Proverbs 8:13
The *fear of the LORD is to hate evil*: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. *Abhor that which is evil*; cleave to that which is good.


Amos 5:10
They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly.


Psalms 36:1
<<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD.>> The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.
2  For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.
3  The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
4  He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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freediver
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #31 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:09am
 
Gaybriel wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:59pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:57pm:
Quote:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?


To have sex with them. Only the men are allowed to marry them. It would be a lot harder to motivate sex deprived Muslim men to wage war if they weren't allowed to have sex with the captured slaves.


we're not talking about slaves. we're talking about wives. jewish and christian women who marry muslim men now are not slaves

and the question stands. if you marry someone obviously you take them as a friend- even more than that. so how does this sit with calanen's POV?

if it were just about sex then it would have been said 'thou shalt lie with them but not take them as your wives'- or something to that effect. but that was not said.

jewish and christian wives are also given the same rights in marriage as muslim women as far as I remember.


Gaybriel the Islamic approach to love and amrriage is completely different to how we understand it, so I don't think you can argue that allowing Muslims (only men) to marry non-Muslim women means they can also be friends with non-Muslims. Islam permits the marriage of an old man to a young bride who does not love him. Marriage is not about falling in love. The bride is supposed to 'grow to love' the husband as a result of being married. And if she strays she gets stoned to death. Also, the bride is expected to be very subservient to the husband. I don't see how the treatment would be that different from a sex slave.

Quote:
You really do yourself a disservice everytime you touch that keyboard of yours fd. She clearly stated marriage, yet you jump to slaves.


They can have sex with their wives as well. It's just that the motivation is far more clear with the sex slave issue. But it's the same principle. The marriage rights are not necessarily reflective of friendship.
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Gaybriel
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #32 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:13am
 
I think your understanding of marriage in Islam is less than perfect.

You've taken abu's comments to be literal and all encompassing. I don't think I can help you understand and I have a headache so I'm just going to leave it alone
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #33 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:19am
 
Abu grew up in Australia. It's not like it's some cultural thing he picked up in the middle east and falsely ascribed to Islam.
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Gaybriel
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #34 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:50am
 
I didn't say that was the case
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abu_rashid
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #35 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 7:20pm
 
Gaybriel,

He's merely picked out pieces of my statements, then reassembled them together to find what he wants to find. Nowhere did I promote anything like the concept he's claimed marriage in Islam is like. As I'm sure you're aware, Islam places great value on the relationship between a husband and wife being a strong, loving connection between two souls. Freediver likes to insinuate and look for negatives where there are none, always casting everything in a negative, even if it means stretching the truth a little.

And when you tell him something which contradicts his distorted vision of Islam, he just claims it's lies anyway, and  then assumes what he wanted to believe, based on tacking a few disjointed statements together. Arguing with such a viewpoint is futile, save yourself from the headache.
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Yadda
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #36 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 8:36am
 
Gaybriel wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:49pm:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?




Gaybriel,

Devout muslims are expressly forbidden to marry unbelievers.

This is from the Koran.


If i post this information on the ISLAM board, abu will likely remove it [as being disrespectful to ISLAM].

If i post it [in a new thread] on the Extremism Exposed board, Gaybriel will likely remove it claiming another thread covering this issue/topic already exists.



abu,

Instead of simply deleting this post, why don't you address the issues i have raised here???

i.e. Particularly the issue of ISLAM's disrespect for women, relegating them to chattel, and sex objects.




ISLAM's highest authority, Allah, in the Koran, instructs muslims NOT to marry unbelieving women....

"Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.221

N.B. A Christian woman *is* an unbelieving women.
An ex-Christian woman who is a muslim [covert], *is* a believing women.
i.e. a muslim man is therefore permitted to marry a *muslim* woman, and would not be marrying 'Christian' woman per se.




The Koran also states that the woman, the wife, has the status of a field [of earth, 'tilth'].

And her husband is to use her [plough her] as he wishes ['how ye will'].
i.e. sex on demand, is sanctified in the Koran, and this sanctity comes from Allah himself.

"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.223



The Koran [Allah] instructs muslims beat disobedient wives, ever so lightly....

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.034




PLOUGHING YOUR FIELD, in a Sharia jurisdiction.....

April 11, 2008
8-year-old girl seeks divorce in Yemen
.....SANA’A, April 9 - An eight-year-old girl decided last week to go the Sana’a West Court to prosecute her father, who forced her to marry a 30-year-old man......
.......Whenever I wanted to play in the yard he beat me and asked me to go to the bedroom with him. This lasted for two months," added Nasser. "He was too tough with me, and whenever I asked him for mercy, he beat me and slapped me and then used me.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020644.php

Used her?

In what way?

As a tilth?

That is permitted, by ISLAM, and Allah.


N.B. The
Yemen Times
source for this story [the original source] has been removed.
http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2

But there are still many other redoubtable sources for this story.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Calanen
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #37 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 10:56am
 
Gaybriel wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:13am:
I think your understanding of marriage in Islam is less than perfect.

You've taken abu's comments to be literal and all encompassing. I don't think I can help you understand and I have a headache so I'm just going to leave it alone


Let's see what an expert has to say about a wife and a husband in Islam then:



Wife beating:





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Quote:
ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #38 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:19am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 7:20pm:
Gaybriel,

He's merely picked out pieces of my statements, then reassembled them together to find what he wants to find. Nowhere did I promote anything like the concept he's claimed marriage in Islam is like. As I'm sure you're aware, Islam places great value on the relationship between a husband and wife being a strong, loving connection between two souls. Freediver likes to insinuate and look for negatives where there are none, always casting everything in a negative, even if it means stretching the truth a little.

And when you tell him something which contradicts his distorted vision of Islam, he just claims it's lies anyway, and  then assumes what he wanted to believe, based on tacking a few disjointed statements together. Arguing with such a viewpoint is futile, save yourself from the headache.


So was I wrong Abu? Why not just point out where I was wrong? Just because you believe it is the word of God and therefor cannot be viewed in a negative light does not mean other people will not see it as negative.

Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?
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Gaybriel
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #39 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:58am
 
Yadda- jews and christians are considered to be believers
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abu_rashid
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #40 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:06pm
 
Quote:
Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?


Can you quote me saying it?

I never said Islam rejects such a concept.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #41 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:17pm
 
Yadda,

Quote:
i.e. Particularly the issue of ISLAM's disrespect for women, relegating them to chattel, and sex objects.


Grin Grin Grin
This is quite rich coming from a proponent of the civilisation that has built itself purely upon the sexual objectification of women. A society where anything from soft drinks to wallpaper involve women getting most of their gear off and slivering all over the product or sliding it all over their bodies.


Quote:
N.B. A Christian woman *is* an unbelieving women.
An ex-Christian woman who is a muslim [covert], *is* a believing women.
i.e. a muslim man is therefore permitted to marry a *muslim* woman, and would not be marrying 'Christian' woman per se.


I think the verse about this is quite clear:

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). "

As usual your ignorance is shining through.
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Yadda
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #42 - Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:00am
 
Gaybriel wrote on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:58am:
Yadda- jews and christians are considered to be believers



Gaybriel,

Who say's so????

Can you give me a quote from the Koran, to back up such an assertion????





Gaybriel,

I suspect that you believe that [lie], because [for some reason] it pleases you to believe that [lie].

What i would like to know is WHY it pleases you to believe that [lie]?


#1

In the Koran Allah states that [devout] Christians are cursed - by him.

".....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030

The Hadith...

"On his death-bed Allah's Apostle....said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians....."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html#004.0...



#2

Q.
If as you assert, Jews and Christians are considered to be 'believers', then why are Jews and Christians continually persecuted and murdered by muslims, especially within Sharia jurisdictions?

i.e. Why do Jews and Christians so often find themselves to be unprotected people within Sharia jurisdictions?

Could it be that this Koran verse gives a clue?,

"....those who reject (Allah),- for them is destruction, and (Allah) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).
....those who reject Allah have no protector."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.008
v. 8-11

Google,
muslims persecuted christians
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=mu...


N.B. ISLAM's highest authority, Allah, in the Koran, expressly forbids muslims to kill other, ....believers.

"Never should a believer kill a believer;.......If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.092
v. 92 & 93





#3

Gaybriel,

Q.
If Christians are considered to be 'believers', then why did this Sharia court grant custody of these young Christian girls to their muslim kidnappers?

Why didn't this court recognise the criminal act, perpetrated against these Christian girls, and their family?


Q.
Are these kidnappers, merely muslim impersonators???

If so, then why didn't the Sharia court, apprehend these kidnappers?




The actions of not real muslims???.....

CHRISTIAN GIRLS, 13- AND 10-YEAR-OLD GIRLS ABDUCTED, RAPED, AND FORCED INTO THE FOLD OF ISLAM


July 12, 2008
Pakistan: Christian girls kidnapped; captors file for custody, claiming girls converted to Islam
And the police weren't about to be of any help without outside pressure: The girls' father "was told to 'remain silent,' as the officers said the girls had embraced Islam in a written statement."
"Pakistan: Girls kidnapped, allegedly forced to convert,"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021731.php



July 14, 2008
Pakistan: 13- and 10-year-old girls abducted, raped, and forced into the fold of Islam
More Christian girls being forced to convert to the religion of peace. As this report notes, the Muslim majority, including the police, are either actively or passively aiding the abductors, a common phenomenon in Muslim majority countries, such as Egypt, where Coptic girls are regularly abducted.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021760.php



update....

July 20, 2008
Pakistan: Court grants custody of Christian girls to Muslim kidnappers
Because they converted to Islam, you see. More on this story. "Pakistan: Court Grants Custody of Girls to Kidnappers," from Compass Direct News, July 18:
    ISTANBUL, July 18 (Compass Direct News) A Pakistani couple has appealed a court decision to award custody of their two daughters, 10 and 13, to the children’s alleged kidnappers. The court based its custody decision on the girls’ conversion to Islam.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021866.php



January 14, 2009
Pakistan: Christian girls drugged, coverted to Islam,
sold as sex slaves

Muslim men are permitted to have sex with the "captives their right hands possess" (Qur'an 4:24). "Christian Girls Drugged and Sold As Sex Slaves in Pakistan," from AINA, January 13:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/024393.php


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #43 - Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:38am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:17pm:
Yadda,

I think the verse about this is quite clear:

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you......."






abu,

As i have stated previously, i understand all too well that within ISLAM, for a devout muslim,
.....all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia [permitted by Allah's law].



Have sex with a 9-year-old girl,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith...


Keep women as sex slaves,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/...


Capture a woman and rape her,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith...


Beat children who don't pray,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/002.sat.html#002....







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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #44 - Jan 26th, 2009 at 12:28pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:06pm:
Quote:
Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?


Can you quote me saying it?

I never said Islam rejects such a concept.


Here you go Abu:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225592196

Yadda wrote on Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:38am:


What's your take on this point Abu?
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