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freediver

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nationalism
Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:26pm

Abu has commented here a few times that Islam opposes nationalism, and that nationalism was introduced by the west to the middle east to maintain control over it, by dividing and conquering.

However, Islam itself is a far more radical form of nationalism. It compels it's followers to join the Islamic nation. It preaches superiority of members of the nation over non-members. Calling the nation a caliphate instead does not mean it isn't nationalism.

The problems inherent in familiar forms of nationalism are due to things like the implied sense of superioirty, the devaluing of citizens of other countries, and the agitation for war. All of these nasty views are made explicit in Islam. The worst aspects of war, which western leaders have been trying to eradicate for centuries, are specifically allowed in Islam - forced mass migration, the theft of all property, and even slavery. Islam goes beyond a false sense of entitlement or cultural superiority to a sense of divine, God-given superiority and then unleashes it's followers to violently act on that sense of superioirty.

I suspect that when Abu criticises nationalism in the middle east, it is not because he sees nationalism as inherently bad, but because it is the wrong flavour of nationalism. Rather than being too extreme, it is not extreme enough.

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Yadda

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Re: nationalism
Reply #1 - Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:58pm

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:26pm:

Abu has commented here a few times that Islam opposes nationalism, and that nationalism was introduced by the west to the middle east to maintain control over it, by dividing and conquering.

However, Islam itself is a far more radical form of nationalism. It compels it's followers to join the Islamic nation. It preaches superiority of members of the nation over non-members. Calling the nation a caliphate instead does not mean it isn't nationalism.

The problems inherent in familiar forms of nationalism are due to things like the implied sense of superioirty, the devaluing of citizens of other countries, and the agitation for war. All of these nasty views are made explicit in Islam. The worst aspects of war, which western leaders have been trying to eradicate for centuries, are specifically allowed in Islam - forced mass migration, the theft of all property, and even slavery. Islam goes beyond a false sense of entitlement or cultural superiority to a sense of divine, God-given superiority and then unleashes it's followers to violently act on that sense of superioirty.

I suspect that when Abu criticises nationalism in the middle east, it is not because he sees nationalism as inherently bad, but because it is the wrong flavour of nationalism. Rather than being too extreme, it is not extreme enough.

FD,

You may wish to understand the concept of the word Ummah,

"....an Arabic word meaning Community or Nation".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah

i.e. there is only one community of muslims all over the world.

And muslims identify as being a part of the ummah first, part of Australia, UK, Holland, etc, 2nd.

A devout muslims loyalty is always with ISLAM, exclusively.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: nationalism
Reply #2 - Nov 7^th, 2008 at 10:06pm

Islam opposes both nationalism and tribalism. This is because they are bonds based on racial/ethnic ties that have no value in Islam.

Of course Islam does does not oppose members of national unit having pride in their nation, but for Muslims it cannot be based on ethnic or racial ties, it should be based on belief in Islam.

All the other rot about superiority and thieving properties, like most of your other crap freediver derives only from your own fantasies, I really don't know what you think you achieve by posting it.

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freediver

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Re: nationalism
Reply #3 - Nov 7^th, 2008 at 10:56pm

Quote:

Islam opposes both nationalism and tribalism. This is because they are bonds based on racial/ethnic ties that have no value in Islam

.

Nationalism is based on national ties, like belonging to the same caliphate. Americans for example come from lots of different races, ethnicities and cultures. Yet they still show strong nationalism. Calling your country a caliphate rather than a nation, basing membership on religion in addition to geography, does not mean that the false sense of superiority and entitlement is not nationalism.

Islam does not oppose nationalism, it opposes any form of nationalism that does not serve the spread of the ideology. It fosters the most extreme form of nationalism when it is assists the spread of Islam.

Quote:

All the other rot about superiority and thieving properties, like most of your other crap freediver derives only from your own fantasies

Are you saying Islam does not permit the taking of spoils of war? Are you saying it does not preach superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims?

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abu_rashid

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Re: nationalism
Reply #4 - Nov 8^th, 2008 at 10:07am

Quote:

Are you saying Islam does not permit the taking of spoils of war?

"If Kuwait grew carrots we wouldn't give a damn". Show me any nation/empire in the history of humanity that didn't take spoils of war. I don't think these things themselves are ridiculous, I think your mentioning of them as being purely Islamic concepts is what's ridiculous.

Quote:

Are you saying it does not preach superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims?

Nope, not saying that at all, but again, show me a nation/empire in the history of humanity that hasn't.

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: nationalism Reply #5 - Nov 8^th, 2008 at 11:16am Just because something has been done, or is being done by someone else, it doesn't make it right. You continually comment on what the Jews, Christians or the west has done or is doing as if it's some sort of defence or excuse for the abhorrent stuff Islam does. It isn't.
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freediver

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Re: nationalism
Reply #6 - Nov 8^th, 2008 at 12:27pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 10:07am:

Quote:

Are you saying Islam does not permit the taking of spoils of war?

"If Kuwait grew carrots we wouldn't give a damn". Show me any nation/empire in the history of humanity that didn't take spoils of war. I don't think these things themselves are ridiculous, I think your mentioning of them as being purely Islamic concepts is what's ridiculous.

Quote:

Are you saying it does not preach superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims?

Nope, not saying that at all, but again, show me a nation/empire in the history of humanity that hasn't.

I never said they were purely Islamic concepts. In fact what I am arguing is that Islam's promotion of blind nationalism makes is similar to other insidious ideologies, not different. You were the one trying to argue that Islam is somehow different in regard to nationalism. I was just pointing out how hollow this argument is. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. You will argue that Islam is better or different, then when we point out that it isn't, you will turn around and argue that it is no different.

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Yadda

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Re: nationalism
Reply #7 - Nov 8^th, 2008 at 12:28pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 10:06pm:

All the other rot about superiority and thieving properties, like most of your other crap freediver derives only from your own fantasies, I really don't know what you think you achieve by posting it.

abu,

Not entirely.

There is the information contained within the Koran.

You are a muslim abu.

You know that the Koran teaches ISLAMIC supremacism, war fighting against 'unbelievers', and further encroachment of their lands, to bring the 'peace' of ISLAM, Sharia, to those lands, and all of the world.

And of course, there is the inducement of all of that booty, which actually, 'rightfully', belongs to muslims.
....that is what Allah has said.

Allah has overcame the Jews & Christians, 'and cast terror into their hearts'.
Everything that the un-believers have, THEIR LANDS, their possessions, belongs to muslims!
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.025
v. 25 - 27
COMMENT...These verses are an encouragement to muslims to Jihad, to strive for victory, and for the 'WAR BOOTY', which is Allah's 'gift' to muslims.

It is not you [believers] who overcame the Jews & Christians; it was Allah:
It was Allah, he makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the unbelievers to resist you.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#008.017
v. 17 & 18

The muslims will overcome the unbelievers.
And as each new land falls to the influence of ISLAM,
....the unbelievers must see who will win.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#021.043
v. 43 & 44

But ISLAM is peace, not supremacism.
/sarc off

"Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.101

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.216

Have no mercy for those who oppose Allah, or resist the spread of ISLAM.
Make no peace with them, kill them when you have the upper hand.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#047.034
v. 34 & 35

Muslims should be unmerciful towards the unbelievers, but be compassionate amongst each other.
Allah has promised those who believe and do RIGHTEOUS DEEDS, forgiveness, and A GREAT REWARD.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/048.qmt.html#048.029

Hadith....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.0...

What does this all mean?

That ISLAM is peace????

Of course it does.
/sarc off

War fighting in this world.

This has nothing to do with religion.

Pure religion is the search for truth.

When muslim 'missionaries' invaded north Africa, and southern Europe in the 700's, they came not with persuasion, but with their swords.

ISLAM is about war fighting, deception, accumulating the booty of this world.

ISLAM is about seeking political, worldly, power.

CONFIRM THIS FOR YOURSELF.

STUDY THE KORAN, AND THE HADITH.
.....AND LOOK AT THE BEHAVIOUR OF MEN, WHO CLAIM TO BE MUSLIMS.

When we die, as we soon must, we take none of this world with us.

All you will take with you, is that which is in your heart.

Don't be foolish children.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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« Last Edit: Nov 8^th, 2008 at 12:34pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: nationalism
Reply #8 - Feb 8^th, 2009 at 1:23pm

Quote:

but for Muslims it cannot be based on ethnic or racial ties, it should be based on belief in Islam

So Islam supports nationalism when it is support for an Islamic state, but opposes it when it is in support of a non-Islamic state. The 'against nationalism' spin has nothing to do with the problems that nationalism causes, but is merely about helping Islam as a nation?

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: nationalism Reply #9 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 9:59am Quote: So Islam supports nationalism... If it's not based on racial, ethnic, tribal, citizenship lines, then it's not nationalism is it? Do you actually know what nationalism is fd? It appears not. The Islamic bond is a spiritual/ideological bond, it has nothing at all to do with nationalism.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47350 At my desk.	Re: nationalism Reply #10 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 10:20am Quote: The Islamic bond is a spiritual/ideological bond, it has nothing at all to do with nationalism. Except that the ideology which binds them also calls them to be a member of the Islamic nation. Islam is a political and nationalistic ideology as well as a religion.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: nationalism Reply #11 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:04pm The Islamic bond transcends all nationalistic boundaries, it's simply not the same.
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freediver

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Re: nationalism
Reply #12 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:14pm

But this is about nationalism, not the 'Islamic bond'. The nationalism is the same. It just gets subjected to the needs of Islam in the same way as everything else. Making it religious in nature rather than the more arbitrary distinctions commonly used elsewhere just heightens the nationalistic fervour. It combines every possible ideology, including blind rampant nationalism, into an 'us-vs-them' apartheid society and expansionist military machine.

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abu_rashid

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Re: nationalism
Reply #13 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:26pm

As I stated, there's no such thing as nationalism amongst Muslims, only the Islamic bond.

Except for those misguided people who've been misled into believing in nationalism.

Muhammad (pbuh) clearly stated about nationalism:

Whoever dies fighting for it, dies in jahiliyah (ignorance).
And described it as a coal from the coals of hellfire.
And said "Leave it, it is rotten".

Nationalism is therefore prohibited in Islam, simple.

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Calanen

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Re: nationalism
Reply #14 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:30pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:26pm:

As I stated, there's no such thing as nationalism amongst Muslims, only the Islamic bond.

Except for those misguided people who've been misled into believing in nationalism.

Which is why we should question your loyalty, all of you. Because unlike true citizens who pledge allegiance to the Crown, Muslims are fair weather friends, who will desert to ally with the ummah against us whenever it suits.

Quote:

Nationalism is therefore prohibited in Islam, simple.

Then maybe Nationalism can prohibit Islam. Sounds fair to me.

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Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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