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Dhimmitude (Read 5330 times)
freediver
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Dhimmitude
Oct 24th, 2008 at 10:18pm
 
I'm trying to get my head around how Islam views the different people of the world, so please tell me if this is right:

All people are divided into three groups: Muslims, Dhimmis (consisting of Jews and Christians) and everyone else. These groups reflect how Islam commands its followers to treat others. Fellow Muslims get the best treatment - basically what most people would consider fair. Dhimmis are tolerated. They have to pay a special tax, unless they serve in the military. Everyone else gets worse treatment.

Are only Jews and Christians considered Dhimmis? Who decides who is a valid Dhimmi?

Other than the tax and military service issue, is anything else specifically required of them? Is it true that they are required to live in humility, or humiliation?

How does the treatment of Dhimmis differ from the treatment of everyone else (non-Muslims)? Are they lumped together in being considered 'unreliable witnesses' in court?
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Lestat
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #1 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 12:08am
 
I've got an idea...how bout you go and get your 'info' from jihad watch and other anti-islamic sites.

We all know thats what you think anyway, and whenever anyone actually waste's their time, you start with your loaded questions and classic 'freediver' crap.

Your rather transparent FD...and the charade is over, I suspect that none of the resident muslim posters here will ever respond to your loaded questions...

How bout you stop wasting our time and do your own research you lazy .....!
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« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2008 at 12:15am by Lestat »  
 
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #2 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 8:41am
 
Again we are only getting an arrogant noninformative aggressive abusive response from the muslim corner to a question.


Here is what I found, that lestat would not ooffer :-



Rules of dhimmitude
The vanquished non-Muslims peoples are granted security for their life and possessions, as well as a relative self-autonomous administration and limited religious rights according to the modalities of the conquest. These rights are subject to two conditions: the payment of a poll tax (the jizya) and submission to the provisions of Islamic law.
The concept of toleration is linked to a number of discriminatory obligations in the economic, religious and social fields, imposed by the shari'a on the dhimmis. The transgression by the dhimmis of some of these obligations, abolished their protection, and threaten them with death or slavery. Dhimmis suffered many legal disabilities intended to reduce them to a condition of humiliation, segregation and discrimination. These rules, established from the eight to nine centuries by the founders of the four schools of Islamic law, set the pattern of the Muslim's community's social behavior toward dhimmis.

Jews and Christians are referred to as the People of the Book, they share the same legal status, while other religious group - like the Zoroastrians for instance - were more despised and treated harsher.

Dhimmitude covers more than a millennium of Christian and Jewish history, as well as of other groups. It is a comprehensive civilization encompassing customs, legislation, social behavior. Numerous laws were enacted over the centuries by the Muslim authorities, to implement its principles. It was abolished during the 19th -20th centuries under European pressure and colonization of Arab countries.

Today the resurgence of traditional Islam revitalizes the spirit of jihad against the dar al-harb and of dhimmitude for the non-Muslim minorities.

http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_history_dhimmitude.html



i think I can see why lestat refused to answer.

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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #3 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 8:52am
 
Lestat I have a genuine interest in Islamic Law. It would be a shame if I had to go to those sites to get my information as I realise how hard it can be to find out the true nature of a doctrine from those who don't share it.

Anyway, I think it is really strange that Muslims don't want to explain their religion to other people. I can't think of any other religion where genuine interest is met with such hostility and rejection. Most truly religious people would jump at the opportunity to share their faith. I could understand if you tried to qualify the negative parts with other bits that clarify them, but to openly reject inquiry this way makes me think you have something to hide.
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #4 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 9:11am
 



"It is forbidden to the tolerated peoples living on Muslim territory to clothe themselves in the same manner as the chiefs, the scholars, and the nobles. They should not be allowed to clothe themselves in costly fabrics which have been cut in the modes which are forbidden to them, in order that they may not offend the sensibilities of poor Muslims and in order that their faith in their religion should not be shaken by this. [Poor Muslims may regret their faith when they see how well-dressed the Christians and Jews are.]

"They should not be permitted to employ mounts like the Muslims. They must use neither saddles, nor iron-stirrups, in order to be distinguished from the true believers. They must under no circumstance ride horses because of the noble character of this animal. The Most-High has said [Qu'ran 8:62]: 'And through powerful squadrons [of horses] through which you will strike terror into your own and God's enemies.' [A verse of the Qu'ran makes a good support for a law. Verses may even be torn out of their context.]

"They should not be permitted to take Muslims into their service because God has glorified the people of Islam. He has given them His aid and has given them a guarantee by these words [Qu'ran 3:140]: 'Surely God will never give preeminence to unbelievers over the true believers.' Now this is just what is happening today, for their servants are Muslims taken from among men of a mature age or from those who are still young. This is one of the greatest scandals to which the guardians of authority must put an end. It is wrong to greet them even with a simple 'how-do-you-do'; to serve them, even for wages, at the baths or in what relates to their riding animals; and it is forbidden to accept anything from their hand, for that would be an act of debasement by the faithful. They are forbidden while going through the streets to ape the manners of the Muslims, and still less those of the cities of the religion. They shall only walk single-file, and in narrow lanes they must withdraw even more into the most cramped part of the road.

"One may read that which follows in Bukhari and Muslim [religious authorities of the ninth century]: 'Jews and Christians shall never begin a greeting; if you encounter one of them on the road, push him into the narrowest and tightest spot.' The absence of every mark of consideration toward them is obligatory for us; we ought never to give them the place of honor in an assembly when a Muslim is present. This is in order to humble them and to honor the true believers. They should under no circumstances acquire Muslim slaves, white or black. Therefore they should get rid of the slaves which they now have for the), have no right to own them. If one of their slaves who was formerly an infidel, becomes a Muslim, he shall be removed from them, and his master, willingly or unwillingly, shall be compelled to sell him and to accept the price for him.

"It is no longer permitted them to put themselves, with respect to their houses, on an equal footing with the dwellings of their Muslim neighbors, and still less to build their buildings higher. If they are of the same height, or higher, it is incumbent upon us to pull them down to a size a little less than the houses of the true believers. This conforms to the word of the Prophet: 'Islam rules, and nothing shall raise itself above it.' This is also in order to hinder them from knowing where our weak spots are and in order to make a distinction between their dwellings and ours.

"They are forbidden to build new churches, chapels, or monasteries in any Muslim land. We should destroy everything that is of new construction in every place, such as Cairo, for instance, founded under the Muslim religion, for it is said in a tradition of Umar: 'No church shall be built in Islam.' They shall no longer be permitted to repair the parts of these [post-Islamic] buildings which are in ruins. However, the old buildings [of pre-Islamic times] which are found in a land whose population had embraced Islam need not be destroyed. They shall not, however, be enlarged by means of repairs or otherwise. In case the tolerated peoples [Jews, Christians, etc.] act contrary to these provisions we will be obliged to destroy everything that has been added to the original size of the building. [Only pre-Islamic churches and synagogues may be repaired; new ones must be torn down.]

"Entrance into Muslim territory by infidels of foreign lands under the pact guaranteeing protection to the tolerated peoples is permitted only for the time necessary to settle their business affairs. If they exceed this period, their safe-conduct having expired, they will be put to death or be subject to the payment of the head-tax.[Jews and Christians of foreign lands must pay a special head-tax if they wish to remain permanently in Muslim lands.] As to those with whom the ruler may have signed treaties, and with whom he, for whatever motive, may have granted a temporary truce, they form only the smallest fraction. But they, too, must not pass the fixed limit of more than four months [without paying the tax], particularly if this occurs at a time when Islam is prosperous and flourishing. The Most-High has said [Qu'ran 2: 2341: 'They should wait four months,' and he has again said [47:37]: 'Do not show any cowardice, and do not at all invite the unbelievers to a peace when you have the upper-hand and may God be with you.'

tbc
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #5 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 9:12am
 
"Entrance into Muslim territory by infidels of foreign lands under the pact guaranteeing protection to the tolerated peoples is permitted only for the time necessary to settle their business affairs. If they exceed this period, their safe-conduct having expired, they will be put to death or be subject to the payment of the head-tax.[Jews and Christians of foreign lands must pay a special head-tax if they wish to remain permanently in Muslim lands.] As to those with whom the ruler may have signed treaties, and with whom he, for whatever motive, may have granted a temporary truce, they form only the smallest fraction. But they, too, must not pass the fixed limit of more than four months [without paying the tax], particularly if this occurs at a time when Islam is prosperous and flourishing. The Most-High has said [Qu'ran 2: 2341: 'They should wait four months,' and he has again said [47:37]: 'Do not show any cowardice, and do not at all invite the unbelievers to a peace when you have the upper-hand and may God be with you.'

"Their men and women are ordered to wear garments different from those of the Muslims in order to be distinguished from them. They are forbidden to exhibit anything which might scandalize us, as, for instance, their fermented liquors, and if they do not conceal these from us, we are obliged to pour them into the street."

This which precedes is only a part of that which has been written on this subject, and if we should wish to mention it all here it would take too long. But this brief recital will be sufficient for those men whose intelligence God has enlightened, to whom he has given the breath of life, and whose inner thoughts he has sanctified. Now let us beg the Sovereign Master of the world to extend His justice over humanity universally, in order that they may direct all their efforts toward raising with firmness the banner of the religion.

In a tradition of the sincere and faithful [Calif Abu Bekr, 632-634] it is likewise said: "The abolition of a sacrilegious innovation is preferable to the permanent operation of the law." In another tradition it is also said: "One hour of justice is worth more than sixty years of ritual." The verses of the Qu'ran and the traditions are very numerous on this subject, and they are known by all the faithful. God has cursed the former nations because they have not condemned scandalous things; and He has said [Qu'ran 5:82]: "They [the children of Israel] seek not at all to turn one another from the bad actions which they have committed. 0 how detestable were their actions. But He has punished these men because of their obstinate conduct." The Most-High has also said [Qu'ran 9: 1 131: "Those who bid what is right and forbid what is wrong, who observe the divine precepts, will be rewarded. Announce these glad tidings to the Muslims."

May the Most High God admit us to the number of this company and may He lead us in the paths of His favor. Certainly God is powerful in everything; He is full of mercy to His servants; He sees all.

Written by the humble Hasan al Kafrawi, the Shafiite. [1772 CE]

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1772-jewsinislam.html
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #6 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 9:30am
 

Quote:
Lestat I have a genuine interest in Islamic Law. It would be a shame if I had to go to those sites to get my information as I realise how hard it can be to find out the true nature of a doctrine from those who don't share it.


freediver your sincerity is a mirage.

You ask questions, pick and choose what you think is useful from it, fill in the gaps with propaganda, and claim Muslims deceive you anyway and then write what you want.

Cut out the middle man, and just write what you want, why bother even asking us when you know you're not going to accept it anyway.
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #7 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 9:35am
 
fd...  Jews and Christians are referred to as PEOPLE OF THE BOOK...  not Dhimmi...  (well not these days) even though they could well be Dhimmi, ie: have to pay the tax.
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #8 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 9:41am
 

What a deflection.

Just answer the question
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #9 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 10:12am
 

sprint,

There's no deflection there, there's just an outright refusal to answer. You and freediver both don't want to hear the answers, so don't ask the questions.

Gaybriel has already pointed out this fact, that you couldn't care less what the answer is, because always your final reasoning, even if you get an answer that's agreeable to you, is "Well Muslims can lie to kaffirs anyway, so I don't believe you".

Nobody would answer your questions with such an attitude.

So quit the crap about deflections, you're just simply not getting my time of day.
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #10 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 10:17am
 

ok, so you refuse to answer ??

Well ask any question about christianity and I will answer
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #11 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 10:28am
 
How is it a mirage Abu? That doesn't even make sense. Are you saying I'm not really interested in this, I'm just pretending to be? What could my motivation possibly be if I'm not really interested?

You and freediver both don't want to hear the answers, so don't ask the questions.

I wouldn't ask if I didn't want to hear the answer Abu.
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #12 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 4:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 25th, 2008 at 10:28am:
How is it a mirage Abu? That doesn't even make sense. Are you saying I'm not really interested in this, I'm just pretending to be? What could my motivation possibly be if I'm not really interested?

You and freediver both don't want to hear the answers, so don't ask the questions.

I wouldn't ask if I didn't want to hear the answer Abu.


Go away freediver...your boring us with your loaded questions, and as I said, your charade has been exposed. I will treat you with the same disdain and respect as you have treated me.

No p*** off you lazy ---- and go do your own research! The only one your fooling is yourself, we know exactly what your motives are.

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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #13 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 4:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 25th, 2008 at 8:52am:
Lestat I have a genuine interest in Islamic Law. It would be a shame if I had to go to those sites to get my information as I realise how hard it can be to find out the true nature of a doctrine from those who don't share it.

Anyway, I think it is really strange that Muslims don't want to explain their religion to other people. I can't think of any other religion where genuine interest is met with such hostility and rejection. Most truly religious people would jump at the opportunity to share their faith. I could understand if you tried to qualify the negative parts with other bits that clarify them, but to openly reject inquiry this way makes me think you have something to hide.


It doesn't matter what I or anyone says, you will think I have something to hide regardless. This has already been quite evident with Abu where he continously answers your loaded questions, and you treat him with suspicion...as if he's hiding something from you.

So give it up...please, like I said, your fooling no one. The charade is over and I for one will never respond to any questions you ask and I suggest Abu does likewise.

Either way, anyone with half a brain will treat your 'wiki entry' with the respect it deserves, and it will be quite evident that it is written by a bigot, so I am confident that it will not be taken to seriously out their (except for redneck spastics like those that post here).

Besides... sprint has already answered your questions. We both know that these are the answers you are truly searching for. Don't let the truth get in the way of your fantasies...after all, you never have before...why start now?
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Re: Dhimmitude
Reply #14 - Oct 25th, 2008 at 5:00pm
 
Quote:
The charade is over and I for one will never respond to any questions you ask

May I say, on behalf of all members, thank goodness.
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