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Islamic etiquette (Read 40658 times)
freediver
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Islamic etiquette
Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:07am
 
From the militant Islamics thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1223522110/156#156

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:29pm:
sprint,

Quote:
abu - you dont blieve ANYTHING untoward said about ANY muslim EVER.


Generally, no, I don't. I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.


Could you elbaborate on this 'Islamic etiquette' please Abu? Is it a cultural thing or is it derived from doctrine? Does it apply to all muslims when they are in a disagreement with a non-muslim? What if there are two muslims in a disagreement and one seems to be more 'devout' (eg a cleric vs a rebellious teenager)?

Does it contribute to the inability of the Muslim community to root out terrorists and extremists?

Does it undermine justice where it is combined with a legal system that considers the testimony of a non-Muslim to be inferior?

Does it cause the Muslim community to blame external factors for their problems while failing to 'get their own house in order'?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #1 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:17am
 
Thats quite a number of loaded questions there FD.

Makes you wonder....why ask questions when you already have formed your answers...from your pre-concieved idea's.

Really, I am unsure why Abu even bothers...he has far more patience then I.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #2 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:31am
 
Quote:
I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette


I think this statement is worth exploring in detail. Don't you, lestat? It may explain an awful lot about why there is such distrust of muslims by non-muslims and vise versa.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #3 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:42am
 

Quote:
Could you elbaborate on this 'Islamic etiquette' please Abu?


The first rule is to extend to a Muslim the benefit of the doubt, and in fact this goes for all cases of accusations, innocent until proven guilty, I'm sure there's a similar legal concept in the West, is there not?  Media reports and accusations in tabloids don't amount to proof of guilt

Quote:
Is it a cultural thing or is it derived from doctrine?


If it were cultural, I wouldn't be supporting it, would I? I only support those things derived directly from Islamic teachings, I couldn't care less about Arab cultural practises, or Indian cultural practises, or Indonesian cultural practises, or Albanian cultural practises etc.

It is indeed enshrined in the Islamic texts:

Narrated by Anas Ibn Malik (ra), the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Support your brother if he is the oppresser or the oppressed", it was asked: "O Messenger of Allaah: (we understand about) supporting him when he is oppressed, so how do we support him when he is the oppresser?" He (pbuh) said: "Restrain him from oppressing (anyone), for that is supporting your brother."

Quote:
What if there are two muslims in a disagreement and one seems to be more 'devout' (eg a cleric vs a rebellious teenager)?


As per the above hadith, you must support the one who is oppressing (wrong) by restraining him. As  mentioned numerous times (to you fd) before, there's no such thing as an "Islamic cleric". The most knowledgeable scholar has no special right over the most jahil teenager.

Quote:
Does it contribute to the inability of the Muslim community to root out terrorists and extremists?


The vast majority of extremists and terrorists in this world are on your side of the fence, and I don't see you doing anything to 'root them out', in fact they're running the show and are causing bloodshed and mayhem all over the Islamic world and have been doing so for about a century now... You should look in your own backyard, and then sling  mud at Muslims, once you've completely cleaned it out.

Quote:
Does it undermine justice where it is combined with a legal system that considers the testimony of a non-Muslim to be inferior?


No, as it's not a pretext for lying or falsifying information. In fact we only even stumbled into this subject because I was pointing out how easily people are prepared to accept any accusation brought against a Muslim.

Quote:
Does it cause the Muslim community to blame external factors for their problems while failing to 'get their own house in order'?


Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation. Doesn't mean we for instance won't name the perpetrators of clear agressions against us, but is that really blaming? I don't think so.

In fact the Islamic texts are full of statements which clearly show that the one who does not find good in this world should blame his own self.

"Whoever finds some good, let him praise Allah, and whoever finds other than that, let him blame his own self"

However this has nothing to do with for instance recognising Sharon as the instigator of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, or the Irgun and Stern gangs for the numerous massacres and ethnic cleansing that occured during the occupation of Palestinian villages, or the USA of invading Muslim countries and supplying Israel with weapons to fire on Muslim civilians constantly... We blame ourselves for our clear failure to prevent it, but recognising the aggressor is not blaming them.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #4 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:19am
 
Quote:
You should look in your own backyard

There are terrorists in my backyard!?

EVERYBODY RUN!!!!!
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #5 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:15pm
 
I'm sure there's a similar legal concept in the West, is there not?

There is not one that says only a certain group of people should be extended fair treatement.

Narrated by Anas Ibn Malik (ra), the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Support your brother if he is the oppresser or the oppressed", it was asked: "O Messenger of Allaah: (we understand about) supporting him when he is oppressed, so how do we support him when he is the oppresser?" He (pbuh) said: "Restrain him from oppressing (anyone), for that is supporting your brother."

I don't see how restraining someone from opressing and extending them the benefit of the doubt, or always thinking good of them, are the same thing. Your interpretation of this hadith sounds more like turning a blind eye to their oppression.

Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.

So western interference isn't really to blame for all the problems in the middle east?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #6 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:16pm
 
ROTFLMAO

Quote:
Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.


Sorry. took me ages to stop laughing at that one.
You were joking... right?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #7 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:36pm
 
Grendel wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:16pm:
ROTFLMAO

Quote:
Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.


Sorry. took me ages to stop laughing at that one.
You were joking... right?


Simple minds are amused by simple things.....
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #8 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:38pm
 
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #9 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:15pm
 
jordan484 wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:38pm:
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?


No...only the dopey ones. Unfortunately for you......well, I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Smiley
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #10 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:16pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:36pm:
Grendel wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:16pm:
ROTFLMAO

Quote:
Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.


Sorry. took me ages to stop laughing at that one.
You were joking... right?


Simple minds are amused by simple things.....


I must have a VERY simple mind then.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #11 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:19pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:15pm:
jordan484 wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:38pm:
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?


No...only the dopey ones. Unfortunately for you......well, I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Smiley

Based on your abuse, I'd say you think everyone here who is a non-muslim is "dopey". That's a mighty strange coincidence isn't it?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #12 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:20pm
 
Quote:
There is not one that says only a certain group of people should be extended fair treatement.


That wasn't implied in the original issue (ie. whether OBM should be condemned based merely on accusations made by british tabloids) nor was it implied in my answer, why you've resorted to such points is beyond me. In case it wasn't clear, my statement "and in fact this goes for all cases of accusations, innocent until proven guilty" means that all people are to be given the benefit of the doubt in Islamic law, there's no assumption of guilt, there's assumption of innocence. But as usual, you want to twist and turn everything until you think you found something wrong... It's really a rather tiring dialogue.

Quote:
I don't see how restraining someone from opressing and extending them the benefit of the doubt, or always thinking good of them, are the same thing.


Well you're only taking half of the hadith. The initial statement is "support your brother", the restraining part is just a further explanation of how that support is to materialise in the case that he is an oppressor. Doesn't mean he should be abandoned, falsely accused, slandered, simply because a british tabloid has claimed something  about him

Also it can be further understood by supporting hadiths such as this one:

"Whosoever conceals the faults of a Muslim, Allah will conceal his faults in this world and the Hereafter. Allah will aid a servant (of His) so long as the servant aids his brother."


Quote:
Your interpretation of this hadith sounds more like turning a blind eye to their oppression.


Just to make it quite clear, I don't have an interpretation. Any interpretation I relay to you is that of the classical Islamic scholars, or the companions of Muhammad (pbuh).

Quote:
So western interference isn't really to blame for all the problems in the middle east?


As I mentioned, the West is not to blame. as a Muslim, I cannot claim that it wasn't my fault the Muslims in Palestine for instance were ethnically  cleansed, it was the fault of the British/Zionists. This excuse will avail me nothing on the day of judgement. However, that's different to identifying the perpetrator of crimes. As an example, the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, is the fault of the Muslims for becoming weak and allowing it to happen. The West tried for centuries and could not enter the Muslim lands, and only entered when we permitted them, through our weak faith and lack of political understanding and military resolve.

Your position on this issue is skewed. In effect you're trying to say that Sharon for instance is not responsible for the crimes he committed against the Muslims, or that the USA or the USSR were not responsible for their invasions of Afghanistan and countless other Muslim lands. You have confused apportioning blame for a failure, and recognising the perpetrator of an atrocity. They are two completely different issues.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #13 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:22pm
 
based on the moderators here, they are ok with whatever lestat says.

anyone else has to watch their "p"s and "q"s


typical cult members.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #14 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:26pm
 
Quote:
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?


This coming from the person who's never engaged in a single word of sincere dialogue with a Muslim. Every single one of your posts to or about a Muslim or Islam is riddled with hostility, snide remarks, abuse and general insincerity.

You have some hide asking a Muslim to adhere to any kind of etiquette when dealing with you. You deserve none!
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #15 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 5:25pm
 
abu - "turn the other cheek" or "two wrongs do not make a right."

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #16 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 7:14pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:26pm:
Quote:
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?


This coming from the person who's never engaged in a single word of sincere dialogue with a Muslim. Every single one of your posts to or about a Muslim or Islam is riddled with hostility, snide remarks, abuse and general insincerity.

You have some hide asking a Muslim to adhere to any kind of etiquette when dealing with you. You deserve none!

This coming from someone who started dialogue with me calling me a liar. I have engaged plenty of sincere dialogue which I received abuse back from lestat or sarcasm back from you. Every single post of yours is riddled with bias and bigotry, which you yourself recently have admitted to, you have posted plenty of snide remarks yourself, don't you dare deny that, and are extremely hostile towards anything western.

You have some hide posting this sort of response. You are a bigot, a terrorist sympathiser and excuser of poor and hostile behaviour. You deserve no respect, no allowances, NOTHING! You repulse me. You are the enemy and I will fight against people like you until my dying day.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #17 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 8:02pm
 
Quote:
Every single post of yours is riddled with bias and bigotry, which you yourself recently have admitted


Yes, i can admit I am biased towards Islam, and can be a little hostile in discussions, usually not without  good reason though, as my beliefs are probably under attack. But sometimes you might see me switch out of hostile mode and engage in a genuine dialogue of understanding with other forummers here, or even just approach a discussion at the beginning with some optimism.... I've personally never seen this from you regarding Islam. Any thread about Islam, you are circling around it like a hungry little 'gull waiting to take a snap at it. As Lestat has noted you just follow me around from thread to thread in an unhealthy obesession, making any snide remark you can to my posts. You are constantly hostile to Islam, and are just bursting to use any opportunity to attack it. You're devoid of any optimistic sentiment when it comes to Islam, you just consider every thread on this forum as a new avenue by which to lunge at Islam or Muslims. You are truly consumed (or as Lestat said, obsessed) by your hatred.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #18 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 6:59am
 
Quote:
You are truly consumed (or obsessed) by your hatred.

Like I said last night before you went on your little deleting and locking mission, so are you.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #19 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 5:53pm
 
my statement "and in fact this goes for all cases of accusations, innocent until proven guilty" means that all people are to be given the benefit of the doubt in Islamic law, there's no assumption of guilt, there's assumption of innocence. But as usual, you want to twist and turn everything until you think you found something wrong... It's really a rather tiring dialogue.

So why don't you extend this to non-muslims?

"Whosoever conceals the faults of a Muslim, Allah will conceal his faults in this world and the Hereafter. Allah will aid a servant (of His) so long as the servant aids his brother."

Is this why Islam has no pedophile clerics?

Just to make it quite clear, I don't have an interpretation. Any interpretation I relay to you is that of the classical Islamic scholars, or the companions of Muhammad (pbuh).

You put it into your own words. You cannot do that without conveying your own understanding of them. Otherwise you would respond only with quotes.

In effect you're trying to say that Sharon for instance is not responsible for the crimes he committed against the Muslims, or that the USA or the USSR were not responsible for their invasions of Afghanistan and countless other Muslim lands.

How so?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #20 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 7:00pm
 
Quote:
So why don't you extend this to non-muslims?


That was what I said to begin with, it is. I didn't especially mention non-Muslims (do I need to??), but my original statement applies to all people. The assumption s towards innocence in the Islamic legal system, not guilt.

Quote:
Is this why Islam has no pedophile clerics?


Grow up FD, really.

Quote:
You put it into your own words. You cannot do that without conveying your own understanding of them. Otherwise you would respond only with quotes.


Yes I paraphrased what I've read. But the concepts and the interpretative component do not come from me.

Quote:
Quote:
In effect you're trying to say that Sharon for instance is not responsible for the crimes he committed against the Muslims, or that the USA or the USSR were not responsible for their invasions of Afghanistan and countless other Muslim lands.

How so?


Because everytime a Muslim mentions that someone committed a crime against them, or is doing something oppressive to them, you jump in and claim they're just passing the blame onto others. This clearly indicates that you don't understand the difference between accepting responsibility for our own weakness and identifying the perpetrators of crimes against us.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #21 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 7:19pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 7:00pm:
[quote]
This clearly indicates that you don't understand the difference between accepting responsibility for our own weakness and identifying the perpetrators of crimes against us.



Very well, give us the main aspects of muslim weakness and the crimes you do recognise and accept as muslim responsibility. Just a couple of pointers, please .



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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #22 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:20pm
 

Quote:
Very well, give us the main aspects of muslim weakness


The main weakness Muslims succumbed to was nationalism. Although it is forbidden in Islam, some Muslims around the time of WWI (the so called 'hashemite rebellion') rejected their Islamic identity and instead adopted an 'arab identity' and thereby permitted themselves to be used as implements of disunity and betrayal against their own government for the benefit of the enemies of Islam. Luckily today it is faded into the distant past, and most Muslims are waking up and realising that nationalism is nothing but a disease of the heart.

Quote:
and the crimes you do recognise and accept as muslim responsibility


Actually it was about crimes committed AGAINST Muslims, not by Muslims. Are you actually able to mange your way through an entire post without trying to heap something onto Islam? Must you have an agenda in everything you post?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #23 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:27pm
 
It was a serious question Abu. Churches have a serious problem with pedophiles being covered up. The reason is that they tend to cover up for each other. The church as an institution is trying to tear down that culture of secrecy. But in Islam, hiding the faults of a fellow Muslims is your duty. It's like it is a law designed to benefit criminals.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #24 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:27pm:
It was a serious question Abu. Churches have a serious problem with pedophiles being covered up. The reason is that they tend to cover up for each other. The church as an institution is trying to tear down that culture of secrecy. But in Islam, hiding the faults of a fellow Muslims is your duty. It's like it is a law designed to benefit criminals.


“Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart; and that is the weakest of faith.”

Hadith of the Prophet (SAW).
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #25 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:37pm
 
Can you explain what that means?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #26 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:40pm
 
Do you really need me too.  I would of thought it was pretty much self-explanatory.

Or are you just playing games?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #27 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:46pm
 
What does this bit mean?

and that is the weakest of faith
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #28 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:49pm
 
My take on that is - If you see something that's wrong, do something about it. If you can't physically do something, complain about it until it gets fixed. If you can't complain about it, at least know that it's wrong, but come on guys, get real! Just knowing that it's wrong is a bit lame.

Was I close?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #29 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:50pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:20pm:
Quote:
Very well, give us the main aspects of muslim weakness


The main weakness Muslims succumbed to was nationalism. Although it is forbidden in Islam, some Muslims around the time of WWI (the so called 'hashemite rebellion') rejected their Islamic identity and instead adopted an 'arab identity' and thereby permitted themselves to be used as implements of disunity and betrayal against their own government for the benefit of the enemies of Islam. Luckily today it is faded into the distant past, and most Muslims are waking up and realising that nationalism is nothing but a disease of the heart.

Quote:
and the crimes you do recognise and accept as muslim responsibility


Actually it was about crimes committed AGAINST Muslims, not by Muslims. Are you actually able to mange your way through an entire post without trying to heap something onto Islam? Must you have an agenda in everything you post?



Th west has weaknesses and has committed crimes. Why sniff an agenda if I ask what the weaknesses and crimes of Islam are? Does it only have weaknesses and has not commited crimes? Only non-muslims, especially western / Zionists commit crimes?

All I am 'heaping' on Islam is a couple of questions that Islam (you) 'heaped' on the west in the form of statements, not even questions.
Seeking balance is an agenda now?/






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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #30 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:57pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:49pm:
My take on that is - If you see something that's wrong, do something about it. If you can't physically do something, complain about it until it gets fixed. If you can't complain about it, at least know that it's wrong, but come on guys, get real! Just knowing that it's wrong is a bit lame.

Was I close?


Spot on muso..
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #31 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 10:28pm
 

Quote:
But in Islam, hiding the faults of a fellow Muslims is your duty. It's like it is a law designed to benefit criminals.


If someone commits a crime, then it's required of a Muslim to bear true witness against that crime. However, I don't think that's going to change your line of argument FD, as you'll no doubt reply with some other ridiculous workaround or your argument.

Listen as I've told you enough times, there's no clergy in Islam to even perpetrate the kinds of crimes that exist in Christianity. Also Muslims don't believe in these unnatural vows of celibacy which are probably one of the major cause behind these heinous crimes. Your pathetic attempt to transpose the evils of Christians onto Muslims really doesn't warrant a response.

Quote:
Can you explain what that means?


Glad you asked this time, instead of exhausting yourself seeking out any remote chance of finding something negative in it.

Quote:
What does this bit mean?
and that is the weakest of faith


Actually it's a bit of a mistranslation, it says 'and that is weaker faith', not *the* weakest, the addition of a definite article and the use of the superlative is wrong. But if you read Muso's explanation he got it spot on, don't see why the meaning was so elusive for you?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #32 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 8:33am
 
So is it a contradiction then?

Why is the Muslim community so slow to condemn it's extremists?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #33 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 9:09am
 

As I said, you should look in the mirror, Western democracies have had their most extreme war-mongering elements in power for a long time, who are constantly engaged in terrorist acts against civilians of other countries, most notably Muslims, and you do nothing to remove them whatsoever, you just leave them doing their thing. And every 4 or so years, you exchange him for another one, who continues to do the exact same stuff.

Likewise they've been supporting, funding, arming dictatorships and terrorist governments that are constantly engaged in hostilities against civilian populations.

Anything any Muslim group does in response and retaliation to this can't even compare to the scale of the atrocities inflicted upon them.

Really FD, a lot of people are starting to wake up to this fact, you should too, and so must the entire Western world, if there's to be any real progress towards reconciliation on these issues.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #34 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 9:35am
 
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #35 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 11:12am
 
I'm pretty much repeating what I said in the other thread. So you can't comment on whether there is a contradiction or why the Muslim community is so slow to condemn it's extremists because you are too busy worrying about what the west is up to?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #36 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 9:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 11:12am:
I'm pretty much repeating what I said in the other thread. So you can't comment on whether there is a contradiction or why the Muslim community is so slow to condemn it's extremists because you are too busy worrying about what the west is up to?


If you think you already know the answer...then why are you asking the question?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #37 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 10:08pm
 

The only reason you would require Muslims to unilaterally come out and condemn this act or that act, is because you believe by default all Muslims are guilty of any action carried out by an Islamic group, and therefore they must make a strong point of rejecting and condemning it,in order to collectively clear their names.

It's just ridiculous, and I flatly refuse to do it, even if just for the simple fact that your insinuation that Muslims are presumed to be guilty for these things unless they publically denounce them, is disgusting.

Not only is it an assumption of guilt, it's a collective assumption of guilt. You really should feel ashamed of yourself for such despicable insinuations.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #38 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:29am
 
^^ two thumbs up
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #39 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:51am
 
what a crock aboo...
wrong is wrong, all humanity should be able to recognise it and condemn it for what it is...  even if you share a religion or nationality with those in the wrong.

If more so called moderate muslims openly condemned the wrong-doings of others of their faith then others outside their faith would have greater respect and trust of them.

Your behaviour and attitude just fosters mistrust.

Oh and perhaps those gullible and wrong-headed enough to do these acts might start to think before they do them...  wouldn't that be nice.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #40 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 6:21am
 
I am afraid that I just cannot believe that you do not get our point Abu.

Without the tacit support and understanding of the collective consciousness of the muslim ummah (sounds like what we used to say when we knew someone was going to get in BIG trouble) then those guys in caves with beards and bombs, are just isolated loonies, but that is not the case, is it?

You think you must not speak against them, or their actions, because you share a belief in calling your deity of choice by the same name, and that is low and deceitful, and separatist, and isolationist thinking.

Exactly as Grendel said, it promotes mistrust.

This mistrust is not a product of the bigotry of those non-muslims you despise, it is a product of muslim inability to express and display, a decent moral code to the world, because your religion demands otherwise, it demands you support fellow muslims, irrespective of how repugnant their beliefs or behaviour.

Non-muslims would never accept that as acceptable, we do not think that abrogating individual responsibility is desirable, or moral.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #41 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 8:56am
 

Your mistrust stems from your despicable belief in collective guilt.

Even if I felt inclined to condemn it, I would refrain from doing so, just so as not to validate your assumptions of collective guilt.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #42 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 9:57am
 
The only reason you would require Muslims to unilaterally come out and condemn this act or that act

That's not what I am requiring.

is because you believe by default all Muslims are guilty of any action

No I don't. I am not guilty of everything my government does or everything that Australian people do. That doesn't stop me criticising their actions. I certainly wouldn't refrain from criticising fellow Australians until Muslims stop bombing the crap out of each other.

It's a simple question Abu. Why is the Muslim community so impotent against it's own extremists?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #43 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:24am
 

Quote:
That's not what I am requiring.


You continually insist that it's a given Muslims in general must condemn this act or that act. The most ludicrous part of it is that you actually think they are such severe extremists and yet if someone half way round the world just condemns them, all of a sudden they'll say "Ah you're right, we shouldn't have been doing that, luckily you condemned us in some far off country where we didn't even have any contact with you whatsoever".

Quote:
No I don't. I am not guilty of everything my government does or everything that Australian people do.


That's right you're not. How would you feel if everytime the West did something, all Muslims in Australia demanded you condemn and explain it as if you WERE personally responsible for it? Wouldn't you wanna just say "Get a grip on yourself"??

Quote:
That doesn't stop me criticising their actions


Do you go and make press releases to Australia's Muslim community making it quite clear you disassociate yourself from those acts and condemning them?

Are you aware everytime a terrorist act occurs somewhere in the world, Muslim media representatives (like Waleed Ali) condemn it on public radio/tv and blame it on al-Qai'dah before even the Western media do? It's for this reason that I also flatly refuse to be involved in these little condemnation/blaming games. Even though  they do this, it still doesn't seem to be enough for you anyway, does it? What do you actually want from Muslims? Please do tell...

Quote:
I certainly wouldn't refrain from criticising fellow Australians until Muslims stop bombing the crap out of each other.


I really don't get this one, care to clarify?

Quote:
It's a simple question Abu. Why is the Muslim community so impotent against it's own extremists?


How 'potent' are your condemnations of the allies atrocities against civilians? What makes you think Muslims in Australia, or anywhere for that matter can just release a press statement, and all of a sudden all armed Islamic movements just throw down their weapons and start tip-toeing through the tulips with their occupiers and aggressors? Come on, your entire sentiment is a little naive, if not extremely daft.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #44 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 11:19am
 
The most ludicrous part of it is that you actually think they are such severe extremists and yet if someone half way round the world just condemns them, all of a sudden they'll say "Ah you're right, we shouldn't have been doing that, luckily you condemned us in some far off country where we didn't even have any contact with you whatsoever".

So the Muslim community is impotent against it's own extremists?

How would you feel if everytime the West did something, all Muslims in Australia demanded you condemn and explain it as if you WERE personally responsible for it?

Why would I wait for Muslims to ask me to condemn it? I am not expecting Muslims to criticise everything Muslims do. However, if you try really hard you can get Muslims to say that terrorism for example is wrong, even for a Muslim. It seems that that's as far as it goes.

Do you go and make press releases to Australia's Muslim community making it quite clear you disassociate yourself from those acts and condemning them?

I'm not talking about the Muslims using their condemnation of their own extremists as a diplomatic manouver. But that seems to be the only time they will do it.

Even though  they do this, it still doesn't seem to be enough for you anyway, does it? What do you actually want from Muslims? Please do tell...

Riegn in the lunatics.

I really don't get this one, care to clarify?

That seems to be what you are doing. You deflect to 'the evil west' instead of criticising fellow Muslims.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #45 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 1:49pm
 
rotflmao

yes Mozz...  seems aboo is in denial and wished to blame everyone else for his paranoid delusions.

Admitting something is wrong does not equate to "collective guilt" at all.  talk about stupidity.

In this case we are right and YOU are WRONG Aboo.



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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #46 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 9:39pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 10:08pm:
The only reason you would require Muslims to unilaterally come out and condemn this act or that act, is because you believe by default all Muslims are guilty of any action carried out by an Islamic group, and therefore they must make a strong point of rejecting and condemning it,in order to collectively clear their names.

It's just ridiculous, and I flatly refuse to do it, even if just for the simple fact that your insinuation that Muslims are presumed to be guilty for these things unless they publically denounce them, is disgusting.

Not only is it an assumption of guilt, it's a collective assumption of guilt. You really should feel ashamed of yourself for such despicable insinuations.

This debate reminds me of a discussion I witnessed long ago between a group of southern Irish and English regarding the ‘Troubles’ in Northern Ireland. The subject was raised by a couple of Australians with no connection to Britain or Ireland who were unaware that the subject was usually avoided between British and Irish on holiday. The southern Irish in the group became visibly agitated by the invitation to condemn IRA actions in Northern Ireland and Britain.

Although the Irish group appeared well educated and apparently were not radicals and none had ever lived in Northern Ireland (the same could also be said of the English group), they were nonetheless irritated by the expectation that they should condemn outright IRA actions without the context of the troubles being aired. This, of course, meant a lurch into the history of the tortured, multi-centuried English-Irish conflict which over the course of half an hour found its way back to Oliver Cromwell and his well documented excesses.

In the end wiser minds managed to change the subject, although soon after the group split into two camps and did not interact for the rest of the night.

But I learned from this discussion something I have since seen corroborated throughout the world, which is that cultural memory is forever and that, when pushed hard enough, adherents will defend its preservation without regard to what this defence may imply to ‘the other’.

Consequently, neither side was prepared to give ground, even when each (it appeared to me) did not approve of violence committed by their respective sides It seemed that each believed any condemnation would be an acceptance of collective blame that would stigmatize their shared memory. None was prepared to do it.

I imagine that the same dilemma would occur were a group of European Australians to meet of group of Aboriginal Australians overseas and, say, a Dane was to raise the issue of race relations, the ‘sorry’ speech and the historical treatment of Aborigines on the occasion of Australia Day (or should I say Survival Day, depending on your point of view).
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #47 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:06pm
 
Except that we get hordes of people marching through the city to apologise to the aborigines and demand our leaders do the same. We get massive anti-war protests, regardless of the justification for war. We condemn the thugs who beat up ethnics in Cronulla. Why don't we see anything like that from the Muslim community?

Peace in ireland only came about when the locals stopped pointing their finger across the fence and reigned in their own extremists. It takes both sides to do this. It won't work while one side is expected to do all the peacemaking and the other let's its loonies do whatever they want.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #48 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:13pm
 

Thank you for sharing that helian, a very good insight into what could be the psychological basis for not wanting to play the condemn/blame game.

I'd just like to add though, that as pointed out, there's plenty of Muslim media representatives who gladly get up and condemn these things on a regular basis.

Also, at least in the Northern Ireland conflict, it was admitted both sides were committing violence, the Republican militias and the Protestant paramilitaries (along with the English army at times). Yet in the conflicts between Muslims and the West, the Muslims are cast as the only aggressors, and the West are just the benign good-natured superpower, who tries so hard to practise self-restraint, yet occasionally has to resort to some military actions, but only after being heavily provoked and attacked of course.. And then regrettably, they happen to kill about 100-200 times more civilians as the other side did, but they immediately make press releases stating that it was not on purpose, or even rejecting that it even occured, or playing down the numbers.

Surely you can see why Muslims would reject engaging in any kind of condemn/blame game in such a climate? The West can't even admit they've done anything, let alone condemn it as being wrong.

Not to mention the fact that most Islamic militant groups are purely defensive, resisting occupation in their own countries to expel foreign invaders... whilst in almost every single case, the West are the invaders, chasing energy resources and regional hegemony etc.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #49 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:20pm
 

Quote:
Peace in ireland only came about when the locals stopped pointing their finger across the fence and reigned in their own extremists. It takes both sides to do this. It won't work while one side is expected to do all the peacemaking and the other let's its loonies do whatever they want.


The simple fact you conveniently forget freediver is that the West have been carrying out hostile actions against Muslims for a century or more now. It took the Muslims about 60-70 years to actually respond and resist the Western dominance and hostilities, and yet you paint it like Muslims are the aggressors. It's just ridiculous, you seem to think the hostilities only began in September 2001. You are either completely ignorant of the history, or you have a very short memory.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #50 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:20pm
 
You are paranoid...  lets face it the West has had many Islamic heroes and romanticised the Islamic world through film and literature.

hmmm  can anyone think of anything equivalent from the other side apart from immigrants fleeing the Islamic world.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #51 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:06pm:
Except that we get hordes of people marching through the city to apologise to the aborigines and demand our leaders do the same. We get massive anti-war protests, regardless of the justification for war. We condemn the thugs who beat up ethnics in Cronulla. Why don't we see anything like that from the Muslim community?

Peace in ireland only came about when the locals stopped pointing their finger across the fence and reigned in their own extremists. It takes both sides to do this. It won't work while one side is expected to do all the peacemaking and the other let's its loonies do whatever they want.

The Irish had their peace marches as well.

It does take both sides to resolve conflicts but the conditions for enough offered mutual respect to be able to come to an amicable understanding of each side’s position is almost certainly not possible on internet forums where so many posts are driven by anger.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #52 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:25pm
 

Quote:
lets face it the West has had many Islamic heroes and romanticised the Islamic world through film and literature.


It has? Can you name one?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #53 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:26pm
 
Who's angry?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #54 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:28pm
 
Surely you can see why Muslims would reject engaging in any kind of condemn/blame game in such a climate?

Why? If they had reigned in Al-Qaida, there would have been no need for the US to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 and GWB would not have been able to convince the American people to invade Iraq. What did they expect would happen if they let a bunch of lunatics keep attacking a superpower then running back to the hills? How far did they expect the rest of the world to let Al Quaida go before responding? All the sabre rattling in the ME won't make any difference to their plight. What would make a difference is reigning in their lunatics. It's just basic common sense. If they don't destroy the terrorists, someone else is going to do it for them, and they are going to get hurt in the process.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #55 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:28pm:
Why? If they had reigned in Al-Qaida, there would have been no need for the US to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 and GWB would not have been able to convince the American people to invade Iraq.

You speak as if reigning in a paramilitary organisation is easy. There were many Irish who woke up dead after speaking out against the IRA... If they were lucky and their 'sins' weren't great they were just knee-capped with a bullet.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #56 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:35pm
 
The simple fact you conveniently forget freediver is that the West have been carrying out hostile actions against Muslims for a century or more now.

I haven't forgotten anything Abu. But you don't see French or German extremists crossing the border to blow up buildings do you? They moved on. So did the Japanese, even though they are living under a constitution imposed by the west. If a Japanese terrorist blew up the WTC, do you think the Japanese would stand around whinging about the foreign imposed government, or would they track down the terrorists well before they got to that stage?

It's not just the lunatics attacking the west that I am talking about either. You get Sunnis and Shia's blowing each other up all the time too, just like in Northern Ireland. The difference is that the English and the Irish got together to put an end to it. The Shia's and the Sunni's pointed the finger at each other and refused to reign in the lunatics.

You speak as if reigning in a paramilitary organisation is easy. There were many Irish who woke up dead after speaking out against the IRA... If they were lucky and their 'sins' weren't great they were just knee-capped with a bullet.

Did that stop the peace process? How easy is it living under a US occupation, or seeing '100 times' as many locals killed as your extremists manage to take out? Did they hope the problem would just go away if they took the easy way out?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #57 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:39pm
 

The simple fact is freediver that the conflict has a much longer history. It goes back to the British invasion of the Ottoman lands, the Sykes-Picot agreement, the creation of Israel, and the setting up of all the Arab dictators.

These actions set the stage for the current conflict, and their 'maintenance' is what keeps it going.

The simple fact is, until US support for the Zionists and the Arab dictators ceases, this conflict will not cease. No amount of condemnations, peace dialogues, peaceful marches etc. is going to do it. This is a very different situation and you must relaise this. It is like the Crusades, for Muslims...
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #58 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:35pm:
Did that stop the peace process? How easy is it living under a US occupation? Did they hope the problem would just go away if they took the easy way out?

How long has the Irish-English conflict lasted? How long was the IRA campaign against British rule in Northern Ireland?
How long did it take for the peace process to have any effect?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #59 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:41pm
 
Abu every conflict in Europe has an equally long history. Every conflict in the world does. That doesnt change anything. You have to reign in your own extremists as a first step. Why is the Muslim community so impotent in that regard?

How long has the Irish-English conflict lasted? How long was the IRA campaign against British rule in Northern Ireland?
How long did it take for the peace process to have any effect?


It took a very long time. So what? Is there some kind of logic here where you conclude it's not worth it because it takes so long?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #60 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:41pm
 
And in all the years since then they still haven't managed to get their acts together   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #61 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 11:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:41pm:
Abu every conflict in Europe has an equally long history. Every conflict in the world does. That doesnt change anything. You have to reign in your own extremists as a first step. Why is the Muslim community so impotent in that regard?

How long has the Irish-English conflict lasted? How long was the IRA campaign against British rule in Northern Ireland?
How long did it take for the peace process to have any effect?


It took a very long time. So what? Is there some kind of logic here where you conclude it's not worth it because it takes so long?

Who says its not worth it? Who says the process has not begun?

Reigning in or dismantling a sophisticated paramilitary organisation would be part of the final act which would require prior resolution of the case for conflict.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #62 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 6:01am
 

Quote:
you don't see French or German extremists crossing the border to blow up buildings do you?. They moved on. So did the Japanese, even though they are living under a constitution imposed by the west.


Those countries (with the exception of Japan) are Western, so they share the same ideology with the US. Therefore it's quite normal for them to accept the US dominance and to operate within it. For Muslims it is not, and they never will. You have to stop making simplistic analogies and deducing so much from them.

Quote:
do you think the Japanese would stand around whinging about the foreign imposed government, or would they track down the terrorists well before they got to that stage?


Just who do you think is going to 'track down the loonies'? Even the world's greatest superpower can't track down Bin Laden!!! Do you think the Arab dictators are going to? The Pakistani government? They are all agents to the US, so if the US can't, I doubt their pathetic agents could. Or is what you're really suggesting is that regular Muslims should form a counter-militia and become the US' proxy army on the ground? That's what you really want isn't it? For us to fight your war for you, that's what you seek to incite in Muslims with your suggestions of 'reigning in the loonies'. Get a grip on yourself.

The West have created this mess, and they're going to keep suffering from it, until they admit they're wrong and change their ways. You really should read that book Imperial Hubris by the former head of the CIA's OBL unit. It addresses quite a lot of the misconceptions you seem to hold freediver. The first is the misconception that Islamic militias are just a bunch of primitive loonies running around making senseless attacks on civilisation.  Scheuer notes that underestimating the enemy like this, is the most dangerous undermining concept the Western world holds.

Quote:
You get Sunnis and Shia's blowing each other up all the time too


Let me ask you, did this happen prior to the US invasion of Iraq? Can you show me how many cases of this occured prior to 2002? Do you even know why it's happening?? Not the usual "because their savages and can't even live in peace with one another" garbage, do you really know the reason behind it? They've been living together in IRaq relatively peacefully for many centuries under Ottoman rule, why all of a sudden are they blowing each other up? Surely there's something else to it, if it just all of a sudden started happening.. I shouldn't expect you to be too intuitive though when it comes to examining this.

Quote:
The difference is that the English and the Irish got together to put an end to it.


They had the conditions existing for peace, in this situation there is not. If Islamic militias 'de-commission' right now, the US is occupying two of our countries, Israel still exists and our countries are still mostly ruled by US installed/backed dictators. Unless those situations ALL change, don't expect to see any remote chance of a cessation of hostilities for the next few decades at least, if not much longer. Old Dubya got you in for the long haul here, not a quick Vietnam style disaster, a long drawn out disaster. Go and read about the last time the West invaded the Muslim lands the occupation in that time lasted 99 years, and the Muslim militias didn't cease until every single last soldier was expelled. Don't be afraid to learn from history. also interestingly enough during that time too the Caliphate had been destroyed, and it was the rallying against the Western invaders that helped it to be re-established.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #63 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 6:09am
 
Sorry, but JFTR.
Rain=wet stuff
Reign= yes, your highness
Rein= whoa nelly.

Sorry to interrupt, but it was being repeated a lot, so I thought I may rein it in. Roll Eyes
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #64 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 6:13am
 
Just face it, Islam is out of control.
Insane zealots are preaching extremism in every corner of the globe, and all we hear from Islam, is "well you started it".

For [mod: even modified profanity is not permitted here] sake, grow up.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #65 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 6:26am
 

Perhaps you need to have a read of Mr Scheuer's book also. Smiley

Thanks for the spelling tip.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #66 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 7:09am
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 19th, 2008 at 6:09am:
Sorry, but JFTR.
Rain=wet stuff
Reign= yes, your highness
Rein= whoa nelly.

Sorry to interrupt, but it was being repeated a lot, so I thought I may rein it in. Roll Eyes

Yes, of course you're right.

It could just be a faulty meme propagating itself.

And yet maybe there’s some congruity between ruling and commanding an army.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #67 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 1:24pm
 
Quote:
Those countries (with the exception of Japan) are Western, so they share the same ideology with the US. Therefore it's quite normal for them to accept the US dominance and to operate within it. For Muslims it is not, and they never will. You have to stop making simplistic analogies and deducing so much from them.


ROTFLMAO

You guys need to get a life.

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #68 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 2:37pm
 
Quote:
It has? Can you name one?


You are soooo easy.  Almost missed that...  btw not to know this shows major ignorance on your part.

Sinbad
Ali Baba (and the 40 thieves.)
Saladin
Aladdin

Movies
Any number re Sinbad.
Ali Baba and the 40 thieves.
Son of Ali Baba.
Scheherezade.
The Prince who was a Thief.
Aladdin.
1001 Arabian Nights.
The Thief of Bagdad.
The Longships.
King Richard and the Crusaders.
The Golden Blade.
Lawrence of Arabia
The Wind and the Lion.
The Brass Bottle.
Robin Hood Prince of Thieves.
The Mummy.

just to name a few.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #69 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 3:07pm
 
Quote:
lets face it the West has had many Islamic heroes and romanticised the Islamic world through film and literature.


Sinbad: Fabled sailor, not an Islamic hero.

Ali Baba (and the 40 thieves.): Fabled criminal, definitely not an Islamic hero.

Saladin: This one you're correct he was an Islamic hero, but show me how the West considers him a hero?

Aladdin: Fabled figure, not an Islamic hero.

Scheherezade: Fabled figure, not an Islamic hero.

1001 Arabian Nights: Arabic/Persian fables, nothing to do with Islamic heroes.

The Longships: Fabled story

King Richard and the Crusaders: King Richard is obviously supposed to be the hero, not any Muslim leader.

The Golden Blade: Fabled account of Harun ar-Rashid loosely based on 1001 nights.

Lawrence of Arabia: A British spy infiltrates the Muslims and incites them to commit treason... At least it was close it had the word Arabia in it..

The Wind and the Lion: Fictional account of the kidnapping of some American kids by a Moroccan?

The Brass Bottle: Fantasy story about a Genie??

Robin Hood Prince of Thieves: Umm, Robin Hood was a British legend

The Mummy: Isn't this about a Jew that goes treasure hunting in Egypt or something? It's kind of close, Middle East at least.

Come on Grendel that was pathetic. About the only example that can really be accepted is Salahudin (May God be well pleased with him), can you even show a film though that depicts him as a hero? Kingdom of heaven portrayed him as somewhat noble, hardly the hero, and used someone with a very thick accent and very poor manner of speaking, just to counter that anyway. And more to the point, they actually invented a completely fictional character to be the hero of the movie. That was just ridiculous.

Just because a film has some fantasy middle eastern tales interwoven into it, doesn't mean it's got Islamic heroes in it, nor that it's showing Islam in a positive light.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #70 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 3:12pm
 
Quote:
nor that it's showing Islam in a positive light.

Maybe there's a reason for that?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #71 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 4:37pm
 
Who says its not worth it? Who says the process has not begun?

If the current situation represents progress I'd hate to see what they started from. In any case, why did you feel the need to point out that it can take time to work, or that reigning in your own extremists can be dangerous?

Reigning in or dismantling a sophisticated paramilitary organisation would be part of the final act which would require prior resolution of the case for conflict.

This is a major problem in the approach of the muslim community. Maybe it answers my question about why they are so impotent against their own extremists. You cannot leave reigning in your extremists till the last step, it has to be the first. That's the only way it will work, other than annihilating your enemy.

Those countries (with the exception of Japan) are Western, so they share the same ideology with the US. Therefore it's quite normal for them to accept the US dominance and to operate within it.

What does the conflict between France and Germany, and the resolution of it, have to do with the US? Do you think the US forced them to kiss and make up? If you do, you are wrong. They made up because they (as individuals) were sick of war.

Just who do you think is going to 'track down the loonies'?

Their neighbours? If a community rejects extremists then it will be easy to track them down. It is only when the community supports them either directly or through their silence that the extremists can get away with going round blowing innocent people up.

Even the world's greatest superpower can't track down Bin Laden!!!

Sure, it would be easier if the locals turfed him out, but for some reason the locals support what he did. Hence my question.

Do you think the Arab dictators are going to?

IF they were in the US' pocket as you claim they would have.

The Pakistani government?

They do appear to be pulling their finger out, which is a good sign. But it is baby steps.

Or is what you're really suggesting is that regular Muslims should form a counter-militia and become the US' proxy army on the ground?

Are you suggesting that Muslims would only track down terrorists because the US asked them to? Is all that mouthing off about 'we don't support terrorists' just BS? Why can't they even act in their own self interest? Or can they not even figure out that letting terrorists run loose in the hills invites invasions from pissed off Americans, who have a bit more trouble telling who the good and bad guys are?

That's what you really want isn't it? For us to fight your war for you, that's what you seek to incite in Muslims with your suggestions of 'reigning in the loonies'. Get a grip on yourself.

Well done Abu, that's exactly what I want. This whole thing would be over quickly if the Muslims could reign in the extremists. You don't want the US invading any more middle eastern countries. Neither do we. Even from the perspective of a nation, an army, or a Caliphate, reigning in nutcases and stopping them from getting you into wars you don't want is fundamental. It's basic common sense. I can't figure out why you think this is a bad thing. If some Australian started blowing up buildings in Indonesia and started a war with them, I'd be in line to string him up from the nearest tree. But it would be a very long line. And I wouldnt care what pissweak excuses he came up with about how the Indonesians deserved it. Even if they did, it doesn't mean we deserve a war we don't want.

Let me ask you, did this happen prior to the US invasion of Iraq?

Sure. Saddam had to kill thousands of people to get them to stop killing each other.

They've been living together in IRaq relatively peacefully for many centuries under Ottoman rule, why all of a sudden are they blowing each other up?

Because they have the chance to. Because the leader of the Caliphate at least had the good sense to reign in the loonies. Maybe he sent them off to war. Maybe that's the answer - Muslims can't reign in loonies because that's the Caliphate's job. They can't figure out how to do it themselves.

They had the conditions existing for peace, in this situation there is not.

They didn't 'have' them. They made them. What they had was a powderkeg that could have dragged on for centuries. It still might if they don't riegn in the extremists.

If Islamic militias 'de-commission' right now, the US is occupying two of our countries, Israel still exists and our countries are still mostly ruled by US installed/backed dictators.

No-one likes a dictator. It would be simple enough to get the west to stop supporting them. Maybe you could even get the west to help remove them, though you might have a bit of trouble explaining what you would replace them with. All it takes is for you to get the western media to focus on western backing of evil dictators, rather than loonies blowing up buildings. Guess how you achieve that? Reigning in the loonies. Ghandi left the British impotent against his attacks, yet he didn't kill a single person. Rather, he knew his enemy.

Old Dubya got you in for the long haul here, not a quick Vietnam style disaster, a long drawn out disaster.

Don't count on it. The west will loose patience soon and pull out, leaving another messy power vaccuum. We went in without understanding our enemy - we didn't realise they were a bunch of loonies.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #72 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 4:38pm
 
Go and read about the last time the West invaded the Muslim lands the occupation in that time lasted 99 years, and the Muslim militias didn't cease until every single last soldier was expelled.

And this is what makes you think the west is going to stay there for a long time?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #73 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 7:15pm
 
whoosh...  went right over your head didn't it aboo...  with adherents like you Islam will never understand anything.

Oh BTW  "Islamic heroes"...  I was referring to heroes in Western movies who were portayed as Islamic you doofus.

You are a total J O K E !!!!!

Lol....  I think everyone should just give up on you as a waste of time...  you have no idea what you are talking about or the significance of my point.  Oh BTW RHPTT...  there is an Islamic hero in that too.. der.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #74 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 8:02pm
 

That was a pretty mature response..
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #75 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 8:33pm
 
reediver,

Quote:
This is a major problem in the approach of the muslim community. Maybe it answers my question about why they are so impotent against their own extremists.


As has been mentioned plenty of times already, Muslim militias are just a reaction to the Western hostilities. If the West just gets their act together and stops being so aggressive and meddling towards Muslims, chances are those militias would either wither away, or meld into a conventional military of a country.

It's the Western actions which have led to this situation, and the US government has been well aware of this escalating situation since at least the Eisenhower administration. They don't want to do anything to reverse it, as they're quite happy with it like that. Now you, as a citizen of a Western country, have a responsibility to make it overtly clear to your leaders that you're not happy with them doing that, if you don't like the outcomes of their policies, which they themselves have openly admitted have caused this conflict.

It seems you want them punished, rather than neutralised, and this is a worry, because that kind of sentiment is going to further prolong any kind of sincere peace effort from coming to fruition.

Quote:
Their neighbours? If a community rejects extremists then it will be easy to track them down.


Ahh, you mean the people who've been bombed relentlessly for the past 7 years? Probably lost some of their children/siblings/parents etc. to US terrorist attacks. Or who've been tortured under successive pro-US regimes in the region? Yeh I'm sure they'd be glad to help you. I can't believe you're so blinded as to not be able to see how you've made this mess for yourself.

Quote:
Sure, it would be easier if the locals turfed him out, but for some reason the locals support what he did. Hence my question.


Gee I wonder what it could be that would cause them to support it... *thinks*... hmmm, could it be that we've bombed them to smithereens, oppressed them and their co-religionists for decades to satisfy our energy needs, installed regimes that oppress and torture and impoverish them?? Support their enemies against them.. Or could it be that they're just evil savage stone-age Muslims... Yep I'll go with the latter, makes me feel a bit better about myself.

Now I hope your thought processes are *at least* that evolved on the subject? Don't tell me that didn't even come to mind and you're still just completely oblivious as to what on earth could possibly cause them to support this?

Ahh, I remember, the Muslim code of silence... of course. It is shallow thinkers like you freediver that will allow this conflict to go on and on.

Quote:
They do appear to be pulling their finger out, which is a good sign. But it is baby steps.


Musharraf was a much more loyal servant, too bad you let that become too well known though, because it meant he couldn't stay in office. The US really need to learn how to keep their distance from their pet dictators, like they did in Saudi, by pulling all their troops out, when it finally become so unpopular it threatened the stability of the pets.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that Muslims would only track down terrorists because the US asked them to?


Nope, I'm suggesting the whole concept would only even exist in your fantasy world.

As mentioned above, people who you bomb and murder their kids and stuff, generally wouldn't help you out for any reason. When will people like you finally wake up to this fact?

Quote:
Is all that mouthing off about 'we don't support terrorists' just BS?


I don't remember mouthing off. I said targetting civilians is not permitted in Islam and it's most definitely not. But I'm not the one who's their neighbour (which is who you claim should rein them in), the guy whose son has a leg blown off, his daughter was blown to bits by a US dropped bomb, his brother is languishing in a US run prison camp for no reason whatsoever is the one you gotta convince... Good luck, you're gonna really need it.

Quote:
Why can't they even act in their own self interest?


Put yourself in their shoes. If you'd been a victim of a US bomb or some other hostilities, would you consider aiding the one who'd committed atrocities against you to be in your interest?

The fact is, the allies are now actually admitting that they've painted themselves into a corner. They've alienated the population with their open aggressions against the civilian population. Why can't you see it freediver? Bit slow on the uptake are you?

What's even more amazing is that you consider yourself a bit of a freethinker who's not duped by the Allied propaganda, but it seems you're even more duped than they are. They are publically admitting these things I'm stating to you, and yet you still haven't caught on. do you listen to the news?

Quote:
You don't want the US invading any more middle eastern countries. Neither do we. Even from the perspective of a nation, an army, or a Caliphate


If you really don't want it, then lobby your leaders to pull out. Since none of these hostilities existed prior to the invasions (btw, creation and maintenance to Israel is considered part of the invasions)

Quote:
Sure. Saddam had to kill thousands of people to get them to stop killing each other.


Saddam is considered a one-man pre-invasion force by most Muslims. He was recruited by the CIA in the late 1950's and was a loyal servant since.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #76 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 8:59pm
 
No... it was a totally accurate response.

You are clueless and in denial...  for all to see BTW.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #77 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 9:58pm
 
As has been mentioned plenty of times already, Muslim militias are just a reaction to the Western hostilities.

This is the problem. For some reason Muslims don't see it as anything more. A rational person would see more than one cause, more than one result, and more than one problem. Even if they don't care about all the innocent westerners killed by the loonies, they would still see the militias as a problem for themselves. But for some reason even self interest is short circuited and the Muslim only sees revenge, but is blind to the cost of revenge.

Ahh, you mean the people who've been bombed relentlessly for the past 7 years?

Yes. You'd think they'd be sick of being bombed wouldn't you? Like the residents of Northern Ireland. But no, they go back out and throw sticks at the fighter jets. Why is that Abu?

Now I hope your thought processes are *at least* that evolved on the subject? Don't tell me that didn't even come to mind and you're still just completely oblivious as to what on earth could possibly cause them to support this?

I thought Muslims were opposed to the murder of innocent civilians. Or are only Muslims innocent?

Nope, I'm suggesting the whole concept would only even exist in your fantasy world.

For most of the world, it is not a fantasy. It is only a fantasy for the middle east. Why is that Abu?

As mentioned above, people who you bomb and murder their kids and stuff, generally wouldn't help you out for any reason. When will people like you finally wake up to this fact?

Why won't they even help themselves then?

Put yourself in their shoes. If you'd been a victim of a US bomb or some other hostilities, would you consider aiding the one who'd committed atrocities against you to be in your interest?

I'm not saying it is an easy decision. But other people all around the world have made the tough choices and walked away from terrorism as a solution to their problems. Why can't Muslims?

The fact is, the allies are now actually admitting that they've painted themselves into a corner. They've alienated the population with their open aggressions against the civilian population. Why can't you see it freediver? Bit slow on the uptake are you?

Did you read what I posted earlier? I said pretty much the same thing, after you claimed the west was going to stay in the ME for a long time. The end result will be a few thousand dead Americans and a few hundred thousand dead Muslims. Is that a good result?

If you really don't want it, then lobby your leaders to pull out. Since none of these hostilities existed prior to the invasions (btw, creation and maintenance to Israel is considered part of the invasions)

I do lobby the politicians on what I think is right. But I don't seek to undo history and redraw the borders back to some magic point in time when everything was how I wanted. Perhaps that's another part of the problem - unrealistic expectations.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #78 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 10:53pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 19th, 2008 at 4:37pm:
Reigning in or dismantling a sophisticated paramilitary organisation would be part of the final act which would require prior resolution of the case for conflict.

This is a major problem in the approach of the muslim community. Maybe it answers my question about why they are so impotent against their own extremists. You cannot leave reigning in your extremists till the last step, it has to be the first. That's the only way it will work, other than annihilating your enemy.

Paramilitary orgs cease their actions when it's in their interests to do so (given they have not exhausted their supply of willing combatants), as the IRA did, or as Moqtada al-Sadr is currently doing and if the Iraqi government allows US bases to remain in Iraq, al-Sadr will no doubt take up the fight again. Why would armed militias cease their activities without an incentive? In the end negotiation with paramilitary orgs (probably including al Qaida) will be the only way out.

If Indonesia annexed Cape York peninsula and populated the area with an Indonesian sub-culture who claimed ancestral rights over it, would you be prepared to fight in a militia to reclaim it?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #79 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 10:58pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:25pm:
Quote:
lets face it the West has had many Islamic heroes and romanticised the Islamic world through film and literature.


It has? Can you name one?

There is one that I've seen... 'The Message' (although the director was Syrian).

Anthony Quinn plays Hamza. No one plays the prophet... the camera is his eye.

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #80 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 11:34pm
 

The Message, was completely paid for by Muslim donations and was made by Mustapha Akkad. It had nothing to do with the West, other than he happened to use some Western names and facilities to produce it.

And most Westerners have never even heard of it, I'm quite surprised you have. Smiley
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #81 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 11:39pm
 
I expect better from you than playing with the pedants helian..

Is sinbad a hero?
Is he a muslim?
Is ali baba a hero?
Is he a muslim?
Is aladdin a hero?
Is he a muslim?
Is the character portrayed by Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood POT a hero?
Is he a Muslim?

the answer to all those is YES.

So it is with every example I posted and there are hundreds more.

It more than bears out my original statement.

Regardless of fools playing the pedant and wrestling with semantics as they wriggle and squirm in denial.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #82 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:41am
 
Grendel wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:20pm:
You are paranoid...  lets face it the West has had many Islamic heroes and romanticised the Islamic world through film and literature.

hmmm  can anyone think of anything equivalent from the other side apart from immigrants fleeing the Islamic world.

I've heard Baywatch is popular in Iran.

Not sure if Pamela Anderson is a Muslim, but.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #83 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 8:16am
 
Hmmm...  baywatch...  made by mulsims.
never knew that helian.
Thanks

Cheesy
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #84 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:22am
 

Check the forum guidelines, sexual innuendo is not welcome here. Take it elsewhere.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #85 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:24am
 
I'm lucky I never asked what he used as the "boom" then. Grin
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #86 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:53am
 
Why would armed militias cease their activities without an incentive?

You don't think that avoiding another Iraq or Afghanistan is enough incentive? What about not blowing up innocent fellow Muslims? Why is that not an incentive?

And besides, I don't expect the loonies to lay down their weapons by choice. Someone is going to have to take them out. I'd rather they didn't leave it up to the west. I'm pretty sure most Muslims would rather it wasn't left up to the west. But for some reason they are impotent against their own extremists.

In the end negotiation with paramilitary orgs (probably including al Qaida) will be the only way out.

You can only negotiate with them once they have been reigned in. That is, once they are capable of acting more like a regular army, where an order from above to cease hostilities will have an impact. You cannot negotiate with a bunch of loonies who all want something different.

If Indonesia annexed Cape York peninsula and populated the area with an Indonesian sub-culture who claimed ancestral rights over it, would you be prepared to fight in a militia to reclaim it?

As part of a regular army, sure. I wouldn't go there and blow up buildings and kill innocent* civilians and start another war that my fellow Australians did not want. There comes a time when killing people no longer serves a useful purpose. It is just murder.

*I do not limit the use of the term innocent to those who share my ideology.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #87 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:15am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:53am:
You don't think that avoiding another Iraq or Afghanistan is enough incentive? What about not blowing up innocent fellow Muslims? Why is that not an incentive?

And besides, I don't expect the loonies to lay down their weapons by choice. Someone is going to have to take them out. I'd rather they didn't leave it up to the west. I'm pretty sure most Muslims would rather it wasn't left up to the west. But for some reason they are impotent against their own extremists.

Apparently some causes are worth dying for and others are worth killing for. Don’t presume that they’re loonies because they are part of a paramilitary org. I bet you’d find that al-Sadr is an intelligent and quite sane leader.

freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:53am:
You can only negotiate with them once they have been reigned in. That is, once they are capable of acting more like a regular army, where an order from above to cease hostilities will have an impact. You cannot negotiate with a bunch of loonies who all want something different.

Then you’ll be fighting for a very long time.

freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:53am:
As part of a regular army, sure. I wouldn't go there and blow up buildings and kill innocent* civilians and start another war that my fellow Australians did not want. There comes a time when killing people no longer serves a useful purpose. It is just murder.

Nice and easy when it’s black and white. What if our army was defeated and the US (warned off by China) did not come to our rescue? Why would Australians not want to continue the fight to reclaim the territory? What if most Australians wanted to continue a guerrilla war against Indonesia and Indonesians? What if your parents or your own children were shot dead by Indonesian troops?

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #88 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:26am
 
Quote:
What if your parents or your own children were shot dead


Unfortunately people are wrongly killed in wars, and if we accept that tit for tat retribution is acceptable, then they never stop.

Sometimes people see that they have to accept that the madness and violence must stop, and revenge will not bring back their loved ones, it will, in fact, only ensure that another family experiences the same grief.

The disturbing element of Islamist terrorism, is that a cleric in java, feels so aggrieved about the wrongs he perceives in the middle east, that he decides his faith demands he teach kids to blow up civilians.
He empathises with the victims of the middle east, because he shares a belief in the same deity, he displays hatred towards the civilians he targets, because they do not.

A new cycle of hatred and revenge spreads.

Should all friends and families of the Bali bombing victims target muslims for retribution?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #89 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:46am
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:26am:
Quote:
What if your parents or your own children were shot dead


Unfortunately people are wrongly killed in wars, and if we accept that tit for tat retribution is acceptable, then they never stop.

Sometimes people see that they have to accept that the madness and violence must stop, and revenge will not bring back their loved ones, it will, in fact, only ensure that another family experiences the same grief.

The disturbing element of Islamist terrorism, is that a cleric in java, feels so aggrieved about the wrongs he perceives in the middle east, that he decides his faith demands he teach kids to blow up civilians.
He empathises with the victims of the middle east, because he shares a belief in the same deity, he displays hatred towards the civilians he targets, because they do not.

A new cycle of hatred and revenge spreads.

Should all friends and families of the Bali bombing victims target muslims for retribution?

I would suggest that if part of the Australian mainland was annexed by a foreign power, causing the maiming and deaths of hundreds or thousands of Australians in Cairns and further north, most Australians would not be in the mood for Gandhi-isms.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #90 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:02am
 
ROTFLMAO

WHY THANK YOU ABOO TOR PROVING MY POINT ABOUT MULTICULTI TOLERANCE....

Good to see that our cultures are so compatible.   Cheesy
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #91 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:14am
 
Apparently some causes are worth dying for and others are worth killing for.

So destroying the twin towers was worth the death of a few hundred thousand innocent Muslims? Is that what you think?

Don’t presume that they’re loonies because they are part of a paramilitary org.

That's not why I think they are loonies.

Then you’ll be fighting for a very long time.

Not necessarily. There is every chance the west will pull out and leave them to kill each other. According to Abu, it's pretty easy to set up a puppet government to do all the killing for you. It might even be possible to set up a democracy to do it for you, which is pretty ironic.

Why would Australians not want to continue the fight to reclaim the territory?

Sure, regaining the territory might be worth fighting for. But if it just meant we would loose more territory and a few hundred thousand more fellow Australians would die in the process, then it would be time to cut our losses. Maybe that's the problem, Muslims just cannot accept the reality of their situation, nor see alternative paths to their goal.

Do the Muslims think they can win a showdown with the west? They think keeping up in a war for which the west is not even willing to sacrifice it's lifestyle is some great victory?

What if most Australians wanted to continue a guerrilla war against Indonesia and Indonesians?

Are you saying that the majority of Muslims support terrorists? It's not that they are impotent against them, they actually support them? Are those Muslims lying who say that the majority of their co-religionists oppose terrorism?

The reason that conflicts come to a halt in the west, even in quagmires like Northern Ireland, is because the majority of westerners do not support terrorism.

I would suggest that if part of the Australian mainland was annexed by a foreign power, causing the maiming and deaths of hundreds or thousands of Australians in Cairns and further north, most Australians would not be in the mood for Gandhi-isms.

Ghandi did not promote pacifism as a response to that sort of agression. He was a realist. He promoted pacifism because it might work against the British. He knew that it was the agressor, not the oppressed, who dictate the level of violence in a conflict. He understood his enemy. The muslims appear to have no understanding at all of their 'enemy'.

Like I said, we would fight back, and throw everything we had at them. But if we lost the war, we would not let extremists start a new one we do not want every few years. European countries have been annexing bits of each other since the first chief decided to draw a boundary on a map. But you won't find many Europeans advocating a return to the first boundaries they can trace back to.

Maybe that's the problem. Muslims cannot tell the difference between an organised army that has a chance of winning and a bunch of loonies who will only bring misery to their fellow countrymen. All that matters is that you fight the holy war.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #92 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:18am
 

Quote:
I would suggest that if part of the Australian mainland was annexed by a foreign power, causing the maiming and deaths of hundreds or thousands of Australians in Cairns and further north, most Australians would not be in the mood for Gandhi-isms.


Nice one helian, that's one of the most common advices offered to Muslims "Look at Gandhi, go resist Israeli gunships with hunger strikes!!". Easy to say when they're not the target of the gunships.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #93 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:23am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:18am:
Quote:
I would suggest that if part of the Australian mainland was annexed by a foreign power, causing the maiming and deaths of hundreds or thousands of Australians in Cairns and further north, most Australians would not be in the mood for Gandhi-isms.


Nice one helian, that's one of the most common advices offered to Muslims "Look at Gandhi, go resist Israeli gunships with hunger strikes!!". Easy to say when they're not the target of the gunships.


Again you misunderstand your enemy Abu. Obviously a hunger strike would not work if your fellow Muslims kept blowing up busses. However, if you could reign in your loonies, a hunger strike would end Israeli agression faster than any campaign of killing innocent civilians. You even seem to realise that Israel depends on the west for support, but you don't seem to realise how many in the west are not exactly fond of Israel and would quickly put an end to Isreali agression against pacifists.

Of course, that would not help you wipe Israel off the map, which is the real reason why it is not an option for Muslims.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #94 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:40am
 

Quote:
You even seem to realise that Israel depends on the west for support, but you don't seem to realise how many in the west are not exactly fond of Israel and would quickly put an end to Isreali agression against pacifists.


You misunderstand your fellow Westerners support for Israel. Go to youtube and search for Obama's speech to AIPAC, you might get a better idea of how US support for Israel works..

Quote:
Of course, that would not help you wipe Israel off the map, which is the real reason why it is not an option for Muslims.


True, Gandhi was struggling for the withdrawal of a foreign occupier, who lived abroad. The Palestinians are struggling for a foreign occupier who's setup camp in their land. The one who lived abroad can just bring his men home, the one who's setup camp cannot, he calls your home home. So it's a different situation, surely you can appreciate that.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #95 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:43am
 
Quote:
You misunderstand your fellow Westerners support for Israel. Go to youtube and search for Obama's speech to AIPAC, you might get a better idea of how US support for Israel works..


You are ignoring the context. If the context was Israeli agression against pacifists, that would change everything overnight.

Quote:
True, Gandhi was struggling for the withdrawal of a foreign occupier, who lived abroad. The Palestinians are struggling for a foreign occupier who's setup camp in their land. The one who lived abroad can just bring his men home, the one who's setup camp cannot, he calls your home home. So it's a different situation, surely you can appreciate that.


You mean like in Northern Ireland?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #96 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:47am
 
We've been over the Palestine thing aboo and you admitted you lied, were wrong incorrect...  ok
So why keep perpetrating the same crap.
The Mandate palestine was created by the Brits.
It is now mostly Jordan.
there were no Palestinians b4 then.
The tribes that inhabited the area from way back were not only Muslims.
BTW Muslims are a much more recent arrival.
Hence the Jews/hebrews whatever you want to call them have as much right to be there.

Now this is gonna hurt...  fd...  I back almost everything you say on these Islamic topics Smiley Shocked Cool
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #97 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:51am
 

Quote:
You are ignoring the context. If the context was Israeli agression against pacifists, that would change everything overnight.


I really don't think it would. you're a little too idealistic freediver, and just don't understand the way this relationship works. Like for instance when Israel bulldozed (and murdered) an American peace activist, there were no repercusions whatsoever, and that's one of their own!! It was brushed aside in the media and most actually criticised the girl and claimed it was her own fault anyway... Have you seen "Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land"? If not, I sincerely advise you take a look at it. Besides, the Palestinians resisted peacefully for most of the early part of this invasion, that's why they ended up spread all over the middle east. There was no busses bloown up until the 1980's after decades upon decades of atrocities against civilians that went completely unanswered. Your theory failed.

Also you need to understand, Gandhi was working for, and attained something the West wanted anyway. The British wanted to get rid of their colonies, they just wnated to ensure they were going to still have a lot of influence in them after they did, and they do... indicating Gandhi didn't really win a lot anyway. Same with most Muslim lands who thought they won their 'independance' it was a joke.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #98 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:53am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:14am:
… as above…

Symptoms of our glorious innocence.

As the ‘great’ Churchill suggested (although he was probably drunk at the time) referring to Curtin’s plea for Australian troops to be returned to fight the Japanese, that Australians needed to toughen up and learn something about the full impact of war, including invasion and the sudden catastrophic destruction of society. He thought us too ignorant of the realities of conflict. Europeans in Europe have witnessed countless land grabs and territorial wars and practically every nation on the continent has had their days of hegemony. They’re used to fighting over and losing and gaining territory… we in Australia are not.

I would bet that an Australian Unionist militia would quickly be established, were the Australian government to capitulate.

I would bet that an Australian Unionist militia would engender the sympathies of many Australians (perhaps most) at least for the first 10 to 20 years.

And I would bet that a Unionist militia would be capable of inflicting, and would without much hesitation inflict, atrocities for the greater good of making Australia whole again.

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #99 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:03pm
 
Grendel,

Quote:
We've been over the Palestine thing aboo and you admitted you lied, were wrong incorrect...  ok


Umm, no actually I just let you claim another hollow victory, because you obviously didn't understand the basic concepts involved. ie. that there was no Arab nationalities prior to the arrival of the British, Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian whatever.

Quote:
The Mandate palestine was created by the Brits.
It is now mostly Jordan.


The British mandate consisted of both Palestine and Transjordan, that land which was west of the jordan and that which was east of it, respectively, please go and do some research.

Quote:
there were no Palestinians b4 then


There were people living there. That's akin to dividing Australia up into littlle countries, the one south of the Murray being known as Yarraland, and claiming there never was any Yarralanders all throughout history, what a nonsensical argument. Just like there are Victorians, there were always people who lived in the Sanjack of al-Quds (ie. the Ottoman name of the province that became known as Palestine, under British mandate and today as Israel)

Quote:
The tribes that inhabited the area from way back were not only Muslims.


Not only, but largely.

Quote:
BTW Muslims are a much more recent arrival.


They are? When did they arrive? My history shows me Muslims arrived about 1300 years ago... Guess it depends on what you mean by recent.

Quote:
Hence the Jews/hebrews whatever you want to call them have as much right to be there.


The last Ottoman census, taken in the late 1890's show the Jews to be no more than 2% of the population. Do 2% of the population of a country have a right to expel the majority and turn it into their own racially based state?

Funny, because in our other discussions where the tables are turned, you don't think the 2% minorities have any right to even have their own culture, let alone to expel anyone who doesn't belong to it. You know Muslims are about 2% of Australia's population... Do we have the same rights to do in Australia what you seem to think the Jews had to do in Palestine?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #100 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:05pm
 
So India is a puppet of the UK as well as the middle east? The British actually wanted to move out, but couldn't figure out how until Ghandi came along and showed them the way?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #101 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:06pm
 
It would depend on how the new bosses behaved, surely?

If they banned alcohol in queensland or the northern territory, well then they would be like the quadriplegic who fell off the boat. Well and Truly.

Some things ARE worth fighting for. Grin
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #102 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:09pm
 
oh dear...  where is 75% of the mandate of palestine?

that's right in Jordan.

Is Jordan an arabic Muslim state?
Are "palestinians" arabic Muslims?

rotflmao..

Now when did the Muslim religion start?
uh huh..

and how long has the jewish religion been in existence...  how many thousands of years?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #103 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:05pm:
So India is a puppet of the UK as well as the middle east? The British actually wanted to move out, but couldn't figure out how until Ghandi came along and showed them the way?

It was cut and run. Churchill despised Gandhi and were it not for the fact that India was capable and prepared to blast a crippled Britain off the sub continent, he would no more have seen the Gandhian light than give up drinking.

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #104 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:13pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:06pm:
Some things ARE worth fighting for. Grin


And would be fought for.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #105 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:14pm
 

I take it by that 'brief' response Grendel, you admit you're wayy out of your depth?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #106 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:15pm
 
So what you are saying is that India succeeded because they reigned in the loonies and took a pacifist approach, even though they had significant military capabilities? Is that why it is a good strategy for Muslims to let their lunatics loose to stir up the enemy?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #107 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:26pm
 
rotflmao

Ok Abboo...  let me EDUCATE YOU

I did my study many years ago.

THE BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE INCLUDES WHAT YOU CALL PALESTINE AND TRANSJORDAN...  Oh dear...  you've been defeated again.
SYRIA WAS A FRENCH MANDATE TO THE NORTH.
OTHER BORDERS; THE MEDITERRANEAN, IRAQ, ARABIA AND EGYPT.

OH AND IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW... JUDAISM IS AT LEAST 4000 YEARS OLD.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #108 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:15pm:
So what you are saying is that India succeeded because they reigned in the loonies and took a pacifist approach, even though they had significant military capabilities? Is that why it is a good strategy for Muslims to let their lunatics loose to stir up the enemy?

Why fight when the Brits were getting ready to cut and run anyway? As for Gandhi, the British would not have given a damn who ran the country after they left (which was Nehru). Gandhi couldn't stop the cynical partition of the sub-continent, despite his pleas and speeches and hunger strikes. He was treated with contempt by Roosevelt who saw him as jeopardising the allied war effort.
Gandhi was an old man by the end of the Raj. He was hardly a great political force by then. His myth and hagiography have grown without relent since his death. The Indians love deifying great souls.


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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #109 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:28pm
 
LOL
just noticed your snide ignorant little remark Aboo...  
you don't know me very well do you?
guess what...  the day you know more than me hell will freeze over.

I'll flood the site with more real info than you can poke a stick at if needs be to show how ignorant and deluded you really are.  just try me.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #110 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:34pm
 
Grendel wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:28pm:
LOL
just noticed your snide ignorant little remark Aboo...  
you don't know me very well do you?
guess what...  the day you know more than me hell will freeze over.

I'll flood the site with more real info than you can poke a stick at if needs be to show how ignorant and deluded you really are.  just try me.


lol...all you know hey. I guess we can set aside one post for all that knowledge...or lack of.

Mate..Abu has made you look the fool that you are, and being a grade A dumb ass, you don't even realise how foolish you are beginning to look.

You see...thats the beauty of it, you actually believe that you are smart. BWAHAHA.

You actually think you are 'defeating' abu...when really, it is you that is being made to look second rate and foolish.

Please....keep it up Grendal, no one could possibly dream of making you look as foolish as you have done youself.

Cheesy:D
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #111 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:38pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:34pm:
lol...all you know hey. I guess we can set aside one post for all that knowledge...or lack of.

Mate..Abu has made you look the fool that you are, and being a grade A dumb ass, you don't even realise how foolish you are beginning to look.

You see...thats the beauty of it, you actually believe that you are smart. BWAHAHA.

You actually think you are 'defeating' abu...when really, it is you that is being made to look second rate and foolish.

Please....keep it up Grendal, no one could possibly dream of making you look as foolish as you have done youself.


Oooo thems fighting words Lestat. You don't know Grendel like we know Grendel.

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #112 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:46pm
 

Quote:
THE BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE INCLUDES WHAT YOU CALL PALESTINE AND TRANSJORDAN...  Oh dear...  you've been defeated again.


Umm, actually that's what I stated: "The British mandate consisted of both Palestine and Transjordan", I defeated myself?

I'm still at a loss to understand what it has to do with the discussion of Palestine? Transjordan became Jordan, Palestine became Israel... Hint, the second part is what's relevant, not the first part.

Quote:
SYRIA WAS A FRENCH MANDATE TO THE NORTH


Again, I don't see what this has to do with Palestine?

Quote:
JUDAISM IS AT LEAST 4000 YEARS OLD.


That's quite debatable. The first usage of the term Yehudim (to refer to the Jewish people even, not their religion) was in the Book of Esther, which is dated to about the 3rd or 4th century B.C

2400 years is the oldest record we have of a people calling themselves  collectively Yehudim (Jews), beyond that is nothing but speculation.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #113 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:50pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:38pm:
Lestat wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:34pm:
lol...all you know hey. I guess we can set aside one post for all that knowledge...or lack of.

Mate..Abu has made you look the fool that you are, and being a grade A dumb ass, you don't even realise how foolish you are beginning to look.

You see...thats the beauty of it, you actually believe that you are smart. BWAHAHA.

You actually think you are 'defeating' abu...when really, it is you that is being made to look second rate and foolish.

Please....keep it up Grendal, no one could possibly dream of making you look as foolish as you have done youself.


Oooo thems fighting words Lestat. You don't know Grendel like we know Grendel.



I don't really care how you know him Helian...but you must agree...really, Abu has made him look foolish in this thread, and he is to thick to realise it...he keeps; coming back for more.

I realised at the start of this thread that Grendal could offer nothing to this debate, hence I walked away. I've got better things to do then waste my time with red neck yobbo's...but I have enjoyed watching Abu expose Grendel's stupidity time and time again. And like I said, the beauty of it is, Grendel doesn't even know it.

Back he'll come with some unwitty statement, thinking that he's somehow clever, yet without realising how stupid he is appearing.

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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #114 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 1:00pm
 
hey aboo...  you could only afford to bring along one Cheer-girl???

Aboo  I suggest b4 you carry on any more you go look at some maps of the British mandate of Palestine...  then you can apologise or slink away or whatever you think best.

Oh and lestat...  only the very foolish or ignorant or in your case probably both would think Aboo knows what he's talking about on this.  He's already conceeded on another he was wrong about it.   Grin
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #115 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 1:02pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:50pm:
I don't really care how you know him Helian...but you must agree...really, Abu has made him look foolish in this thread, and he is to thick to realise it...he keeps; coming back for more.

I realised at the start of this thread that Grendal could offer nothing to this debate, hence I walked away. I've got better things to do then waste my time with red neck yobbo's...but I have enjoyed watching Abu expose Grendel's stupidity time and time again. And like I said, the beauty of it is, Grendel doesn't even know it.

Fair enough.

I don't know in what capacity you know Abu, but maybe if you choose not to add to the debate that also think about not just being a cheerleader for him... somehow I don't think Abu needs it as much as you're willing to offer it.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #116 - Oct 20th, 2008 at 1:06pm
 
Is there a contradiction between the hadith that commands Muslims to hide the faults of other Muslims, and other hadiths that promote justice?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #117 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 3:04pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 10:13pm:
Also, at least in the Northern Ireland conflict, it was admitted both sides were committing violence, the Republican militias and the Protestant paramilitaries (along with the English army at times). Yet in the conflicts between Muslims and the West, the Muslims are cast as the only aggressors, and the West are just the benign good-natured superpower, who tries so hard to practise self-restraint, yet occasionally has to resort to some military actions, but only after being heavily provoked and attacked of course.. And then regrettably, they happen to kill about 100-200 times more civilians as the other side did, but they immediately make press releases stating that it was not on purpose, or even rejecting that it even occured, or playing down the numbers.

Surely you can see why Muslims would reject engaging in any kind of condemn/blame game in such a climate? The West can't even admit they've done anything, let alone condemn it as being wrong.

Not to mention the fact that most Islamic militant groups are purely defensive, resisting occupation in their own countries to expel foreign invaders... whilst in almost every single case, the West are the invaders, chasing energy resources and regional hegemony etc.


First up, in northern Ireland both groups were engaging in terrorism. That is not the case currently. There were no American terrorists funding their own trip to the middle east to target large numbers of civilians. In both the current conflicts, there were two distuinguishable 'battles'. One was between the US army and the Afghan or Iraq regular army. The other was the battle to round up the loonies and let the locals regain effective self governance. The fact that the west is the invader is not a sign that they are more agressive, just that they are more powerful. Do you really expect us to believe that a powerful Caliphate in a position of lone superpower would not be far more agressive?

Islamic militant groups are not purely defensive. 9/11 was not a defensive act. This is skewed logic whereby if you have any kind of grievance, you can label all sorts of offensive acts as defensive.

Democracy is not hegemony.
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freediver
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #118 - Oct 15th, 2017 at 8:32am
 
Gandalf hope you don't mind me replying here. I think this is not really about Bronwyn Bishop any more.

As I recall Gandalf spent more time defending Abu or pretending he didn't exist. Now it turns out Gandalf was one of Abu's biggest critics. He trashes Abu without saying why, but if anyone else makes a specific criticism of Abu, Gandalf automatically leaps to Abu's defence and accuses them of lying.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 11:36am:
FD you were in about your 5th year of trolling Falah and Abu and shoving words down their mouth by the time I joined the board.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 3:22pm:
FD I've made my opinion on Abu very clear.

I detest pretty much everything he stands for, and his version of Islam is completely alien to mine. 


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 3:12pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 8:16pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 1:04pm:
Quote:
Quote:
The fact is I have never defended Abu's backward and misguided views, and I have regularly criticised them. But it doesn't change the fact that you routinely make crap up about people - not just Abu, and I will and have called you out on these fabrications.


Can you give an example of either?


I'm pretty sure this will qualify:

freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 8:39am:
Quote:
If ever we have proof of your racist construction of a muslim mindless collective - this is it. You simply have to maintain this absurd fantasy of muslim A having some mystical impulse to "reflexively"support and defend Muslim B.


No Gandalf. It's an Islamic principle that Abu explained for us.



I believe he even had an Arabic term for it.


Please enlighten us FD - if you can.


Like it or lump it Gandalf:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:29pm:
Quote:
abu - you dont blieve ANYTHING untoward said about ANY muslim EVER.


Generally, no, I don't. I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.


freediver wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 6:26pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:42am:
Quote:
Could you elbaborate on this 'Islamic etiquette' please Abu?


The first rule is to extend to a Muslim the benefit of the doubt


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 8:02pm:
Quote:
Every single post of yours is riddled with bias and bigotry, which you yourself recently have admitted


Yes, i can admit I am biased towards Islam


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:20pm:
Also it can be further understood by supporting hadiths such as this one:

"Whosoever conceals the faults of a Muslim, Allah will conceal his faults in this world and the Hereafter. Allah will aid a servant (of His) so long as the servant aids his brother."


Falah getting in on the act:

falah wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 10:50pm:
Soren wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 10:43pm:
falah wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 10:07pm:
Avram Horowitz wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 9:31pm:
The religion that stones to death 13 year old girls for being raped by allow men to sex with animals.

I agree with Amnesty International that there is barbaric atrocities in Islam occurring.


Why do you agree with that disputed Amnesty International report, but not the ones saying Israel committed war crimes like killing 300 Palestinian children?


Why do you agree with AI when it condemns Israel but not when it condemns Muslims?


I would take the word of the Hamas Government before I took the word of Amnest International.

The Hamas Government have documented Israel's war crimes. One day, Israelis will be held accountable for their war crimes.


Gandalf, are you able to make any specific criticisms of Abu's interpretation of Islam? Or do you just trash him vaguely because you know he is a lost cause, but then look for any way to defend him on the details? If you really do "detest everything he stands for", why do you automatically leap to his defence on something as (relatively) innocuous as Islamic etiquette, to the point of baselessly accusing people of lying over something you are obviously unaware of?
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #119 - Oct 15th, 2017 at 11:30am
 
FD, are you trying to make a point of some kind here? If so, it's indecipherable.

Also, if you're going to quote old debates with Abu, it might help to post ones where he doesn't royally hand you your bottom.

Abu might have been a devious old crank, but he was cunning, and he knew his stuff.

Remember, it was Abu waltzing all over your arguments that made you "change your mind".
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #120 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 9:36am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 15th, 2017 at 8:32am:
Gandalf, are you able to make any specific criticisms of Abu's interpretation of Islam? Or do you just trash him vaguely because you know he is a lost cause, but then look for any way to defend him on the details? If you really do "detest everything he stands for", why do you automatically leap to his defence on something as (relatively) innocuous as Islamic etiquette, to the point of baselessly accusing people of lying over something you are obviously unaware of?


Thanks for the thread. Interesting read.

Now that I've read it, I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt - you're probably not lying about what Abu said, I think you are just genuinely that clueless.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #121 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 9:42am
 
By the way FD, I don't think I caught the "arabic term" for it - did I miss it?

Or did the idea pop into your head as you were convincing yourself that what Abu was describing was a uniquely 'Islamic' thing - even as he spent 8 pages strenuously rejecting the idea?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #122 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 9:50am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 15th, 2017 at 11:30am:
Also, if you're going to quote old debates with Abu, it might help to post ones where he doesn't royally hand you your bottom.



he must have really gotten burned to still be quoting him 9 years later.  Grin Grin Grin
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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #123 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 9:58am
 
John Smith wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 9:50am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 15th, 2017 at 11:30am:
Also, if you're going to quote old debates with Abu, it might help to post ones where he doesn't royally hand you your bottom.



he must have really gotten burned to still be quoting him 9 years later.  Grin Grin Grin


This thread is a masterclass in someone spending pages (in this case 8) not able or not willing to understand a fairly simple and patiently articulated point.

Still, it is refreshing to read a less sneering and less obnoxious FD. I guess the transformation into the sad caricature he is now was fairly gradual.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #124 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 11:28am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 9:58am:
John Smith wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 9:50am:
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 15th, 2017 at 11:30am:
Also, if you're going to quote old debates with Abu, it might help to post ones where he doesn't royally hand you your bottom.



he must have really gotten burned to still be quoting him 9 years later.  Grin Grin Grin


This thread is a masterclass in someone spending pages (in this case 8) not able or not willing to understand a fairly simple and patiently articulated point.

Still, it is refreshing to read a less sneering and less obnoxious FD. I guess the transformation into the sad caricature he is now was fairly gradual.


FD changed his mind.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #125 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 12:12pm
 
Don't you see that this principle is at the heart of the Islamic victimhood complex? It is a recipe for collective mass self delusion. Automatically giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt inevitably introduces a consistent bias. It means looking uncritically at whatever spin your fellow Muslims feed you, while not doing this for non-Muslims. It is entirely consistent with Muslims making absolute shitholes of their own countries while blaming all their problems on the infidel.

Abu was great at this. According to him, every problem faced by backwards Muslim countries had nothing to do with Islam or backwards Muslims doing backwards things. It could be traced back to some historical interference by the evil west. I believe Gandalf used to spin a lot of this sort of BS in his early days.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #126 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 12:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 12:12pm:
Abu was great at this. According to him, every problem faced by backwards Muslim countries had nothing to do with Islam or backwards Muslims doing backwards things.


You probably missed Abu's response, FD. An easy mistake to make.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:42am:
Quote:
Does it cause the Muslim community to blame external factors for their problems while failing to 'get their own house in order'?


Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation. Doesn't mean we for instance won't name the perpetrators of clear agressions against us, but is that really blaming? I don't think so.

In fact the Islamic texts are full of statements which clearly show that the one who does not find good in this world should blame his own self.

"Whoever finds some good, let him praise Allah, and whoever finds other than that, let him blame his own self"

However this has nothing to do with for instance recognising Sharon as the instigator of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, or the Irgun and Stern gangs for the numerous massacres and ethnic cleansing that occured during the occupation of Palestinian villages, or the USA of invading Muslim countries and supplying Israel with weapons to fire on Muslim civilians constantly... We blame ourselves for our clear failure to prevent it, but recognising the aggressor is not blaming them.


You asked Abu a supplementary. You must have missed the answer to that one too.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:20pm:
Quote:
So western interference isn't really to blame for all the problems in the middle east?


As I mentioned, the West is not to blame. as a Muslim, I cannot claim that it wasn't my fault the Muslims in Palestine for instance were ethnically  cleansed, it was the fault of the British/Zionists. This excuse will avail me nothing on the day of judgement. However, that's different to identifying the perpetrator of crimes. As an example, the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, is the fault of the Muslims for becoming weak and allowing it to happen. The West tried for centuries and could not enter the Muslim lands, and only entered when we permitted them, through our weak faith and lack of political understanding and military resolve.

Your position on this issue is skewed. In effect you're trying to say that Sharon for instance is not responsible for the crimes he committed against the Muslims, or that the USA or the USSR were not responsible for their invasions of Afghanistan and countless other Muslim lands. You have confused apportioning blame for a failure, and recognising the perpetrator of an atrocity. They are two completely different issues.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #127 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 3:20pm
 
Normally my jaw would drop hearing someone accuse someone of saying literally the exact opposite of what they very clearly and explicitly said.

But then this is FD...
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #128 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 3:30pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 3:20pm:
Normally my jaw would drop hearing someone accuse someone of saying literally the exact opposite of what they very clearly and explicitly said.

But then this is FD...


Fair's fair, G.

freediver wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 12:31pm:
Sure. Let's start with quoting what I actually said. Or would you prefer to focus on your lies about what I said? Or your lies about the Koran? Are Muslims supposed to lie about the Koran Gandalf? If caught out in an unintentional lie, are they supposed to furiously change the topic in the hope that no-one notices?


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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #129 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 3:56pm
 
Quote:
If caught out in an unintentional lie, are they supposed to furiously change the topic in the hope that no-one notices?


uncanny
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #130 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 4:00pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 3:56pm:
Quote:
If caught out in an unintentional lie, are they supposed to furiously change the topic in the hope that no-one notices?


uncanny


He did say unintentional, you know.

Perhaps FD just makes a lot of mistakes.

As Abu says, "whoever finds some good, let him praise Allah, and whoever finds other than that, let him blame his own self".
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #131 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 6:13pm
 
Quote:
You probably missed Abu's response, FD. An easy mistake to make.


He did not blame the backwardness of Muslim countries on backwards Muslims doing backwards things. He blamed it on their weak faith and lack of military resolve. That is, he blamed it on them not being backwards enough. If they had only continued to raid Europe and Africa for sex slaves and fought of the western intervention aimed at putting an end to this, everything would be fine.

Gandalf for example blames the wealth of western countries and the poverty of African and middle eastern countries on the wealth stolen from them by the west. He cannot conceive that the wealth was created internally via the economic freedoms that westerners won for themselves, and the poverty of Muslim nations is due to the Islamic oppression. Instead, he thinks that the economic freedoms enjoyed by the west are little luxuries we can only afford because we are stealing so much from the tinpot dictatorships.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #132 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 7:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 6:13pm:
Quote:
You probably missed Abu's response, FD. An easy mistake to make.


He did not blame the backwardness of Muslim countries on backwards Muslims doing backwards things. He blamed it on their weak faith and lack of military resolve. That is, he blamed it on them not being backwards enough. If they had only continued to raid Europe and Africa for sex slaves and fought of the western intervention aimed at putting an end to this, everything would be fine.

Gandalf for example blames the wealth of western countries and the poverty of African and middle eastern countries on the wealth stolen from them by the west. He cannot conceive that the wealth was created internally via the economic freedoms that westerners won for themselves, and the poverty of Muslim nations is due to the Islamic oppression. Instead, he thinks that the economic freedoms enjoyed by the west are little luxuries we can only afford because we are stealing so much from the tinpot dictatorships.


Whereas you think Uncle and Mother brought the tinted races democracy and never had slavery.

Rich tapestry, innit.
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Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #133 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 7:07pm
 
FD,  I'm curious, I don't think I've ever heard you speak out against Uncle or Mother. Do you share Abu's attitude towards criticizing his fellow Muslims?
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