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Did this child deserve to die? (Read 28823 times)
Amadd
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Mo

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #45 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 1:42pm
 
I don't think that anybody is suggesting that they should've called in Chuck Norris (he's a bit old now anyway), but like Mantra said, they had ample time to devise a better strategy. The dog squad being just one option that I could think of as a layman.
Net guns, although poo pooed heavily, would've worked as well, but dogs probably would've been the logical option.

The eyewitness said that the police surrounded him and hunted him down. This is more believable to me than the average rosy perception of the average police force member. Especially the Victorian police.

If I deal with the police in any way shape or form, in or out of unifrom, then I expect to be controlled. They are not my friends.i
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freediver
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #46 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 1:47pm
 
As far as I know the dogs in the dog squad are trained as sniffers, not as ball tearers. In any case they would not have been available. Do you think the knife wielding maniac (and to suggest he was anything less is naive) would have agreed not to stab anyone for half an hour while they bring in a dog to drag him down? Do you think the police planned for this lunatic to turn on them after pepper spray had failed? Can you imagine the cries of anguish if the police started setting dogs on people?

The net gun idea belongs in comic books, not in the real world.
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easel
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #47 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 1:53pm
 
Lots of good ideas in the real world have been adapted from science fiction.

Police have dogs for different things, general dogs can track and restrain/attack, things like that. They can even teach dogs to climb ladders.

They're not supposed to put a dog in a life threatening situation if they can help it though I do recall a situation where a guy armed with a knife was set upon by a police dog which he stabbed and killed.
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #48 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 1:57pm
 
Perhaps they should train the dogs in kung-fu, the use of net guns and negotiation strategy. Like Rex. He can knock people down just by jumping over them and brushing them with his paws. And he doesn't get distracted by naked women either, unless they're eating a ham roll. That's why they call him a good friend.
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Amadd
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #49 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 2:35pm
 
Quote:
I am an expert. But I dont work for free.


If you aren't willing to share your knowledge for free, then why bring it up? You just profess to be the expert and everybody is supposed to bow to your superior knowledge.

Quote:
You went and watched court one day in the public gallery? You got called as a witness in a traffic accident.  What training or abilities do you have to say that this was the correct or preferable option? None.


Do you always answer your own questions? Yes you do.

I'll tell you why I have a chip on my shoulder from just my very first experience with the system, although I'll have to omit quite a bit to keep it shorter.

As a 14yr old boy, I witnessed an event regarding a shooting where a man was left in a wheelchair for life.
To do the "right" thing for myself and for the system, I voluntarily approached the police and told them what I saw - an unavoidable mistake on my part, because this is who I was at that time.

Although I'd have much rathered been playing cricket with my friends, I was happy enough to spend about three hours filling out police reports.
A couple of days later, I was taken to a line-up to point out the person in question.

I expected the two way mirror like I'd seen on TV, but it was nothing like that.
Out the back of the run down police station, they had a bunch of similar looking blokes standing there expressionless in front of me. I immediately recognised the person in question and told the police that this was the guy that I saw.
This wasn't good enough. "No", said the policeman, "You've got to go closer and point at him".
My hand was shaking like a leaf as I pointed at the suspect.
"No" said the policeman. "You've got to get closer".
This continued until I eventually pointed to within an inch of touching the suspect on the chest.

When the first court case come around, I was dragged out of class unannounced to attend a county court hearing. This was on my 15th birthday. I expressed to the police the fears that I was feeling about this and asked if I could just go back to school. Policeman chuckles.
On the way to the county court, the police stopped at another police station for some reason and left me sitting there for what seemed an eternity.
The court case was pretty unnerving, but I said what I had to say.
I heard nothing after this, but was taken out of class for some additional statements at some other stage.
My closer friends knew as much as me as to what it was about, but I was the talk of the school for awhile because of the rumours that circulated.

The case eventually went to the Supreme court. This time I was given notice, but I had to make my own way there.
When I arrived, the witnesses and the jury were in the foyer chatting together, so the case was adjourned until a new jury was gathered a few weeks later.
When the time come for me to give testimony and point out the person in question, he wasn't there. The policemen who were either side of him looked around the courtroom with bemused looks on their faces as to where the accused was - he was sitting on the floor behind the stand.
They dragged him up so that I could point at him and give my testimony.

I heard nothing more about the case except for what I followed up for myself.
He got off the charges on the grounds of insanity and he went back to his residence just a few blocks from my house.

I heard nothing more from the police, but I very regularly saw the shooter.

Not surprisingly, I was a bit scared that he was going to come after me.
I spent lots of nights alone in those years, and although I put on an act that I wasn't worrying about it, I was.
I kept weapons under the bed, and I had everything planned in advance for when he would come to get me.
Any larger than usual creak of the house or unusual noise outside would wake me from my sleep and put me into my plan of action.
The summer months were particularly memorable when the house would creak more than usual.

Eventually I grew a bit more confident that I could take him on if needs be, and in later years I learned that he
had died from a drug overdose. My reaction was neither here nor there, I didn't really care.

In retrospect, I vowed to always look the other way.

The police always come aknockin' when they want money or a pound of flesh - They can go bugger themselves.

A respected police force should IMO happily put themselves in a 10, 20, or even 50% change of danger if their intentions are true.
They put me in that situation as a boy trying to do the right thing without so much as a phone call to see how I'm going.

And before you say..ohh boo hoo because I had to live in fear for a few years, it's just a situation which I could've easily avoided by going to the park to play cricket. The result of the court case would've been exactly the same without my involvment, but I wouldn't have seen how they treat people trying to do the right thing like pieces of meat which they own.i


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freediver
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #50 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 2:43pm
 
I'm surprised they didn't put him in an institution. Isn't that what usually happens when people get off on the grounds of insanity?

Quote:
A respected police force should IMO happily put themselves in a 10, 20, or even 50% change of danger if their intentions are true.


Yeah, good luck with that. You could come up with a new police recruitment campaign, guaranteeing them a 70% chance of living to retirement, plus the warm inner glow they get from wrestling with drug addicts so they can get the help they need.
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easel
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #51 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 2:52pm
 
I'll agree with Amadd that there are too many cops who are scum. They are a necessary evil though.

The situation they put you in (by not doing anything) was pretty bad. Cops love lying to the young, naive and inexperienced.
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Amadd
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #52 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 3:21pm
 
Quote:
I'm surprised they didn't put him in an institution. Isn't that what usually happens when people get off on the grounds of insanity?


Mental institutions in Victoria?
They cost money you know.
I think they were still around in those days, but were being phased out. He must've been under the care of his parents who he lived with.

Quote:
Yeah, good luck with that. You could come up with a new police recruitment campaign, guaranteeing them a 70% chance of living to retirement, plus the warm inner glow they get from wrestling with drug addicts so they can get the help they need.


The point is that if it's good enough for them to put me (and who knows how many others?) in a dangerous situation for free, then they can damnwell accept a few dangerous situations themselves.
It wasn't meant to be realistic.

I agree that they're a necessary evil.






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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #53 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 3:21pm
 
And suppose the cops did use their batons, they would be looking to take him out as quickly as possible. In other words, they would be swinging for the head, hard enough to knock him out cold. They probably would have killed him anyway. Might as well use a gun.
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #54 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 3:27pm
 
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If you aren't willing to share your knowledge for free, then why bring it up? You just profess to be the expert and everybody is supposed to bow to your superior knowledge.


I am an expert, and I have certificates issued by the state and the Commonwealth to prove it. You brought up the constitution, but couldnt back it up with anything on the lame basis that 'high court judges disagree, so mer mer mer blah blah'. You don't know, so say, I dont know. And we move on.

So you had a bad experience being a witness. They do treat witnesses like scum, and I would never be one unless I could not avoid it. Never go witness protection - they dont protect you for long.

Only until the case is over. Then you are on your own. And they dont care.

But thats everyone, everywhere. Sooner you realise that, sooner you can get on with life instead of expecting everyone to be fair, and kind and look after you.

But as for this clown - he pulled knives on cops and died. To be expected. Not the cops fault, on their crappy pay, im gonna expect they should take a carving knife to the throat? Yeah right. I would have blown that kid away too - if I was the cop. Im not going to be a pin cushion just because that kids had a hard life.

As I said above, things are rough all over.
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #55 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 3:35pm
 
Isn't this where the term 'suicide by cop' comes from?
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easel
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #56 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 4:12pm
 
Amadd do you know any good lawyer jokes?  Wink
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Amadd
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #57 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 4:24pm
 
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But thats everyone, everywhere. Sooner you realise that, sooner you can get on with life instead of expecting everyone to be fair, and kind and look after you.

Well I told you not to give me this boo hoo crap, but you couldn't help yourself could you?
I was stating just one reason why I don't expect help from the police, or anyone else for that matter. And yes, I learned at a young age that being a witness isn't a good idea.

Quote:
You don't know, so say, I dont know. And we move on.


Is it really that important to you that I state that I know nothing about the constitution? I know just a little, but ours is a very fractured one and it's hard to decifer just which laws are constitutional and which aren't.
For instance, legislations have been thrown on top of legislations which weren't even lawful in the first place.
They still continue to call councils local government when we've had referendums knocking back any recognition of them in our constitution. The most that I know about it, is that we're being bluffed out of our rights.
So tell me your pearls of knowledge about it for free or shutup about it.

Quote:
Not the cops fault, on their crappy pay, im gonna expect they should take a carving knife to the throat? Yeah right. I would have blown that kid away too - if I was the cop. Im not going to be a pin cushion just because that kids had a hard life.


Just because people accept that things are often tough and unfair, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't strive for something better.
I don't think it's a good idea for our society to be too accepting of this event.
The Vic. police have a reputation for being trigger happy, and it doesn't hurt to throw out a few suggestions or ask questions.
Yes my criticism of them is a bit harsh, but I've experienced a lot of crap from them, so that's what they get from me in return.

And why not use the dogs? They would've been well suited to this situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRC06MUWfAMi
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Amadd
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Mo

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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #58 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 4:30pm
 
Quote:
Amadd do you know any good lawyer jokes?


Heres one:

A man went to a brain store to get some brain to complete a study. He sees a sign remarking on the quality of professional brain offerred at this particular brain store. He begins to question the butcher about the cost of these brains.

"How much does it cost for engineer brain?"

"Three dollars an ounce."

"How much does it cost for programmer brain?"

"Four dollars an ounce."

"How much for lawyer brain?"

"$1,000 an ounce."

"Why is lawyer brain so much more?"

"Do you know how many lawyers we had to kill to get one ounce of brain?"
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Re: Did this child deserve to die?
Reply #59 - Dec 14th, 2008 at 5:34pm
 
Sorry for what happened to you Amadd but as far as I am concerned based on the story,lethal force is what was called for and was used. Even discounting the pepper spray part of the equation. Your type of stupid suggestions would be a danger to your partner and eventually the public at large.

The police ARE NOT trained to the level of the SAS and even they don't piss about in situations like this. The aimed at centre of mass and fired multiple rounds ate a young adult threatening people while declaring a death wish. Following your idiotic suggestions would have gotten someone hurt that didn't deserve to be.
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