Australian Politics Forum - Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.

Sprintcyclist

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Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Oct 26^th, 2008 at 6:46pm

"AN Indonesian child protection agency is investigating reports of a marriage between a Muslim cleric and a 12-year-old girl, the Jakarta Post newspaper reports.

The newspaper said the 43-year-old cleric from Central Java allegedly married the minor girl with her parents' consent in August and planned to marry two more girls, aged seven and nine.

The Government-backed Indonesian Child Protection Commission (KPAI) plans to question the cleric, the girl, her parents, the minister who married them and witnesses of the marriage.

Under the Indonesian law, a woman must be at least 16 years old to marry. Marriage with a minor carries a maximum of five years.

The cleric is a rich businessman who owns a Muslim boarding school in Central Java. He made headlines in local newspapers after donating billions of rupiah to the poor during the fasting month of Ramadan.

His first wife is 26. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24554258-12377,00.html

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #1 - Oct 26^th, 2008 at 6:53pm Well it does show "some" morality, he could just buy orphans for sex if he wanted to, but he chooses to marry them, he is only following his religions example, and teachings, so respect for other religions dictates we give him an "attaboy", follow your faith.
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39508 Gender:	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #2 - Oct 26^th, 2008 at 7:24pm He is indeed following his religions example and teachings. Pity it is against the laws of the "Under the Indonesian law, a woman must be at least 16 years old to marry. Marriage with a minor carries a maximum of five years." Still, good to see which laws he follows
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #3 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 12:48am that is chronically gross
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abu_rashid

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #4 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 6:40am

Less than 100 years ago in most Western countries 12 was age of consent, and in quite a few countries today (not just Muslim ones) it still is.

I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross, yet marrying another man is now all of a sudden normal and not gross in the slightest...

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Gaybriel

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #5 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 7:19am

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 6:40am:

Less than 100 years ago in most Western countries 12 was age of consent, and in quite a few countries today (not just Muslim ones) it still is.

I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross, yet marrying another man is now all of a sudden normal and not gross in the slightest...

first of all in Indonesia the age of consent is 16- so it was illegal anyway. So his very act of marrying her was haram because he broke the laws of the country.

Secondly, two men marrying each other has a very important element that this does- mutual adult consent.

Children do not have the ability to discern what they want need and what is good for them. There is so much room for manipulation and abuse when a child marries a man- there is no guarantee as to the man's character and the child is essentially defenceless against him.

Even if the child has a loving family and support system- that means nothing if you know anything about child psychology. It's very easy to intimidate and manipulate children. A 43 year old man is a lot more sophisticated than a 12 year old girl.

Thirdly- note that the article mentioned the parents consenting to the marriage but did not mention anything about the child consenting.

Then again this is a moot point- for it is my opinion that a 12 year old does not have the capacity to consent to marriage and sexual relations.

the fact that this used to be legal in western countries less than 100 years ago means sweet FA. It's not going to make me agree with it, or give this act some kind of authority via historical tradition. There were many things 100 years ago, and even now, that I do not morally agree with and the mere fact that they exist or have existed does little to sway me from that point of view.

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #6 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 7:28am Quote: I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross Therein lies the problem with you people.
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freediver

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #7 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 8:01am

What's even stranger is that this guy is a cleric - he holds a position of respect within the community. For some reason he thought that meant he could get away with openly flouting Indonesia law.

I remember there was a discussion recently where the Muslims present defended the right of the Indonesian government to impose it's standards on the citizens of Bali, who do not generally share them. What are those same Muslims saying now?

Quote:

Less than 100 years ago in most Western countries 12 was age of consent, and in quite a few countries today (not just Muslim ones) it still is.

I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross, yet marrying another man is now all of a sudden normal and not gross in the slightest...

Are you trying to say it is OK for him to do this Abu? Are are you just trying to change the subject?

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Lestat

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #8 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 8:19am

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 8:01am:

What's even stranger is that this guy is a cleric - he holds a position of respect within the community. For some reason he thought that meant he could get away with openly flouting Indonesia law.

You've been told a number of times now that their is no clergy in Islam.....or hasn't it yet sunk into your thick head (just practising my right to freedom of speech remember).

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #9 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 8:50am

So what are you trying to say lestat ?
That the muslim cleric has nothing to do with islam ?
That marrying a child is not allowed under islam ?
That there are no clerics in islam ?
That Indonesia is not a muslim country ?
That the laws in indonesia dont matter ?

Abu - are you saying that everything that happened 100 years ago still should happen ??

Am I getting better at asking questions ?

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #10 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:31am Hmm... I'd imagine that life expectancy in those days was a lot less too Mozz. Not that I condone marriage at such an early age. Good thing some of us have progressed. Also why anyone would seek sex with a child is beyond me.
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39508 Gender:	Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old. Reply #11 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:37am grendel - maybe because they are a pervert ? mentally/emotionally/ethically not right.
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locutius

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #12 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:47am

A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old.

Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25.

Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think.

Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this.

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« Last Edit: Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:52am by locutius »

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mozzaok

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #13 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:49am

Quote:

I'd imagine that life expectancy in those days was a lot less too Mozz.

Yes, and I couldn't imagine having adolescent bodies trying to pop out babies would have done much to improve the statistics either.

Yes, by our standards today, having sex with kids seems totally sick, but Abu is correct that it was accepted at a younger age in the past, in western, as well as eastern cultures, he just doesn't have the nads to condemn it as wrong in this day and age.
Afraid of being seen as not marching to the drum of the "perfect" truth I expect.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Indonesian muslim cleric married 12-year-old.
Reply #14 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:59am

locutius wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:47am:

A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old.

Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25.

Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think.

Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this.

I know what you're saying but in this case I don't see that as applicable especially as the law itself is against it.

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