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cleric is the correct term - get over it (Read 9238 times)
freediver
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cleric is the correct term - get over it
Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:28pm
 
This is getting really tedious. You cannot get a straight answer about the actions of Muslims clerics because apparently there is no such thing. If you don't get it right your question doesn't get answered - you just get a complaint from Abu that you used the wrong term, yet again, despite his continual protest that there is no such thing. If you ask what the correct term is - he says to ask someone else. WTF?

Well, there is such a thing as a Muslim cleric:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergyman

It is often used to refer to the religious leadership in Islam, where the term "priest" is not accurate and where terms such as "Alim" are not widely understood in the English-speaking world.

I hate to break it to you Abu, but English is defined by how people use it. If people use the word cleric to refer to a Muslim religious leader, then that's what a Muslim religious leader is. It is deceptive to claim that Muslims religious leaders don't exist on the grounds that they are slightly different from other religious leaders - Duh - it's a different religion.

Just get over it and give a straight answer.
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abu_rashid
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #1 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:35pm
 
It's not the term that's the problem, it's the concept. Islam is clearly against the concept of a clergy and clerics.

However, since you need a shaman type guy to blame stuff on, you gotta invent one. Sorry, but it's just not part of our religion.

As for the direction to ask Malik, yes that's because the Shi'a have instituted some form of clergy (it would seem, correct me if I'm wrong malik), and therefore if you'd like to know about it, you should ask a Shi'a, as I don't believe in it.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergyman.


Yeh, since I take my religion from wikipedia, I'm really inclined to go with that... NOT.

Quote:
It is deceptive to claim that Muslims religious leaders don't exist on the grounds that they are slightly different from other religious leaders - Duh - it's a different religion.


Even though clergy is non-denominational, and could  be used to refer to any religion, in the case of Islam, it can't, because Islam simply doesn't have aa priesthood, no matter what you wanna call it. There's simply no priestly class of Muslims.
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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:41pm by abu_rashid »  
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abu_rashid
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #2 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:39pm
 

And actually if you goto: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy

You'll find it says this:

Islam


Sunni Islam is non-clerical.
The term "imam" is generically used to refer to various forms of religious leadership, ranging from the leader of a small group prayer to a scholar of religion, none of which involve any sort of religious ordination. In Shia Islam, the term "imam" has more specific meanings. The word literally means "in front of" in Arabic and harkens to the Imam's role of leading prayer by standing in front of the congregation. The Ulema are the class of Muslim scholars primarily devoted to the study of and, in some governments, the implementation of the Shari'a, or Islamic Law.



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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #3 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 12:44am
 
yeah been there done that on another topic fd.
Aboo's credibility as an honest broker is shot.
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #4 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 8:07am
 

grendel - I disagree, Abu never had a reputation as a honest broker.


Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #5 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 8:26am
 
Semantics. A favourite of muslim defence.
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #6 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 9:07am
 
However, since you need a shaman type guy to blame stuff on, you gotta invent one.

There is no invention. In each case the cleric is a real person. In each case (except that Aussie hoax) he is a genuine leader with a genuine following. Would you prefer we started referring to all clerics as cult leaders instead, seeing as the Muslim community rejects any responsibility for the crackpot clerics that arise.

As for the direction to ask Malik, yes that's because the Shi'a have instituted some form of clergy (it would seem, correct me if I'm wrong malik), and therefore if you'd like to know about it, you should ask a Shi'a, as I don't believe in it.

Thanks, but I'll just use the term cleric. Now there is no need for you to lie to me and tell me that there is no such thing as a cleric. Maybe one day you could even answer the question about him. Actually, the question was not about the cleric at all, it was about Cat Stevens. It just included a reference to one. But that was enough.

Yeh, since I take my religion from wikipedia

It's not about religion, it's about semantics. Every western newspaper uses the term cleric. It does not mean that Islam has clergymen. It refers to an Islamic leader. Muslims are welcome to promote the use of more accurate terms, but until they do so it is little more than a diversionary tactic to avoid answering questions. Is it really necessary to figure out what sort of leader he is before you can answer a simple question about him, like why does he have a following?

Even though clergy is non-denominational, and could  be used to refer to any religion, in the case of Islam, it can't

Yes it can. It is.

because Islam simply doesn't have aa priesthood

It doesn't refer to a priesthood in the context of Islam. It refers to an Islamic leader. You are welcome to supply the correct term. We will even use it once we figure out what terms are correct. But when we don't know we will use the generic term for an Islamic leader. Go ahead and correct us, but please don't pull out the old BS line that "I cannot possibly answer your question because you used the wrong term, and I can't be bothered giving you the correct term either."
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #7 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 9:31am
 
When Hilali was the Mufti of Australia... the title and position referred to the leader of a community...  in fact the community was the Muslim population of Australia.

Muslims being exclusively followers of Islam therefore he was the head of Islam in Australia and this I pressume is why he was used as a spokesman on Religious issues and invited to many Islamic forums overseas.
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 9:37am
 
Quote:
Yes it can. It is.


It's a misnomer.

Clergy and cleric do have specific meanings, and you can't just cast them aside, just because the mainstream media does. This paragraph from wikipedia is probably about the most accurate description of why the terms clergy and cleric are incorrect.

"There is a significant difference between clergy and theologians; clergy have the above-mentioned duties while theologians are scholars of religion and theology, and are not necessarily clergy. A lay-person can be a theologian."

In Islam there are theologians, or scholars of the religion, but there's no equivalent of a clergy. I know that makes it difficult for you to 'grab a hold' of Islam sometimes, because you've been duped into believing there's these 'mad mullahs' that run around whipping everyone into violent anti-western crazed frenzies... But it simply isn't the case.

Why did you completely pass over the statement from wikipedia "Sunni Islam is non-clerical"??

Quote:
It refers to an Islamic leader. You are welcome to supply the correct term.


The problem still is that there's no leadership role like what you're suggesting. Islamic communities are arranged differently, and there's no fixed post of cleric (regardless of the Arabic/English terminology difference). If the post existed, I'd have no problem with you using the English term, that's not the issue, the issue is the post that you're referring to simply doesn't exist.

I have no cleric or priest or any equivalent in relation to me whatsoever.

What you really need to understand is that Islam simply doesn't have the same structure as other religions you're more accustomed to. I know you've been taught that Islam is all about blind following and that we just believe whatever our 'clerics' tell us, but this just highlights the stupidity of such statements, because there's no 'clerics' even to begin with.
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« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2008 at 9:45am by abu_rashid »  
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #9 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 10:07am
 
I think Abu has gone to have his trousers extinguished.

Grin Grin Grin

or maybe he is looking for some lost posts, gee this board is holey, things just keep disappearing.
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #10 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 12:12pm
 
Clergy and cleric do have specific meanings, and you can't just cast them aside, just because the mainstream media does.

That's how the English language works. If the Muslim mcommunity continues to play silly buggers with semantics, cleric will end up being the generic term used to refer to a muslim religious leader. It doesn;t mean we think there are clergy. It means we think there are leaders.

I know that makes it difficult for you to 'grab a hold' of Islam sometimes, because you've been duped into believing there's these 'mad mullahs' that run around whipping everyone into violent anti-western crazed frenzies...

[mod: please refrain from making baseless accusations]

Why did you completely pass over the statement from wikipedia "Sunni Islam is non-clerical"??

Because cleric is used as the generic term for Muslim religious leader despite this.

The problem still is that there's no leadership role like what you're suggesting.

Yes there is. You even conceded this with you list of various acceptable terms for different types of leaders.

Islamic communities are arranged differently, and there's no fixed post of cleric

That's not what Muslim cleric refers to. It trefers to the leader, not the fixed post.

What you really need to understand is that Islam simply doesn't have the same structure as other religions you're more accustomed to.

I do understand this. I am not trying to say that Muslims have a clergy. I am trying to say that they have leaders, and that it is stupid to refuse to answer questions about those leaders over a purely semantic issue. Fair enough if you want to give the correct term, but you use it as a purely diversionary tactic. You use it as an excuse to pretend there are no leaders and therefor no need to answer questions about why Muslim leaders do and say objectionable things all the time. You use it as an excuse to preted that Muslims have no responsibility for what Muslim religious leaders do and say. You only acknowledge leaders when it reflects well on Islam, then rpetend there is no such thing as a leader when they do something stupid.

It's a fact of life. People will come up with an agreed upon word to refer to something that would otherwise need a few words to communicate. We are not going to forever use terms like 'Muslim religious leader with no official fixed position' just to appease Muslims and make it difficult to talk about Islam. We will use a single word. If the Muslim community does not supply the approriate word so they can decieve us more easily, we will choose one of our own.
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« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2008 at 4:33pm by abu_rashid »  

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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #11 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 12:15pm
 
So there is no hierachy? Didn't you say recently something about following your Iman blindly? What is an Iman?

If we would like to use the correct term, help us out.

Can you provide a hierachical picture of the faith organisation. Please.
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #12 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 1:42pm
 
locutius wrote on Oct 29th, 2008 at 12:15pm:
So there is no hierachy? Didn't you say recently something about following your Iman blindly? What is an Iman?

If we would like to use the correct term, help us out.

Can you provide a hierachical picture of the faith organisation. Please.


http://quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm
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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #13 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 2:12pm
 

gaybriel - you are not a dhimmi (yet).

Are we in islam already ? Abu/lestat can answer. that is why they are here.

did you both realise how much of a poor job you have done in helping us poor infidels understand how great you are ???


why do I ask that question?
Do I dare?
Will it get deleted?
What is today?
Did you know it is a new moon today !!!

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Re: cleric is the correct term - get over it
Reply #14 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 3:00pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 29th, 2008 at 2:12pm:
gaybriel - you are not a dhimmi (yet).

Are we in islam already ? Abu/lestat can answer. that is why they are here.

did you both realise how much of a poor job you have done in helping us poor infidels understand how great you are ???


why do I ask that question?
Do I dare?
Will it get deleted?
What is today?
Did you know it is a new moon today !!!



huh?
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