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Islam and lying to non-Muslims (Read 33714 times)
freediver
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Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Oct 28th, 2008 at 5:25pm
 
There appears to be some kind of trend for Muslims in position of authority to issue misleading press releases etc. They tend to convey messages that are likely to be misinterpretted by most westerners who take them at face value, especially if they are ignorant of Islam. These 'lies of omission' seem to be based on using using terms for their Islamic meaning when the intended audience will attach the common western meaning. It boils down to saying 'Muslims wouldn't dare to anything wrong or illegal', with the hidden meaning being that they would do things that most westerners consider wrong or illegal, but are legal under Islam, or under the interpretation of Islam used by whoever is making the statement.

I think that Islamic doctrine actually encourages the deception of non-Muslims as a core strategy.

Some examples:

Saying that killing innocent civilians is wrong - but only Muslims are innocent.

In response to a death penalty fatwa for something that would normally be protected by free spoeech, saying you do not support vigilantism - but the proper enforcement of the death penalty is not vigilantism.

Saying that Islam's goal is peace - but meaning that peace is when the whole world is subjected to Islamic law, and that non-Muslim areas are considered to be places of war until this 'peace' is achieved.

Saying you do not support pedophilia - but supporting the marriage of young girls at any age, supporting sex with girls once they hit puberty, and allowing old men to take home pre-pubescent child brides on the 'expectation' that they will do the right thing with them.

Saying that Islam is about brotherhood - but only with other Muslims.

Saying that Islam treats non-Muslims well - yet it actively discriminates against Christians and Jews so that they are forced into humiliation, so that even the most lowly Muslim will feel materially superior to them and thus not be 'tempted'. Other religions and athiests are treated even worse.

Giving examples of the situations where certain behaviours are acceptable and creating the impression that the list is exhaustive - when it isn't. For example saying that Muslims may only have for wives and that all forms of sex outside of marriage are forbidden and punished by death by stoning or whipping, but failing to mention concubinage. Or saying that certain things are only acceptable in times of war, but failuing to mention that Islam is at war until it conquers the world. Or saying that slaves can only be taken in war, but failing to mention slavery as a punishment for Dhimmis who do not behave in the appropriately humiliating way.

Where such a deception is not possible, the next best alternative appears to be changing the subject and pointing out situations where Muslims are not treated well, while ignoring the issue of whether Islamic doctrine enourages mistreatment.
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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2008 at 5:35pm by freediver »  

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jordan484
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #1 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 7:07pm
 
Yep, you've got it spot on.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Grendel
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #2 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 7:19pm
 
Grin Grin Grin
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Lestat
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #3 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 8:58pm
 
Freediver...

Can you provide examplel...or are you just talking crap again. I suspect its the latter.

But alas, your cheerleading Islamophobes are here....must make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #4 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:06pm
 

Lestat don't waste your time with losers on stuff like this. No matter what they say, and no matter what you reply, they can always weasel their way out of it and claim you're using taqiyyah and lying to them. So don't beat your head against the brickwall even conversing with them on such garbage.

It's called a mirage argument. Everytime you goto answer it, it disappears, into claims you're lying to them cos they're non-muslims. Leave them to their mirage.
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jordan484
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #5 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:17pm
 
So the muslim position is to lie, or to claim you're not lying but then refuse to elaborate or converse in any way.

You people sure know how to prove you're admirable. Oh but that's right, you don't need to prove anything to anyone (especially non-muslims). So excuse us while we keep making assumptions, because that's all you've left us with. And don't bitch about it when we do, it's you're own stupid fault.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Lestat
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #6 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:20pm
 
jordan484 wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 9:17pm:
So the muslim position is to lie, or to claim you're not lying but then refuse to elaborate or converse in any way.

You people sure know how to prove you're admirable. Oh but that's right, you don't need to prove anything to anyone (especially non-muslims). So excuse us while we keep making assumptions, because that's all you've left us with. And don't bitch about it when we do, it's you're own stupid fault.


lol..you talking about admirable. I've seen toe rags that are more admirable then you.

Jordon....go back and crawl that rock you call your home....I'm getting sick of your hypocricy.

And stop squealing like a b(tch...your whining is making me sick..not to mention your stench. Cheesy
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freediver
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #7 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:32pm
 
Here's another example - claiming that there is no such thing as a Muslim religious leader, because the term that the west has adopted - cleric - is not your preferred term for a Muslim religious leader.

Actually, that is another common tactic which I have seen used here a couple of times. When people start to catch on and ask more direct questions, Muslims will start to get hung up on terminology. They will respond with an unhelpful criticism of your terminology that does not seek to help you phrase it better or to inform you of anything, but merely seeks to avoid the question. Then even if you do bend over backwards to get the question in the 'right' form, they give a flat-out refusal to answer, usually with a complaint about asking questions in some kind of 'mean' manner. Any question is for some absurd reason either too indirect or too direct for them to answer.

Lestat wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 8:58pm:
Freediver...

Can you provide examplel...or are you just talking crap again. I suspect its the latter.

But alas, your cheerleading Islamophobes are here....must make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


Uh Les, what do you think the opening post is? Read it.

Lestat don't waste your time with losers on stuff like this. No matter what they say, and no matter what you reply, they can always weasel their way out of it and claim you're using taqiyyah and lying to them.

I don't know whether it is Taqiyyah or not. I'm sure you have a special word for it. I just know it is deceptive. Perhaps you can explain what is going on.
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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:38pm by freediver »  

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freediver
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 11:14am
 
I expanded on this topic and created an article in the wiki about it:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims

I am yet to put in any links back to this forum, but I hope to have several examples of each type of deception in action. Feel free to add any yourself (but create an account for yourself if you don't want your IP address made public). The wiki is really easy to edit. To add a link, just type in something like:

Code:
[http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225178712/0#8] 

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Yadda
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #9 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 9:10am
 
freediver,

Good 1st post on this thread.

Yes, when speaking to non-muslims, muslim spokesmen often use a form of words, which has an 'apparent' meaning for [naive] non-muslims, and another, 2nd 'insider' meaning, for those who are Lovers of Sharia.

Just more duality, from the masters deflection.

And where non-muslims start to 'cotton on' to what muslims are really, really, saying, then comes denial, and accusation of a 'mis-representation', and 'mis-interpretation'.




THE TRUTH IS.....

That no matter what you [a non-muslim] think a Lover of Sharia is saying to you, as you hear the words come out of his mouth, think, and understand only this,
....for a devout muslim, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.


If you wish to know what those things are, study the Koran, and the Hadith.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/001.qmt.html#001.001


In any [political] environment where deception is in play, there is an old adage,

"Don't listen to what people say, LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO!"





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #10 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 9:38am
 
In the movie "Body Of Lies", when the CIA guy is talking to the terrorist leader, he accuses him of killing other muslims, and goes on to say how I suppose you do not consider that killing, for any muslim that dies in the cause of allah is not really dead.

I would like to know what koranic verse that relates to, because it really seems to give them open slather to kill anyone, at any time, for any reason, with religiously sanctioned impunity.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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Yadda
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #11 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 11:48am
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 9:38am:
In the movie "Body Of Lies", when the CIA guy is talking to the terrorist leader, he accuses him of killing other muslims, and goes on to say how I suppose you do not consider that killing, for any muslim that dies in the cause of allah is not really dead.

I would like to know what koranic verse that relates to, because it really seems to give them open slather to kill anyone, at any time, for any reason, with religiously sanctioned impunity.






"....because it really seems to give them open slather to kill anyone, at any time, for any reason, with religiously sanctioned impunity."

Correct.
.....in my opinion.



mozzaok,


I think i have address this issue here.....

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225331087/0#0




Yadda
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #12 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 1:52pm
 
What makes me wonder about the honesty of many Islamic "instructors" is the continuing of the myth of 72 virgins (making God seem like a pimp in a celestial slut house). I'm told it derives from a mistranslation which remains largely uncorrected. I was listening to a podcast of an Israeli reporter (a Jew - can't remember his name) who regularly interviews Jihadists in the Gaza strip (having secured their trust) who, only when pushed on the subject, will reluctantly admit that the verse is a mistranslation (although apparently they still continue the myth among young Jihadists).

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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #13 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:08pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 1:52pm:
What makes me wonder about the honesty of many Islamic "instructors" is the continuing of the myth of 72 virgins (making God seem like a pimp in a celestial slut house). I'm told it derives from a mistranslation which remains largely uncorrected. I was listening to a podcast of an Israeli reporter (a Jew - can't remember his name) who regularly interviews Jihadists in the Gaza strip (having secured their trust) who, only when pushed on the subject, will reluctantly admit that the verse is a mistranslation
(although apparently they still continue the myth among young Jihadists)
.







Helian,


In the East, and in the West.......

....sex sells.



We are such sensual creatures, .....are we not?



Er, also Helian, consider this....

There is the other  treat  in Allah's paradise.

Wine.

Rivers of sweet wine.



While alcohol is prohibited to those muslims still on earth,

......in Allah's paradise, for all who make it there, they can 'satisfy' themselves with the de-flowering all of virgins they can cope with,
AND they can get drunk to boot!

p.s. apparently, the 72 virgins, have their virginity 'renewed' by Allah, after every de-flowering.
....he is the master of the universe.

Shocked

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Islam and lying to non-Muslims
Reply #14 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:13pm
 
Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:08pm:
p.s. apparently, the 72 virgins, have their virginity 'renewed' by Allah, after every de-flowering.
....he is the master of the universe.


No need if its a mistranslation.
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Conviction is the art of being certain
 
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