It's the situation, not the end, that justifies the means.

I read Mandela's autobiography a while back and he made the claim that it was the oppressors, or the more more powerful side, who set the bar in any conflict. There were plenty of his comrades who thought all out war was the only way to go, but he held them back. However they did engage in some acts that would pass for terrorism. Yet he was in the end very successful at preventing a volatile situation turning to mass slaughter.

He compared himself with Ghandi, and pointed out the ghandi was not an ideological pacifist, but a situational pacifist. This was down to the British, who by that stage had learned that there is more gold in peaceful trade than in rape and pillage. They did not want another war. They held up the independence movement for as long as possible, but there was a limit to how low they would stoop in achieving that goal. They would not slaughter peaceful protestors, which meant that Ghandi was able to achieve independence relatively peacefully.

In both of these arguments you could have made a reasonable argument that the end justified any means. They were fighting for independence, and at some point people must be willing to sacrifice the lives of others, or even their own, for the right to self determination. But the situation did not justify the slauighter of innocent people.

Bringing it back to modern times, you can apply this to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Afghanistan was a genuine threat and the Taliban had repeatedly demonstrated an unwillingness to deal with the terrorists. More attacks were inevitable if the US did not destroy the threat. Iraq on the other hand did not present the same level of threat. Economic sanctions were effective, if not in toppling Saddam, but preventing him from 'projecting power'. As far as the end goes, Iraq would seem to have had more of a justification for the means, as Saddam was an evil dictator. He had started more wars and killed more of his own people in a civilian context than the Taliban. But the situtation did not justify it.

I believe means justify the ends.

It sounds the same but I intend it to mean differently. Ends in and of themselves don't impress me. But the means do. And no, I don't mean "good" measures like peaceful protesting or "working within the system". But violent ourbusts and pipebombs.

If a person is really intending to stir the pot, and focus on change. Then he needs to be willing to do anything. He eeds to prioritize how important this is to him. If he's disgusted with the people and the system. What does it matter if they think him good or evil?

Do it for the sake of doing it. Nothing turns me off more then cowardice.

Everybody dies in the end no matter what means they use.

Jim Profit wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 9:17am:

Killer nerd?

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Ofcourse I am. Infact I'd go as far as to say people trust me with their lives.

I'm an officer. lol! I've said it before but I don't mind repeating it as it's one of my greatest accomplishments. Something I'm very proud of.

Ofcourse I'm only a security officer. But then I don't really like the police, as I don't want to be heald responsible for minimizing riots or something when infact I might agree with what they're doing. As a security officer, my main job is to protect the property in which I'm assigned too. Ofcourse because of the fear of terror attacks and sometimes high crime rates in certain areas, I have to be trained anyway to handle those types of situations.

I don't really consider myself a dictator, I don't like telling people what to do. It's not in my nature. Being incharge requires alot of hardwork, discipline, and responsibility. I just want to walk around in steel toed boots, have a gun holstered to my side, and a nice shiny badge so people know to keep their distance.

And I don't consider myself a fascist either as I'm not really into racial or religious based organization. If anything, I'm more of a revolutionary thinker like Che Guevera in how I act and carry myself, and in my politics a constitutionalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The only ones I'd repeal are the 21st ammendment (state rights) and 18th ammendment (prohibition). Cause I think brewing alchahol in the tub is just fine, and we didn't win the civil war so state's could declare whatever laws they wanted outside the federal government's jurisdiction..


I wish my officer outfit looked like that.. lol!

Jim Profit wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 9:17am:


I will agree with you that war is very much a part of our nature, that we as a species and particularly males enjoy it. This is part of the human-animal, the next real step in our evolutionary progress is not physical but mental/spiritual. That is to recognise the human-animal as a valuable AND negative part of our current dominating position on this planet. It is time to start becoming human-beings, to better ourselves and lay the ground work for future generations. Reduce world populations and return vast tracks of the globe to wilderness. There will be plenty of challanges and adventure for the restless.

I aslo agree with you that if you go to war you go with total committment. Like the saying says "Go hard or go home!" That goes for the nation as well. It should be geared to win. But it is better not to go to war. You've read Sun Tzu and enjoyed it. Good, because that is one of his key points and in fact his ultimate goal. Victory without war is the most preferable,

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Liking violence is a strange admission? But not unique and maybe not even interesting. As for us growing stonger, I think the human races constant position of war with each other, ourselves, and nature is actually making us weaker and ultimately extinct. "Technological giants but moral infants." Spoken by one of the so-called conquered. In fact our continued war with nature seems particularly infantile and vengeful for the hard time nature gave us in the last 3 million years.

Personally, I prefer killing things that don't fight back - much. While a war would be a rush when the action is on, I don't think I would particularly enjoy it, either the long periods of complete boredom or the short periods of complete and utter terror.