Australian Politics Forum - Link fines to income. What do you reckon?

locutius

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Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:09pm

A $100,000 Speeding Fine??

HELSINKI (Reuters) - A senior executive of the world's largest mobile phone maker Nokia is appealing a record $103,600 fine for speeding because his income has dropped, Finnish media and officials said Monday.

Millionaire and Harley Davidson enthusiast Anssi Vanjoki was caught racing his motorbike down a Helsinki street in October at 47 mph in a 31 mph zone, the newspaper Ilta-Sanomat reported.

Unlike in many other countries, Finnish traffic fines vary according to the offender's average income.

The fine was based on Vanjoki's 1999 income which was boosted by big options sales. But Vanjoki's income dropped drastically last year as Nokia's share price fell alongside other tech shares, making option sales uneconomical.

Vanjoki's fine is believed to be the largest ever traffic penalty in Finland, beating a fine of more than $71,000 handed down to Internet millionaire Jaakko Rytsola and one of $31,200 given to Vanjoki's colleague, Nokia president Pekka Ala-Pietila.

Taken from (http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200201/msg00132.html)

I say yep. All for it.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47480 At my desk.	Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon? Reply #1 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:24pm Sounds like a reasonable idea, though the paperwork could be cumbersome. I'm not sure how you would deal with speed camera's. You would just pay some unemployed person to say they were driving.
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locutius

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #2 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:42pm

freediver wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:24pm:

I'm not sure how you would deal with speed camera's. You would just pay some unemployed person to say they were driving.

Very good point FD. Is there such a thing as inherited responsibility? I don't know.

The onus of proof would be on the owner to prove that it was not them driving. The penalties for perjury could also be made so severe that such a proposition become unattractive. Police catch most crims because someone could not keep their mouth shut.

Interestingly, I have thought that if a person brings another to trial on false or vindictive charges which are proven to be false or vindictive, then the accuser's penalty should be AT LEAST equivalent to the penalty the defendant was facing, as well as all court costs etc.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47480 At my desk.	Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon? Reply #3 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:46pm The onus of proof would be on the owner to prove that it was not them driving. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
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mozzaok

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #4 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:48pm

Insane.

We have lots of exemptions for low paid and unemployed, a fine should be dependant on the seriousness of the offence, not the wealth of the offender.

A fair tax system is all that is required to have the wealthy contribute fairly.

I hardly think it fair that a guy who most probably has worked 80 hour plus weeks for decades, and contributed so greatly to the society should be punished for it, while the unemployed guy who has never worked, and never intends to, gets off for doing the same thing because he is poor, that is just wrong.

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locutius

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #5 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 3:23pm

taken from(http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/Parlment/HansArt.nsf/V3Key/LC19970923013)

JOHN SINGLETON SPEEDING OFFENCE PENALTY

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: My question without notice is directed to the Attorney General. Is it a fact that John Singleton - a prominent advertising media millionaire - was recently charged by the New South Wales Police Service for driving at 165 kilometres an hour on a New South Wales road? Is it a fact that a magistrate treated Mr Singleton as a first offender and recorded no conviction, fine or loss of points? As this amazing decision has clearly undermined the road safety campaign in New South Wales, will the Attorney General conduct a review of this case and request the Director of Public Prosecutions to appeal the decision?

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: As I understand it, the decision of the court - that is, the learned magistrate, Mr Williams - in Mr Singleton’s case was to dismiss the charges under section 556A of the Crimes Act 1900 and Mr Singleton was ordered to pay court costs. Mr Singleton has had, as I understand it, four minor infringements in more than 40 years of driving. Section 556A of the Crimes Act allows a sentencing judge or magistrate, when an offence has been proved, to dismiss the charge or to place the offender on a bond, having regard to the character, antecedents and mental condition of the offender; to the nature of the offence; to the extenuating circumstances under which the offence was committed; or to any other matter the court thinks it proper to consider. In other words, judicial officers have a broad discretion when they find the charges proved and they can dismiss them pursuant to section 556A of the Crimes Act.

Gee I really hate to side with Fred, but.............

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locutius

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #6 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 3:26pm

freediver wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:46pm:

The onus of proof would be on the owner to prove that it was not them driving.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

That's what happens now isn't it? This is not a random charge that is laid on someone, it is the automatic fine sent to the owner of said vehicle.

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freediver

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #7 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 3:53pm

Along with the fine you get a form to fill out in case you weren't the driver.

Mozz, you are kind of missing the point. It is not about wealth distribution. It is about the effectiveness of the deterrent. Is a $500 fine going to deter a billionaire from speeding as much as it will deter someone on minimum wages? Can you genuinely say that a billionaire has been effectively punished for putting other people's lives at risk after paying a $500 fine? You can argue that a day in jail is close to an equal punishement no matter who you are, but you certainly can't make that argument for a fixed monetary fine.

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locutius

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #8 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 3:55pm

mozzaok wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:48pm:

........... a fine should be dependant on the seriousness of the offence, not the wealth of the offender.

I have sympathy for what you are saying mozza, but ultimalety a fine should be a deterrent. A $400 fine is hardly that for someone who earns $1 000 000 a year.

mozzaok wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:48pm:

A fair tax system is all that is required to have the wealthy contribute fairly.

I agree with you completely, but breaking the law puts them outside of their normal tax obligation. I'm sure your not saying that someone can be a crook as long as they are paying their fair share of tax.

mozzaok wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 2:48pm:

I hardly think it fair that a guy who most probably has worked 80 hour plus weeks for decades, and contributed so greatly to the society should be punished for it, while the unemployed guy who has never worked, and never intends to, gets off for doing the same thing because he is poor, that is just wrong.

But he is not being punished for being successfull. On the contrary, he has been compensated for his hard work. He is being punished for breaking the law, and punished in such a way that the consequences are FELT. Also I never said that the unemployed or poor should get off. I would never suggest that.

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locutius

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Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon?
Reply #9 - Aug 26^th, 2008 at 4:17pm

freediver wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 3:53pm:

Along with the fine you get a form to fill out in case you weren't the driver.

I assume that this form is along the lines of a Stat. Dec. Therefore legally binding and if proven to be false is the equivalent to perjury.

As a Stat. Dec, this would suffice as your required onus of proof as it stands in our present system.

I don't have a solution to counter act cheating. In the future I am sure there are technologies that could be implimented. In the meantime, make the penalty for perjury ridiculously severe. Why show retraint for perjury that has no noble incentive other than to skip a fine.

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« Last Edit: Aug 26^th, 2008 at 4:46pm by locutius »

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RecFisher Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 347	Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon? Reply #10 - Aug 28^th, 2008 at 8:14pm I am in favour of a sliding scale based on income for traffic fines.
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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5197 Gender:	Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon? Reply #11 - Sep 13^th, 2008 at 12:04am why not just improve transportation infrastructure and get rid of speed limits altogether on major motorways like the germans did who cares if people speed
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DILLIGAF Gold Member Offline Posts: 1259 The greens are red Gender:	Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon? Reply #12 - Sep 13^th, 2008 at 10:35pm Sounds like a good idea to me. Its totally fair.
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39523 Gender:	Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon? Reply #13 - Sep 14^th, 2008 at 8:53am The pooints taken off a license is equitable. A $100 fine to someone who is unemployed is enormous.
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easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Re: Link fines to income. What do you reckon? Reply #14 - Sep 14^th, 2008 at 10:07am I got arrested and charged once and the cops write down what you earn and your expenses/bills on the charge sheet and that gets presented to the court, maybe for the magistrate to take in to account of the sort of money you have available.
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Poll
Question: Link fines to income.
yes 8 (80.0%) no 2 (20.0%) Total votes: 10 « Created by: DILLIGAF on: Sep 13^th, 2008 at 10:35pm »