Australian Politics Forum - the 'peaceful' empire fairytale

pope urban 2 Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 271 melbourne Gender:	Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale Reply #45 - Jan 25^th, 2009 at 10:41pm Living in the past seems to be what Islam does best, might be time to look to the future, while they still have one.
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abu_rashid

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #46 - Jan 25^th, 2009 at 11:30pm

Hence my admission:

Quote:

This is all history, and does nobody any good today, I agree, Muslims cannot live off the past. But you must also recognise that these circumstances fluctuate

You are the one who made the false assertion that the economic/military stature of a civilisation at any given time determines whether the entire civilisation/ideology is 'favoured by God'.

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mozzaok

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #47 - Jan 26^th, 2009 at 4:11am

The point you seem content to ignore Abu, is that Islam, and "REALITY", have barely a nodding acquaintance with each other.

We see muslims fabricating there own version of what happened last week(Hamas' great victory?), yet you will only accept what Islamic sources sanction, about what happened hundreds of years ago, and that is plain ignorant.
To dismiss all scholarship, unless it passes the Islamic censors, is blind, stupid, prejudice.

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abu_rashid

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #48 - Jan 26^th, 2009 at 5:11am

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We see muslims fabricating there own version of what happened last week(Hamas' great victory?)

Who's fabricated anything? There are indeed some discrepancies in the number of killed, obviously the Zionists have the monopoly on the true figures though, right?

Apart from that, all I've seen is some fruitless argument about whether Israel achieved her aims which were clearly stated at the beginning of the incursion to destroy Hamas' ability to launch rockets. That they clearly did not do, as Hamas still fired rockets even after Israel had ceased her operation. Indicating that the operation did not destroy Hamas' ability to launch rockets. Another stated aim was to weaken Hamas politically, which the complete reverse occured. If you want to insist Israel achieved her aims, so be it, but it's your deluded view which would have barely a nodding acquaintance with reality.

Unless of course you think Israel's aim was merely to cause more civilian casualties, in which case yes she certainly did achieve them.

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Yadda

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #49 - Jan 26^th, 2009 at 11:32am

mozzaok wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 4:11am:

The point you seem content to ignore Abu, is that Islam, and "REALITY", have barely a nodding acquaintance with each other.

We see muslims fabricating there own version of what happened last week(Hamas' great victory?), yet you will only accept what Islamic sources sanction, about what happened hundreds of years ago, and that is plain ignorant.
To dismiss all scholarship, unless it passes the Islamic censors, is blind, stupid, prejudice.

moz,

Exactly correct.

See my post here, about the imaginary 'Jewish temple' in Jerusalem.

"Exploring ISLAMIC 'mindsnap'"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227051349/0#0

You know moz, Jews don't really exist.

They are just a figment of abu's imagination.

Grin

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #50 - Jan 26^th, 2009 at 12:19pm

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Johann Hari, a British journalist, argues that "There are intellectuals on the British right who are propagating a conspiracy theory about Muslims that teeters very close to being a 21st century Protocols of the Elders of Mecca" and that Bat Ye'or is a "scholar" who argues that Europe is on the brink of being transformed into a conquered continent called "Eurabia"

Quote:

No doubt all "mindless dhimmis" who don't know any better, like anyone else who doesn't swallow your conspiracy theory of secret Islamic plans to take over the Western world, via the 'Protocols of the Elders of Mecca'.

Except that the Koran is real and calls on Muslims to use violence to dominate the world. Furthermore, history clearly shows that they have attempted this in the past, gone a long way, and caused great suffering. The elders of Zion on the other hand was a fabrication.

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What a joke, Islamic scholar? Just because his name is foreign sounding, you thought you could pass him off as an Islamic scholar? His name is definitely Semitic, but not Arabic, it's Hebrew. He is a professor at the Hebrew university in Jerusalem, not an Islamic scholar.

You are confusing Islamic with Muslim, as if only Muslims are qualified to study Islam. This is a bit rich from someone who continually claims to understand the 'real Christianity' better than Christians.

Quote:

Who's fabricated anything? There are indeed some discrepancies in the number of killed, obviously the Zionists have the monopoly on the true figures though, right?

Apart from that, all I've seen is some fruitless argument about whether Israel achieved her aims

So all you saw were a few discrepancies in the number killed, and a fruitless debate lead by Lestat about who acvhieved what aims? Did you miss the bit about Hamas claiming a great victory?

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Yadda

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #51 - Jan 27^th, 2009 at 11:33am

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 12:19pm:

Quote:

[quote]What a joke, Islamic scholar? Just because his name is foreign sounding, you thought you could pass him off as an Islamic scholar? His name is definitely Semitic, but not Arabic, it's Hebrew. He is a professor at the Hebrew university in Jerusalem, not an Islamic scholar.

You are confusing Islamic with Muslim, as if only Muslims are qualified to study Islam. This is a bit rich from someone who continually claims to understand the 'real Christianity' better than Christians.

Any critical perceptions about ISLAM coming from non-muslims are supposedly invalid.

FD,

This is just another case of,

ISLAM is good.
Everyone else is bad [ignorant].

And of course, there is the point that abu, and muslims claim that Jesus is a muslim.

This is an astounding claim, in that abu, and muslims, reject the veracity all [pre Koranic] historic accounts of the theology of Judaism, and Jesus, upon which the existence and historic accounts of Judaism, and Jesus is based.

It is an amazing fact, that the whole of ISLAM
is based, is built upon, the the words which passed through the lips of one man.

But muslims accept [without question] the Koran, alone, as the true 'revelation of knowledge' about itself, and about the true historic account of both Judaism and Christianity.

While the Jewish & Christian Bibles consists of 66 books, by multiple 'authors', transcribed over millennia.

Yet a clear underlying theme [the redemption of mankind] in its pages is a [persistent and] consistent 'message'.

And there is also a substantial amount of archaeology which backs up at least some of the 'facts', and accounts, which are claimed in these combined pages [of the Jewish and Christian Bibles].

Yet muslims would rather believe the words which came out of the lips of one man.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #52 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 4:44pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

freediver,

Quote:

I think Spain has. I thought it was odd that he included Spain in the list, as it was saved from the long downward spiral. Spain even had it's own empire, of sorts.

Spain had a brutal colonialist venture into the new world. Which resulted purely in the destruction of civilisations, not in the advancement of civilisation. The eradication of several different civilisations (who were much further behind anyone from Eurasia), and the shipping of all their riches back to Spain, can hardly even begin to compare to the civilisation that existed in Andalus. Unless of course that's your standard for what civilisation is? which wouldn't surprise me.. since it was generally the European modus operandi.

It's odd that you use such different language there. Do you see the Islamic invasion of Spain as brutal? Do you see it as colonialist?

Quote:

We just dispute the claims that Islam spread violently and in an aggressive imperialistic way, like for instance the way the Spanish or English empires spread (and Christianity with them). Just consider the difference in the way Islam dealt with new 'citizens'. They became full citizens

Abu didn't you concede elsewhere that only the Muslim ones became full citizens? Also, in practice, weren't even the Muslim converts considered inferior and treated as inferior?

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abu_rashid

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #53 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 10:31pm

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Do you see the Islamic invasion of Spain as brutal? Do you see it as colonialist?

No I don't. It was just the normal mode of operation of ALL states/empires in that time. That's the way empires were, they all had liquid borders, that would contract and expand at various times. Islam was born into that environment, and it held it's own in that environment. It was neither overly brutal about it, nor was it colonialist in the sense the British and Spanish were. A land became an Islamic land, it didn't become a mere possession of the Caliph, and it's people slaves. That's what Britain and Spain did. They wiped out any less advanced peoples than themselves and looted all of the wealth of the countries in question to be sent back to the homeland. There was no concept of "homeland" in the Islamic empire, the entire empire was one homogenous state.

Do you see it as the same as what the Spanish did in the New World?

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Abu didn't you concede elsewhere that only the Muslim ones became full citizens?

More of your fantasies of winning debates?

Quote:

Also, in practice, weren't even the Muslim converts considered inferior and treated as inferior?

No. This wouldn't even make sense logically anyway, EVERYONE was a convert to Islam. It began with 0 adherents, did it not? In fact, if anything, there was special priviledge for converts, they were given special allowances at some times, to help them out financially, perhaps because their family might disown them, especially in the very early days, and plunder their belongings (a regular occurence).

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #54 - Feb 16^th, 2009 at 10:49pm

I was listening to a discussion on New Zealand's Treaty of Waitangi on the radio the other day. Apparently the idea of signing a treaty with the Maori people was a direct result of the consternation and outrage in Britain regarding the treatment of Australian Aborigines. The British people became concerned that the Crown's intention to claim New Zealand would result in the same brutality towards local natives that had occurred to Aborigines in the colony of New South Wales. The Treaty was an attempt to gain possession of New Zealand by consent.

Also apparently many native Maoris had worked on whaling ships that docked in Sydney and had seen first hand the plight of the local Aboriginal people so they would have been under no illusions as to the nature of methods that would be used to take New Zealand by force.

The Treaty, while hardly a legal document of any note, has become a moral covenant that the Maori people have used to great effect to reclaim land confiscated by the Crown in contravention of the articles of the Treaty.

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Re: the 'peaceful' empire fairytale
Reply #55 - Feb 17^th, 2009 at 3:05pm

Abu, you refused to respond to this, on the grounds that we 'didn't want to hear the answer'. It hardly makes the Islamic empire seem homogenous.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224850702/2#2

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The concept of toleration is linked to a number of discriminatory obligations in the economic, religious and social fields, imposed by the shari'a on the dhimmis. The transgression by the dhimmis of some of these obligations, abolished their protection, and threaten them with death or slavery. Dhimmis suffered many legal disabilities intended to reduce them to a condition of humiliation, segregation and discrimination. These rules, established from the eight to nine centuries by the founders of the four schools of Islamic law, set the pattern of the Muslim's community's social behavior toward dhimmis.

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