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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47316 At my desk.	masturbation Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:45am From the sex with animals thread: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1223301511/51#51 Is masturbation really forbidden under Islam? What is the punishment? Is there no such think as a Muslim wanker?
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Sappho Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1406 Gender:	Re: masturbation Reply #1 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:57am I think it falls under the fornication label, which is a christian teaching also.... unless you are secular christian, inwhich case you can do anything you want, so long as you remember to ask forgiveness... which is somehow garenteed... no matter how bad you are. I suspect it is the same for secular muslims.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4230	Re: masturbation Reply #2 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 12:28pm With all environmental and social problems created by overpopulation masturbation should be encouraged. not only by religions but by secular governments as well. I don't mean organised wanking or Famous Wankers but real masturbators
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abu_rashid

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Re: masturbation
Reply #3 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 12:30pm

freediver,

Quote:

Is masturbation really forbidden under Islam?

I already answered this in the other thread. All sexual outlets beyond marriage are forbidden.

Quote:

What is the punishment?

There is no specific punishment in the dunya (this world). It would incur a ta'zeer, or light punishment of discouragement.

Quote:

Is there no such think as a Muslim wanker?

A Muslim is capable of sinning, of course. If you're relating this to the idea of there being no Muslim homosexuals, then it's a different issue. Homosexuality is a way of life, it's a choice about a certain lifestyle, which precludes one from being Muslim.

One has to question the threads you've been starting lately freediver, bestiality and now masturbation, is this all your mind is focused on? Sexual deviancy?

Sappho,

Quote:

I suspect it is the same for secular muslims.

That's an oxymoron.

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: masturbation Reply #4 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 12:38pm Quote: Homosexuality is a way of life, No it isn't. Quote: it's a choice about a certain lifestyle, No it isn't. Quote: which precludes one from being Muslim. another reason Islam is so vile
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freediver

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Re: masturbation
Reply #5 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:06pm

If you're relating this to the idea of there being no Muslim homosexuals, then it's a different issue.

How is it different?

Homosexuality is a way of life, it's a choice about a certain lifestyle, which precludes one from being Muslim.

Why is that different from masturbating? Is masturbation not a choice?

It would incur a ta'zeer, or light punishment of discouragement.

So no physical punishment, just a few words? Is it the same for bestiality?

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abu_rashid

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Re: masturbation
Reply #6 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:26pm

Quote:

How is it different?
Why is that different from masturbating? Is masturbation not a choice?

The way of life part is more relevant than the choice part, and I assume that's why you didn't respond to it.

Homosexuality is a way of life, masturbation is not (well not yet, who knows though, the way personal freedoms are taking off in the West), the choice factor relates to the way of life aspect. If someone were to commit a sexual act with someone of the same sex, that is not considered homosexuality, and is not apostasy from Islam, in and of itself. It is a sin and crime though and has it's relevant punishment (which I'm sure you know,, since you've memorised all of Islam's punishments thus far). But if someone claims themself to be a homosexual, and living a homosexual lifestyle, believing it to be a valid expression of sexual desires, then that person has apostasised and is no longer a Muslim.

Quote:

So no physical punishment, just a few words?

In the later Ottoman times, ta'zeer punishments ranged from fines and mild lashings to short prison terms.

Quote:

Is it the same for bestiality?

As I've stated on more than one occasion to you directly freediver, I've been unable to find any Islamic ruling on bestiality, indicating it probably has never been found to occur in Islamic society (Shi'a is not my business, they have their own seperate states and have done for almost 1000 years now, and as mentioned you should continue your questioning with them). But I will make a promise to you, if I ever did happen to come across a ruling on it, then you'll be the first to know, since I'm aware how much this topic interests you...

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Sappho Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1406 Gender:	Re: masturbation Reply #7 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:26pm That's an oxymoron. - Abu Rashid Then there exists oxymorons who claim themselves secular muslims.
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freediver

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Re: masturbation
Reply #8 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:52pm

If someone were to commit a sexual act with someone of the same sex, that is not considered homosexuality, and is not apostasy from Islam, in and of itself.

Didn't you say that to be punished for homosexuality, you need 4 witnesses to the act? If it is not the act itself that is homosexual, what standard is there for testimony? That is, how do they bear witness to the fact that two men are gay, and not just living together to save rent, and occasionally sinning by having sex with each other? How do you witness a choice, as opposed to an act?

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abu_rashid

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Re: masturbation
Reply #9 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 2:57pm

Sappho,

Quote:

Then there exists oxymorons who claim themselves secular muslims.

Anyone who claims themself to be a secular Muslim, has gone outside the bounds of Islam, so they're not a Muslim, and therefore I'm right in saying it is an oxymoron.

freediver,

Quote:

Didn't you say that to be punished for homosexuality, you need 4 witnesses to the act? If it is not the act itself that is homosexual, what standard is there for testimony? That is, how do they bear witness to the fact that two men are gay, and not just living together to save rent

Committing an act and living a lifestyle are two seperate things, although obviously might involve the other. From the Islamic law perspective, committing sodomy with another man is an act and a crime and a sin, it is punishable. Proclaiming to believe in a lifestyle known as 'homosexuality' is something else (although you obviously consider the two to be exactly the same), which is also a crime and sin, but it is apostasy. You might also have someone who just had the desire or urge to commit these acts, and does not act upon them, this person is not blameworthy whatsoever in fact he is rewarded. I assume you'd call all 3 cases gay/homosexual, Islamically, we would not.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47316 At my desk.	Re: masturbation Reply #10 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 3:02pm So when you say there is no such thing as a homosexual muslim, you just mean by definition? Do lifestyle homosexuals get punished, or are they excluded because they are not muslims?
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: masturbation Reply #11 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 3:14pm Quote: Do lifestyle homosexuals get punished, or are they excluded because they are not muslims? They'd be considered apostates. They just simply wouldn't exist, there's no facility to go organising mardi gras and the like. They only really exist in societies that tolerate homosexuality.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47316 At my desk.	Re: masturbation Reply #12 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 3:21pm Why wouldn't they exist? Because they'd get killed? Is masturbation considered a perversion or a deviancy?
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abu_rashid

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Re: masturbation
Reply #13 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 3:24pm

They never have in the past, so why would they now? People proclaiming a homosexual lifestyle only really exist in societies like Western societies, where they're told they are normal and they should be allowed to make parades and flaunt their despicable actions all over the place in public. In an Islamic society, this just wouldn't occur.

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: masturbation Reply #14 - Oct 9^th, 2008 at 3:24pm Quote: They'd be considered apostates. What's the penalty for that again? Quote: They just simply wouldn't exist, That's right, you hang them.....yep they wouldn't exist. Quote: They only really exist in societies that tolerate homosexuality Because we don't kill them all.
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