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Poll Poll
Question: Link fines to income.

yes    
  8 (80.0%)
no    
  2 (20.0%)




Total votes: 10
« Created by: DILLIGAF on: Sep 13th, 2008 at 10:35pm »

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Link fines to income. What do you reckon? (Read 6437 times)
locutius
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Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:09pm
 
A $100,000 Speeding Fine??


HELSINKI (Reuters) - A senior executive of the world's largest mobile phone maker Nokia is appealing a record $103,600 fine for speeding because his income has dropped, Finnish media and officials said Monday.


Millionaire and Harley Davidson enthusiast Anssi Vanjoki was caught racing his motorbike down a Helsinki street in October at 47 mph in a 31 mph zone, the newspaper Ilta-Sanomat reported.


Unlike in many other countries, Finnish traffic fines vary according to the offender's average income.


The fine was based on Vanjoki's 1999 income which was boosted by big options sales. But Vanjoki's income dropped drastically last year as Nokia's share price fell alongside other tech shares, making option sales uneconomical.


Vanjoki's fine is believed to be the largest ever traffic penalty in Finland, beating a fine of more than $71,000 handed down to Internet millionaire Jaakko Rytsola and one of $31,200 given to Vanjoki's colleague, Nokia president Pekka Ala-Pietila.

Taken from (http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200201/msg00132.html)

I say yep. All for it.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #1 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:24pm
 
Sounds like a reasonable idea, though the paperwork could be cumbersome. I'm not sure how you would deal with speed camera's. You would just pay some unemployed person to say they were driving.
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locutius
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #2 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:24pm:
I'm not sure how you would deal with speed camera's. You would just pay some unemployed person to say they were driving.


Very good point FD. Is there such a thing as inherited responsibility? I don't know.

The onus of proof would be on the owner to prove that it was not them driving. The penalties for perjury could also be made so severe that such a proposition become unattractive. Police catch most crims because someone could not keep their mouth shut.

Interestingly, I have thought that if a person brings another to trial on false or vindictive charges which are proven to be false or vindictive, then the accuser's penalty should be AT LEAST equivalent to the penalty the defendant was facing, as well as all court costs etc.

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #3 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:46pm
 
The onus of proof would be on the owner to prove that it was not them driving.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #4 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:48pm
 
Insane.

We have lots of exemptions for low paid and unemployed, a fine should be dependant on the seriousness of the offence, not the wealth of the offender.

A fair tax system is all that is required to have the wealthy contribute fairly.

I hardly think it fair that a guy who most probably has worked 80 hour plus weeks for decades, and contributed so greatly to the society should be punished for it, while the unemployed guy who has never worked, and never intends to, gets off for doing the same thing because he is poor, that is just wrong.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #5 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 3:23pm
 
taken from(http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/Parlment/HansArt.nsf/V3Key/LC19970923013)

JOHN SINGLETON SPEEDING OFFENCE PENALTY

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: My question without notice is directed to the Attorney General. Is it a fact that John Singleton - a prominent advertising media millionaire - was recently charged by the New South Wales Police Service for driving at 165 kilometres an hour on a New South Wales road? Is it a fact that a magistrate treated Mr Singleton as a first offender and recorded no conviction, fine or loss of points? As this amazing decision has clearly undermined the road safety campaign in New South Wales, will the Attorney General conduct a review of this case and request the Director of Public Prosecutions to appeal the decision?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: As I understand it, the decision of the court - that is, the learned magistrate, Mr Williams - in Mr Singleton’s case was to dismiss the charges under section 556A of the Crimes Act 1900 and Mr Singleton was ordered to pay court costs. Mr Singleton has had, as I understand it, four minor infringements in more than 40 years of driving. Section 556A of the Crimes Act allows a sentencing judge or magistrate, when an offence has been proved, to dismiss the charge or to place the offender on a bond, having regard to the character, antecedents and mental condition of the offender; to the nature of the offence; to the extenuating circumstances under which the offence was committed; or to any other matter the court thinks it proper to consider. In other words, judicial officers have a broad discretion when they find the charges proved and they can dismiss them pursuant to section 556A of the Crimes Act.

Gee I really hate to side with Fred, but.............
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #6 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 3:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:46pm:
The onus of proof would be on the owner to prove that it was not them driving.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?


That's what happens now isn't it? This is not a random charge that is laid on someone, it is the automatic fine sent to the owner of said vehicle.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #7 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 3:53pm
 
Along with the fine you get a form to fill out in case you weren't the driver.

Mozz, you are kind of missing the point. It is not about wealth distribution. It is about the effectiveness of the deterrent. Is a $500 fine going to deter a billionaire from speeding as much as it will deter someone on minimum wages? Can you genuinely say that a billionaire has been effectively punished for putting other people's lives at risk after paying a $500 fine? You can argue that a day in jail is close to an equal punishement no matter who you are, but you certainly can't make that argument for a fixed monetary fine.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #8 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 3:55pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:48pm:
........... a fine should be dependant on the seriousness of the offence, not the wealth of the offender.


I have sympathy for what you are saying mozza, but ultimalety a fine should be a deterrent. A $400 fine is hardly that for someone who earns $1 000 000 a year.


mozzaok wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:48pm:
A fair tax system is all that is required to have the wealthy contribute fairly.


I agree with you completely, but breaking the law puts them outside of their normal tax obligation. I'm sure your not saying that someone can be a crook as long as they are paying their fair share of tax.


mozzaok wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:48pm:
I hardly think it fair that a guy who most probably has worked 80 hour plus weeks for decades, and contributed so greatly to the society should be punished for it, while the unemployed guy who has never worked, and never intends to, gets off for doing the same thing because he is poor, that is just wrong.


But he is not being punished for being successfull. On the contrary, he has been compensated for his hard work. He is being punished for breaking the law, and punished in such a way that the consequences are FELT. Also I never said that the unemployed or poor should get off. I would never suggest that.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #9 - Aug 26th, 2008 at 4:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 3:53pm:
Along with the fine you get a form to fill out in case you weren't the driver.



I assume that this form is along the lines of a Stat. Dec. Therefore legally binding and if proven to be false is the equivalent to perjury.

As a Stat. Dec, this would suffice as your required onus of proof as it stands in our present system.

I don't have a solution to counter act cheating. In the future I am sure there are technologies that could be implimented. In the meantime, make the penalty for perjury ridiculously severe. Why show retraint for perjury that has no noble incentive other than to skip a fine.
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« Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2008 at 4:46pm by locutius »  

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #10 - Aug 28th, 2008 at 8:14pm
 
I am in favour of a sliding scale based on income for traffic fines.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #11 - Sep 13th, 2008 at 12:04am
 
why not just improve transportation infrastructure and get rid of speed limits altogether on major motorways like the germans did

who cares if people speed
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #12 - Sep 13th, 2008 at 10:35pm
 
Sounds like a good idea to me. Its totally fair.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #13 - Sep 14th, 2008 at 8:53am
 
The pooints taken off a license is equitable.
A $100 fine to someone who is unemployed is enormous.
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Reply #14 - Sep 14th, 2008 at 10:07am
 
I got arrested and charged once and the cops write down what you earn and your expenses/bills on the charge sheet and that gets presented to the court, maybe for the magistrate to take in to account of the sort of money you have available.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #15 - Sep 14th, 2008 at 3:52pm
 
I think it is a rediculous idea. People dont get large incomes just because their boss thinks they are nice people. A large income is usually running alongside a huge responsibility or very long hours away from their families.

Maybe for repeat offences, but I don't that it is fair.

Bob is a dole bludging junkie who is doing 80kph in a 60 zone because his dealer is about to run out, so we will just fine him $150, then go on to spend thousands to recover the money when he doesn't pay it, But because John has worked hard all his life to build a business that is now earning him $150,000 pa and supporting 8 employees families, he can have a $700 fine for exactly the same offence.
Where does it end, charge him more for groceries, fuel, clothes?? He already pays a much higher tax rate.
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« Last Edit: Sep 14th, 2008 at 4:00pm by merou »  

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #16 - Sep 14th, 2008 at 4:24pm
 
Merou, nothing you said has not already been addressed. But fair enough, you disagree.

Whether someone skips their on their fine is irrelevant. The cost of recovery should be added to the fine, that can be recovered by money, community service or jail.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #17 - Sep 14th, 2008 at 5:55pm
 
locutius wrote on Sep 14th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
Merou, nothing you said has not already been addressed. But fair enough, you disagree.

Whether someone skips their on their fine is irrelevant. The cost of recovery should be added to the fine, that can be recovered by money, community service or jail.


Jail cost taxpayers more money again, community service is just crap, most of the projects they do are not even worth doing.

It is just not a fair proposal.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #18 - Sep 14th, 2008 at 6:04pm
 
easel wrote on Sep 14th, 2008 at 10:07am:
I got arrested and charged once and the cops write down what you earn and your expenses/bills on the charge sheet and that gets presented to the court, maybe for the magistrate to take in to account of the sort of money you have available.


That doesn't sound like the process for a minor traffic infringement?
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Reply #19 - Sep 14th, 2008 at 7:50pm
 
Mugshot, fingerprints, king hit (twice), food and water withheld, 9 hours in a cell, paddy wagon thrashed over gutters, train tracks, sudden stoppages at speed etc etc.

All for 0.06.

And then the cops whinge about people hating them when they 'help us'.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #20 - Sep 18th, 2008 at 11:47pm
 
lol i've never seen a country more wussified over drink driving than australia

we consume the fourth largest amount of beer per capita on the planet yet we all turn into giant pussies whenever somebody gets behind the wheel with a beer

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #21 - Sep 19th, 2008 at 8:19am
 
Love my beer, but can't put it much better than the ads. If you drink drive your a bloody idiot.

If you kill someone while drink driving, should be 2nd degree murder.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #22 - Sep 19th, 2008 at 11:00am
 
2nd degree murder? That's a bit steep, don't you think. That would indicate a level of premeditation to kill someone while drinking. Wouldn't manslaughter be more appropriate which is what I believe should be the default charge for all deaths caused by DUI? Mostly people are charged with the lesser offence of "reckless driving causing death" which is a BS charge.
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Reply #23 - Sep 19th, 2008 at 2:26pm
 
Acid, It may be a bit steep. I thought 1st degree murder was for premeditated. And I believe that 2nd degree is now manslaughter. I was showing my age from my days of watching Homicide.  Smiley

Maybe again a sliding scale. But someone who has sat there pouring piss down their throat then jumps in their car and kills someone, especially a child will get no sympathetic ear from me. Stupid and selfish. I can promise that if it was my child jail would be the safest place for them. And unfortunately I suspect that I am no so enlightened a creature that I would ever forgive or be satisfied.

I agree completely with you that Quote:
"reckless driving causing death" which is a BS charge.



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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #24 - Sep 19th, 2008 at 4:58pm
 
I'm not a law expert but my understanding of the grading of the murder charge is as follows:

1st degree murder - Premeditated murder. This means the person planned to do it. If the killer bought a gun just for the crime, for instance, or if it is murder for hire.
2nd degree murder - Intentional murder, but not premeditated. A man comes home and finds his wife in bed with another man and in a fit of rage he kills them. This is considered a less serious crime because it was not planned.
3rd degree murder (or manslaughter)- Accidental murder, negligance. This is like getting in an accident with your car where someone gets killed. You didn't mean to kill anyone, it was only through negligence.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #25 - Sep 22nd, 2008 at 5:41pm
 
A large income is usually running alongside a huge responsibility or very long hours away from their families.

So what? Does that give them the right to speed and put people's lives at risk and recieve a what is from their perspective a meaningless penalty? Should the rich get away with crimes merely because they are rich and must therefor contribute more to society? Don't forget that defaulting on these fines can lead to jail time.

Bob is a dole bludging junkie who is doing 80kph in a 60 zone because his dealer is about to run out, so we will just fine him $150, then go on to spend thousands to recover the money when he doesn't pay it, But because John has worked hard all his life to build a business that is now earning him $150,000 pa and supporting 8 employees families, he can have a $700 fine for exactly the same offence.
Where does it end, charge him more for groceries, fuel, clothes?? He already pays a much higher tax rate.


Your argument seems to consist or introducing red herrings. Not all poor people are dole bludging junkies. If you don't like the dole, vote against it. If you don't like junkies, vote for tougher drug penalties. If you don't like people skipping on fines, vote for greater penalties for that too. But don't try to punish all poor people so you can get at junkies indirectly.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #26 - Oct 4th, 2008 at 1:31pm
 
There will be enough fines when this "climate change con" gets under way to last several life times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBSViLUDOkE
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Reply #27 - Oct 4th, 2008 at 2:04pm
 
There's no need to spam the forum with it liko. Once is more than sufficient.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #28 - Oct 4th, 2008 at 4:21pm
 
locutius wrote on Aug 26th, 2008 at 2:09pm:
A $100,000 Speeding Fine??


HELSINKI (Reuters) - A senior executive of the world's largest mobile phone maker Nokia is appealing a record $103,600 fine for speeding because his income has dropped, Finnish media and officials said Monday.


Millionaire and Harley Davidson enthusiast Anssi Vanjoki was caught racing his motorbike down a Helsinki street in October at 47 mph in a 31 mph zone, the newspaper Ilta-Sanomat reported.


Unlike in many other countries, Finnish traffic fines vary according to the offender's average income.


The fine was based on Vanjoki's 1999 income which was boosted by big options sales. But Vanjoki's income dropped drastically last year as Nokia's share price fell alongside other tech shares, making option sales uneconomical.


Vanjoki's fine is believed to be the largest ever traffic penalty in Finland, beating a fine of more than $71,000 handed down to Internet millionaire Jaakko Rytsola and one of $31,200 given to Vanjoki's colleague, Nokia president Pekka Ala-Pietila.

Taken from (http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200201/msg00132.html)

I say yep. All for it.


Yes. Do it.

One of the best proposals I've heard in a long time.

I can't believe they hand out the same fines with someone who earns 1,000,000 a year compared to someone who makes 30,000. It should be a set percentage taken out of their income.

Good luck making people admit to their income though.
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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #29 - Oct 5th, 2008 at 1:30pm
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Sep 19th, 2008 at 4:58pm:
I'm not a law expert but my understanding of the grading of the murder charge is as follows:

1st degree murder - Premeditated murder. This means the person planned to do it. If the killer bought a gun just for the crime, for instance, or if it is murder for hire.
2nd degree murder - Intentional murder, but not premeditated. A man comes home and finds his wife in bed with another man and in a fit of rage he kills them. This is considered a less serious crime because it was not planned.
3rd degree murder (or manslaughter)- Accidental murder, negligance. This is like getting in an accident with your car where someone gets killed. You didn't mean to kill anyone, it was only through negligence.


You have been watching too much TV from the USA.
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