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Australian culture - Multi not required (Read 42396 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #105 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:08am
 
pender,

Quote:
yes the colonial occupation of saudi arabia, oman, uae, qatar and iran not to mention yemen are the reasons why these nations rich with oil are so screwed up.


Good point, and funnily enough I've seen very few immigrants from those countries here in Australia. Indicating their people aren't that keen to leave, which might suggest they're not hellholes. Qatar and UAE are both amongst the top ten richest countries in the world, as is Kuwait.

Quote:
oh wait they were not colonized.


Two of the nations you mentioned weren't colonised because they didn't even exist prior to British colonialism. They were created BY British colonialism (Qatar and UAE). The Saudi clan were brought out of exile from Kuwait by the British, to replace Hussein Bin Ali, where they'd been since their previous attempt at a British-backed coup had failed 150 years earlier. British intelligence officers had been working inside the Arabian peninsula since the outbreak of WWI (Never seen Lawrence of Arabia??) to mould the political landscape there. Oman was colonised by Europeans since the 16th century, so I don't know why you claimed it wasn't colonised, and likewise for Yemen, since the 19th. century. you need to go and take a history lesson.

Quote:
how embarrassing for you


Au contraire, it is you who's been left red-faced.

Quote:
are you in fairy land? the english officially supported no one in palestine, however unofficially it is well known that they supported the palestinian state over a jewish one.


Never heard of the Balfour declaration?

...


It would appear that you are the one in fairy land.

Quote:
english opposed jewish migration into palestine over their quota of 250 000 so much that they sunk jewish ships with civilians on them.


This is a very misleading statement, whilst not being untrue. The British took control of Palestine in 1917, from 1917 till the early 1930's the Jewish population of Palestine doubled from around 100,000 to 200,000. The British then LIMITED Jewish immigration, but it still rose to about 650,000 by 1947. Under British rule of Palestine, the Jews who were formerly stable at only around 2% of the population since their expulsion by the Romans 2000 years earlier, became over 1/4 of the population, within a few decades. The only reason the British limited immigration (or is it saturation) is because of the Arab riots during the 1930's, against the massive Jewish immigration that the British had overseen, and because it might have incited opposition amongst the other peaceful Arab nations they were busy establishing.

Also important to note is that 250,000, whilst it might not seem like a large figure to us today, was in fact about 1/5 of the entire population of Palestine at that time.

Quote:
oh and post war the maronites were equal to the muslims in lebanon.


Nonsense. Although it was a Christian majority area when the French first tried to slice it out of Syria, by the time of Lebanese independance in 1943, it was undoubtedly Muslim-majority. The last census was taken in 1932 during the French mandate, and the Maronites, for obvious reasons, have refused to allow any census since then.
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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #106 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:10am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 6:51am:
Classic Liberal wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 1:43am:
yes the colonial occupation of saudi arabia, oman, uae, qatar and iran not to mention yemen are the reasons why these nations rich with oil are so screwed up.

oh wait they were not colonized.

Iran endured the removal of the democratically elected Mossadegh government when Britain and the US overthrew him in 1953 during Operation Ajax to prevent nationalisation of the Iranian oil industry and reinstalled the Shah who became a despot.


be that as it may, the were not colonised nor were they significantly inflenced by the outside world.

even without iran all the islamic fundamentalist gulf states prove my point.
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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #107 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:17am
 
Quote:
be that as it may, the were not colonised nor were they significantly inflenced by the outside world.


So you believe that even though they organised who was ruling the country, that's not significant influence?? Also are you forgetting that the USSR and Britain both occupied Iran for the duration of WWII?
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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #108 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:19am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:08am:
pender,

Quote:
yes the colonial occupation of saudi arabia, oman, uae, qatar and iran not to mention yemen are the reasons why these nations rich with oil are so screwed up.


Good point, and funnily enough I've seen very few immigrants from those countries here in Australia. Indicating their people aren't that keen to leave, which might suggest they're not hellholes. Qatar and UAE are both amongst the top ten richest countries in the world, as is Kuwait.

Quote:
oh wait they were not colonized.


Two of the nations you mentioned weren't colonised because they didn't even exist prior to British colonialism. They were created BY British colonialism (Qatar and UAE). The Saudi clan were brought out of exile from Kuwait by the British, to replace Hussein Bin Ali, where they'd been since their previous attempt at a British-backed coup had failed 150 years earlier. British intelligence officers had been working inside the Arabian peninsula since the outbreak of WWI (Never seen Lawrence of Arabia??) to mould the political landscape there. Oman was colonised by Europeans since the 16th century, so I don't know why you claimed it wasn't colonised, and likewise for Yemen, since the 19th. century. you need to go and take a history lesson.

Quote:
how embarrassing for you


Au contraire, it is you who's been left red-faced.

Quote:
are you in fairy land? the english officially supported no one in palestine, however unofficially it is well known that they supported the palestinian state over a jewish one.


Never heard of the Balfour declaration?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Balfour_declaration_unmarked.jpg


It would appear that you are the one in fairy land.

Quote:
english opposed jewish migration into palestine over their quota of 250 000 so much that they sunk jewish ships with civilians on them.


This is a very misleading statement, whilst not being untrue. The British took control of Palestine in 1917, from 1917 till the early 1930's the Jewish population of Palestine doubled from around 100,000 to 200,000. The British then LIMITED Jewish immigration, but it still rose to about 650,000 by 1947. Under British rule of Palestine, the Jews who were formerly stable at only around 2% of the population since their expulsion by the Romans 2000 years earlier, became over 1/4 of the population, within a few decades. The only reason the British limited immigration (or is it saturation) is because of the Arab riots during the 1930's, against the massive Jewish immigration that the British had overseen, and because it might have incited opposition amongst the other peaceful Arab nations they were busy establishing.

Also important to note is that 250,000, whilst it might not seem like a large figure to us today, was in fact about 1/5 of the entire population of Palestine at that time.

Quote:
oh and post war the maronites were equal to the muslims in lebanon.


Nonsense. Although it was a Christian majority area when the French first tried to slice it out of Syria, by the time of Lebanese independance in 1943, it was undoubtedly Muslim-majority. The last census was taken in 1932 during the French mandate, and the Maronites, for obvious reasons, have refused to allow any census since then.


typical, taking things out of context.

the Balfour thing was in 1917, by the 1920's zionism had become extremly unpopular.

churchill who was one of the few zionists left in parliment stated in 1922.

"In both Houses of Parliament there is growing movement of hostility, against Zionist policy in Palestine, which will be stimulated by recent Northcliffe articles. I do not attach undue importance to this movement, but it is increasingly difficult to meet the argument that it is unfair to ask the British taxpayer, already overwhelmed with taxation, to bear the cost of imposing on Palestine an unpopular policy"

by 1948 with their left wing government, england was extremly opposed to zionism and supported an arab palestinian state.

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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #109 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:38am
 
Classic Liberal wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:10am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 6:51am:
Classic Liberal wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 1:43am:
yes the colonial occupation of saudi arabia, oman, uae, qatar and iran not to mention yemen are the reasons why these nations rich with oil are so screwed up.

oh wait they were not colonized.

Iran endured the removal of the democratically elected Mossadegh government when Britain and the US overthrew him in 1953 during Operation Ajax to prevent nationalisation of the Iranian oil industry and reinstalled the Shah who became a despot.


be that as it may, the were not colonised nor were they significantly inflenced by the outside world.

even without iran all the islamic fundamentalist gulf states prove my point.

Qatar only gained its independence from Britain in 1971.
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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #110 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:53am
 
Quote:
typical, taking things out of context


Typical, answering an entire post of many points, by just picking out one tiny little issue, which you didn't even address sufficiently.

Quote:
the Balfour thing was in 1917, by the 1920's zionism had become extremly unpopular.


The Balfour declaration was made in 1917, and was incorporated into the Sevres peace treaty, at the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire in 1920. The McMahon letter which was a similar promise to the Arabs was made in 1915, so it was even older and obviously less relevant than the Balfour declaration. Anyway, as we've seen from the history, the contents of the Balfour Declaration were what were brought to fruition, not the McMahon letters. And the main factor that permitted it to occur was the mass Jewish immigration that happened under the British mandate, which allowed a sizeable Jewish minority to accumulate in the land. If they had remained less than 10% of the population as they were at the beginning of the mandate, there would've definitely been no state for them.

Zionism didn't really become unpopular publically until the late 1930's when Jewish terrorist groups began assasinating British representatives and they blew up the King David hotel in Jerusalem that was housing the British administration there.

And as Balfour noted when he handed his position over to Curzon:

Quote:
The Four Great Powers [Britain, France, Italy and the United States] are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, and future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land. In my opinion that is right.


No matter how publically unpopular Zionism became later on, the great powers were committed to it, and they took great measures to bring it to fruition, and as we see in our history books, the Zionist state was formed.

Quote:
churchill who was one of the few zionists left in parliment stated in 1922.


You are aware the term Zionist means "Jewish nationalist" right? Don't you find it kind of strange that a Minister of Britain (he wasn't the only one) is a nationalist for another nation? Can you imagine today Kurdish nationalists in our parliament, making decisions about Australias activities in Iraq based on their Kurdish nationalist beliefs?
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Reply #111 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 12:00pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 11th, 2008 at 9:05pm:
Quote:
We should also take charge and stem the inflow of people that don't want to be a part of this culture.


Perhaps we could just add a clause to the form when you immigrate here that says something along the lines of "I hereby solemnly swear not to introduce any cultural practise or trait that could possibly supplant the marginally dominant anglo-saxon Australian culture, of which I wish to be a part, but agree not to saturate with my own culture".


A bit rough around the edges, and needs some refinement but Ok lets use that as a starting point. I'm glad you added the key word supplant, that was the crucial point.


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 11th, 2008 at 9:05pm:
Perhaps we can even introduce a law to force kebab stands to stock meat pies also?


Nope, that won't be necessary. They may not have room for the Baklava then. Besides Most aussies can't even make a descent pie these days.


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 11th, 2008 at 9:05pm:
and make tomato sauce an option, not just garlic sauce or hommous.


I refuse to listen to the belittlement of any condoment.


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 11th, 2008 at 9:05pm:
Also I don't get it. Do they not want to be a part of our culture,
or are they being too much a part of our culture
? If they seclude themselves, they're being segregationist, if they participate and are visible they're 'altering the cultural landscape'.


I think the suggestion is that they want to be TOO MUCH A PART OF THEIR CULTURE OVER HERE. Why come here. I haven't suggested that there aren't benefits from the different cultures being here.

I would also like to be clear that I used angl-saxon from a cultural rather than racial position. I don't believe in racial purity, but there are many that do. I do find it hilarious that racism is considered the whiteman's disease. I've seen it, experienced it and read about it historically from all nations and peoples.


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 11th, 2008 at 9:05pm:
Australia's past might be predominantly anglo-saxon, but it's future certainly is not
. My advice, deal with it, or move abroad. But now that South Africa has been given back to the blacks and none of the Rhodesias exist anymore... I think you'll find it hard to find any more 'white clubs' to suit your tastes.


Why do you say that? That's part of the point to keep it that way. I don't have a problem with that. It's the land and way of life that was fought for Abu, by many members of my family, from WW1 to Vietnam. I don't see why I and my family should have to move. And I don't see why we can't take charge of our country's direction. Is that too difficult a concept?
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« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2008 at 12:12pm by locutius »  

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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #112 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 12:51pm
 
Classic Liberal wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 11:10am:
be that as it may, the were not colonised nor were they significantly inflenced by the outside world.

To be fair, I think having your popular and democratically elected government overthrown by foreign powers and having a puppet regime installed in its place qualifies as being significantly influenced by the outside world, don't you?
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Re: Australian culture - Multi not required
Reply #113 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 1:31pm
 
Quote:
even without iran all the islamic fundamentalist gulf states prove my point.


Just an extra note on this hilarious claim. If there's one thing the gulf states are known for it's certainly not Islamic fundamentalism. In fact they're known for the exact opposite 'Western decadence'.
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Reply #114 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 2:46pm
 
Quote:
I think the suggestion is that they want to be TOO MUCH A PART OF THEIR CULTURE OVER HERE.


Define what exactly you mean by this. How are they 'too much' a part of their culture here? And as far as I am aware, Australian law doesn't prohibit anyone displaying or practising whatever culture they bloody well like, so long as it doesn't break any laws.

Quote:
Why come here.


I think a lot of immigrants come here as economic or political refugees. They don't come for the fine culture. Besides, I don't know about other immigrants, but amongst the Muslim community a lot of them were born here, their parents having come over the last 30 or so years. So they didn't make any conscious choice to come here. Does that mean they should be prevented from being 'too much' a part of their own culture?

Quote:
I do find it hilarious that racism is considered the whiteman's disease. I've seen it, experienced it and read about it historically from all nations and peoples.


Agreed. It's definitely not exclusive to white people. However when you talk about preserving the dominance of anglo-saxon culture, you must realise it will be considered somewhat as if you're calling for white supremacy. Australia is simply not an anglo-saxon country anymore, it past that stage some time ago, and you must deal with this and move on. Each generation of Australians is becoming more and more multicultural, and less and less of the populace claim only anglo-saxon heritage, or even only European heritage. Now there's two choices, one is to accept this and get on with life, and make peace with this fact, or two, form a National Socialist style party and work to reverse it, eliminating by brutal force any non-anglo aspects of Australian culture.

Quote:
Why do you say that?


Because the facts show it's becoming less and less anglo-centric, and the trend is increasing. When I was a child, I had at most 1 or 2 people who I recognised as 'foreigners' in my class, during my parents time, they pretty much had none. And during my kids time, they have a large % of their class as non-anglos. Of course this is affected somewhat by the demographics of the specific area one lives in, but it's becoming more and more widespread. As I said, either get over it, or expose your Nazi tendancies and work to reverse it.

Quote:
That's part of the point to keep it that way. I don't have a problem with that. It's the land and way of life that was fought for Abu, by many members of my family, from WW1 to Vietnam


Our previous generations were deluded into fighting wars that had pretty much no bearing on us at all. The invasion of Gallipoli for instance is one of the greatest disasters in our history, and our 'mates' the Poms sent us to our certain deaths as decoys no less, fighting an empire that had nothing at all to do with us. It was all about cementing European hegemony over the Muslim world, and we were the lambs to the slaughter. WWII was obviously a different case, as there was an immediate threat to us, but Vietnam, again was another disaster, in which Australians died for no good reason at all. Iraq and Afghanistan today are even less relevant to us, and are just a result of our former PM's subservience to his masters in Washington (I can't quite put it as gracefully as Mark Latham did).

So in most cases, we've fought to keep other people's lands the way they want them, nothing at all to do with us or our way of life.

Quote:
I don't see why I and my family should have to move.


I'm not seriously suggesting you should move. I'm just stating that if you don't like how 'unwhite' Australia is becoming, then maybe it's not the place for you.

Quote:
And I don't see why we can't take charge of our country's direction. Is that too difficult a concept?


The horse has already bolted, bit too late to close the gate.
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Reply #115 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 3:58pm
 
Congratulations you have reached 'Godwin's Law', would you like to try for Numberwang.

Grin Seriously Abu, no wonder you inspire such ferocity here. Your polarising solutions show a lack of imagination, so you offer up supplication or nazism as the ONLY two options. Nothing in between? Really? And by default, I need to be classed as one or the other? The brave supplicant or the cowardly nazi. The polish of such kindergarten logic and insult is blinding. Cool

I am afraid I am NOT one of the trendy apologists for the triumphs and crimes of the 'West' although I agreed with the recognition of harms done to the Aboriginal people. I also agree with FD in paying back stolen wages.

Australian culture is a bit of a blurry thing to come to grips with and this has a lot to do with the wide range of peoples that have come here over quite a long time now. It is hard to find definitive examples of dress, song and cuisine but I think that this country had evolved a personality that as I was growing up in the 70's thought was a pretty good one.

If you read what I have said properly, you will see that I have not argued for stagnation but rather for refinement. But the core ethos of a fair go, being laid back and mateship (amongst others) remains.

I have also argued against the creation of these little suburbian micro-nations. I do think they encourage an insular and fortress mentality. I also admitted to not having a amicable solution. But maybe I should just see it in simple black and white, like you are suggesting.

Your example of people not asking to be born here?? Who does? Just that some of us are born into families who love it here, who love their country and feel lucky to be here. It is unfortunate that the desire to direct and guide the national personality is so abhorrent to you and the psuedo-tolerant.
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« Last Edit: Sep 15th, 2008 at 2:04pm by locutius »  

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Reply #116 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 4:35pm
 
Quote:
you offer up supplication or nazism as the ONLY two options. Nothing in between? Really?


Actually there's really only one choice, accept multiculturalism and get on with your life. I used the "Embrace Nazism and reverse it" to show how ridiculous your claims about turning back the clock of multiculturalism are. Australia has come much too far down the path of multiculturalism to turn back now, and the only possible solution for reversing or even halting it would be to get rid of all non-anglos. As non-anglos and their non-anglo cultures aren't just going to die out and blend in as  you might hope. Although they will most likely be 'watered down' over time, they will at the same time contribute to and alter Australian culture, and sometimes in ways you might not want. That's life, as I've said enough times, get on with it.

Then you have Islam, which is a religion as well as a culture, which is unlikely to be watered down, and will just continue to grow. Obviously non-Muslims would be alarmed at this, but if you want a free society where people are free to believe as they please, then you just have to accept this also.

Quote:
But the core ethos of a fair go, being laid back and mateship (amongst others) remains.


A fair go if you happen to be fortunate enough to be anglo. Being laid back (lazy) is definitely an Aussie cultural trait. Mateship is just laughable. Howard was really desperate when he tried to define this as an Australian value. Like all the other people in the world couldn't care less about their fellow compatriots, only us Aussies have mateship. And actually if you travel around the world, you'll find most other cultures have a lot more 'mateship' than what we have here. Probably due in part to the fact they've lived together for 1000's of years, or because they're so crammed into such small spaces, I dunno.. but mateship isn't really an Aussie value if you ask me. I guess it's a nice filler though, if you can't find any others at the time. In the countries I've travelled to (all Arab countries), the sense of community spirit and neighbourliness is much stronger than it is here. Hundreds of people all living in the same street will generally know each other quite well (many of them even inter-related) will pitch in to help out the less fortunate ones etc. Sure they have their problems, doesn't everyone? That's the point though, what you're claiming as something uniquely Australian isn't, it's uniquely human perhaps.

Quote:
I have also argued against the creation of these little suburbian micro-nations.


It's natural for people to want to be close to those they're familiar with. If you moved to a foreign country, and there was other Aussies living there, wouldn't you like to be close with them? And feel more comfortable socialising with them, especially if the language there was foreign? Also you gotta take into consideration they might not often feel welcomed in more anglo dominated areas, the ethos of a fair go and mateship aren't always extended to newcomers and they feel alienated amongst the general population, this can often cause them to want to 'stick together'.

Quote:
But maybe I should just see it in simple black and white, like you are suggesting.


Well you do have to come to terms with the fact it exists, and that it's playing an ever increasing contributing role in our future.

Quote:
Your example of pueople not asking to be born here?? Who does?


You asked why did they come here. I merely responded that many did not 'come', they're born here. They are native born Australians, and have about as much right here as you or me, especially if you compare us all to the Aboriginals. How much of a difference is 30 years or 150 years when it's compared to 40,000 years? Not much.

Quote:
Just that some of us are born into families who love it here, who love their country and feel lucky to be here.


So you don't think the children of immigrants born here love the country? And don't feel lucky to be here? I personally don't think you knnow too many immigrants.. do you?
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Reply #117 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 4:53pm
 
In 1945 Labour Foreign Minister, Ernest Bevin, decided to persist with existing policy of opposition to a Jewish state, due to the continued importance of cordial Anglo-Arab relations to British strategic concerns throughout the region. Britain directly controlled Transjordan, Sudan, Kuwait, the Arab Emirates, Bahrain and the Yemen. It had treaties of alliance with Iraq and Egypt.

The Second World War left all surviving Jews (the minority) in central Europe as refugees, and many opted to move to Palestine. Growing illegal immigration caused the British to take counter measures against the Jewish community and in June 1946 the British arrested thousands of Jews, including the leadership of the Jewish Agency, holding them without trial.

In September 1947 the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) reported in favour of partition in Palestine, a suggestion ratified by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947.[20] The result envisaged the creation of two states, one Arab and one Jewish, with the city of Jerusalem to be under the direct administration of the United Nations.

The General Assembly resolution required Britain to allow unrestricted Jewish migration into a port on the coast, however Britain refused to implement the resolution and continued to incarcerate Jewish migrants in Cyprus.

Concerned that implementation of partition would severely damage Anglo-Arab/Muslim relations, Britain resolved to withdraw without cooperating with the UN resolution (which required the British to slowly hand control over to the UN). The date of departure was fixed for August 1948, yet final evacuation was completed by May 1948. After its evacuation Britain continued to hold Jews of "fighting age" on Cyprus until March 1949.

On May 29, 1948 the British initiated United Nations Security Council Resolution 50 and declared an arms embargo on the region. However Soviet-controlled Czechoslovakia violated it. This was critical in allowing the Jewish state to acquire military hardware to match that available to the invading Arab states.

The English did their best to make the jews lose the war 1948, but much to their dismay the Jews won, halting the Egyptians and Jordanians. It was not untill Israel actually defeated the arab states that the English even recognized them as a state.

Interestingly when Jordan annexed the west bank and egypt annexed the gaza strip neither government persued the creation of a Palestinian state...




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Reply #118 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 4:55pm
 
So you don't think the children of immigrants born here love the country? And don't feel lucky to be here? I personally don't think you knnow too many immigrants.. do you?

i live in merrylands, i know many arabs and people of various cultures. the only sons of immigrants i have ever heard say they hate australia and their old country is better were arabs.
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Reply #119 - Sep 12th, 2008 at 4:58pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 12th, 2008 at 1:31pm:
Quote:
even without iran all the islamic fundamentalist gulf states prove my point.


Just an extra note on this hilarious claim. If there's one thing the gulf states are known for it's certainly not Islamic fundamentalism. In fact they're known for the exact opposite 'Western decadence'.


to me an educated observer, any government which cuts the arm off a theif or punishes a woman for getting raped is a nation which is fundamentalist
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