Australian Politics Forum - Socialism is not the answer

freediver

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #45 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 10:50am

it is a combined dictatorship of the people, the proletarians as a whole

That is not 'of the people'. That is 'of a minority with a severe superiority complex'. How would it work anyway? Would it be like a committee with 20000 people in it?

In a socialist state the state (people) would decide what it is

How so? There are a lot of jobs out there. I don't want to go through each one and try to choose a value for it. I might get it wrong.

The people also decide what value a job has in a capitalist system. It's just the mechanism that is different.

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tallowood

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #46 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 10:55am

queer wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 10:46am:

The dictatorship of the proletariat is not a dictatorship of any one man or woman, it is a combined dictatorship of the people, the proletarians as a whole. The USSR had a dictatorship of one man, Stalin.

There were whole lot of prols behind Stalin so it was the dictatorship of the proletarians.
Besides as I pointed out the historical fact is that Stalin was denounced by Kruschev in 1956 yet Union of Soviet Socialist Republics kept going.

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tallowood

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #47 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 11:01am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 10:18am:

Marx's "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a whole lot different that a selfish dictatorship like was in the USSR.

So socialism requires some kind of benign dictatorship? Isn't that a bit naive? Do you think that just because only ideologues support socialism that self interested people would stay out of the dictatorship once it gained power?

There are hundreds of possible systems that would work fine if we could rely on a benign dictatorship that knows what's really best for the ignorant fools on the street. Unfortunately there's no such thing.

Actually Marx and Lenin recognised the reality and pointed out that any state requires dictatorship e.g. a "true" democratic state is dictatorship of majority, therefore any state has tools of enforcement e.g. police and/or army of sort.

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freediver

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #48 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 11:11am

Actually Marx and Lenin recognised the reality and pointed out that any state requires dictatorship e.g. a "true" democratic state is dictatorship of majority

Something tells me these guys had a strategy of just making up new words and changing the definition of old ones. That way instead of putting together a genuine argument, you just define reality out of existence and replace it with socialism.

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tallowood

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #49 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 11:24am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 11:11am:

Actually Marx and Lenin recognised the reality and pointed out that any state requires dictatorship e.g. a "true" democratic state is dictatorship of majority

Something tells me these guys had a strategy of just making up new words and changing the definition of old ones. That way instead of putting together a genuine argument, you just define reality out of existence and replace it with socialism.

There are historical examples of democracy as a rule of majority fallen to dictatorship of minority by reason of not able to defend itself.
For example Ancient Greece who coined the very word "democracy" as well as the word "despotism". The mechanism itself can be a putsch or a revolution. More modern examples are Franco of Spain or Bolsheviks of October revolution.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47480 At my desk.	Re: Socialism is not the answer Reply #50 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:00pm Ancient Greece did not 'fall' to minority rule. That's just all they had to begin with. Hitler, and a few African countries are genuine examples. You don't need a revolution. You just need to kill anyone who disagrees with your decision not to hold another election.
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tallowood

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #51 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:13pm

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:00pm:

Ancient Greece did not 'fall' to minority rule. That's just all they had to begin with. Hitler, and a few African countries are genuine examples. You don't need a revolution. You just need to kill anyone who disagrees with your decision not to hold another election.

Ancient Greece was a conglomerate of different city states some of which never had democracy. Those who did like Athens now and then were loosing it to despots or oligarchs strong enough to take power by force.
Hitler came to power by democratic means but stayed by force.
Bolsheviks came to power by force and stayed by it.

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freediver

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #52 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:21pm

No ancient Greek cities ever had what would be considered a democracy today. Basically, only rich white men were allowed to vote. They introduced a ruling class, rather than a traditional dictatorship. The mechanism by which that class made decisions was fairly unique for such a large group. But it was still a long way from the rule of the majority. Having only a small minorty voting allowed for a far more direct democracy than we have today. But it was more like a self appointed parliament passing bills rather than an elected parliament.

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tallowood

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Re: Socialism is not the answer
Reply #53 - Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:49pm

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 12:21pm:

No ancient Greek cities ever had what would be considered a democracy today. Basically, only rich white men were allowed to vote. They introduced a ruling class, rather than a traditional dictatorship. The mechanism by which that class made decisions was fairly unique for such a large group. But it was still a long way from the rule of the majority. Having only a small minorty voting allowed for a far more direct democracy than we have today. But it was more like a self appointed parliament passing bills rather than an elected parliament.

Some say we still don't have a true democracy today as children are excluded and there are not enough parties to satisfy everyone etc. so that is not the point. This sub discussion is about dictatorship of majority of eligible voters and about means to protecting legitimate government against usurpation by minorities who can win by brutal force and/or superb organisation and control of resources.

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Revenant Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82	Re: Socialism is not the answer Reply #54 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 6:35pm Socialism to me means that the government -AKA the people- own everything. Land, businesses etc. People would still be paid extra if they had more qualifications than someone else or worked harder.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47480 At my desk.	Re: Socialism is not the answer Reply #55 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 6:55pm Who should decide how hard everybody works?
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Revenant Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82	Re: Socialism is not the answer Reply #56 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 7:20pm That'd probably be negotiated through a number of parties. Just like it is now.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47480 At my desk.	Re: Socialism is not the answer Reply #57 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 8:24pm Right now it is almost entirely between the employee and the employer. I wouldn't want a committee of bureaucrats setting my wage. Are you suggesting everyone in an industry gets the same wage, like with current union agreements?
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Revenant Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82	Re: Socialism is not the answer Reply #58 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 8:31pm I reckon there should still be awards for wages, but companies and real estate would owned by the state.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47480 At my desk.	Re: Socialism is not the answer Reply #59 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 8:37pm So within an industry, wages should be fixed?
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