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Muslim foum may need your input (Read 10590 times)
Gaybriel
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #30 - Dec 1st, 2008 at 11:44am
 
mantra wrote on Dec 1st, 2008 at 10:33am:
Quote:
I never said I didnt have a problem with it. in fact I do have a problem with it. but I wasn't asked whether I have a problem with it, I was asked what the 'hitting' was specifically- and I answered


Gaybriel - you are doing a good job on your own without Abu's back up. I'm glad you don't approve of a woman being hit under any circumstances.  It couldn't be easy answering all these questions and copping these insults and I mean that seriously, but there was a question I asked earlier that was overlooked.

Are muslim women allowed to hit their husbands (only as a last resort) when they are disobedient?


sorry I think I did answer it but I'll do it again just in case I didn't make it clear.

yes muslim women are allowed to hit their husbands. however- I do not know how widespread this opinion is, as I've only heard it from limited sources. as you probably know there is a lot of debate in islam over most issues- so there will be some people who say no, some who say yes.

I'll see if women hitting their husbands has a quranic or hadith reference for you (watch this space Tongue)

and yes- just to make it clear, I do not approve of hitting a woman under any circumstances. even if it is just a 'tap' as a 'last resort' - that is not designed to hurt but designed to be a symbolic action of 'you've crossed the line'- I find it extremely condescending in that capacity as well. if someone is so unreasonable that they won't respond to words then I doubt a tap on the shoulder is going to do much.
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mantra
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #31 - Dec 2nd, 2008 at 6:35am
 
Quote:
I'll see if women hitting their husbands has a quranic or hadith reference for you (watch this space )


Maybe you did mention it and I missed it.  It would be interesting to know why this practise is condoned at all, but even a small tap can get out of control.

You can imagine both husband and wife having an argument and he taps her - she taps him back harder - then he reciprocates, but harder.   It could get out of control very easily, but I'll wait for confirmation from you Gaybriel.

Thanks for your response.  

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Calanen
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #32 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:27pm
 
Quote:
yes muslim women are allowed to hit their husbands. however- I do not know how widespread this opinion is, as I've only heard it from limited sources. as you probably know there is a lot of debate in islam over most issues- so there will be some people who say no, some who say yes.


It might happen the other way around as a matter of practice, but only men beating women is given divine sanction in Islam.

Koran, 4.34

Quote:
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.


Not much room in that phrase for beating by women. Mohammed also struck Aisha at least once that is referred to, Koran 33.21 - for going out of the house without permission.

Certainly also, the imams in Arabic speak of being able to beat your wife, but also maintain, that you shouldnt overdo it. So no broken bones and no hitting in the face.  Lots of good youtube vids to this effect.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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freediver
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #33 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:42pm
 
What does 'guarding the unseen' refer to?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Calanen
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #34 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 10:42pm:
What does 'guarding the unseen' refer to?


That means covering up and protecting the naughty bits.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Gaybriel
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #35 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:26am
 
re quran 4.34

http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/additionaltranslations.html

http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/adifficultverse.html

http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/a_commentary_on_the_qura...

"Beat them". If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating. To this suggestion of the Holy Qur'an there have been two extreme reactions on the part of some Muslims. The first reaction is being apologetic or ashamed of the suggestion. The second is to use it as a justification for indulging in habitual wife battering. Needless to say that both these reactions are wrong. The Quran as we believe is the word of God and is thus every word in it is full of wisdom and love. To be apologetic about any part of the Quran is to lack both knowledge and faith. As for the second response, the suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behaviour that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage. Once it is clear that it is not working it is to be abandoned in favour of some other steps involving relatives of the husband and the wife mentioned in the next verse (4:35). There is therefore, absolutely no license here for the type of regular and continual wife beating that goes on in some homes, where each time the husband is angry with his wife or with someone else he turns against her and beats her up. In most such cases, the husband has no moral superiority over the wife: the only rule of Shariah that he cares about is this suggestion about beating. He also does not have the kind of control over his sexual passions needed to separate the wife in bed and often beats her the day before or the day after making love to her, an action specifically condemned by the Prophet. (4)

In regard to the suggestion about beating, the following further points should also be noted:

a) According to some traditions the Prophet said in his famous and well-attended speech on the occasion of his farewell pilgrimage that the beating done according to the present verse should be ghayr mubarrih, i.e. in such a way that it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt. On this basis some scholars like Tabari and Razi say even that it should be largely symbolic and should be administered "with a folded scarf" or "with a miswak or some such thing". However, to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions.

b) The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time. The suggestion applies only in the case when the husband is seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behaviour on the part of the wife but neither he nor the wife is as yet seriously thinking of breaking up.

c) If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Quran and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her.

d) Some fuqaha (Muslim jurists) are of the opinion that beating is permissible but not advisable. They base their view on the fact that the Prophet intensely disliked the action. But to say that beating is only permissible but never advisable is to say that there is never any good in it but the husband can nevertheless resort to it if he wants to; in other words he can beat up his wife without any good reason. This, however, is a view that cannot possibly be attributed to the Book of God. We can expect the Holy Qur'an to mention beating only if there was some wisdom in that mention. Now there are two possible points of wisdom in the mention. First, the beating done within the limits defined by the Qur'an may indeed bring the husband and wife to some kind of understanding. This is not because of the pain involved, which in any case cannot be too much if the guidance in the Quran and Hadith are to be observed. Rather, the husband and wife may come closer together after beating because of the emotions involved. The wife may experience the depth of hurt and disturbance her nushuz is causing and if there is any love left among them may decide for that reason to change her conduct. It seems from observations of human behaviour know that a show of male physical energy can sometimes bring a woman out of a prolonged bad mood (5) even though this energy may be seemingly directed against her in the form of angry words or a slap, provided in this manifestation of energy there is an undercurrent of love and desire for the woman and no real harm is done to the woman. In the situation with which the present verse is dealing, it is understood that in his heart the husband does have some love and desire for the wife. For, he has the option of divorcing her but he is not taking that option.
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Gaybriel
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #36 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:27am
 
[cont...]

Of course, there are husbands who neither love their wives nor divorce them, but keep them to punish them or exploit them. But we are not dealing with this situation here, since the assumption is that ill-will (nushuz) is from the wife's side. As for the argument that the Prophet intensely disliked beating, we can say that his intense dislike was for the type of beating done outside the limits set down by God. Second, the mention of beating may have the wisdom, ironically, to protect wives against what is called wife battering. The Quran does not always combat undesirable behavior by legal prohibition but by some other means. Experience also shows that legal prohibition of an action may not always be the most effective method to stop it. The Quran by requiring that before any beating there should be admonishing and separation of beds is providing a more effective measure against wife battering, since battering is the result of uncontrollable anger or aggression and this anger or aggression can be tamed during admonishing and separation of beds. No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups. "

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Gaybriel
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #37 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:30am
 
Calanen- can you provide the quote from 33.21?
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tallowood
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #38 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:38am
 
Quote:
The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time.


What are rules of islamic divorce? Do women and men get equal parts when they split under islamic law?

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Reality is a figment of imagination
 
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tallowood
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #39 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:43am
 
Quote:
No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups.


Which religious groups drug raped young girls to stadium and throw rocks at them in modern times?
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Gaybriel
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #40 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:56am
 
tallowood wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:38am:
Quote:
The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time.


What are rules of islamic divorce? Do women and men get equal parts when they split under islamic law?



good question I have no idea! will see what I can find out
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Gaybriel
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #41 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:56am
 
tallowood wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:43am:
Quote:
No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups.


Which religious groups drug raped young girls to stadium and throw rocks at them in modern times?


I must say I disagree with his last statement also. a bit head in the sand if you ask me
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Gaybriel
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #42 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 1:05am
 
Right to Inheritance

Another right of the Muslim woman which is a part of Islamic law is the right to inherit property. The method of division of inheritance is clearly laid down in the Qur'an and the general rule is that man gets double. This may if taken in isolation from other legislation appear to be unfair; however, it must be remembered that in accordance with the verse of the Qur'an quoted earlier, men are charged with the maintenance of all the women and children in their family, and therefore their necessary obligations of expenditure are far higher than those of women. The half-share that a woman inherits may therefore be considered a generous one since it is for herself alone. Any such money or property which a woman owns or any business which she runs is entirely her own and her husband has no right to any of it.

One of the consequences of the divorce is the commencement of waiting period for the wife. This usually lasts three months. If there is a pregnancy, it lasts as long as pregnancy lasts. The waiting period is basically a term of probation during which reconciliation can be attempted. It is also required to establish whether the wife has conceived. It also allows time for planning the future.

Maintenance of wife during the waiting period is on husband. The wife can not be expelled from her place of residence and he can not in any way harass her. These will constitute moral as well as criminal offence.

In case of divorce, the young children remain in the custody of their divorced mother. However, the father has to provide the cost of maintenance of young children though they remain under the custody of mother. (Ref : The Family Structure in Islam by Dr. Hammudah Abdul Ati).

http://www.jamaat.org/islam/divorce.html

(d) Financial Independence

According to Muslim Family Law, the responsibility for the wife's maintenance (nafqa) always remains with the husband. The wife has no corresponding obligation to support her husband. The Muslim law principle which has been jealously guarded and enforced by Muslim law courts is that a woman's property is hers alone. Period. Consequently, any property which a Muslim wife contributes towards the 'family's assets' (i.e. all the property accumulated during the marriage) remains hers alone and is not subject to division or sharing by the husband in the event of a marriage breakdown (unless otherwise agreed upon between the husband and wife). In other words, under the Muslim Law, her 'Net Family Property,' remains hers alone and with no corresponding obligation to share with her husband (unless both husband and wife have agreed to share). This is not the case in Ontario law. So to ensure that a woman's Islamic rights are protected in Canada, particularly with respect to the matrimonial home provision of the Ontario Law, it is suggested that both the husband and wife consult a specialist (i.e. lawyer who specializes in Ontario Family Law if they happen to live in Ontario) so as to explore with this lawyer the legal possibilities of accommodating the couple's wishes, as much as possible, by finding ways and means to legally circumvent the (Ontario) law with regards to the obligatory special equal sharing of the matrimonial home provision.(7)

http://www.islamfortoday.com/prenuptial.htm
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mantra
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #43 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 6:26am
 
Quote:
"Beat them". If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating. To this suggestion of the Holy Qur'an there have been two extreme reactions on the part of some Muslims. The first reaction is being apologetic or ashamed of the suggestion. The second is to use it as a justification for indulging in habitual wife battering. Needless to say that both these reactions are wrong. The Quran as we believe is the word of God and is thus every word in it is full of wisdom and love. To be apologetic about any part of the Quran is to lack both knowledge and faith. As for the second response, the suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behaviour that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage.


This is incredible - so it's wrong not to want to beat your wife.

First you're allowed to tap your wife - now some other interpretation says you can beat her.

Who determines whether her "nasty" behaviour justifies a beating - the angry husband?  Then if all else fails - go to your relatives for their advice.  No second guesses as to who they would support.

It's easy to say women can apply for a divorce, but after a person has been beaten for a period of time, they begin to believe they deserve it, especially if the Quran endorses it.

Obviously this would go on in Australia and you have to wonder if the women who are abused report it to the police.  Probably not - even though it is breaking Australia law.  

Quote:
The method of division of inheritance is clearly laid down in the Qur'an and the general rule is that man gets double. This may if taken in isolation from other legislation appear to be unfair; however, it must be remembered that in accordance with the verse of the Qur'an quoted earlier, men are charged with the maintenance of all the women and children in their family, and therefore their necessary obligations of expenditure are far higher than those of women.


So the men are all so decent that when they receive double the amount women receive in a marriage settlement - the difference goes towards the ongoing support of the ex wife and children.

Pull the other one.

I've made so many excuses for Muslims in the past - but this is abhorrent.  Seriously there has to be something wrong with Muslim women who live in Western countries in the 21st century and put up with all of the above.  Are they so submissive and weak that they will accept the teachings of someone from the 7th century?

Why hasn't the Quran been updated and modernised?  Why don't Muslim women question the inequality of this doctrine?  Surely in modern times they must look at their non-Muslim counterparts and wonder why they are so downtrodden in comparison.

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Calanen
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Re: Muslim foum may need your input
Reply #44 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 8:09am
 
Gaybriel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:30am:
Calanen- can you provide the quote from 33.21?


Sorry, was way too late in the evening and I didnt make a lot of sense.

What I was attempting to say was that 33.21 (I think going from memory here) says that Mohammed's prophet is to be emulated in all things, got the quote now:

Quote:
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.


And that we know from the hadith that Aisha was struck by Mohammed for leaving the house without permission. Given Mohammed is to be emulated, reasonable to assume all muslims can hit their wives for leaving the house without permission.

I will have to do a search for the Aisha hadith, but will show it when I find it again.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
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