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Apostasy, treason and stoning (Read 5764 times)
freediver
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Apostasy, treason and stoning
Sep 27th, 2008 at 11:19pm
 
There was some discussion here a while back about whether in Islam the penalty of death by stoning applied to apostasy, with some suggesting it only applied to treason. This is an odd claim, as you wouldn't normally confuse the two crimes.  The apparent strangeness of the claim shed some light on the issue. Islam is a state based religion, calling for a single nation governing all Muslim lands. Under such a nation, the difference between rejecting the religion and rejecting the state would become very blurred, especially to a bureaucrat. If enough people adopted a different religion, this would be a direct threat to the state, espcially if they started forming links with their co-religionists from abroad.
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freediver
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #1 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:02am
 
Abu, you said here that apostasy is a capital offence:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1223540962/6#6

Does that only apply to people who become Muslim then reject it? Or does it apply to all non-Muslims? What about people who claim to be Muslims but are considered apostates by 'the establishment'? I think you said you consider Shiits to be apostates.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #2 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:12am
 

Quote:
Does that only apply to people who become Muslim then reject it? Or does it apply to all non-Muslims?


Do you know what the word apostasy means?  If you did, you wouldn't be asking such a ridiculous question.

Quote:
What about people who claim to be Muslims but are considered apostates by 'the establishment'? I think you said you consider Shiits to be apostates.


If you can quote me saying that, we might have a discussion on our hands, otherwise it's just hot air, blow it elsewhere.
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freediver
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #3 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:14am
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just answer the questions?
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Gaybriel
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #4 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:19am
 
yeah come on abu! bring back the adab brother  Smiley

I don't know what apostasy is either  Embarrassed  Undecided
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #5 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:34am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:12am:
Do you know what the word apostasy means?  If you did, you wouldn't be asking such a ridiculous question.


Abandonment of one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause?

A total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc. ?

Is the formal religious disaffiliation or abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy. In a technical sense, as used sometimes by sociologists without the pejorative connotations of the word, the term refers to renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, one's former religion. One who commits apostasy is an apostate, or one who apostatizes. The word derives from Greek αποστασία (apostasia), meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing"?

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.
The four major Sunni and the one major Shia Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] They differ on the punishment for a female apostate - some schools calling for death and others for imprisonment. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an,[2] although the jurist al-Shafi'i interpreted the Qu'ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]?

So, what is it, abu, and what does it mean?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #6 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 1:38pm
 

Gaybriel,

Quote:
yeah come on abu! bring back the adab brother


Since you're new here, you can be forgiven for not realising, but freediver just asks the same questions over and over, misquotes Malik and I, as if we're the same unified person, and just continually asks badgering questions. You'll get used to it though, and you'll appreciate why I don't run to answer his every question.

freediver,

Quote:
Wouldn't it be easier to just answer the questions?


The answer to the first question will be apparent if you read the definition Jordan kindly provided for you. The answer to the second question is not going to happen, because it is merely an attempt to cause friction between Malik and myself by fabricating lies about what  I've supposedly said. So if you have a quote from me claiming Shi'a are apostates, bring it. If you don't, cut the crap.

Jordan,

Quote:
So, what is it, abu, and what does it mean?


You just posted a dictionary definition of it (including an Islamic one) and you still don't know what it is?
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freediver
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #7 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:03pm
 
So it only applies to people who become Muslims but then repent?

What if someone is 'born into' a Muslim family and society. Do they ever have to make a conscious choice to be regarded as a Muslim?

What about people who claim to be Muslims but are considered apostates by 'the establishment'?
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Gaybriel
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #8 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:05pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 1:38pm:
Gaybriel,

Quote:
yeah come on abu! bring back the adab brother


Since you're new here, you can be forgiven for not realising, but freediver just asks the same questions over and over, misquotes Malik and I, as if we're the same unified person, and just continually asks badgering questions. You'll get used to it though, and you'll appreciate why I don't run to answer his every question.



lol- sounds like fun!

I can see why your patience wears thin already

I'm just being annoying by trying to bring back peace, love and the mungbeans
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freediver
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #9 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 2:18pm
 
Abu posted this in the sex with animals thread:

Firstly we need to be clear, this appears to be a Shi'a website, and even then it is an Ithna Ashari website, which are a sub-sect of the Shi'a (albeit the largest one). To make a claim about Islam, based on a website by a tiny sect, who are clearly astray from the mainstream is just ridiculous. Please don't use the term "Islam", use the term "Shi'a" if you must, as my religion has nothing to do with this nonsense you're proclaiming.
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jordan484
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #10 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 3:50pm
 
Quote:
You just posted a dictionary definition of it (including an Islamic one) and you still don't know what it is?

No, I know what it is, I want to know what you think it is. Since you are becoming quite obtuse with the question answering of late.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #11 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 3:54pm
 
One of the foundations of effective communication is paraphrasing what the other person said and checking with them to see if you have understood it correctly. The importance of this cannot be overemphasised, as failure to do so is the root cause of most failures to communicate. It is extremely naive to expect to be able to communicate effectively without doing this. It may appear tedious, but it is a lot better than getting to the end, only to realise something is wrong because you misunderstood something at the very beginning.
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #12 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 4:03pm
 
Another foundation is to directly, simply and honestly answer a question.

Do NOT divert or answer another question.
That sort of arrogant dismissive diversionary tactic encourages endless mindless pointless arguments.
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #13 - Jan 20th, 2009 at 2:59pm
 
I notice that Muslims use the term 'reversion' rather than conversion. Does this have any impact on whether someone is considered to have apostasysed?

Does the death penalty only apply to people who become Muslim but then repent?

What if someone is 'born into' a Muslim family and society. Do they ever have to make a conscious choice to be regarded as a Muslim?

What about people who claim to be Muslims but are considered apostates by 'the establishment'?
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Re: Apostasy, treason and stoning
Reply #14 - Jan 21st, 2009 at 3:34pm
 
Abu do you agree that the death penalty for apostasy has no legitimate basis in Islam?
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