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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47366 At my desk.	Re: Slavery Reply #15 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 6:50pm Abu it's kind of absurd that you have a go at everyone else for posting 'rubbish' about Islam, while at the same time refusing to answer even the most basic questions on the grounds that telling the truth might help me put together a wiki that reveals the truth about Islam. You can't have it both ways.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Slavery Reply #16 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 7:30pm Quote: War and Peace in the Law of Islam, Majidd Khadduri, p 196-197. Just as I suspected, not a single Islamic text that contains it. Just our friend the peer-reviewed academic Khadduri, whose name I see you're still having trouble spelling
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abu_rashid

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Re: Slavery
Reply #17 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 7:35pm

freediver, I've answered a multitude of your questions. To claim I refuse to answer basic questions is really just absurd. I don't answer what you want, when you want, all the time, that's correct, nor am I obliged to. That doesn't mean I don't answer your questions. If this is in response to the children of slaves question, as I said, just wanna gauge what you'd estimate it to be first.. nothing wrong with that is there? Can't you just do that for me? Since I've answered many more questions from you than you've ever answered from me.

Anyway if you read the slavery article in the common misconceptions thread, you'll see that the impending Caliphate would not re-institute slavery anyway, which is what I've tried to tell you all along. Unless of course people starting imitating the pagan Arabs and carrying large amounts of wealth and women into battle, to show off their courage...

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freediver

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Re: Slavery
Reply #18 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:41pm

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To claim I refuse to answer basic questions is really just absurd.

Yes it is absurd. But you have openly stated that you will refuse to answer my questions because I would use the truth against you in my wiki. So don't blame me for the absurd situation where you respond so frequently, but so rarely answer the question.

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I don't answer what you want, when you want, all the time, that's correct, nor am I obliged to.

Fair enough. But it's the "I'm not playing any more because you put what I say on the wiki" that is the absurd part.

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If this is in response to the children of slaves question, as I said, just wanna gauge what you'd estimate it to be first.. nothing wrong with that is there? Can't you just do that for me?

Sure. I might as well flip a coin Abu. I don't know, but as far as I can tell it could go either way. So stick that in your gauge. Like I said, I am always forthcoming with what I think Islamic law is. Now, must we really play this silly game for such simple questions? This would be over in no time at all if you spent as much time giving a straight answer as you did deflecting.

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Anyway if you read the slavery article in the common misconceptions thread

I've tried reading that thread many times. It is vague waffle that seems to list the criticisms of Islam that you think are most obviously wrong to give yourself the most leeway in giving a vague response that appears to paint Islam far more progressive than it actually is. It is incredibly frustrating trying to use that thread to find out what Islam actually says. It's fine if you want to know a list of things that Islam doesn't say, but it is completely useless otherwise.

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you'll see that the impending Caliphate would not re-institute slavery anyway

I saw that claim. It appears to be based on the standards set by non-Islamic nations. How about we start with what Islam actually says before going into how it can be interpretted more progressively.

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which is what I've tried to tell you all along

This is why it is so incredibly frustrating asking you about Islam. I ask what the Islamic law actually is, and you respond by ignoring what I actually asked and instead saying what it would do under ideal circumstances. I don't want the lollipop version of Islam with the bad bits censored for the eyes of Dhimmis. I don't mind if you want to give your opinion on how it might work in a future situation, but just give the general rule first rather than pretending the ideal situation represents the extent of Islamic law. This BS you carry on with is transparent deception. It is a lie by omission, where you omit the answer to the actual question and substitute an answer for the ideal question that avoids the true nature of Islam. We are not naive children and this crap won't work on us.

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Unless of course people starting imitating the pagan Arabs and carrying large amounts of wealth and women into battle, to show off their courage...

So that is the only situation where Islam would allow taking of slaves? You aren't making much sense here Abu. How about you just answer the question rather than trying to second guess what we 'really' want to know. Honestly, it would save everyone a lot of wasted time.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Slavery
Reply #19 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:55pm

I'm sick to death of your rubbish accusations of lying by omission etc.

I've told you and others several times, in no uncertain terms, that only women and wealth brought into the battlefield (as was the custom of the pagan arabs) can be enslaved. That's the general rule. As the article in the common misconceptions thread states, since people don't do that anymore, then there's no circumstance in which it would occur.

That article is extremely detailed, gives very clear descriptions about the rulings that would be adopted by a future Caliphate, and gives Islamic evidences for them all. If you don't like what it says, I couldn't give a stuff, go write your wiki from your own fantasies, as you'll do anyway.

In short, the ruling is far superior to anything I'm going to tell you. I'm just going to summarise it for you. Since I'm now aware of your love of twisting and misconstruing things to make your wiki as sensationalist as you can, I'm not going to bother accidentally introducing some minor error into my interpretation of those rulings, that you can use to twist. Use the words of the article, they are the ruling by which Muslims will conduct themselves in this issue, in a future Caliphate, not my summary.

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freediver

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Re: Slavery
Reply #20 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 9:14pm

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I'm sick to death of your rubbish accusations of lying by omission etc.

Well then, what is the status of the child of a slave? Or did I not play the game well enough to deserve an answer? Maybe if we debate whether you should answer it for a few more pages you will let it slip.

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I've told you and others several times, in no uncertain terms, that only women and wealth brought into the battlefield (as was the custom of the pagan arabs) can be enslaved.

News to me. I was under the impression that men could be enslaved to. Don't give us this 'told you countless times' BS. You go to great lengths to respond to posts without actually answering the simple questions. Hopefully now you see why I am so persitent with trying to uncover the truth.

Also, why do you say that wealth can be enslaved? What does that mean?

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That article is extremely detailed, gives very clear descriptions about the rulings that would be adopted by a future Caliphate

Wouldn't it depend on the situation? It allowed it in past situations. The Americans bring women into battle. Doesn't that mean that the future rules bit is nothing more than crystal ball gazing? I can't imagine what the world might end up like if another Caliphate was set loose on it. Don't pretend that you can.

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I couldn't give a stuff, go write your wiki from your own fantasies, as you'll do anyway

I'd rather base it on the simple truth and straight answers, but whatever flaots your boat.

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In short, the ruling is far superior to anything I'm going to tell you.

So a straight answer is out of the wuestion I suppose?

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Since I'm now aware of your love of twisting and misconstruing things to make your wiki as sensationalist as you can, I'm not going to bother

Oh, so now you are going to start avoiding the questions, unlike previously....

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they are the ruling by which Muslims will conduct themselves in this issue, in a future Caliphate, not my summary

I would rather base it on the truth about Islamic law, not crystal ball gazing under undisclosed assumptions.

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Calanen

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Re: Slavery
Reply #21 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 9:21pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 9^th, 2009 at 7:30pm:

Quote:

War and Peace in the Law of Islam, Majidd Khadduri, p 196-197.

Just as I suspected, not a single Islamic text that contains it. Just our friend the peer-reviewed academic Khadduri, whose name I see you're still having trouble spelling Grin

I think you've slipped some hashish in your hubble bubble pipe. One of the three people I quoted from, was Abu Yusuf. Just to help you along there habibi:

Abu Yusuf

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Abu Yusuf Muslim Jurist
Islamic Golden Age
Full name Imam Abu Yusuf
Death 798
School/tradition Sunni Hanafi
Main interests Islamic Jurisprudence
Notable ideas Evolution of Islamic Jurisprudence
Influenced by[show]
Abu Hanifa
Yaqub ibn Ibrahim al-Ansari, better known as Abu Yusuf (Arabic: أبو يوسف‎) (d.798) was a student of legist Abu Hanifah (d.767) who helped spread the influence of the Hanafi school of Islamic law through his writings and the government positions he held.

Beliefs

Monotheism
Prophethood & Messengership
Holy Books • Angels
Judgement Day • Predestination • Caliphate of Abu Bakr

Pillars

Declaration of Faith • Prayer
Charity • Fasting • Pilgrimage

Rightly Guided Caliphs

Abu Bakr • Umar ibn al-Khattab
Uthman ibn Affan • Ali ibn Abi Talib

Schools of Law (Shariah)

Hanafi • Shafi`i • Maliki • Hanbali

Schools of Theology

Maturidi • Ash'ari • Athari • Mu'tazili • Zahiri

Modern Movements

Al-Ikhwan Al-Muslimoon • Deobandi • Barelwi • Salafi/Wahhabi • Jamaat-e-Islami

Hadith Collections

Sahih Bukhari • Sahih Muslim
Al-Sunan al-Sughra
Sunan Abu Dawood
Sunan al-Tirmidhi
Sunan ibn Maja • Al-Muwatta
Sunan al-Darami

This box: view • talk • edit

He was appointed Qadi (judge) in Baghdad, Iraq, and later chief justice (qadi al-qudat) under Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid (r.786-809) with authority to appoint judges in the empire. Some of his opinions differ from those of Abu Hanifah, probably on the basis of traditions not available to the earlier scholar.

[edit] Works
His most famous work is Kitab al-Kharaj[1]

Kitab al-Kharaj is a treatise on taxation and fiscal problems of the state prepared for the caliph. [1]

Usul al-fiqh - the earliest known work of principles of Islamic jurisprudence. A portion of his works were devoted to international law.[1]

Kitab al-Athar, a collection of traditions (ahadith) he narrated
Kitab Ikhtilaf Abi Hanifa wa Ibn Abi Layla, one of the early works on comparative Fiqh

Kitab al-Radd ‘Ala Siyar al-Awza’i, a refutation of the famous Syrian jurist and tradition, al-Awza’i on the law of war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Yusuf

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Calanen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2241	Re: Slavery Reply #22 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 9:30pm Speaking of which, you can read Majid Khadduri for free if you like, online. Might learn a lot Freedriver. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UHWd6gLZsFIC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=coloured+... It has the answers to all your questions, without all the 'spin' from Lord Alja Haw Haw.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Slavery
Reply #23 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 9:30pm

It's not about avoiding or not answering. I am not an Islamic scholar. I have merely conveyed to you the rulings of Islamic scholars, as I understand them. My understanding is not authoritative, the ruling of the scholar is. Since it's become blatantly obvious your intention is to twist and play with my phrases, to sensationalise your wiki, I'm not going to allow myself to be placed in that situation. Therefore I'm simply referring you to the same source from which I've previously brought the rulings. I don't see your problem. You're still getting what you want, in fact you're getting it from the original source now, no middle man... unless what you really want is the middle man? my paraphrasing of the rulings?? so you know you've got some words to play on, rather than the carefully worded rulings of a qualified Islamic scholar.

At the end of the day, I cannot tell you anything that's not written by people like Sheikh Taqi-ud-deen in the common misconceptions thread, about slavery. So asking me to is just pointless. So I've given you a lengthy and detailed set of rulings, go and use them as you please. Don't ask me to provide more detail, as I simply don't have it.

The Caliphate will implement the rulings of people like Sheikh Taqi-ud-deen, not the summaries people like me. Therefore his rulings are far more relevant to you than my mere summary of them is.

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Also, why do you say that wealth can be enslaved? What does that mean?

Come on you're just being ridiculous now. Spoils of war, booty... you know precisely what it's talking about.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Slavery
Reply #24 - Feb 9^th, 2009 at 9:35pm

I'm quite aware who Abu Yusef al-Qadi is, he's one of the greatest Islamic scholars, this is true, but there's still no Islamic text (Qur'an or hadith) that refers to this concept of special clothing. An opinion of a scholar, even the greatest, means nothing without Qur'an or hadith to back it up. This is one of the greatest and well known safeguards in the Islamic scholarship system. It is known as Daleel (an evidence that can be presented to God on the day of judgement, to say why you did something), no daleel, no ruling, sorry. The name Abu Yusef, is not a daleel, and no Muslim can present his name on the day of judgement to justify why he did something.

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Calanen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2241	Re: Slavery Reply #25 - Feb 10^th, 2009 at 2:22am Quote: Muslims aren't going to help you understand Islam - the last thing we want is kafirs knowing the truth." Which is why I'm writing my book. Because everyone has to know.
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Lestat

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Re: Slavery
Reply #26 - Feb 10^th, 2009 at 8:19am

Calanen wrote on Feb 10^th, 2009 at 2:22am:

Quote:

Muslims aren't going to help you understand Islam - the last thing we want is kafirs knowing the truth."

Which is why I'm writing my book. Because everyone has to know.

I suspect that after writing your book, the only thing 'everyone will know' is how much of a tosser you are, and how ignorant (not to mention...a poor lawyer).

Cheesy

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Calanen

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Re: Slavery
Reply #27 - Feb 10^th, 2009 at 10:15am

Lestat wrote on Feb 10^th, 2009 at 8:19am:

Calanen wrote on Feb 10^th, 2009 at 2:22am:

Quote:

Muslims aren't going to help you understand Islam - the last thing we want is kafirs knowing the truth."

Which is why I'm writing my book. Because everyone has to know.

I suspect that after writing your book, the only thing 'everyone will know' is how much of a tosser you are, and how ignorant (not to mention...a poor lawyer).

Cheesy

As I've said before, I hang off your every word to validate my existence and professional wellbeing. So, I guess this year's income will take a dive now you've said something on a forum board, with what, 20 regular members?

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47366 At my desk.	Re: Slavery Reply #28 - Feb 10^th, 2009 at 12:17pm Did my response get deleted?
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Slavery Reply #29 - Feb 10^th, 2009 at 8:54pm Did it mention something derogatory about a religion, religious book or religious figure? If so, then yes. You know the rules fd, please stick to them, if your memory is failing you, then please re-read the forum guidelines.
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