Australian Politics Forum - Incest in Christianity?

abu_rashid

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Incest in Christianity?
Oct 15^th, 2008 at 9:55pm

This is a question I asked of sprint in another thread, where he indicated that the ten commandments were Jewish and had no bearing on Christianity.

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Don't you accept the laws of the OT, unless they're specifically abrogated/superseded in the NT? If not, then there's a lot of stuff that must be permitted in Christianity, like incest for instance... perhaps that's why it's becoming more popular and acceptable in Christian countries nowadays?

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #1 - Oct 15^th, 2008 at 10:05pm

Gidday Abu,
Good of you to keep this question seperate.

these are only my answers. Other christians may have variations on my thoughts.

Yes, I don't accept the 10 commandments. The way I read/understand it, christians are not beholden to the 10 commandments. That is for jews.

No, incest is not the done thing in christianity, nor is it legal in any democracy I am aware of.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #2 - Oct 15^th, 2008 at 11:14pm

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these are only my answers. Other christians may have variations on my thoughts

Only variations on your thoughts? Not a completely opposite view? If some Christians did have the opposite view, what criteria could be used to say which is more of a Christian view?

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Yes, I don't accept the 10 commandments. The way I read/understand it, christians are not beholden to the 10 commandments. That is for jews.

My question is more generally about the OT. The OT has many more laws than just the 10 commandments. It has a complex system of law, so if you don't believe it to be valid, then I'm just curious what is your criteria for right and wrong, as the NT is clearly not a complete book when it comes to detailing what is and isn't right. Throughout most of history, I think Christians have generally used the OT as the default source of right and wrong, augmented by the NT for any superceded or abrogated laws. However, the 'evangelicals' in modern times have tended to do away with this, are you an 'evangelical' sprint?

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No, incest is not the done thing in christianity

Who says it's not if you don't accept the OT? On what basis do you say it's not permitted? What if another Christian says the NT doesn't say anything about it, so it's ok?

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nor is it legal in any democracy I am aware of.

Not yet, but then again neither was homosexuality legal a few decades ago, and neither was adultery a few decades before that...

This is an interesting article though. There is a political party calling for it, and surprisingly enough they've been doing preference deals with the pro-Christian Family First party...

Candidate backs legal 'victimless' incest

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #3 - Oct 15^th, 2008 at 11:55pm

my thoughts are the OT is valid.
It stands by itself. Jews are meant to follow the OT.

The NT is valid in itself. Christians are meant to follow the NT.

The OT has references forward in time to the NT.
The NT has references backward into the OT.

Me, an evangelical ? I have never thought of that, I don't think so.

I would not like it if my mum had seduced me, so I won't do it to my daughter (if I had any).
"Do unto others as you would be done unto yourself", is the basis I use.

Thanks for that link, I had not heard of that one before !!

"party's policy to decriminalise victimless crimes such as euthanasia and incest between adults."

I think consenting adults should not commit incest. The offspring are by definition inbred. It just sounds yucky.
Still, I am in favour of people discussing such matters.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #4 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 6:29am

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I would not like it if my mum had seduced me, so I won't do it to my daughter (if I had any).

Ok, that's fine, perhaps you have a good moral compass and know it's wrong, but others do not, and it's beginning to happen more and more in Western/Christian countries, that's why politicians are talking about legislation. So how can a good moral Christian know what his/her religion says about this issue? Where can they look to for guidance regarding it?

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I think consenting adults should not commit incest.

Ok, but do you recognise that some people in this society think it's fine? What can you respond to them with? The NT doesn't specifically mention it, so therefore you've got nothing with which to morally guide them...

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The offspring are by definition inbred

An increasing number of people are choosing not to have children anyway... so that's not really relevant. Besides they can have genetic testing done to see if there's going to be any problems, no?

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It just sounds yucky

Well obviously to some people it doesn't...

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Still, I am in favour of people discussing such matters.

Discussing? You think it should be on the table?

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Grendel

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #5 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 7:35am

What a load of crap Aboo...

Incest is not more accepted in "Christian" countries.
You got stats for that wild claim?
Or anything to back it up?

You realise that some unions are forbidden in such countries.
I don't need to go over the medical reasons etc that have informed public and legal opinion on this do I? Remember also that in Christianity the teaching is to render unto caesar that which is caesars... secularism. Also I don't recall that every aspect of life is specifically covered in the Bible or Christs teachings... in fact it would be next to impossible for that to have occurred.

I note the uproar re the latest well known case from Germany.
(In Christian countries).

Your religious bias seems to be showing again.

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« Last Edit: Oct 16^th, 2008 at 10:50am by Grendel »

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39506 Gender:	Re: Incest in Christianity? Reply #6 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 8:10am grendal - abu has every right to ask ANY question here he wants. he is asking entirely valid questions and unfortunately I have to add, showing more good manners than I often do. I have a few jobs, but will answer your questions soon Abu
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Incest in Christianity? Reply #7 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 8:22am sprint... get a grip guy... never said he couldn't ask any question. but that doesn't mean it's based in reality. and since this is a forum for debate etc... anyone including me has the right to point that out.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #8 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 10:27am

Abu - good point.
There are not a big list of laws in the NT, as in the OT.
So how does one ask whether something is permitted or not ?

I'ld try the "Do unto others as you would be done unto yourself" first.
That pretty much covers all occassions.
Or just ask God. The fact I may be asking shows there is a question mark over some action.

yes, some people in society would think incest is ok.
It becomes a legal matter, for the police.
This society is secular. Not all here are christians or of any belief.
The laws governing the Aussie society are secular ones.
Christianity was not intended to govern politically or legally.
it is more a personal thing. Hence, no big lists of laws.

I am in favour of a society that has freedom of speech. Though i may not be happy about what they talk about, I am happier that they talk about it.

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tallowood

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #9 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 10:41am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 16^th, 2008 at 10:27am:

...
I'ld try the "Do unto others as you would be done unto yourself" first.
That pretty much covers all occassions.
...

I really wouldn't like a sadomasochist do unto me what he/she would do unto him/herself.

As for incest I think there are "scientific" more then religious reasons why it should be avoided.

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Reality is a figment of imagination

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abu_rashid

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #10 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 12:48pm

Grendel,

Quote:

Incest is not more accepted in "Christian" countries.

And neither is that the premise of my initial post.

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You got stats for that wild claim?
Or anything to back it up?

No need to provide stats if it wasn't what was claimed.

Let me re-iterate the original premise for your benefit.

sprint (and i assume some other christians) do(es) not consider the OT and it's ordinances as binding. Since the NT does not address the issue of things like incest, does this mean it's up to individuals, parties, governments etc. to form their own opinion about such issues? If you consider yourself a believing Christiian, then please feel free to respond on the basis of your beliefs, if you're not, then the question isn't even directed at you, thank you for coming.

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Remember also that in Christianity the teaching is to render unto caesar that which is caesars... secularism.

So by this I assume you mean that if the secular government happened to legislate for the legalisation of incest then you'd have no problem with iti? As this the domain of Caesar not of Jesus (pbuh)??

So if the LDP for instance were to take power in Tasmania, you'd see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to implement their policy regarding incest?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #11 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 12:53pm

Quote:

I really wouldn't like a sadomasochist do unto me what he/she would do unto him/herself.

Good point, not everyones ideas of what's acceptable to do and have done to them, is the same.

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As for incest I think there are "scientific" more then religious reasons why it should be avoided.

So your only objection to it is scientific? If the 'couples' were to undergo genetic tests first to make sure they weren't susceptible to producing at-risk offspring, or if they were to undergo voluntary sterilisation, then you'd be fine with it? Since the 'scientific' reason would therefore have been eliminated.

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tallowood

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #12 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 1:23pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 16^th, 2008 at 12:53pm:

Quote:

I really wouldn't like a sadomasochist do unto me what he/she would do unto him/herself.

...
Quote:

As for incest I think there are "scientific" more then religious reasons why it should be avoided.

So your only objection to it is scientific? If the 'couples' were to undergo genetic tests first to make sure they weren't susceptible to producing at-risk offspring, or if they were to undergo voluntary sterilisation, then you'd be fine with it? Since the 'scientific' reason would therefore have been eliminated.

At this stage yes. Years ago that was the case in many nations. More so it was a prerequisite for power inheritance amongst Egyptian Pharaohs and Imperial Incas and their dynasties lasted very long and were very stable.

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mozzaok

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #13 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 1:37pm

Quote:

the NT is clearly not a complete book when it comes to detailing what is and isn't right

"Abu"

I think the one short sentence from the New Testament can answer that query.

"Do unto others, as you would have them do to you"

It is a pretty simple, basic code for human decency.

I think that is why christians struggle with mohammed's sayings, as he may have had some "nice ones", but he had far too many, "go kill them all" ones too.

I have never heard a single jesus saying that condoned violence in any way shape or form.

I think that is why so many think of Islam as violent, as well as all the actual violence done in it's name, the direct words of mohammed condoning it makes them look at it that way.

Of course the christians who choose to ignore the bible, are a new form of christian, a sort of "semi-christian", which is actually a great improvement on the "traditional" christian, and that has developed only recently, but it is a step in the right direction, because the bible has some very gross violent stuff in it.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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abu_rashid

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Re: Incest in Christianity?
Reply #14 - Oct 16^th, 2008 at 7:08pm

mozza,

Quote:

I think the one short sentence from the New Testament can answer that query.

"Do unto others, as you would have them do to you"

This one's already been used by sprint, and answered by both myself and tallowood, might pay to actually read the preceding posts before replying?

Quote:

I think that is why christians struggle with mohammed's sayings, as he may have had some "nice ones", but he had far too many, "go kill them all" ones too... I think that is why so many think of Islam as violent, as well as all the actual violence done in it's name, the direct words of mohammed condoning it makes them look at it that way.

If you wanna take it off topic onto yet another rant about Islam, then please take it elsewhere. Sprint asked that this topic be placed in a seperate thread to distill it out from all the off topic stuff. So please respect that sentiment if you could. Thanks.

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