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No wonder islamics are militant (Read 55842 times)
locutius
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #150 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 4:44pm
 
Yadda wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 2:30pm:
Lestat wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 1:13pm:
jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 1:08pm:
Yes, I think that democracy needs to come from within, if it is to come at all.

And the Quran clealy states "[b]
There is no co-ercion in religon'. No one should be forced to practise any religon, or particular beliefs, and according to the teachings of my religon...no one is.
[/b]






from Koran,

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."


Hadith

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

From ISLAMIC law texts....

. Whoever leaves one of them BECOMES AN UNBELIEVER and HIS BLOOD MAY LEGALLY BE SPILLED. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."....





These certainly seem to be a contradiction to my mind. Gaybriel do you want to have a go at clearing this up?
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freediver
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #151 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 4:55pm
 
It means you cannot force someone to become a Muslim, but once they are, you 'own' them. While you cannot force them, you can give them all sorts of incentives, like legal and tax discrimination. Technically there is no coercian, but in practice there is.

Abu, what are your thoughts on that UK cleric misleading the British people?
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« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:04pm by freediver »  

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abu_rashid
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #152 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:15pm
 

Do you mean Omar Bakri Muhammad?

There are a lot of propaganda reports about him. A few weeks ago he was in the extremism exposed forum because his daughter is supposedly a pole dancer, according to trashy british tabloids anyway.

Unless I see it from his own mouth, I'd be skeptical about it. The British definitely have an agenda when it comes to him, and want to trash his name.
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #153 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:17pm
 
Would the youtube video suffice?
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jordan484
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #154 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:21pm
 
Quote:
Ironic, escpecially considering that it is in fact western secualar nations which are imposing their beliefs onto muslim countries.

Below is just one example of what I'm talking about. Muslims in western countries starting to force their belief system on non-Muslims. Give 'em an inch......

"Councillors have been ordered not to eat during town hall meetings while Muslim colleagues fast during the holy month of Ramadan.
All elected members at Left-wing Tower Hamlets Council in East London have been sent an email asking them to follow strict Islamic fasting during September no matter what their faith.
As well as restricting food and drink until after sunset, the authority's leaders have decided to reduce the number of meetings throughout the month so they do not clash with the requirements of Ramadan."

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/08/uk-ramadan-imposed-on-non-muslim.htm...
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #155 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:21pm
 
abu - you dont blieve ANYTHING untoward said about ANY muslim EVER.

everythings always the jjjooos fault.

you accept no responsibiity whatsoever.
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abu_rashid
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #156 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:29pm
 
freediver, suffice for what?

But sure, post the link, I'll review it and share my thoughts.

sprint,

Quote:
abu - you dont blieve ANYTHING untoward said about ANY muslim EVER.


Generally, no, I don't. I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.

I certainly don't run around proclaiming guilt of my fellow Muslims just based on a propaganda media report, which often enough we've found them to be completely or partially fabricated. To suggest I should do as suxch is just ridiculous, but doesn't surprise me coming from the likes of you.

Quote:
everythings always the jjjooos fault.


Is it? Are you basing this on something you've seen me say? Or are you just parroting soren (even in your 'cool' spelling  Grin )
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jordan484
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #157 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:36pm
 
Quote:
I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.


And here's the basic problem in all it's simplicity.
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Lestat
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #158 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:54pm
 
jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:21pm:
"Councillors have been ordered not to eat during town hall meetings while Muslim colleagues fast during the holy month of Ramadan.
All elected members at Left-wing Tower Hamlets Council in East London have been sent an email asking them to follow strict Islamic fasting during September no matter what their faith.
As well as restricting food and drink until after sunset, the authority's leaders have decided to reduce the number of meetings throughout the month so they do not clash with the requirements of Ramadan."

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/08/uk-ramadan-imposed-on-non-muslim.htm...


Really Jordan...could you have found a more credible site?

Anyway...ordered by whom? Muslims? I didn't think that we exert that sort of power. Well clearly from the article, the order never came from muslims.

From the article...

"But some members of the Labour-run council say the demands favour one religious group over the others."

"In the memo to councillors, John Williams, the council's head of democratic services, said: 'It is requested that members do not partake of any refreshments until after the Iftar refreshments are served.'

Council bosses said the arrangements were in place 'where it is not reasonable to expect members observing Ramadan, and who are required to attend a formal committee or other meeting, to travel home in time for sundown in order to break fast and undertake prayers'."


So the council is Labour run, so unless you know otherwise, and Im sure you agee that John Williams doesn't sound like a muslim name.

And interestingly enough.....also from the article (the parts you didn't post).

"And it has also staged a Bonfire Night party which featured a Bengal tiger instead of Guy Fawkes."

Bengal tiger...bonfire? Doesn't sound Islamic to me. Obviously this council has catered to other cultures and beliefs besides Islam.

There is nothing in that article that indicates that 'muslims are enforcing their beliefs onto others.

I suspect that this was a decision made by a council which wished to show respect for muslim beliefs. This view is supported in the article by the following paragraphs.

Controversy has arisen because all members have been told not to eat until after sunset, out of courtesy to their Muslim colleagues, and so there will be food left for them later in the evening.

In the memo to councillors, John Williams, the council's head of democratic services, said: 'It is requested that members do not partake of any refreshments until after the Iftar refreshments are served.'

Council bosses said the arrangements were in place 'where it is not reasonable to expect members observing Ramadan, and who are required to attend a formal committee or other meeting, to travel home in time for sundown in order to break fast and undertake prayers'.


Quite often decisions of this nature are not made by muslims, but by non-muslims wishing to show respect for other cultures. You should try it sometime.

Really though, you are well and truly scraping at the bottom of the barrel with this site.
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #159 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:54pm
 
jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:36pm:
Quote:
I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.


And here's the basic problem in all it's simplicity.


Still haven't got over that obsession I see. tsk tsk tsk.
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #160 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm
 
Quote:
Really Jordan...could you have found a more credible site?

Yeah, apologies on that one, but it just illustrated my point.

Quote:
Anyway...ordered by whom? Muslims?

Doesn't matter, the end result is still the same.

Quote:
I didn't think that we exert that sort of power.

Clearly you do if non-muslims are doing your demanding for you.

Quote:
Well clearly from the article, the order never came from muslims.

So? Your very presence is more than enough.

Quote:
So the council is Labour run, so unless you know otherwise, and Im sure you agee that John Williams doesn't sound like a muslim name.

No, it doesn't.

Quote:
And interestingly enough.....also from the article (the parts you didn't post).

I rarely post whole articles, an intro paragraph and link should be enough to start discussion.

Quote:
Bengal tiger...bonfire? Doesn't sound Islamic to me. Obviously this council has catered to other cultures and beliefs besides Islam.

Catering to a religion and the people in that religion is one thing (which I'm still not too pro on) but forcing people who are not in that religion to observe the same rules is abhorrent.

Quote:
There is nothing in that article that indicates that 'muslims are enforcing their beliefs onto others.

When non-muslims are forced to observe a muslim custom, I'd say there was plenty to indicate muslims are enforcing (by proxy or otherwise) their belief system on others.

Quote:
I suspect that this was a decision made by a council which wished to show respect for muslim beliefs.

The only way to show respect is to do as muslims do is it? Where's the respect from muslims then? You certainly wouldn't change what you do or believe for any other religion or culture why should anyone do the same for you.

Quote:
Quite often decisions of this nature are not made by muslims, but by non-muslims wishing to show respect for other cultures. You should try it sometime.

I most certainly will not. Showing respect by making allowances for people who observe these religious customs is one thing, making others adhere to them is a different thing entirely. I'm certain respect can be shown without having to partake in the same ritual or custom. That's way over the top.

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #161 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:11pm
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:54pm:
jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 6:36pm:
Quote:
I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.


And here's the basic problem in all it's simplicity.


Still haven't got over that obsession I see. tsk tsk tsk.

Likewise.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #162 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:14pm
 
yet another example of the brits rolling over.
no wonder muslims are stomping all over them.

the shining examples here of muslim intolerance, aggression, abuse and oppression are typical.
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #163 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:29pm
 
jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
Yeah, apologies on that one, but it just illustrated my point.


But thats just it...it didn't illustrate your point at all.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
Doesn't matter, the end result is still the same.


Yes it does....your post clearly highlighted the 'apparent' threat of muslims enforcing their beliefs onto others. In this example, those making the decisions were non-muslims, not muslims.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
Clearly you do if non-muslims are doing your demanding for you.


Perhaps you ought to direct your angst at the non-muslims making the decisions then.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
So? Your very presence is more than enough.


Now your really struggling.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
No, it doesn't.


Hence your point is invalid, this is not an example of muslims forcing their beliefs onto others, but non-muslims forcing muslim beliefs onto others. If you have a problem..take it up with those making the decisions.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
Catering to a religion and the people in that religion is one thing (which I'm still not too pro on) but forcing people who are not in that religion to observe the same rules is abhorrent.


Forced by non-muslims...not muslims. A decision made by non-muslims...not muslims.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
The only way to show respect is to do as muslims do is it? Where's the respect from muslims then? You certainly wouldn't change what you do or believe for any other religion or culture why should anyone do the same for you.


I don't want anyone to change their beliefs for me...so I'm not really sure what you are on about. I just spent a month fasting, plenty of my work friends would apologise for eating in front of me...I told them not to be silly, and that really the have nothing to apologise for.

So you want me to change what I believe do you....is this what its all about. Well done....once again your showing your true colors.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
I most certainly will not. Showing respect by making allowances for people who observe these religious customs is one thing, making others adhere to them is a different thing entirely. I'm certain respect can be shown without having to partake in the same ritual or custom. That's way over the top.



I have already highlighted that the fact is the allowences were ordered and made by non-muslims. Of course I don't expect you to show respect, because respect only often comes from those who are respectful...which pretty much rules you out.

Your angst in this instance is quite clearly misdirected. It was non-muslims who made these decisions, and made these orders.....not muslims...therefore, clearly, once again...you have no point.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples out there of muslims enforcing there beliefs onto others...after all, there 1.2 Billion muslims in the world, and if you look hard enough, you could probably find examples of all religons/cultures enforcing their beliefs onto others.

But unfortunately for you...the one example you did find, isnt one of those examples.
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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #164 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 7:57pm
 
Shouldn't this be in the Islam section so I dont have to read it. Im sick of all this Islamic crap, know any better web sites that are actually about politics FD.
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