Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 9
Send Topic Print
Islamic etiquette (Read 27724 times)
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 35310
At my desk.
Islamic etiquette
Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:07am
 
From the militant Islamics thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1223522110/156#156

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:29pm:
sprint,

Quote:
abu - you dont blieve ANYTHING untoward said about ANY muslim EVER.


Generally, no, I don't. I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.


Could you elbaborate on this 'Islamic etiquette' please Abu? Is it a cultural thing or is it derived from doctrine? Does it apply to all muslims when they are in a disagreement with a non-muslim? What if there are two muslims in a disagreement and one seems to be more 'devout' (eg a cleric vs a rebellious teenager)?

Does it contribute to the inability of the Muslim community to root out terrorists and extremists?

Does it undermine justice where it is combined with a legal system that considers the testimony of a non-Muslim to be inferior?

Does it cause the Muslim community to blame external factors for their problems while failing to 'get their own house in order'?
Back to top
 

Ayers rock - the first casualty of climb-it change.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Lestat
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1403
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #1 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:17am
 
Thats quite a number of loaded questions there FD.

Makes you wonder....why ask questions when you already have formed your answers...from your pre-concieved idea's.

Really, I am unsure why Abu even bothers...he has far more patience then I.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
jordan484
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Genuine Aussie

Posts: 1115
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #2 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:31am
 
Quote:
I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette


I think this statement is worth exploring in detail. Don't you, lestat? It may explain an awful lot about why there is such distrust of muslims by non-muslims and vise versa.
Back to top
 

"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
IP Logged
 
abu_rashid
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #3 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 9:42am
 

Quote:
Could you elbaborate on this 'Islamic etiquette' please Abu?


The first rule is to extend to a Muslim the benefit of the doubt, and in fact this goes for all cases of accusations, innocent until proven guilty, I'm sure there's a similar legal concept in the West, is there not?  Media reports and accusations in tabloids don't amount to proof of guilt

Quote:
Is it a cultural thing or is it derived from doctrine?


If it were cultural, I wouldn't be supporting it, would I? I only support those things derived directly from Islamic teachings, I couldn't care less about Arab cultural practises, or Indian cultural practises, or Indonesian cultural practises, or Albanian cultural practises etc.

It is indeed enshrined in the Islamic texts:

Narrated by Anas Ibn Malik (ra), the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Support your brother if he is the oppresser or the oppressed", it was asked: "O Messenger of Allaah: (we understand about) supporting him when he is oppressed, so how do we support him when he is the oppresser?" He (pbuh) said: "Restrain him from oppressing (anyone), for that is supporting your brother."

Quote:
What if there are two muslims in a disagreement and one seems to be more 'devout' (eg a cleric vs a rebellious teenager)?


As per the above hadith, you must support the one who is oppressing (wrong) by restraining him. As  mentioned numerous times (to you fd) before, there's no such thing as an "Islamic cleric". The most knowledgeable scholar has no special right over the most jahil teenager.

Quote:
Does it contribute to the inability of the Muslim community to root out terrorists and extremists?


The vast majority of extremists and terrorists in this world are on your side of the fence, and I don't see you doing anything to 'root them out', in fact they're running the show and are causing bloodshed and mayhem all over the Islamic world and have been doing so for about a century now... You should look in your own backyard, and then sling  mud at Muslims, once you've completely cleaned it out.

Quote:
Does it undermine justice where it is combined with a legal system that considers the testimony of a non-Muslim to be inferior?


No, as it's not a pretext for lying or falsifying information. In fact we only even stumbled into this subject because I was pointing out how easily people are prepared to accept any accusation brought against a Muslim.

Quote:
Does it cause the Muslim community to blame external factors for their problems while failing to 'get their own house in order'?


Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation. Doesn't mean we for instance won't name the perpetrators of clear agressions against us, but is that really blaming? I don't think so.

In fact the Islamic texts are full of statements which clearly show that the one who does not find good in this world should blame his own self.

"Whoever finds some good, let him praise Allah, and whoever finds other than that, let him blame his own self"

However this has nothing to do with for instance recognising Sharon as the instigator of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, or the Irgun and Stern gangs for the numerous massacres and ethnic cleansing that occured during the occupation of Palestinian villages, or the USA of invading Muslim countries and supplying Israel with weapons to fire on Muslim civilians constantly... We blame ourselves for our clear failure to prevent it, but recognising the aggressor is not blaming them.
Back to top
 
abu_rashid  
IP Logged
 
jordan484
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Genuine Aussie

Posts: 1115
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #4 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:19am
 
Quote:
You should look in your own backyard

There are terrorists in my backyard!?

EVERYBODY RUN!!!!!
Back to top
 

"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 35310
At my desk.
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #5 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:15pm
 
I'm sure there's a similar legal concept in the West, is there not?

There is not one that says only a certain group of people should be extended fair treatement.

Narrated by Anas Ibn Malik (ra), the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Support your brother if he is the oppresser or the oppressed", it was asked: "O Messenger of Allaah: (we understand about) supporting him when he is oppressed, so how do we support him when he is the oppresser?" He (pbuh) said: "Restrain him from oppressing (anyone), for that is supporting your brother."

I don't see how restraining someone from opressing and extending them the benefit of the doubt, or always thinking good of them, are the same thing. Your interpretation of this hadith sounds more like turning a blind eye to their oppression.

Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.

So western interference isn't really to blame for all the problems in the middle east?
Back to top
 

Ayers rock - the first casualty of climb-it change.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #6 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:16pm
 
ROTFLMAO

Quote:
Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.


Sorry. took me ages to stop laughing at that one.
You were joking... right?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lestat
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1403
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #7 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:36pm
 
Grendel wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:16pm:
ROTFLMAO

Quote:
Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.


Sorry. took me ages to stop laughing at that one.
You were joking... right?


Simple minds are amused by simple things.....
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
jordan484
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Genuine Aussie

Posts: 1115
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #8 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:38pm
 
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?
Back to top
 

"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
IP Logged
 
Lestat
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1403
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #9 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:15pm
 
jordan484 wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:38pm:
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?


No...only the dopey ones. Unfortunately for you......well, I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Smiley
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ex-member DonaldTrump
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Oh mere mortals, open
your eyes!

Posts: 1995
Overseas
Gender: male
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #10 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:16pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:36pm:
Grendel wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:16pm:
ROTFLMAO

Quote:
Actually if you had a more sincere dialogue with Muslims, I think you'd find we don't blame anyone but our ownselves for our situation.


Sorry. took me ages to stop laughing at that one.
You were joking... right?


Simple minds are amused by simple things.....


I must have a VERY simple mind then.
Back to top
 

Quote:
Tolerance is the virtue of men who no longer believe in anything
&&-- G.K. Chesterton
 
IP Logged
 
jordan484
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Genuine Aussie

Posts: 1115
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #11 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:19pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:15pm:
jordan484 wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:38pm:
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?


No...only the dopey ones. Unfortunately for you......well, I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Smiley

Based on your abuse, I'd say you think everyone here who is a non-muslim is "dopey". That's a mighty strange coincidence isn't it?
Back to top
 

"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
IP Logged
 
abu_rashid
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #12 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:20pm
 
Quote:
There is not one that says only a certain group of people should be extended fair treatement.


That wasn't implied in the original issue (ie. whether OBM should be condemned based merely on accusations made by british tabloids) nor was it implied in my answer, why you've resorted to such points is beyond me. In case it wasn't clear, my statement "and in fact this goes for all cases of accusations, innocent until proven guilty" means that all people are to be given the benefit of the doubt in Islamic law, there's no assumption of guilt, there's assumption of innocence. But as usual, you want to twist and turn everything until you think you found something wrong... It's really a rather tiring dialogue.

Quote:
I don't see how restraining someone from opressing and extending them the benefit of the doubt, or always thinking good of them, are the same thing.


Well you're only taking half of the hadith. The initial statement is "support your brother", the restraining part is just a further explanation of how that support is to materialise in the case that he is an oppressor. Doesn't mean he should be abandoned, falsely accused, slandered, simply because a british tabloid has claimed something  about him

Also it can be further understood by supporting hadiths such as this one:

"Whosoever conceals the faults of a Muslim, Allah will conceal his faults in this world and the Hereafter. Allah will aid a servant (of His) so long as the servant aids his brother."


Quote:
Your interpretation of this hadith sounds more like turning a blind eye to their oppression.


Just to make it quite clear, I don't have an interpretation. Any interpretation I relay to you is that of the classical Islamic scholars, or the companions of Muhammad (pbuh).

Quote:
So western interference isn't really to blame for all the problems in the middle east?


As I mentioned, the West is not to blame. as a Muslim, I cannot claim that it wasn't my fault the Muslims in Palestine for instance were ethnically  cleansed, it was the fault of the British/Zionists. This excuse will avail me nothing on the day of judgement. However, that's different to identifying the perpetrator of crimes. As an example, the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, is the fault of the Muslims for becoming weak and allowing it to happen. The West tried for centuries and could not enter the Muslim lands, and only entered when we permitted them, through our weak faith and lack of political understanding and military resolve.

Your position on this issue is skewed. In effect you're trying to say that Sharon for instance is not responsible for the crimes he committed against the Muslims, or that the USA or the USSR were not responsible for their invasions of Afghanistan and countless other Muslim lands. You have confused apportioning blame for a failure, and recognising the perpetrator of an atrocity. They are two completely different issues.
Back to top
 
abu_rashid  
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 34009
Gender: male
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #13 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:22pm
 
based on the moderators here, they are ok with whatever lestat says.

anyone else has to watch their "p"s and "q"s


typical cult members.
Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
abu_rashid
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353
Re: Islamic etiquette
Reply #14 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:26pm
 
Quote:
Is it Islamic etiquette to pick on every single poster you may not agree with?


This coming from the person who's never engaged in a single word of sincere dialogue with a Muslim. Every single one of your posts to or about a Muslim or Islam is riddled with hostility, snide remarks, abuse and general insincerity.

You have some hide asking a Muslim to adhere to any kind of etiquette when dealing with you. You deserve none!
Back to top
 
abu_rashid  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 9
Send Topic Print