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other religions (Read 13802 times)
freediver
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other religions
Nov 10th, 2008 at 2:39pm
 
There has been a lot of discussion here about the treatment of Christians and Jews under Islamic law. However, I can't seem to find out much about the treatment of atheists, Hindus and other religious groups. How does Islam command Muslims to treat such people?
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freediver
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Re: other religions
Reply #1 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 3:30pm
 
Is this why no-one wants to touch this topic? This seems to imply that it is pretty much open slather on other religions.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226444083

"As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: ‘We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us -- till you believe in Allah alone’ [Koran 60:4]. So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. And this fierce hostility -- that is, battle -- ceases only if the infidel submits to the authority of Islam, or if his blood is forbidden from being shed [i.e., a dhimmi], or if Muslims are at that point in time weak and incapable [i.e., taqiyya]. But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy!  Such, then, is the basis and foundation of the relationship between the infidel and the Muslim. Battle, animosity, and hatred -- directed from the Muslim to the infidel -- is the foundation of our religion. And we consider this a justice and kindness to them" (from The Al Qaeda Reader).
.....It bears repeating that this hostile world view is well supported by all of Islam’s schools of jurisprudence."
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Re: other religions
Reply #2 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 4:58pm
 
FD, I've tried a couple of times to get this cleared up. The problem mainly is the use of the term non-believers in the forum and people using it differently.

While the Jew and the Christian are non-believers they have a chance of survival and possibly acceptance, because they are people of the OLD BOOK and fortunately for them they believe in ONE God. But there is the next level of non-believer. Be afraid if you are one in a Muslim world.

The athiest, the Buddhist, the Taoist, the Hindu are quite simply in a world of hurt. If you are in this group there will be no guaranteed repeal, mercy or acceptance. This group is the lowest of the low and deserve whatever punishments that may hasten their deliverance to Allah.

I wonder if Gaybriel is aware of such fundamentalism. That ultimately with the monopoly of power that Islam aims for, her atheist self popping down the road to give her Muslim friends a hug will be a big no-no.

Like I say, I have tried to get a straight answer on this one.
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abu_rashid
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Re: other religions
Reply #3 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 8:31pm
 

There's a lot more religious diversity extant in the Islamic lands than there is in the Christian lands. So I'd suggest that Islam was far more tolerant than your own Christianity.

No doublt a deflection, doesn't answer your question, and most importantly isn't what you want to hear. But it's the cold hard truth that you need to hear. The proof is in the pudding, not in the theories of what would, should, could or might be done.
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Re: other religions
Reply #4 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 9:48pm
 
Are you deliberately concealing this from us, or do you just not know? As far as I can tell, Islam calls for their wholesale slaughter. Is that correct?
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abu_rashid
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Re: other religions
Reply #5 - Nov 12th, 2008 at 10:45pm
 

If it did, then we'd expect to only find Muslims, Jews & Christians existing in the MIddle East, wouldn't we? Yet there's probably about 20 different religions there... Perhaps more religions than anywhere else, with the exception of India, which was under Islamic rule for many centuries anyway.
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Re: other religions
Reply #6 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 6:00am
 
Well I think the Hindus might disagree with Aboos vision of peace under Islam.

As for others...  they'd be Dhimmis wouldn't they?
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Re: other religions
Reply #7 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 8:33am
 
Grendel wrote on Nov 13th, 2008 at 6:00am:
Well I think the Hindus might disagree with Aboos vision of peace under Islam.

As for others...  they'd be Dhimmis wouldn't they?


Hindu's still exist don't they Grendel.

How bout we ask the Aztecs, Omnecs and Mayan's what life under Christianity is like. Oh thats right, their whole civiliasations and cultures were completely wiped out.

Or the Saxons, or maybe the Cathars...or even Judism, who survived the Catholic onslaught by the skin of their teeth, and only prospered in medieval times whilst under the protction of muslims.

Hindu's/Budhists, both survived the harsh oppressive Islamic regime...whereas not one indigenous religous belief surived the apparently peaceful Christian rule. Not one.

mod: personal attack


And of course, lets not forget how well the Hindu'a were treated under the British empire.

Really, these are pathetic lies spread by Islamophobes, and truly anyone with half a brain can see them for what they are. Fact is, if Islam was as brutal as it is claimed, then explain why so many people not only converted to, but actually remained muslims for not only their lives, but for generation after generation to follow.

Take the Saxons for example....for hundreds of years after their 'forced conversions', they resisted the Catholic dogma. In fact, the Germanic saxons never actually really embraced Catholicism...despite being forced under the point of the sword to convert under that great Christian saint Charlemagne (being a murderer gets you saint hood...go figure).

For centuries Saxons delved into Arianism, Manichaeism, Cathars and later on Lutherian.

Fact is, people do not react kindly to force, and if one is forced to convert, then this conversion is only superficial, it is not true belief.

If someone is forced to convert, they won't be passing their beliefs onto their children...will they. Forced Conversion is destined to fail, every time. Religons will only flourish and belief comes from the heart, and Islam has flourished wherever it has spread. Once again, using simple logic rather easily exposes the lies
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« Last Edit: Nov 13th, 2008 at 1:19pm by Gaybriel »  
 
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Re: other religions
Reply #8 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 11:40am
 
Quote:
If it did, then we'd expect to only find Muslims, Jews & Christians existing in the MIddle East, wouldn't we?


Not really. You make the exact opposite argument when it is convenient to you - saying that what happens in the middle east is not a reflection of Islamic doctrine. I am asking about Islamic doctrine, not the actions of real people. Also, the doctrine may well call for slaughter of these people when it is in the broader interests of the caliphate, or negotiating agreements when that is in the interests of the caliphate.

I think it would make far more sense to establish what Islamic doctrine is first, rather than try to reverse engineer it from history. Unless of course you want to mislead people.

Quote:
Really, these are pathetic lies spread by Islamophobes


No Les, they are simple questions, which you and Abu are going to unusual lengths to respond to without answering.

Quote:
Fact is, if Islam was as brutal as it is claimed


I am asking questions Les, not making claims. You can't blame people for assuming Islam is evil when Muslims refuse point blank to clear the air on such an important issue. Abu has gone to great lengths to paint the treatment of Dhimmis as a kindness. If he sees that as a positive, then it must take something truly distrubing to produce this wall of silence from the two of you.
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Re: other religions
Reply #9 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 11:47am
 
oh dear...  the Crusades were a belated retaking of Jerusalem.

The Spanish were creating an empire...  and I have no truck with their behaviour etc.  (I wont even bother arguing with you re the genocides you claim.)   Nor do I with the Muslims who for 1000 years wiped out how many Indians/Hindus?  It is undisputed that this took place and it is the largest crime against humanity that has ever transpired.

Oh and I already explained that catholicism isn't Christianity and all about the Cathars and Lutherans etc...  did you actually learn something?  I somehow doubt it.
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Re: other religions
Reply #10 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 12:03pm
 

Quote:
Not really. You make the exact opposite argument when it is convenient to you - saying that what happens in the middle east is not a reflection of Islamic doctrine.


It's just a little bit different though, because if Islam called for the eradication of all non-Abrahemic religions, then there wouldn't be any, but there is. That's completely different to you for instance blaming some modern day result of the post-Caliphate governments on Islam.

Quote:
I am asking about Islamic doctrine, not the actions of real people


There's no Islamic doctrine that states non-Abrahemic subjects should be slaughtered en masse. Unless you've got one in mind, in which case you should stop beating around the bush and just post it.

However, paganism was decreed to be wiped out of the Arabian peninsula, but there was no mass slaughter, the Pagan Arabs recognised the truth of Islam anyway, and it never had to result to that.

Quote:
No Les, they are simple questions, which you and Abu are going to unusual lengths to respond to without answering.


Part of us being deceptive and such. Why do you bother even asking us, if you know we're just so deceptive?

Quote:
You can't blame people for assuming Islam is evil when Muslims refuse point blank to clear the air on such an important issue


You've proven time and time again, you're not interested in answers freediver, even when you get them, you resort to calling all Muslim habitual liars and deceivers. So please spare us this rot, about how hard it is for you to get a straight answer. We're just not inclined to engage you in the kind of loaded discussions you want, where you suggest something, and then go on to paint every answer or response as a lie, deflection, omission of truth etc.

You've even wasted your time making some half baked wiki about the whole issue. Really it's a joke.

Quote:
Abu has gone to great lengths to paint the treatment of Dhimmis as a kindness. If he sees that as a positive, then it must take something truly distrubing to produce this wall of silence from the two of you.


There's no wall of silence. Except in your anti-Islamic dreams.
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Re: other religions
Reply #11 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 12:10pm
 

Quote:
oh dear...  the Crusades were a belated retaking of Jerusalem.


Where did anyone mention the crusades?

Lestat only mentioned the atrocities of Christians inside Europe, not their escapades elsewhere.

Guilty conscience perhaps?

Quote:
The Spanish were creating an empire... ...Nor do I with the Muslims who for 1000 years wiped out how many Indians/Hindus?  It is undisputed that this took place and it is the largest crime against humanity that has ever transpired.


Firstly, if Muslims wiped out so many Hindus why did they always outnumber Muslims in India? Fact is we had centuries to wipe them out, and didn't. Yes I'm sure there were battles, some might have resulted in excesses, wasn't uncommon in those times, but there was certainly no systematic wiping out of Hindus as you claim (with your only source being an Orientalist European, who had no first hand knowledge of the situation at all).

And secondly, if it's good enough for the Spanish why not for the Muslims? We were building an empire too. The Spanish though wiped out an entire continent of people, no such thing occured in India.
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Re: other religions
Reply #12 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 12:18pm
 
Quote:
It's just a little bit different though, because if Islam called for the eradication of all non-Abrahemic religions, then there wouldn't be any, but there is.


How about you just say what Islamic doctrine is? Normally you are keen to judge Islam by it's doctrine rather than the actions of it's followers. Why is this suddenly reversed? It is not a little bit different, it is the same, except in this case the doctrine must be worse than the actions.

Quote:
There's no Islamic doctrine that states non-Abrahemic subjects should be slaughtered en masse.


So, one by one then, in an orderly fashion? Is this how the game works - I suggest possible doctrines, and you reject them if they don't match Islam, then fall silent when I get it right?

Quote:
Unless you've got one in mind, in which case you should stop beating around the bush and just post it.


Grin Grin Grin How about you stop beating around the bush. I have none in mind. I'm just asking what the Islamic doctrine is.

Quote:
However, paganism was decreed to be wiped out of the Arabian peninsula, but there was no mass slaughter, the Pagan Arabs recognised the truth of Islam anyway, and it never had to result to that.


So the pagans converted freely and willingly, avoiding the need for any blood to be spilled? The doctrine called for slaughter, but the people avoided it?

Quote:
Part of us being deceptive and such. Why do you bother even asking us, if you know we're just so deceptive?


Because your silence says far more than what you can bring yourself to admit.

Quote:
You've proven time and time again, you're not interested in answers freediver


Wrong Abu. Nothing of the sort has been proved. You are the only one here who is not interested in straight answers.

Quote:
So please spare us this rot, about how hard it is for you to get a straight answer.


Or, you could just give me a straight answer, then I wouldn't have to resort to accusing you of not giving a straight answer.

Quote:
We're just not inclined to engage you in the kind of loaded discussions you want


But you are that way inclined. I must concede you did a good job of ignoring this thorny issue for a long time. But now you have dived into the discussion. Though you still can't bring yourself to give an honest answer about Islamic doctrine.

Quote:
where you suggest something, and then go on to paint every answer or response as a lie, deflection, omission of truth etc


Abu, what else do you expect? This whole thread is based around a single, simple question. A question that has been avoided since this board started. A question that still hasn't been answered.

Quote:
There's no wall of silence. Except in your anti-Islamic dreams.


So why are you unable to answer the question? Why you you post so much, yet say so little? If it is not a wall of silence, what is it? A wall of deflection? A mirror?
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Re: other religions
Reply #13 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 1:31pm
 
Quote:
The doctrine called for slaughter


See, quite obviously this is what you believe the doctrine to be.

It's not Islamic doctrine to slaughter them, and I've already stated this. Yet you persist with your ridiculous claims about a wall of silence and deflections.

Now since you quite obviously believe it is, and have said so.. why not just bring forth whatever you claim it's based on, and then we casn actually engage in the discussion.

Really, if anyone can't justt discuss this straight it's obviously you.
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Re: other religions
Reply #14 - Nov 13th, 2008 at 1:35pm
 
I have added this to the wiki article on deception:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Silence
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