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concubines (Read 20831 times)
freediver
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concubines
Oct 21st, 2008 at 1:24pm
 
Under what situations does/did Islam permit concubines? Is a concubine regarded as additional or separate to a wife?
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abu_rashid
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Re: concubines
Reply #1 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 3:36pm
 

Today there are no situations in which it's permitted.

Yes it is considered seperate to a wife.

Also there is difference of opinion on whether it's actually permitted, as the term used to describe it is not literal. It says "what your right hand possesses".

Also just to keep this in perspective, Muhammad (pbuh) said about slavery:

"one of the three who would have a double reward is a master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way and frees her and then marries her."

Also it is a requirement that a servant be given the ability to earn their freedom:

"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them"

Neither the Bible, nor any other system before Islam did anything like this for the emancipation of those in servitude. It is quite clear when reading the Islamic texts, that the trend is towards abolishing slavery. It was something that existed all throughout the world at the time, and abolishing it completely/immediately would've been quite difficult, but Islam was at the forefront of doing it for most of it's history.

I don't think there's a single passage of the Bible that prohibits or even limits or discourages slavery. So in this case, it's quite obvious that Islam is strides ahead, doctrinally, and when it is re-established, hopefully in practice also.
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Re: concubines
Reply #2 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 3:44pm
 
You appear to be implying that Islam is not timeless.

Why is it not permitted today? What were the situations where it was permitted? You appear to be implying that Muslim men can have sex with all their female slaves.
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Re: concubines
Reply #3 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 4:11pm
 

"We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

1 Timothy 1:9-11



I seem to recall in the OT slaves were offered their freedom after 7 years. If they voluntarily wanted to stay, they had an earlobe pierced.

Remembering, the OT is for Jews.
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Re: concubines
Reply #4 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 4:23pm
 
Quote:
You appear to be implying that Islam is not timeless.


Not at all. Shari'ah actually literally means 'constantly replenishing source [of water]', and is suitable and adaptable to all time.

Quote:
Why is it not permitted today?


As I already noted it's a moot point.

Quote:
What were the situations where it was permitted?


This has already been answered.

Quote:
You appear to be implying that Muslim men can have sex with all their female slaves.


Yes, as was the case with the Biblical prophets also, like Abrahm (pbuh) with Hajar (pbuh) and others. It was just part of the lifestyle in those times, like it or not.

sprinnt,

Quote:
I seem to recall in the OT slaves were offered their freedom after 7 years. If they voluntarily wanted to stay, they had an earlobe pierced


Do you have the verse? Also that NT quote doesn't actually say it's forbidden, it just speaks unkindly about those who actually sell slaves. There's many other verses where Jesus (pbuh) supposedly came across people owning slaves and never said anything at all to them, nor rebuked them, nor told them it was forbidden to do so...
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Re: concubines
Reply #5 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 4:27pm
 
Quote:
As I already noted it's a moot point.


I'd still like to know why it isn't permitted today. Are you jsut referring to "man's law" rather than Islamic law?

Quote:
This has already been answered.


You said there was a difference of opinion, that's all. Was it basically that all female slaves were fair game? Were there any other situations where it was permitted?

What if a female slave is already married? Is she still fair game?

Also, what status do the children of concubines and slaves have?
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« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2008 at 4:33pm by freediver »  

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Re: concubines
Reply #6 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 5:34pm
 

"If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free.
And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed.  Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you.  Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.
But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.

Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because his service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do."

Deuteronomy 15:12-18


Perhaps you would like to reconsider your earlier comment ?
Perhaps ALSO post quotes to support your claim ?
Perhaps keep from diverting topics.
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Re: concubines
Reply #7 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 6:30pm
 
Perhaps you would like to reconsider your earlier comment ?
Perhaps ALSO post quotes to support your claim ?
Perhaps keep from diverting topics.


He can't do both sprint. Perhaps you should start another thread somewhere to refute his claims, and post a link here.
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Re: concubines
Reply #8 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:01pm
 

sprint,

That's only for fellow Hebrews who are slaves, not for the goyim.

Besides it still permits slavery, just puts a limit on it (and only for fellow Hebrews anyway).
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Re: concubines
Reply #9 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 9:38am
 
Abu we have been discussing Islamic law on things like marriage, polygamy, the punishment for fornication etc for a long time now. The supposed blanket ban on sex outside of marriage came up a number of times. For example, in discussing homosexuality you used it to point out that the punishment for homosexuality is no different to the punishment for fornication. In all this time the issue of concubines never came up. In the women in Islam thread, where I first asked you about sex slaves, you deflected a number of times until I had the wording of the question in a form you approved of. When I did, you refused to answer. When I started a new thread on concubines, you continued to aboid the question.

Do you think it is reasonable for me to conclude that you have been deliberately misleading me? Do you think it is reasonable for me to expect other Muslims to 'lie by omission' in order to hide the truth about their religion? Why are you so keen to hide the truth? Is there anything in Islamic doctrine that is guiding you on the matter?

In the process of becoming a Muslim, when are people told about concubines? Does it only come up when there is a war on?

May Muslims sell their concubines?

I hope you don't blame me for asking question repeatedly and in a number of different forms, as I have found that I tend to miss interesting facts unless I ask each specific question in the most direct manner possible.
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Re: concubines
Reply #10 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 10:15am
 
yes, I have struck the "ask-the-question-in-the-correct-format/syntex-before-I-will-even-remotely-consi
der-any-answer-you-infidel-scum" attitude too.

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Re: concubines
Reply #11 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 10:44am
 
Have you been told that your question has already been answered a number of times, then later discovered you were still completely in the dark?

Quote:
Also there is difference of opinion on whether it's actually permitted, as the term used to describe it is not literal. It says "what your right hand possesses".


Do Hadiths or Fatwas clarify the ambiguity?

Are there many Muslims who interpret this even more broadly?

What does it actually say - ie can you give the rest of the sentence?
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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2008 at 2:08pm by freediver »  

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Re: concubines
Reply #12 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 4:12pm
 
Btw sprint, regarding the 6 year ceiling on slaves, I found a loophole, if you slave out your own daughter to a man, and he doesn't fail to fulfil her 'marital rights', or clothe and feed her, or give her to his son, then he can keep her indefinitely... The 6 year limit is waivered. Handy to know eh?

Exodus 21:7-11 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
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« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2008 at 4:19pm by abu_rashid »  
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Re: concubines
Reply #13 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 4:18pm
 

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Dont you get it ?????????????
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Re: concubines
Reply #14 - Oct 24th, 2008 at 4:23pm
 

Yeh, but Jesus (pbuh) is the one who told them to do that right?

So Jews should still be practising this?

Or do you finally accept your own book has abrogated sections also?

Don't you think it was a bit strange of Jesus (pbuh) to allow people to slave out their own daughters for the 'use' of other men though? Doesn't sound in character at all for him... Or was it Dad only who made that rule? Or maybe the spirit?
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